Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

No your right i took him out when i was thinking of Sarries as finalists. Forgot to put him back in.

However i do think we might get a surprise inclusion of Cown Dickie on the tour aswell.

Leicester are out which means Hartley will definitely miss the 1st test and Youngs is staying home anyway.

But England will have Manu and Youngs, for the tour and possibly Allen and Crane for the Baa Baas.

Did anyone who watched the game notice how a player without any supposed flair or support in the int. forums came on and suddenly Saints looked much more dangerous and turned the game around.

Well done Lee Dickson, the most UNDER RATED player in the AP.

Lee Dickson is primarily a scrum half. I never understood how Kahn was getting named as the best scrum half in the world as his basic scrum half skills are poor (but he makes breaks so yippee).

Dickson is a proper scrum half who can pass and everything. Good variation with Care/Youngs he just shouldn't be brought on for the sake of it ).

But it'll be good to have Tuilagi, with not having Burrell. Good having Slater/Kitchener, with not having Lawes.

Could we see Tait come in for the Baa Baa game? i thought he played well last night in defense, not as good in attack though.

Foden missing, Brown or Goode missing...with May and Watson potentially going on tour it would be a good 'in' for him. He was excellent in defence. Did Tigers have much ball to attack with? But some of his cover defence was outstanding.

Second half they didn't, can't remember about the first one. I think he made a couple of good runs, i think he's similar to Brown in that regard - Brown is better at staying on his feet though.

Dickson played well in the last 20 of one of the 6Ns iirc. Pretty sure it was him I noted as providing a very good service from the base which got the backs moving with the defence a little further off.

Just a shame the whole tour looks a complete pig's arse.

Right, so Sarries Saints final. 1st test 23?

1. Marler
2. Webber (Ward)
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury
6.
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12.
13. Tuilagi
14. Yarde
15. Brown

16. Ward (?)
17.
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20.
21. Youngs
22. Cipriani
23. Watson

With Ford at 10, I think you need a bit of muscle at 12, perhaps Manu at inside and Daly at 13. I have seen Manu play 12 for Tigers, he is just as effective there.

Still no definitive news either way on Webber but could really do with him getting fit with both Hartley and Youngs definitely out of the 1st Test. Would also be a huge shame for Webber himself as he's performed really well when fit and deserves the chance.

Hammer - Lancaster will probably be looking at Johnson for Blindside with Haskell or Kvesic (cue the complaints) on the bench. Given his lack of versatility and the presence of Robshaw, I expect Wallace will struggle to get a look in. I believe Garvey is injured but Fearns versatility could see him sneak onto the plane.

I accept Johnson isn't a popular or fashionable pick but one thing he does offer is a similar replacement for Wood with a huge work rate and solid line-out option (though not quite as strong as Wood in either facet). He also offers pace in support play and good hands in attack - an area of the game where he exceeds Wood IMO.

Mullan will almost certainly take the 17 shirt.

At 12 Eastmond would be the next cab off the rank as he's been in the EPS this season. The other option would likely be Allen who is deserving of a chance if it arises IMO. Both have played alongside Ford, as has Tuilagi, which will also be a boost.

On the bench I'd be interested in seeing Daly or Tait on the bench ahead of Watson for a little bit more versatility.

1.Marler
2.Webber - Ward if he isn't fit
3.Wilson
4.Launchbury
5.Attwood
6.Johnson or Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Ford

11.Yarde
12.Eastmond or Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.May
15.Brown

16.Ward - If he's starting... LCD   
17.Mullan
18.Thomas
19.Slater
20.Haskell or Johnson - Expect whoever doesn't start may bench
21.Youngs
22.Cipriani or Burns - Will be interesting to see how Lancaster leans given form
23.Tait, Daly or Watson

Trying to workout what we'll see from Bomber rather than what I'd pick. Nicely for an England fan there aren't too many selections I can foresee that would upset me though. If Burns slips onto the bench on current form it would be a bit annoying but other than that it seems alright if a bit flimsy in places given the scheduling debacle.

Given the number of players missing I think the remaining options are a testament to how Lancaster and co have built this squad.

The hooker situation is worrying though...

Guys missing for the first test who would likely challenge the first test 23 if fit:

1.Corbisiero
2.Hartley and Youngs
3.Cole
4.
5.Lawes
6.Croft
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

9.Dickson
10.Farrell

11.Ashton
12.Twelvetrees
13.Burrell
14.Wade and Nowell
15.Foden

king_carlos wrote:Guys missing for the first test who would likely challenge the first test 23 if fit:

1.
2. Hartley or Youngs
3. Cole
4.
5. Lawes
6. Wood or Croft
7.
8. Vunipola

9.
10. Farrell

11.
12. Twelvetrees or Barritt
13.
14. Wade or Nowell
15. Brown potentially, or Goode

Edited so that it's now the players who would almost certainly be first choice, and their replacement if both are out. 2, 6, 12 and 15 are the ones where we're looking a bit thin for the first test, I think. Lancaster will be happy for the opportunity to give Ford and Attwood starts without having to openly drop his regulars.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:With Ford at 10, I think you need a bit of muscle at 12, perhaps Manu at inside and Daly at 13. I have seen Manu play 12 for Tigers, he is just as effective there.

He was excellent for the Lions there in the (admittedly lower standard) warm-ups as well. From what I've seen of Bath, pretty much all of their attacking play goes through Ford. He plays flat and likes to put runners straight through holes rather than spreading it wide quickly. On that basis Tuilagi at 12 outside him, rather than a second fly half, could work really well.

thomh wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:With Ford at 10, I think you need a bit of muscle at 12, perhaps Manu at inside and Daly at 13. I have seen Manu play 12 for Tigers, he is just as effective there.

He was excellent for the Lions there in the (admittedly lower standard) warm-ups as well. From what I've seen of Bath, pretty much all of their attacking play goes through Ford. He plays flat and likes to put runners straight through holes rather than spreading it wide quickly. On that basis, Tuilagi at 12 outside him rather than a second fly half, could work really well.

If SL decides he needs a 2nd playmaker or boot, Brown can step up from fullback do that job very well, left footed as well.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:...Brown can step up from fullback...

As long as his hamstring recovers in time to tour.

In the worst case, I wonder who is next in line. With Foden and Goode in the final, does Lancaster turn to one of Watson, Tait or Pennell?

Of course, Monye has experience playing at full back for England...

Rugby Fan wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:...Brown can step up from fullback...

As long as his hamstring recovers in time to tour.

In the worst case, I wonder who is next in line. With Foden and Goode in the final, does Lancaster turn to one of Watson, Tait or Pennell?

Of course, Monye has experience playing at full back for England...

according to twitter we'll find out tomorrow.

I would suggest (with Garvey being injured) to play Slater at blind side instead of Wood. I am not saying Johnson is a bad player but he is more in the open-side mould. Probably Slater is a better line-out operator. Would then give a bit of a 'beefy' pack which at least would be a test for New Zealand.

Inside centre seems the main bone of contention, I would be useful to have a bit of bulk because of Ford at FH. Deveto seems too young, Burrell and Barrett are not available. I believe Twelvetrees is injured. Eastmond is a little light weight (with Ford at 10) but a good player. Allen always looks consistent.

At fullback if Brown is out and Foden and Goode not available, Watson looks a very good player albeit still young and with limited experience. Otherwise Tait, Pennel, Ascott?

CB

Whoever set the scheduling up for this tour...  

England's priority must be the Third Test. The First Test is likely to be a hammering, the Second Test will be marred by a lack of cohesion, and the Third is their only, unlikely, hope.

Nah, we'll win the second test

what a Saturday that will be(second test)- NZ v England then England v Uruguay!!

England v Italy, Mysti.

And England v Sri Lanka in the First Test is on the same day as well!

I'll be in Australia for it, so I'll be able to watch rugby not online!

Will Lancaster be able to field any combinations with a modicum of playing history in the first Test?

Launchbury and Attwood have packed down together but, as far as I can tell, the others won't have much of an understanding outside what they can pick up in training.

I will be in the Caribbean- trying to work out where i will be able to see the rugby- I am sure the football will be easy enough to find.

Duty281 wrote:England v Italy, Mysti.

And England v Sri Lanka in the First Test is on the same day as well!

oh gawd. Why have a booked up my holiday at this time!!!

I should have just stayed at home- I forgot the tests!

My GF is going to be going nuts whilst I source places to watch sport! lol

mystiroakey wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England v Italy, Mysti.

And England v Sri Lanka in the First Test is on the same day as well!

oh gawd. Why have a booked up my holiday at this time!!!

I should have just stayed at home- I forgot the tests!

My GF is going to be going nuts whilst I source places to watch sport! lol

She must mean a lot to you if you're willing to go on holiday during the World Cup!

allways go away at this time mate. She has to go to start from the middle of the month. And I have to to go june. July and august are too busy with work.

I remember 4 years ago watching the group games in amphitheatres with loads of other England fans.. It was pretty awesome. I just don't want to miss the rugby, which will probally be tough to source..

What's the news on the Brown injury front? Now that he won't be in the final, it'll be a big blow if he can't make the series. Really like him as a player.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:What's the news on the Brown injury front? Now that he won't be in the final, it'll be a big blow if he can't make the series. Really like him as a player.

I think it gets checked out fully tomorrow, so we ought to have some news then.

Thanks. Laziness prevented from scrolling up to nathan's comment but I'm hungover from League celebrations and I still haven't got round to fixing breakfast even though I'm gagging for a fry up. Anyone feel like a Sunday flying visit to Madrid. It's 26 degrees and my kitchen has lovely views of the centre of Madrid...

Think Brown is being monitored, but with 3 weeks until the first test he should hopefully come through.

So the players who could conceivably be called up that we'll be missing for the first test are (Saracens and Northampton finalists):
Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, George Kruis, Billy Vunipola, Richard Wigglesworth, Owen Farrell, Brad Barritt, Joel Tomkins, Chris Ashton, David Strettle, Alex Goode, Alex Waller, Dylan Hartley, Courtney Lawes, Calum Clark, Tom Wood, Sam Dickinson, Lee Dickson, Stephen Myler, Luther Burrell, Ben Foden

And not considered for tour:
Alex Corbisiero, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Tom Croft, Jack Nowell, Christian Wade.

With question marks of Rob Webber, Billy Twelvetrees and Mike Brown.

We still can put out a strong team in the first test if we can get those three fit, something along the lines of: Marler, Webber, Wilson, Attwood, Launchbury, Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan, Care, Ford, May, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Yarde, Brown.

Does anyone know what the deal is with the Barbarians games? Is that going to be fully from players who are left at home or are any of them going to be asked to travel after with the second party.

For example, players like Catt, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Stooke, Wallace, Robson, Burns and Eastmond could start against the Barbarians then fly down to bench for the midweek game and get their faces known better around the squad.

On a player-by-player basis, the squad for the first Test might not look to bad, but you have to think of them as a team. As I said before, there are Baa Baas XVs with more experience of playing together than the side we will likely field.

We can't even fall back on using club combinations to plug the gap.

We might have two Quins players in the front row but add in Wilson, and you have three people who have probably never packed down together.

Attwood and Launchbury have played in the same match but I think they'll be the only combination to do so.

Certainly, Morgan, Robshaw and Johnson/Haskell/Slater are a bit more than just nodding acquaintances. Haskell trained alongside Robshaw and Morgan in 2012, coming on as a replacement for Morgan in the win over New Zealand. If it's one of the other candidates, then we are breaking completely new ground.

I doubt Care has played much with Ford, even in training.

Unless Lancaster goes with Allen alongside his Tigers team-mate Tuilagi in midfield, then our centres will be virtual strangers to each other.

Brown has played, separately, with Yarde and May but, if he's out, then it's likely none of our back three will know each other.

I can be as optimistic as the next man, and will watch the match hoping we play out of our skins. However, we've never managed to do so before when we've cobbled together a team, so Lancaster will have a real achievement if he can do it this time, especially against the All Blacks.

Here, I think, is the team I'd pick for the first test:

1. Marler
2. Ward/ Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury
6. Fearns (imagine it'll be Johnson though)
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi (moved in to bulk up the 10/12 channel. Also, I think we can afford more of a runner at 12 with Ford at 10)
13. Joseph? Wasn't really sure about this one. Who else though?
14. Yarde
15. Brown (hopefully)

16. Ward / George
17. Mullan
18. Thomas
19. Johnson
20. Parling
21. B Youngs
22. Watson
23. Cipriani

I think that team could still be competitive...

English centres have been virtual strangers for years,nothing new there!

I think Tuilagi and eastmond would work out ok for us.joseph has been injured a lot,would put him behind trinder,daly etc

In the centres, why not try Allen next to Tuilagi. Allen has been very good this season, and in the absence of Burrell at 12, why not Allen? He and Tuilagi would work well together.

If I was Lancaster - and England supporters everywhere can be grateful I'm not - I'd be sorely tempted to leave Robshaw out of the starting line-up for the first Test.

I'm not sure it will do his standing as captain much good if that match turns into one-way traffic.

It will also give us a chance to see how someone else performs at seven, and give another player captaincy experience - maybe Care or Launchbury.

Then again, if you don't play Robshaw, you might be sending a message to your squad that you are writing the match off, which could being about a worse outcome all round.

Looking at the likely team I think it still looks pretty strong. I would like to see Fearns get a call up but wouldn't be adverse to seeing Wallace and Robshaw. There's a chance here to either finally try Eastmond or even Tuilagi and Daly.Even if we lose it's an excellent opportunity for depth for flankers, 10 and centre.

Do people not think Ford and Eastmond is a bit of a small combo for 10/12?

Neither are revolving doors in defence although because of their size they're not going to push people back. Their strengths are definitely going forward and I personally wouldn't mind seeing it. I think this 1st test is a bit of a roll the dice. No one expects us to do well, certainly not win and are already blaming the unions. No pressure, go out and play.

I agree to an extent, but watching Nonu run at those 2 is going to be with my eyes closed most of the time. I guess we could always ask Tuilagi to stand at 12 in defence, if he has done so before.

That would be quite a collision

And watching them jig round Nonu is going to be fun to watch   

No 7&1/2 wrote:Neither are revolving doors in defence although because of their size they're not going to push people back. Their strengths are definitely going forward and I personally wouldn't mind seeing it. I think this 1st test is a bit of a roll the dice. No one expects us to do well, certainly not win and are already blaming the unions. No pressure, go out and play.

Well someone (or more) from the backrow is going to have to work very hard. These two players can defend but you just know that they will be getting big guys running at the 10/12 axis all day long.

I agree lost. If they start they will be targeted, I just think they'll cope pretty well. Let's face every player has a weakness as do the coaches systems. NZ are good enough to exploit anyone being there but these 2 players if they get the chance can cause NZ problems themselves. Like I said no one is expecting us to win so not much to lose.

Just read the BBC article on Cipriani and Opta credit Ford and Cips as the top 2 tackling fly halfs. I know you have to consider internationals/rotations but quite a turn around from them both.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just read the BBC article on Cipriani and Opta credit Ford and Cips as the top 2 tackling fly halfs. I know you have to consider internationals/rotations but quite a turn around from them both.

Or is it that Sale and Bath are just the two worst teams at protecting their F/H?

It is good news though

Think Bath did try and hide Ford initially but the thing it shows for me is even if the opposition is targeting them (which they would/should) they ain't shying away from it.

The Available (for 1st test, using SLs next cab of the rank policy)
Marler
Ward
Wilson
Attwood
Launchbury
Johnson
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Ford
Yarde
Eastmond
Tuilagi
Ashton
Tait

Unavailables:

Corbs, Vunipola
Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Cole
Lawes
Parling
Croft
Wood
Vunipola
Dickson
Farrell
Wade
Twelvetrees
Burrell
Nowell
Brown/Goode/Foden

Watson at full back?