Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

First topic message reminder :

NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

LondonTiger wrote:The Available (for 1st test, using SLs next cab of the rank policy)
Marler
Ward
Wilson
Attwood
Launchbury
Johnson
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Ford
Yarde
Eastmond
Tuilagi
Ashton
Tait

Unavailables:

Corbs, Vunipola
Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Cole
Lawes
Parling
Croft
Wood
Vunipola
Dickson
Farrell
Wade
Twelvetrees
Burrell
Nowell
Brown/Goode/Foden

Ashton's not available for the first test. It is likely to be May at 11 and Yarde at 14, that being left and right wings respectively.

If Brown isn't fit then Watson comes into the picture at 15.

I'd like to see Haskell come into the 23 for the 1st test, either starting at 6 or on the bench.

I really like Johnson, but I just think I'd like the added carrying power and breakdown presence of Haskell against the ABs.

Additions to the training squad (from espn)

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Jamie Gibson (Leicester Tigers), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Charlie Matthews (Harlequins), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Last time 3 players in a specialist position from the same club were in any kind of England squad?

(Ward, Gray, Buchanan)

The RFU site states that they've included Rob Webber, James Gaskell and Ross Harrison too.

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/may/news-articles/190514_nz_squad_update

Some odd selections, some exciting.

Gibson and Gaskell have had good, solid seasons, but I think their inclusion might be a little unwarranted.

Has Gray turned out for Harlequins recently? I thought he was injured.

I think we might be looking at a Allen, Tuilagi centre partnership for the 1st test, which I think will be solid on the international scene.

Wow, ok well some of these are clearly selections with the Baa Baas game in mind (Gaskell, Harrison, all the world's hookers).

Be interesting to see the fringe players taken to NZ for the midweek game and the experience.

I genuinely had to google Ross Harrison, that hasn't happened for a while!

Blues

Gaskell and Harrison have been stated as additions for the Baa Bass.

I expect Gibson, Matthews and at least one of, if not both Buchanan and Gray will be the same.

king_carlos wrote:Blues

Gaskell and Harrison have been stated as additions for the Baa Bass.

I expect Gibson, Matthews and at least one of, if not both Buchanan and Gray will be the same.

Yeh, that's what I thought when I saw their names. I really like the look of Buchanan, and sort of hope he tours for some senior squad experience, though he's not played a lot recently.

It seems to be a get together of every potential England player under the sun. You'd have to be pretty gutted not to get picked.

So much for the PRL not getting on with the RFU. No way is Lancaster allowed to demand 41 players, plus the guys from 4 other teams (3 of which provide a lot of current England squad players). Suggests good give and take.

I think they'll be reviewing all of them and then they can be split into New Zealand tour, Barbarians or surplus.

lostinwales wrote:Additions to the training squad (from espn)

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Jamie Gibson (Leicester Tigers), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Charlie Matthews (Harlequins), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

No Tom Youngs or Tom Croft?

Crofty isn't being rushed back, due to the risk of furthering his injury. Summer off for him.

Tom Youngs has removed himself from consideration due to personal reasons. Apparently his wife is pretty unwelll, so he's taking the time off to care for her.

I think Haskell should start if he goes on tour. He proved himself at the highlanders securing a starting berth and actually did quite well surprising a few people.... my favourite moment was his double punch on two bokke in bloemfontein when they were man-handling him.

Anyhow he won't back down, is experienced and won't get over awed by the opponents and unless he's completely out of form he will over a lot of grunt and probably better ball carrying options than Wood does.
Good lifter in the lineout though and a good team man.

For a stop gap I'd rather bank on knowing that someone will come in and do a 7/10 job, miss no tackles & be committed than someone who could put in a 8/10 performance but given the circumstances and the opposition, will more likely put in a 5/10 one.

Thanks bluestonevedder for explaining their absences.

I think the real test of England's future will be the 1st test. Yes they will have a few out of consideration but the 2nd choice chaps need to be able to step up.

Those 15/23 players holding the jersey today, will not be the same number of players holding the jersey come the RWC15.

Its an acid test sure but they need to be able to generate some confidence if they have aspirations to lift the trophy and become the best side in the world.

I agree its no good sending in inexperienced youths but if players want to be part of lancasters RWC squad they need to be able to put their hands up in the toughest rugby environment in the world, survive and ruffle some feather.

If NZ did the same they may lose, but it would be within a score. Thats what makes a world champion elect side. Nothing less.

I do worry about the Quins guys. They look knackered vs Sarries. Seemed to run out of energy after the first 40 minutes. A tour to NZ is not the best way to recuperate from a tough run of club rugby matches. Could be some battered bodies both mentally and physically. Players do need rest.

beshocked wrote:Thanks bluestonevedder for explaining their absences.

  

Hooker selection from start of season before injury forced changes in the Saxons:

EPS - Youngs, Hartley, Webber

Saxons - Buchanan, Gray, George

Possible hookers for first test if Hartley and Webber don't make it - I hate to say it but it's looking increasingly likely:

Ward and Cowan-Dickie   

king_carlos wrote:Hooker selection from start of season before injury forced changes in the Saxons:

EPS - Youngs, Hartley, Webber

Saxons - Buchanan, Gray, George

Possible hookers for first test if Hartley and Webber don't make it - I hate to say it but it's looking increasingly likely:

Ward and Cowan-Dickie   

that Webber is in the training squad, means he will be unfit for the amlin final - and the management are desperate to try and get him fit for T1.

Ward has had an amazing season, but the way he was completely nullified by Sarries indicates he is unlikely to have a long international future.

Buchanan and Gray are also in the training squad. Buchanan played 20 minutes or so on Saturday - his first since the early part of the season - and presumably came through it OK. Gray I thought would be out for longer but apparently not.

It looks as if Lancaster is taking a look at all the available hookers to see who is best placed to step up. Understandable under the circumstances.

fa0019 wrote:I think Haskell should start if he goes on tour. He proved himself at the highlanders securing a starting berth and actually did quite well surprising a few people.... my favourite moment was his double punch on two bokke in bloemfontein when they were man-handling him.

Anyhow he won't back down, is experienced and won't get over awed by the opponents and unless he's completely out of form he will over a lot of grunt and probably better ball carrying options than Wood does.
Good lifter in the lineout though and a good team man.

For a stop gap I'd rather bank on knowing that someone will come in and do a 7/10 job, miss no tackles & be committed than someone who could put in a 8/10 performance but given the circumstances and the opposition, will more likely put in a 5/10 one.

I still think Haskell offers a lot, in fact, in many regards I prefer him to Wood. His carrying in the tight hasn't impressed me as much as it has in the past but his tackling stats have been phenomenal. Not only that, but when he tackles people head on he actually drives them back or at least has the power to stop them on the gain-line. We have very few flankers who I think can do that. He's also quicker than Wood. I'd be interested to see how his rucking has been because everything else has looked pretty damn useful to me.

I'm a big Haskell fan but one thing we lose with him at 6 which Lancaster sides have used extensively is a 3rd strong line-out option. Lawes, deservedly so, got many of the plaudits for an improved line-out in the Six Nations but Woods work there was equally impressive I thought. Especially at pressure line-outs such as early in the match or in our own 22 he regularly jumped at the front of the line where, whilst the throw is easiest for the hooker, it's also where the jumper will usually get most pressure from the opposition.

In my opinion that's one of the reason Lancaster likes Johnson as his back-up to Wood and Croft. Whilst he doesn't offer as strong a jumping option as those two he's still an accomplished jumper to take some pressure of the 2nd rows.

I think Haskell's biggest problem is his personality. he has an ego the size of a medium sized country and thinks he is really funny. He is such a self promoter and press monkey and is fairly unintelligent based on almost every interview i have seen him in, i just think Lancs probably thinks he will cause more problems in camp like his bizarre behavior in NZ.

I think Lancaster was positive about Webber, Twelvetrees and Brown for the first test with intensive treatment. Hartley has been left with Northampton and Lancaster is hoping he'll be fit to take part in the Amlin final this weekend.

Haskell won't let us down,he will be desperate for a chance to show what he can offer.personally I think he has matured as a man after his globetrotting and as for ego,professional sportsmen should back themselves and have confidence in their abilities,if you doubt yourself you will end up a nervous nerys like priestland.im hoping he gets the nod and plays as well as he did when he stepped in against SA in 2012 when robshaw was injured.i think he made 17 tackles and was immense for us that day before going back to the highlanders.

On another train of thought, is it time for a recall for Haskell's Wasps team mate Tom Varndell?

May, Sharples and Yarde made the initial squad and Ashton will surely be added to the squad in time for the second test when he is done with his club obligations. Watson and Rokoduguni could be added at the end of the week, while Wade and Nowell our out injured.

If we think we have to put wingers out for the first test (May and Yarde), then take Watson out to cover the back 3 in the first test, with Brown starting at full back. Ashton will come back for the second test, and that will probably suffice for wingers, with Goode and/or Foden probably joining at the same time as Ashton.

This leaves us with Sharples and Rokoduguni as options for the Barbarians game, but Varndell added another try this weekend, to go with his 6 in 11 regular season games, in what was an injury-punctuated season. Still, he's at a rate better than 1 try every 2 games, following on from his 18 tries in 28 appearance in 2012/13.

At 28 and with just 4 caps to his name, if Varndell doesn't get a shot against the Barbarians with May, Yarde and Watson (assumed) in New Zealand, Ashton playing the Premiership final the day before and Nowell and Wade out injured, he can probably forget about representing England again, as this will put him at least 9th in the pecking order.

However, given his try scoring form in recent season is he worth a shot against the Barbarians? And if he plays well can he force his way into test match reckoning?

I'd be happy with Varndell being there. But he was involved in the Saxons when Lancaster was in charge and didn't look that interested (but then quite a few players didn't under Lancaster, including Cipriani and even Dowson)

Varndell is still in his thoughts,got called up for Saxons this year but got injured

Theres going to be an interesting lineup for the 1st test and Baa Baas games.

Bit surprised Tait hasn't even been considered for the Baa-baas game. With Foden and Goode definitely out of the first test and Brown doubtful, they must be thinking of taking one or two full backs to NZ. Probably signals that his international career is over.

Has Tait played much in the last 6 months?

Someone like Pennell has played exceptionally well in a poor side. I would take him over Tait by a country mile.

i would even take Alex Tait (Matts brother) who has had an exceptionally good season at Fb for us...over Matt at the moment.

Not sure about that GF.

Tait has looked great for Tigers recently. His attacking prowess is back and he's added a real defensive edge to his game. I thought he outplayed Foden at the weekend in all aspects bar a few mis-placed kicks. Pennell has had a great season but does he possess that extra gear required for Int rugby?? Alex again has really impressed but is nowhere near Matt imo.

It all depends on his injury proneness Sarge. I thought he'd been injured again.

He's one of those that you always feel is ten minutes from an injury,.

I know what you mean, I think he's had a good run this season though?? I thought he was excellent against Saints the other night.

Well what ever happens it'll be interesting to see who's selected.

Foden and Goode will def miss the 1st test.
Did i hear that Brown is injured?
That leaves...well...erm...

Watson, Tait, Pennell, May? Alex Tait,

Word on the street is Brown will be training next week. So who is the 23 shirt for the first test, likely to be Watson I imagine.

If the back three for the first test is:

11 Yarde
14 May
15 ? Brown if fit?

Yeah i would have Watson on there. Shame Nowell isnt fit...would be interesting to see him at FB if Brown was injured....or V the Crusaders.

But i like the look of Watson - big lad, serious pace, prepared to go for it. Covers FB and Wing.

Pennell has been getting such rave reviews despite playing for Worcs that you would want to see him somewhere in the mix, just to see if he could make it at international level.

Watson has plenty of time. Tait is more or less a known quantity. Wouldnt have any issues with him playing as long as hes fit   

Well make your choice...first test is likely to be from:

Pennell
Brown (IF he's fit)
Watson
May? Possibly moved to FB where he has played.
Tait

Whoever it is...aside from Brown is going is going to be very inexperienced.

In fact the whole bloody team is going to be from the looks of it!

So would you say its going to be the following (or similar) for the 1st test?
(Based on the hope slight injuries are fixed)

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 D.Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Launchbury
6 Haskell / Johnson
7 Robshaw
8 B.Morgan

9 Care
10 Ford

11 Yarde
12 Allen
13 Tuilagi
14 J.May
15 Brown

16. Buchanan/ Ward 17. H.Thomas 18. Mullan 19. Slater 20 Ewers 21 Youngs 22 Eastmond 23 Watson

I could live with that starting 15

I think Allen has been picked for the baa baas

If he has...then that leaves us short for the 1st test?

It's going to be Eastmond Tuilagi or Tuilagi Daly surely?

I'm expecting something like that 15 to be honest.

It was interesting to note during the 6N that Eastmond was in the stands with the England boys for one of the matches when 36 was injured. Almost as if he was there because he if considered the next 12 in line if 36 hadn't been able to make the game.

Due to that, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eastmond and Tuilagi in the centres.

I thought Eastmond hadnt been even playing for Bath?

I'd rather Eastmond than Allen. Just read Lancaster has said he's hopeful both Webber and Twelvetrees are going to be fit in time for the 1st test.

I dont mind Allen, i think hes a good player. Would be happy with him in there for the 1st test with his club mate Tuilagi.

Eastmond is difficult one. All the potential, why is he not a set in stone starter for Bath? Is it attitude...or just not good enough (too small etc)

I think Allen has proved he's not quite an international player and I'd want Lancaster to be looking at this game as an opportunity rather than looking for a stop gap. He's been very much a part of Baths team this season hasn't he?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Allen has proved he's not quite an international player and I'd want Lancaster to be looking at this game as an opportunity rather than looking for a stop gap. He's been very much a part of Baths team this season hasn't he?

Interesting comment. I am wondering how Allen has prooved anything either way? He was of course capped but it was a long time ago and probably isnt that relevant to now.