Bundee Aki commits to Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Bundee Aki has announced he's signed with Connacht. He will qualify for Ireland by 2018 and he's setting his eyes on making the Irish team if he can (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9938620/Bundee-Aki-targets-Irish-jersey-as-he-quits-NZ). If that doesn't work out he is also Samoa qualified.

I'm sad to see him go. He's a useful no 12 and I feel he would eventually have gained some AB's caps. However, at 24 with SBW returning next year, and a young family you can see his perspective. Good luck to him.

Here's the question. How do Irish fans see their depth at 12, both in terms of current players and young players coming through?

Bundee Aki is going to Connaught....is that a new team the IRFU started

ME-109 wrote:Bundee Aki is going to Connaught....is that a new team the IRFU started

Yes its a team for aggrieved Cork men.

I thought that was Leinster

I don't want him playing for Ireland. It would make a mockery of Irish rugby if this starts to get out of hand.

I doubt he will and if he does then the IRFU and provinces arent really doing their job right which is to ensure a constant stream of talent.

I am not a great fan of this but how is it different from Strauss, Payne, Stander (possibly) etc.

So Guns should Strauss be dropped accordingly and we shouldnt consider him?

Strauss is third choice and about as close to an Irish shirt currently as Zebo is.  He'd probably be further down the order if Leinster were producing hookers.

I doubt Aki will get a shot for Ireland. There is too much potential coming through at centre. Payne himself will only be there for a couple of years.

Just watched a tribute video of this guy. Looks like a real baller, feel sorry for him! Probably doesn't know what he's got himself into!

Other than Payne I doubt any residency qualified player will get near the Irish team for the forseeable future.

Why will Payne only be there for a couple of years?
I can see him being around for 2019 if he shapes up. (He will be 33 for that World Cup)

Wouldnt be surprised to see Strauss as our replacement hooker. Schmidt always seemed to favour him over Cronin. With a proper pre season behind Strauss, Cronin may drop down the pecking order again.

Although maybe Cronin's impact off the bench will get him the 16 jersey.

I think the impact Cronin provides is key

If Best got a serious injury it could be a different matter

Golden wrote:Wouldnt be surprised to see Strauss as our replacement hooker. Schmidt always seemed to favour him over Cronin. With a proper pre season behind Strauss, Cronin may drop down the pecking order again.

Although maybe Cronin's impact off the bench will get him the 16 jersey.

Cronin has improved an awful lot. Id say Strauss will struggle to oust him any time soon.

If Strauss can get back to where he was in 2011 and 2012 he wont be too far off Bests place.

Having said that his skill set might be harder to show off under MOC (going by performances so far).

Golden wrote:If Strauss can get back to where he was in 2011 and 2012 he wont be too far off Bests place.

Having said that his skill set might be harder to show off under MOC (going by performances so far).

If Strauss gets back to 2011/2012 form, wouldn't be surprised if he starts ahead of Best.

geoff998rugby wrote:Other than Payne I doubt any residency qualified player will get near the Irish team for the forseeable future.

Why will Payne only be there for a couple of years?
I can see him being around for 2019 if he shapes up. (He will be 33 for that World Cup)

How's Jake Heenan doing. He's still young (only captained NZ under 20 side in 2012). Should qualify for Ireland in November 2016 (unless he has Irish heritage).

Bit torn on this. I don't like the idea of teams being essentially able to buy in talent, but I also feel pretty relaxed about the 'legitimacy' of people's nationality. My general feeling outside of sport is if you say you feel English or Irish etc. then I'm noone to tell you you don't. I'd like to extend that to sport as well.

I can tell you though, for a couple of hundred thousand pounds a year, I can pretty much forsake red meat and live off tea and crumpets

Biltong wrote:I can tell you though, for a couple of hundred thousand pounds a year, I can pretty much forsake red meat and live off tea and crumpets

I don't believe that for a second Bilts!   

blackcanelion wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Other than Payne I doubt any residency qualified player will get near the Irish team for the forseeable future.

Why will Payne only be there for a couple of years?
I can see him being around for 2019 if he shapes up. (He will be 33 for that World Cup)

How's Jake Heenan doing. He's still young (only captained NZ under 20 side in 2012). Should qualify for Ireland in November 2016 (unless he has Irish heritage).

He has been superb. Been out with an injury for a few months but he looks top quality.

Hood83 wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can tell you though, for a couple of hundred thousand pounds a year, I can pretty much forsake red meat and live off tea and crumpets

I don't believe that for a second Bilts!   

Fine, I'll eat it in secret.

profitius wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Other than Payne I doubt any residency qualified player will get near the Irish team for the forseeable future.

Why will Payne only be there for a couple of years?
I can see him being around for 2019 if he shapes up. (He will be 33 for that World Cup)

How's Jake Heenan doing. He's still young (only captained NZ under 20 side in 2012). Should qualify for Ireland in November 2016 (unless he has Irish heritage).

He has been superb. Been out with an injury for a few months but he looks top quality.

I think it was a bit of a shock when he went. Recent under 20's captain. Would have thought he would have gone onto super rugby to see how far he could have gone. Power of the Euro I guess and probably a more certain future with one club. Good luck to him.

As an ideal I'd like IRB rules to be:

Automatic eligibility if you are:
1: born in Nation
2: moved there before 13
3: parent's born in the Nation
With a player choosing a Nation when they play for a nation's nominated second side.

Eligibility subject to IRB approval
1: Players who moved to a country after the age of 13
2: Players who weren't born in a country but can show a connection
3: Players who have already played for a country

IRB dispensations above are based on the following.
1: any player who moved for rugby reasons would not qualify. I.e.scholarships (moves to "rugby schools") or club contracts would generally not allowed.
2: players who could demonstrate a genuinely strong connection through grandparents/adoption could qualify.
3: allow players from top tier nations play for 2nd tier nations they would otherwise have qualified for.
4: allow players to qualify for lower tier nations with amateur leagues on a 3 year residency basis for the good of the game as an automatic dispensation.

I think the issue is that the professional club game drags players to certain nations. There is a benefit to players and clubs for the player to play for that nation. I think the above rules would work. Especially given there is generally only a small number of players who would need a dispensation.

In the mean time, good luck to them all.

Indeed, good luck to all them prostitute players. Good luck to Ireland for paying for prostitutes. The IRB needs to implement transfer fees between clubs/unions for these prostitute players.

ebop wrote:Indeed, good luck to all them prostitute players. Good luck to Ireland for paying for prostitutes.  The IRB needs to implement transfer fees between clubs/unions for these prostitute players.

To be fair the current system pushes players to be available for their host nation, be it through limited selection opportunities for "foreign" players in club sides or kickbacks from the union for playing "qualified" players. Add to that non release for matches involving foreign internationals and it's a hard choice. It's just the way it is. Can't blame the players, they have a limited earning/playing potential and there's no parachute at the end of it.

ebop wrote:Indeed, good luck to all them prostitute players. Good luck to Ireland for paying for prostitutes.  The IRB needs to implement transfer fees between clubs/unions for these prostitute players.

You mean every single pro player? None of them play for free.

No, I mean those that have no self respect by flip flopping between nationalities for financial gain.

ebop wrote:No, I mean those that have no self respect by flip flopping between nationalities for financial gain.

Do you respect the "prostitutes" from abroad when they play for New Zealand? There have been plenty of examples. You cant have it every way.

Can only really think of Greg Rawlinson and Sivivatu (at a stretch – came over on a football scholarship). In any case, Rawlinson didn’t exactly pull up trees in his time and should have never been near a NZ team.

GG - can you name any others?

Brad Thorn kind of...A good example of flip flopping anyway.

I don't think in Thorn's case it was for financial gain. I remember his switch in 2001, he was doing it mainly because his Dad's sporting passion was the All Blacks. He was doing it in part to honour his Dad who died when he became a regular in the great Brisbane Broncos RL side of the 90's. Of course money plays a part...

He's a kiwi - if anything, he should have played RL for NZ in much the same way James Tamou should be playing for NZ. Now there's a can of worms.

That's why it's a kind of! He grew up in Aus, born in NZ. He could have represented either but personally I don't like it when people represent more than 1 country even across sports. Pick 1 and stick to it.

ebop wrote:Indeed, good luck to all them prostitute players. Good luck to Ireland for paying for prostitutes.  The IRB needs to implement transfer fees between clubs/unions for these prostitute players.

Ireland that would be the country that has only played 1 player in the last 12 years who qualifies solely by residency, and then only a couple of times, and has 1 other players who becomes qualified next year by this method.

People who visit the lady of loose morals house regularly should not question the morality of someone who visit once ever decade   

Glass houses and all that

chewed_mintie wrote:Can only really think of Greg Rawlinson and Sivivatu (at a stretch – came over on a football scholarship).  In any case, Rawlinson didn’t exactly pull up trees in his time and should have never been near a NZ team.

GG - can you name any others?

John Gallagher
Frank Bunce & Michael Jones - (although born in NZ they both played for Samoa first, flip flopping)
The first ever Kiwi captain was also from Donegal Ireland.

Thats already as many if not more than for Ireland.

chewed_mintie wrote:Can only really think of Greg Rawlinson and Sivivatu (at a stretch – came over on a football scholarship).  In any case, Rawlinson didn’t exactly pull up trees in his time and should have never been near a NZ team.

GG - can you name any others?

There's a few: Steve Devine, Joeli Vidiri, Sosene Anesi and Sione Taumoepeau come to mind. There's a few others, but not too many. Fekitoa will probably be the next. A bit of a kiwi version of Tuilagi or Delon Armitage really.

These guys were professional rugby players before they came to NZ BCL?

Quite a lot of players that have played for NZ are also from families that moved to to NZ when they were young or before they were born for the promise of a better life. They are in principle not that much different to Bundee Aki coming to Ireland for financial reasons.

Is Aki of Samoan descent? I dont think Ireland unlike most other NH sides have ever had a player of Samoan/Fijian/Tongan descent.

ebop wrote:These guys were professional rugby players before they came to NZ BCL?

What difference does it make? Would you rather Ireland or anyone else targeted promising young NZ teenagers?

That already happens

What exactly are we debating? Rugby Mercenaries or purely players who emigrated for whatever reason at whatever age?

ebop wrote:That already happens

For example? Don't recall an Ireland team ever offering a contract to any non professional player from NZ. The only example I can think of is St Marys, a semi professional AIL side offering Dan Carter a deal before he was taken in by the Crusaiders academy. That was nothing to do with playing for Ireland though.

Nah, not Ireland GG. Don't get me wrong mate, I did not mean you guys sending over talent scouts to NZ schools. I meant that talent scouts (in general) hawking around our schools (usually NRL). Anyways, it sounds like you guys don't have a history of poaching. And like BCL said earlier, it's a rules issue. He made sense above and explained the situation so it made sense why players change nationalities in the NH.

GunsGerms wrote:Quite a lot of players that have played for NZ are also from families that moved to to NZ when they were young or before they were born for the promise of a better life. They are in principle not that much different to Bundee Aki coming to Ireland for financial reasons.

Thats a tired argument. Island families moved to NZ in their droves so it wasnt for all of them about boosting their professional rugby careers. There are entire communities of Pacific Islanders in NZ. Bundee Aki goes to nothing remotely resembling that. Bet he'd have to travel 20 miles before he came across a non rugby or related playing Pacific Island resident in Ireland.

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Quite a lot of players that have played for NZ are also from families that moved to to NZ when they were young or before they were born for the promise of a better life. They are in principle not that much different to Bundee Aki coming to Ireland for financial reasons.

Thats a tired argument. Island families moved to NZ in their droves so it wasnt for all of them about boosting their professional rugby careers. There are entire communities of Pacific Islanders in NZ. Bundee Aki goes to nothing remotely resembling that. Bet he'd have to travel 20 miles before he came across a non rugby or related playing Pacific Island resident in Ireland.

I doubt he would find any at all.

Just read his quotes. It does seem a bit strange to see a player so publically state he's aiming to play for a country purely for the money. Puts him in the Hape and Flutey category for me rather than the Botha example.

He might be aiming to play for Ireland but he wont be selected unless after 3 years he really is a stand out player. Over the years there have been some really good Irish born centres so he will have his work cut out.

Would this be a good time to say that Connacht have just bought Auckland Blues hooker Tom McCartney too?

With a name like that I assume he has Irish heritage.

GunsGerms wrote:Would this be a good time to say that Connacht have just bought Auckland Blues hooker Tom McCartney too?

With a name like that I assume he has Irish heritage.

jaysus feckin' christ

Connacht is turning into a real Kiwi sanctuary:

Jake Heenan,
Craig Clarke,
George Naoupu,
Rodney Ah You,
Nathan White,
Tom McCartney,
Miah Nikora,
Bundee Aki.

That's a lot of Kiwis.

chewed_mintie wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Would this be a good time to say that Connacht have just bought Auckland Blues hooker Tom McCartney too?

With a name like that I assume he has Irish heritage.

jaysus feckin' christ

Have you heard of him? Is he any good?

McCartney has signed a 3 year deal.

Which is fair enough from a selection stand point Guns, but i don't think it's good for international rugby. There's been grumblings about a few; as you can tell I didn't particularly like Hape and Flutey representing England after NZ, didn't seem genuine, and impacts on people like Tuilagi and Botha who I don't have any problem with. Just seems a bit abusive to the system. Very hard to put rules in though. Could blackcanelions suggestion of dispension from the IRB work? Probably not so it's up to coaches to gauge whether it's good for the team, and the wider sport I suppose.