Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

kingelderfield wrote:Change of tack;

We've all focussed on the players situations; injuries, form and abilities, however I think this tour will tell us a lot about where our coaching panel is and specifically where Lancaster is in his development as a selector and strategic player.

I don't really count last years Argentinian tour due to the quality of opposition, so for comparison I think you need to go back to South Africa 2012 where we were taught a lesson in physicality which Lancaster chose to ignore until Wales kicked our backsides good and proper.

Lessons have hopefully been learnt in a number of area's; appropiate positional selection, selection on form and ability over loyalty and the need for balance between defence and attack with the courage to play with ball in hand and to execute the opportunities that patience can provide.

All this is now in the melting pot and with the unique opportunity before us it will be very interesting to see how the coaches and primarily Lancaster perform?

Thing is that you only really get hints of what is happening behind the scenes in the day to day interaction between Lancaster and his players. But what you do hear is normally very good. He does seem to be good at talking to players and at giving them pointers as to how he thinks they should develop their game.

As for the SA tour we didnt do too badly and we are not the first nor shall we be the last team to suffer from SA physicality

lostinwales wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Change of tack;

We've all focussed on the players situations; injuries, form and abilities, however I think this tour will tell us a lot about where our coaching panel is and specifically where Lancaster is in his development as a selector and strategic player.

I don't really count last years Argentinian tour due to the quality of opposition, so for comparison I think you need to go back to South Africa 2012 where we were taught a lesson in physicality which Lancaster chose to ignore until Wales kicked our backsides good and proper.

Lessons have hopefully been learnt in a number of area's; appropiate positional selection, selection on form and ability over loyalty and the need for balance between defence and attack with the courage to play with ball in hand and to execute the opportunities that patience can provide.

All this is now in the melting pot and with the unique opportunity before us it will be very interesting to see how the coaches and primarily Lancaster perform?

Thing is that you only really get hints of what is happening behind the scenes in the day to day interaction between Lancaster and his players. But what you do hear is normally very good. He does seem to be good at talking to players and at giving them pointers as to how he thinks they should develop their game.

Agreed, however obviously the team selection and game plan/execution/performance is/are the most telling indicators of how the coaches are developing.

As for the SA tour we didnt do too badly and we are not the first nor shall we be the last team to suffer from SA physicality

Strongly disagree. We were blown away by there physical forward approach and this was a selectorial failing which by and large has now been dealt with. We have the resources and in this modern era should able to front. Ofcourse we still play too much rugby especially compared with Oz and NZ but our ability to defend physically should not be discounted.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Beating the Wasps drum, it is worth SL taking a look at Jake Cooper-Woolley at th. He's had a fantastic season at scrum time and in the loose.

His problem is he hasn't been around the England set up at all. Mainly because he came to pro rugby late, having gone to uni at UWIC and played for them and Bedwas in Wales.

Cooper-Woolley's had a hell of a season, and he's been a bit of a revelation at TH. I think an international call-up will come in the future. I was just wondering whether he'd choose England or Wales? He might not have any ambition to play for Wales, but for some reason I always associate him with Welsh rugby because of his route into the pro game and playing Welsh champtionship

kingelderfield wrote:If Eastmond isn't in the 1st test 23 then I fully expect him to go back to league.

If 36 is fit and starting, then I'd even consider starting Eastmond instead of May as he has played wing for Bath.

SL needs to make the decision now, Baa Bas or versus the Crusaders is simply a waste of time - he's either part of the plan or not - all this 'is he isn't he' development rubbish is a waste of everybody's, especially Eastmond's, time and career.

I believe he has abundent talent and is a big game player, bigger the stage bigger the performance and I think Bath have failed to fully realise his ability and will probably continue to do so with Ford the Daddy in charge.

He'll definitely be going on tour. During the 6N when 36 was an injury doubt and Barritt was out injured, Eastmond was working with the squad. So he's 3rd in line for the 12 shirt I guess? But then he's diverse enough to play winger too, so that plays to his advantage.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Beating the Wasps drum, it is worth SL taking a look at Jake Cooper-Woolley at th. He's had a fantastic season at scrum time and in the loose.

His problem is he hasn't been around the England set up at all. Mainly because he came to pro rugby late, having gone to uni at UWIC and played for them and Bedwas in Wales.

Cooper-Woolley's had a hell of a season, and he's been a bit of a revelation at TH. I think an international call-up will come in the future. I was just wondering whether he'd choose England or Wales? He might not have any ambition to play for Wales, but for some reason I always associate him with Welsh rugby because of his route into the pro game and playing Welsh champtionship

Is he Welsh qualified? He only moved there to go to uni, so unless he has Welsh parents/grandparents he's not eligible. He was in the Quins academy before that so...

bluestonevedder wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Beating the Wasps drum, it is worth SL taking a look at Jake Cooper-Woolley at th. He's had a fantastic season at scrum time and in the loose.

His problem is he hasn't been around the England set up at all. Mainly because he came to pro rugby late, having gone to uni at UWIC and played for them and Bedwas in Wales.

Cooper-Woolley's had a hell of a season, and he's been a bit of a revelation at TH. I think an international call-up will come in the future. I was just wondering whether he'd choose England or Wales? He might not have any ambition to play for Wales, but for some reason I always associate him with Welsh rugby because of his route into the pro game and playing Welsh champtionship

I do not think he qualifies for Wales - unless via parentage. Born and raised in England, was on Quins books before he went to Cardiff Uni.

I really should read all posts before answering

Impressive how close they were

I could be wrong but I think he's (C-W) still injured? I hope its not serious as I believe he missed the entire previous season with injury.

SCW made a very explicit point yesterday (commenting on the HK and specifically the first Toulon try) about the need at the very top level to play 2 play makers at 10 & 12 - comparing Wilkinson and Giteau (/Greenwood/Catt) with Farrell and Barritt.
I do agree in general terms especially when your 10 (Wilkinson/Farrell) is not a natural play maker.

There were obviously other factors that determined yesterdays result, however if you isolate your 10 whose 1st strenght is not as an attacking play maker, like Hodgson, then you immediately limit your ability to adapt as the game unfolds.

England do appear to have learnt this lesson (Farrell/36) however its all about balance (strait man funny man) and so if 36 is not fit for the 1st test, will we be able to find this balance?

If you play Cipriani or Burns can you then play Eastmond at 12? Perhaps one solution would be for Tuilagi and Eastmond to play IC/OC as required attack/defence?

Add to that Robshaw,s ability to play IC - however obviously this is an untested team and as much as possible you don't want to complicate your play.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2013-14/rugby/story/226889.html

Mako Vunipola is a doubt for the final, and perhaps even the tour.

Owen Farrell also a doubt for the final. Seems he injured himself in the warm-up. Given he's had a problem with his foot for a few weeks now, it might be worth leaving him at home, even if he does recover in time.

Rugby Fan wrote:http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2013-14/rugby/story/226889.html

Mako Vunipola is a doubt for the final, and perhaps even the tour.

Owen Farrell also a doubt for the final. Seems he injured himself in the warm-up. Given he's had a problem with his foot for a few weeks now, it might be worth leaving him at home, even if he does recover in time.

If Farrell doesn't tour I'd like to see Myler given a decent chance. He had another very good game against Bath on Friday and I'd certainly put him ahead of Burns on form (and recent playing time). He's had a very good season but, for some reason, quite a lot of people see him as being too much of a 'steady eddie'.

If Twelvetrees is fit he'll obviously be the starting IC. If he isn't it's a bit trickier. SL could try Tuilagi there, but he won't lack the lack of playing making ability. I don't see Allen as any more than good club player, but given Eastmond has been dropped by his club I can't really see any other options.

I think Eastmond looks more like a 10 than a 12, but I don't think he's got the kicking game to play 10 at the higher levels. If I were looking at Bath centres I'd look at the two who are keeping Eastmond out of the team:

- Devoto has the potential to play 12 for England - he has a very well rounded game, but obviously has a lot to learn and he might have to wait until after the WC (when he'll have to deal with the extremely promising Stephenson - the most exciting IC prospect England have had for several years).
- Joseph looks to be playing his best rugby for years.

Size does matter at IC - you need to be able to stop your opposite number fairly consistently on the gainline. Eastmond can tackle, but will consistently concede ground.

Is 36 a footballer, hate to agree with SCW but the combo of Jonny and Giteau was superb and it has worked for england before with Jonny and Catt.

Scratch wrote:Is 36 a footballer, hate to agree with SCW but the combo of Jonny and Giteau was superb and it has worked for england before with Jonny and Catt.

36 is seen by most as a footballing IC, with sufficient size to enable competence+ in the other facets of the position.

The issue is will he be fit in time? I'm sure having your international starting shirt put on line will be enough to concentrate the mind and encourage full fitness is achieved. Only problem is if your not actually 100% then any resultant poor performance could actually give cause to doubt your future selection.

Telegraph also doubtful about Mako Vunipola's chances of touring

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10855861/Mako-Vunipola-is-a-doubt-for-Englands-tour-to-New-Zealand-with-knee-injury.html

Doubtful whether they have more information than the earlier reports so, either they are guessing, or Saracens are pretty sure about the extent of the injury already.

I can't say I'm too upset. He's another English Lion who might benefit from a break. The Vuniploa brothers are good assets to have but they do pick up niggles.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11261623

""I know if we had 10 players that couldn't play in that first game the players we put in there would be playing for their lives. So let's make no mistake, that first week's going to be a massive week because there's going to be guys in there in the English jersey that are going to be desperate to play very, very well for their own future.""

This always has kind of a double edged meaning to it. Logically speaking, and if selections are true, a side without 10 'better' players should not produce a 'better' result than the side with the players.

Its an interesting conundrum- because if the replacement players were to produce a better result- then why don't sides simply drop their 10 best players to get the same result every time.

Thats obviously a stupid argument but it sure does provide one of those rare and interesting experiments.

I've always thought the first test would be the easiest for anyone this year, aside from the away match to SA. Main reason, because the ABs havnt been Abs for 7 months. They havnt got combinations working. They havnt got results on the board yet. They havent got very recent results and images to remind the first up side who they're playing and what they're in for, though I'm sure they'll have enough to keep them occupied.

Last year the French side had a number of players missing- and the first test was still their best result of the 3.

I just think the AB's first up is better prey for more reasons than one thats been together a while, so long as the oppostion is up there or abouts, which I'm sure England will be.

Only reason I'm not too concerned this year is because the sxv form of the likely 23 are mostly in very (very) good form, and we dont have excessive injuries to key players, and neithers usually the case at this time of year.

Only reason I'm not too concerned this year is because the sxv form of the likely 23 are mostly in very (very) good form, and we dont have excessive injuries to key players, and neithers usually the case at this time of year.

Compared to England who are already in bits having played a 50% longer season than any AB has to endure.

All said and done the NH plays to much rugby which is short changing everyone envolved.

NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

England squad for Barbarians game
Props
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Will Collier (Harlequins), Kyle Sinkler (Harlequins)

Hookers
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)

Locks
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Matthews (Harlequins), Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks)

Back rows
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Jamie Gibson (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps)

Fly half
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Centres
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) , Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Wings
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)

Full backs
Elliot Daly (London Wasps), Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)

I know the selection was flagged earlier, but I'm still a bit surprised Mat Tait isn't one of the best seven full backs in England.

Pretty happy, Webber and 36 being in bodes well for their fitness. I expected Sinckler to go to NZ but he is very young and Brookes is no mug by any means.

We will hopefully see the following added to the tour after the final

Mako, Billy, Fraser? Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Burrell, Foden?

Looks pretty strong!

no Allen either. Other than that, much as expected given the circumstances. 4 hookers in the main squad may seem like overkill especially given Hartley could join up, but I guess they're fitness doubts about Webber?

Allen couldn't make the trip because of injury.

BamBam wrote:

Mako, Billy, Fraser? Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Burrell, Foden?

Looks pretty strong!

 Cant see Fraser going. reckon Ashton will go as there is only 2 wingers announced, also reckon Tualigi may be played on the wing sometime.

 Anyone know what the damage is to Mako I think Faz is fine but there are doubts over Mako (I think)

Guardian says Nowell has been dropped. I thought he was injured.

Rugby Fan wrote:Guardian says Nowell has been dropped. I thought he was injured.

 Lazy journalism.

Nowell is defo injured. Having a knee operation (it's reported on page 5 of this thread).

Not a bad team Welly, although if they are fit enough I would have 36 and Webber starting

BamBam wrote:Not a bad team Welly, although if they are fit enough I would have 36 and Webber starting

 Well wasn't sure if 36 is going to be fit enogh hearing some Glous fans talk about how he looked on crunches I think.

 Ward and Webber for me is a toss up maybe the link between Webber, Wilson and Attwood would be handy in the tight 5. But wards work rate has been amazing this season and will be needed in the breakdown against he AB.

You can see the growing strength in English rugby. For instance:

- There are 4 TH's under 24 years of age in the two squads, and all 4 of them have the potential to have good international careers in my view.

- Despite the problems at hooker there are still plenty of options and Cowan-Dickie and Buchanan are hookers with real ability.

- The Barbarians side is able to choose from Joseph and Daly at OC.

In comparison here is the side which lost at home to Australia in November 2009:

England: Monye; Cueto, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Banahan; Wilkinson, Care; Payne, Thompson, Wilson, Deacon, Borthwick, Croft, Moody, Crane.

Replacements: Haskell (for Crane, 53), Hartley (for Thompson, 57), Bell (for Wilson, 58), Hodgson (for Care, 63), Erinle (for Hipkiss, 67), Lawes (for Deacon, 68).

Not Used: Andy Goode.

My recollection is that there just weren't many options back then, and although England had started to show well at u20 level it was clear it was going to take a while to feed through.

I'm feeling really positive about English rugby at the moment. Although we may well lose 3-0 in June I still think we'll take things from it.

Also reckon Waller will get the go ahaead.

 Hopefully Lancaster will bring up Roko, Daly and Sinckler after the BaaBaa game for added depth need to think about players for the mid week cant risk many for that.

Good to see Pennell get a chance. Although if he plays well I'd imagine he'll have to leave Worcester.

I reckon Alex Waller may get called up next week.

Watson was obviously supposed to have been one of the extra wings, and Ashton the other.

I've changed my mind on Farrell - I'd give him the summer off. I think Myler has really developed as a player and this is the last chance Farrell has for a proper rest pre-WC (he's been picking up a fair few injuries lately).

Has anyone been watching Ethan Waller? Amazing prospect in my view. England could end up with 5 or 6 top class loose-heads all in their early to mid-20s.

With 4 hookers on the first plane and Hartley likely to follow, looks like Jamie George will miss out. Shame for him, but I guess he's a victim of the scheduling.

DaveM wrote:Has anyone been watching Ethan Waller? Amazing prospect in my view. England could end up with 5 or 6 top class loose-heads all in their early to mid-20s.

All of us who are Saints supporters know about our Waller brothers. In a few years he could really be the goods.

In the meantime, a patchwork team going to NZ?
Oh, this won't be fun.

Based on the squad going for the first test i estimate a 50 point drubbing, at least.

Scratch wrote:Based on the squad going for the first test i estimate a 50 point drubbing, at least.

 Don't think so NZ have a good enough team to get within 20 points of England.

Welly wrote:

Scratch wrote:Based on the squad going for the first test i estimate a 50 point drubbing, at least.

 Don't think so NZ have a good enough team to get within 20 points of England.

assuming manu doesn't cause them to have another manflu wibble

I think the following will start the first test. Those with * could make some sort of case for currently being considered first choice (I'm not arguing they all are first choice if everyone were fit, just that they are close enough you could debate it). The replacements are weaker than you'd normally see.

1. Marler*
2. Webber
3. Wilson*
4. Launchbury*
5. Attwood
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw (C)*
8. Morgan
9. Care*
10. Cips
11. May*
12. Twelvetrees*
13. Tualigi*
14. Yarde*
15. Brown*

16. Ward
17. Mullan
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20. Kvesic
21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Eastmond

Barbarian team for England :

Backs (10): Jimmy Cowan (NZL/Gloucester), Tomas Cubelli (ARG/Belgrano), Hosea Gear (NZL/Toulouse), Juan Martin Hernandez (ARG/Racing Métro), Brock James (AUS/Clermont), James O'Connor (AUS/London Irish), Rene Ranger (NZL/Montpellier), Joe Rokocoko (NZL/Bayonne), Benson Stanley (NZL/Clermont), François Trinh-Duc (FRA/Montpellier).

Forwards (14): Julien Brugnaut (FRA/Racing Métro), Schalk Ferreira (RSA/Toulouse), Mamuka Gorgodze (GEO/Montpellier/GEO), Andrew Hore (NZL/Highlanders), Juandre Kruger (RSA/Racing Métro/RSA), Alexandre Lapandry (FRA/Clermont), Juan Manuel Leguizamon (ARG/Lyon), Nahuel Lobo (ARG/Montpellier), Donncha O'Callaghan (IRL/Munster), Ti'i Paulo (SAM/Clermont), Sona Taumalolo (TGA/Perpignan), Joe Tekori (SAM/Toulouse), Roger Wilson (IRL/Ulster), Davit Zirakashvili (GEO/Clermont).

could for once be a really good game.

Scratch wrote:

Welly wrote:

Scratch wrote:Based on the squad going for the first test i estimate a 50 point drubbing, at least.

 Don't think so NZ have a good enough team to get within 20 points of England.

assuming manu doesn't cause them to have another manflu wibble

Nice bit of wumming

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

Welly wrote:

Scratch wrote:Based on the squad going for the first test i estimate a 50 point drubbing, at least.

 Don't think so NZ have a good enough team to get within 20 points of England.

assuming manu doesn't cause them to have another manflu wibble

Nice bit of wumming

Nicely irrelevant comment

 

Sgt_Pooly wrote: 

  

FH will be an interesting choice with SL stating it'll come down to who trains better.

I think NZ will win by around 20pts but it'll be a good experience for a young side.

As English fans to go into a game almost certainly knowing you will lose seems unthinkable after the progression that has been made, and all because of bureaucrats. (Same goes for Wales too)

I do think England will lose badly but i also think the 2nd and 3rd test will be much more competitive if England make a fist of it next weekend and have their first choice side out.