Bundee Aki commits to Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Bundee Aki has announced he's signed with Connacht. He will qualify for Ireland by 2018 and he's setting his eyes on making the Irish team if he can (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9938620/Bundee-Aki-targets-Irish-jersey-as-he-quits-NZ). If that doesn't work out he is also Samoa qualified.

I'm sad to see him go. He's a useful no 12 and I feel he would eventually have gained some AB's caps. However, at 24 with SBW returning next year, and a young family you can see his perspective. Good luck to him.

Here's the question. How do Irish fans see their depth at 12, both in terms of current players and young players coming through?

Probably a wee bit past it (28) so was never going to kick on but established on the NPC scene for a while. It's just another hammerblow to the NPC player base.

What is abusive to the system 71/2?

I don't really want these guys playing for Ireland myself. I don't want Jared Payne to be given a central contract but he has been and I don't like it.

I believe that you have to grow up here to really appreciate and be passionate about Ireland. I have never met a Kiwi who gives a sh1t about Irish rugby so I don't see why Payne will. Harsh? Maybe but that's how I feel about it.

That said I can see why the IRFU are doing it. They are a very forward thinking organisation and have recognised that over the course of the history of Irish rugby there have often been gaps in squad numbers in certain positions. So why not if the laws permit it sign foreigners that can as a contingency fill those gaps as required without neglecting the need for continuously producing home grown talent.

Diversity can be of a benefit in many ways too.

chewed_mintie wrote:Probably a wee bit past it (28) so was never going to kick on but established on the NPC scene for a while.  It's just another hammerblow to the NPC player base.

Maybe he already qualifies for Ireland?

GunsGerms wrote:What is abusive to the system 71/2?

I don't really want these guys playing for Ireland myself. I don't want Jared Payne to be given a central contract but he has been and I don't like it.

I believe that you have to grow up here to really appreciate and be passionate about Ireland. I have never met a Kiwi who gives a sh1t about Irish rugby so I don't see why Payne will. Harsh? Maybe but that's how I feel about it.

That said I can see why the IRFU are doing it. They are a very forward thinking organisation and have recognised that over the course of the history of Irish rugby there have often been gaps in squad numbers in certain positions. So why not if the laws permit it sign foreigners that can as a contingency fill those gaps as required without neglecting the need for continuously producing home grown talent.

Diversity can be of a benefit in many ways too.

Abusive in the sense that I don't think the rules are there for people to go to to another country with the aim of representing them and making money with no feel for that country at all. Flutey and Botha both represented England while qualifying through residency, I only have a problem with 1 of them.

Well Flutey left to go to France. Its obvious he wasn't all that bothered which is probably why the IRFU have certain clauses in the contracts they offer uncapped foreigners which help gague exactly how committed people really are. I guess we agree that we don't want players playing for our countries that aren't particularly bothered about playing for them. That's the last thing I want for Irish rugby anyway.

GunsGerms wrote:Connacht is turning into a real Kiwi sanctuary:

Jake Heenan,
Craig Clarke,
George Naoupu,
Rodney Ah You,
Nathan White,
Tom McCartney,
Miah Nikora,
Bundee Aki.

That's a lot of Kiwis.

Its a good thing if they improve Connacht as Connacht only supplies 1 player to the Irish squad so it doesn't hurt the national team. The main thing now is to improve Connacht to raise the profile of the game there.

McCartney is not a project player as he's a LH/hooker, the two positions we have great depth in.

A project player is surely just an uncapped player on at least a three year contract. With a name like that he may qualify right now anyway. We have depth but you can never have too much.

Connacht supplies two to the greater squad Marmion and Hendshaw. Marmion will surely travel to Argentina too.

RE McCartney...from what I have read there is no mention of him being Irish qualified. The article does mention his Fiancées grandfather is from Ireland (Cork) so it appears to be a non story in terms of becoming a project player.

ebop wrote:Indeed, good luck to all them prostitute players. Good luck to Ireland for paying for prostitutes.  The IRB needs to implement transfer fees between clubs/unions for these prostitute players.

All a club has to do is commit the player to a long term contract and they can request a fee if the player moves to another club during that contract. Fact is, clubs only give 2-3 year contracts as they want to have the option to kick that player to the kirb if the player gets injured or falls out of form. It's a simple fix for a club, they commit to a player and then those clubs can seek recompense if another club on transfers.

GunsGerms wrote:
That said I can see why the IRFU are doing it. They are a very forward thinking organisation and have recognised that over the course of the history of Irish rugby there have often been gaps in squad numbers in certain positions.

But these players are coming here to address Provincial gaps not Irish gaps - this is a very important distinction which just about everybody seems to miss.

I'll repeat - if it was to address Irish gaps the return we have had so far - 1 player playing 2 games, in a position where we are well served, in a decade would be a totally unacceptable return.
Except that is not the intended return and therefore not relevant.

The IFRU are not getting players over here to address Ireland deficiencies - Residency players playing for Ireland many be a by product but it is not the primary aim

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
That said I can see why the IRFU are doing it. They are a very forward thinking organisation and have recognised that over the course of the history of Irish rugby there have often been gaps in squad numbers in certain positions.  

But these players are coming here to address Provincial gaps not Irish gaps - this is a very important distinction which just about everybody seems to miss.

I'll repeat - if it was to address Irish gaps the return we have had so far - 1 player playing 2 games, in a position where we are well served, in a decade would be a totally unacceptable return.
Except that is not the intended return and therefore not relevant.

The IFRU are not getting players over here to address Ireland deficiencies - Residency players playing for Ireland many be a by product but it is not the primary aim

Good point Geoff.


Its also worth pointing out that these project players have not stood out in Super rugby either and some have not played Super rugby. If they're not at that level then they won't be good enough for Ireland especially in a few years when Ireland will have greater stocks of players.

GunsGerms wrote:

ebop wrote:That already happens

For example? Don't recall an Ireland team ever offering a contract to any non professional player from NZ. The only example I can think of is St Marys, a semi professional AIL side offering Dan Carter a deal before he was taken in by the Crusaiders academy. That was nothing to do with playing for Ireland though.

Jeremy Manning came over on a kind of scholarship when he was about 18 and went to UCC, playing for Munster. He never played for Ireland, though.

geoff998rugby wrote:Other than Payne I doubt any residency qualified player will get near the Irish team for the forseeable future.

Why will Payne only be there for a couple of years?
I can see him being around for 2019 if he shapes up. (He will be 33 for that World Cup)

Sorry Geoff I meant at centre, probably wasn't clear in how I typed it. He could be around at fullback alright or maybe 23 but I think Marshall will be in the centre and I am believing in the hype (coming from Ulster   ) about Olding.

No problem

Payne is a class act at 15 and imo opinion should stay there - he isn't the best 13 at Ulster let alone Ireland.

Olding is a class act potentially the best 12/13 since that bloke who has just retired   

Payne is not Irish though is he. You probably feel a bit grubby don't ya Geoff. You know, like you would if you slept with a prostitute huh.

ebop wrote:Payne is not Irish though is he. You probably feel a bit grubby don't ya Geoff. You know, like you would if you slept with a prostitute huh.

Please list the places of birth of the starting 15 of the national team you support  

You mean where each player learnt there rugby?

Look, I don't mind pimping out the players that the NZRU have developed, but at a price mate. Seeing as it's all one way traffic between NZ and SA to the under resourced but over funded NH. Heck, it's only our 2nd tier rejects like Payne and Aki et al that ever sell themselves out so it's not like our national teams suffer. But it's just the polite and moral thing to do when gaining the services of a prostitute, pay for it.

And don't get me started on the kiwi coaches that 'lead' your national teams. They're just as bad, no shame, no pride, not genuine kiwis IMO. They're just flip flopping greedy bstards. Hey, that's just pro rugby, no problem. Just show me the money, like it should be in 'pro' sport.

whew ebop...hard night in Rotovegas? very un-ebop like this morning...mind you, I'm still spitting after yet another pitiful Blues performance here. At least I dont live there any more...the club scene after Auck matches of the 80s and 90s something worth being part of...now...how depressing...

tecphobe wrote:

ebop wrote:Payne is not Irish though is he. You probably feel a bit grubby don't ya Geoff. You know, like you would if you slept with a prostitute huh.

Please list the places of birth of the starting 15 of the national team you support  

Last match vs Ireland?

1.Wyatt Crockett- Christchurch, NZ
2.Andrew Hore- Dunedin, NZ
3.Charlie Faumuina- South Auckland, NZ
4.Luke Romano- Nelson, NZ
5.Samuel Whitelock- Palmeston North, NZ
6.Steven Luatua- Auckland, NZ, and to save time...
7.Richie McCaw (captain), 8.Kieran Read, 9.Aaron Smith, 10.Aaron Cruden, 11.Julian Savea, 12.Ma'a Nonu, 13.Ben Smith, 14.Cory Jane, 15.Israel Dagg.

all NZ...

Ha, fair call Tman, sorry for the provocative'ness of my language. I'm just a proud kiwi like I know you are to. Kawerau/AKL. I also appreciate there are PI heritage or PI born NZ passport holders in the ABs so get the argument. But it's different I think. Anyways, I don't wish any of these players/coaches ill. How good was Savea last night? He's on fire. So much to like about JK. When I hear him speak I jump on the train.

Savea was fantastic. Havnt seen such a high work rate out of him before. He was into everything, has all the skills, classy chips to boot. Our sxv sides may not be looking good but there are some seriously good players looking to meet England which is what I'm mainly looking for.

Piatau, Savea, A, B and C Smith, Nonu, Fekitoa, Barrett, now Slade, up and comer 9's Pulu and Brynn Hall- all playing massive rugby.

Read and kaino coming back, McCaw in two weeks and already some seriously good form amongst others- Whitlock, Woodcock, Faumuina, Lam...too many to name. If we played England next week there'd be trouble...

ebop wrote:Ha, fair call Tman, sorry for the provocative'ness of my language. I'm just a proud kiwi like I know you are to. Kawerau/AKL. I also appreciate there are PI heritage or PI born NZ passport holders in the ABs so get the argument. But it's different I think. Anyways, I don't wish any of these players/coaches ill.  How good was Savea last night? He's on fire. So much to like about JK. When I hear him speak I jump on the train.

Its different because it benefited NZ.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If you have represented the U20's can you still swap?

If so then this must be stopped aswell.

Agreed. The Tier 1 nations already have everything going on for them, do they really need to also deliberately poach Tier 2 nations?

ebop wrote:And don't get me started on the kiwi coaches that 'lead' your national teams. They're just as bad, no shame, no pride, not genuine kiwis IMO. They're just flip flopping greedy bstards. Hey, that's just pro rugby, no problem. Just show me the money, like it should be in 'pro' sport.

Pot calling the kettle black? What about the polynesians not born in NZ who have played or are playing for the All Blacks? They must not be genuine kiwis, sure they have just moved over for the opportunity to play for a better team.

Of course I am sure that it is different for them though..   

Well there is a bit of difference in someone moving somewhere at 2, or 5, or even 13, and someone moving at 20-odd for a contract with a national union. Can you really not see a difference there?

Joke or no joke, being born elsewhere and moving over at a young age is a different kettle of fish than being raised and developed in one place and deciding, in your adult life, to switch allegiances when realising you won't get to represent the first place.

It's why I'm okay with Faletau representing Wales but on the other hand would never want to see someone like, say, Hanno Dirksen donning the red. No country should be used solely as a platform to flaunt your int'l capabilities

HammerofThunor wrote:Well there is a bit of difference in someone moving somewhere at 2, or 5, or even 13, and someone moving at 20-odd for a contract with a national union. Can you really not see a difference there?

My comment had nothing to do with this Aki character, or with the Payne situation (and for the record as good as Payne is, I would prefer an irishman to have the shirt and I am not a fan of the project player thing) but ebop is trying to suggest any Kiwi who moves to another country (coach or player) is a traitor and a disgrace basically. I don't think he put an age on it, to me it seems he isn't impressed with any Kiwi moving abroad to play/coach rugby. Which is a bit rich to say when your team has quite a few players who are not originally New Zealanders..

Like I said though, I am not a fan of what Aki is saying here, or even with the Payne situation. 3 years is a joke.

Knowsit17 wrote:Joke or no joke, being born elsewhere and moving over at a young age is a different kettle of fish than being raised and developed in one place and deciding, in your adult life, to switch allegiances when realising you won't get to represent the first place.

It's why I'm okay with Faletau representing Wales but on the other hand would never want to see someone like, say, Hanno Dirksen donning the red. No country should be used solely as a platform to flaunt your int'l capabilities

I agree with this. Which is why at U20 level I would say you should be tied to that country.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well there is a bit of difference in someone moving somewhere at 2, or 5, or even 13, and someone moving at 20-odd for a contract with a national union. Can you really not see a difference there?

My comment had nothing to do with this Aki character, or with the Payne situation (and for the record as good as Payne is, I would prefer an irishman to have the shirt and I am not a fan of the project player thing) but ebop is trying to suggest any Kiwi who moves to another country (coach or player) is a traitor and a disgrace basically.  I don't think he put an age on it, to me it seems he isn't impressed with any Kiwi moving abroad to play/coach rugby.  Which is a bit rich to say when your team has quite a few players who are not originally New Zealanders..

Like I said though, I am not a fan of what Aki is saying here, or even with the Payne situation.  3 years is a joke.

Well I thought he was talking about being involve in national teams not just emigrating. So kiwi's who end up working for other national teams (either as players or coaches). That is very different to the kids born in the Islands and grew up in New Zealand.

Well personally I would like to know what his opinion is on players such as Dylan Hartley. Which is a similar situation as he was born in NZ and moved to England at 16 I think?

Yeah, 16. Went to live with his grandma in England and joined Worcester academy as a prop.

Sky did a thing during the ad breaks where they asked various players a question. One time it was "what did you want to be when you were a kid". A lot of cowboys, fireman, etc...then it came to Hartley and he gave a little laugh and then "an All Black". Very funny.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Joke or no joke, being born elsewhere and moving over at a young age is a different kettle of fish than being raised and developed in one place and deciding, in your adult life, to switch allegiances when realising you won't get to represent the first place.

It's why I'm okay with Faletau representing Wales but on the other hand would never want to see someone like, say, Hanno Dirksen donning the red. No country should be used solely as a platform to flaunt your int'l capabilities

I agree with this.  Which is why at U20 level I would say you should be tied to that country.

Wouldn't be adverse to this, although you'd probably have a hard time convincing some unions to move the bar from the A team down to u20 level.

Alternatively why not just extend the 'residency' period; make it five years rather than three? I believe it's how they go about it in football. In this country (GB, not sure if it's the same in Ireland or elsewhere) five years is typically the time it takes to gain citizenship if you're moving across with no familial ties. That way players can prove their commitment to any country they claim to want to represent. It makes logical sense that if you want to play for x you're also willing to formally be a part of x nation. At the very least it would deter people from exploiting the system.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well personally I would like to know what his opinion is on players such as Dylan Hartley.  Which is a similar situation as he was born in NZ and moved to England at 16 I think?

And similar situation to what?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well personally I would like to know what his opinion is on players such as Dylan Hartley.  Which is a similar situation as he was born in NZ and moved to England at 16 I think?

And similar situation to what?

Similar to many of the Pacific Islanders who move to NZ in their teenage years to commit to playing there. An example that comes to mind would be Sivivatu who moved at 15 (I think) and even played for the Pacific Islands combined national team before he played for the All Blacks in his later career. Sione Lauaki was another who played for the same combined team before later playing for the All Blacks.

Why should u20s be tied down? What if you grew up and lived in say England but you feel Irish? You then get a call up to play for the England u20 team and are then you have to choose to either accept the call up or decline in the hope of one day getting to play for Ireland.

That would not be fair as playing at u20 level is probably the main way of getting a pro contract. It is so improtant that players play at that level. There is no way you could decline the chance to play at that level.

I think I'm one of the few that doesn't see the problem with representing more than one team. Also, place of birth shouldn't count for anything. Where is the place your parents were living at the exact moment of birth of any relevance? Even worse is place of parents or grandparents birth. Other than the fact people moved around less back then it's all meaningless.

But it's a simple system, mine would be much more complicated and therefore unworkable.

Oh and the u20 would have to change it's eligibility rules (are there any?) if it was to become binding. The example of Martin Johnson was used earlier, well his only link to them was living there for a year when he played u21. It would be pretty daft if that could hold him in.

HammerofThunor wrote:I think I'm one of the few that doesn't see the problem with representing more than one team. Also, place of birth shouldn't count for anything. Where is the place your parents were living at the exact moment of birth of any relevance? Even worse is place of parents or grandparents birth. Other than the fact people moved around less back then it's all meaningless.

But it's a simple system, mine would be much more complicated and therefore unworkable.

Oh and the u20 would have to change it's eligibility rules (are there any?) if it was to become binding. The example of Martin Johnson was used earlier, well his only link to them was living there for a year when he played u21. It would be pretty daft if that could hold him in.

This is where I take issue. In the extreme, this would mean that there would no longer be any distinction between club rugby and playing for national sides. Players, in theory, can play for any club that wants them; nothing particularly wrong with that. But what significance would national borders have if you could play for, say, New Zealand against Samoa one day and then on another day Samoa against New Zealand? I can understand feeling part of more than one country, especially in this day and age, but I find the notion of players bouncing indiscriminately between countries at a whim highly distasteful.

Does it? Did I say I want is a free for all? No I didn't. I said I don't see the problem with representing more than one country. Many people have ties to multiple counties and I think it ridiculous to have then forced to pick one or the other.

Totally agree with Knowsit here. It would be an absolute farce if players could just play for whoever they want and represent multiple nations. France for example would just capitalise and buy their national team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well personally I would like to know what his opinion is on players such as Dylan Hartley.  Which is a similar situation as he was born in NZ and moved to England at 16 I think?

And similar situation to what?

Similar to many of the Pacific Islanders who move to NZ in their teenage years to commit to playing there.  An example that comes to mind would be Sivivatu who moved at 15 (I think) and even played for the Pacific Islands combined national team before he played for the All Blacks in his later career.  Sione Lauaki was another who played for the same combined team before later playing for the All Blacks.

Yes but theres a bit of a difference with movement to NZ and movement halfway across the world. Pacific Islanders move to NZ for all sorts of reasons- family reunification one major one, education and better job prospects another. You cant then isolate the odd 16 year old that eventually becomes an All Black. We have many players born and rugby raised here who opt to play for their Island nation. The amount that our rugby system does for the Island nations is huge compared to the Island players that benefit from it.

Aki's sole reason for moving is rugby. Not education, other family etc, its purely a niche in the market that is being exploited here. The current AB side, chocka with Island heritage players, were all still born here.

I think the only thing that is wrong here is that Aki thinks he has a chance of eventually making the Ireland team because that is what Lam would have told him to get him to Connacht. From the sounds of it Aki thinks he is nearly guranteed to play for Ireland once qualified.

He may get a game with the wolfhounds but will be behind the guys that are already here.

O'Aki probably backs himself, rather than actually being offered anything from the IRFU. Playing in Connaught gives him more financial security and less travel than in nz. Chris smilies and daniel kirkpatricks kids in my boys team 2 years ago. The thing that struck me was moving. Both moved out during the season, kirkpatrick to france, smilie back to taranaki. their families moved with them. I used to travel hemispheres with sport/job. I can't imagine doing it with a family. In nz you play for club (maybe) province, super 15 franchise and abs. Unless you live in a main centre you move for super 15 (this probably means relocating your family).

NZ and Samoa should immediately revoke his citizenship and deport him.

Christ - I will pay for his flight out of the country if they'll go through with it.

Which one is it GE , Samoa or NZ...or does that depend on whether he is good enough for the ABs..

Those would be the countries he is actually already qualified for - the country of his birth, heritage, up-bringing.
The counties whose citizens paid for his education via taxes and provided for his well being. The countries he is abandoning in hope of locked in qualification for a different country only interested in his rugby potential.

The countries of his origin and heritage and upbringing should see this treasonous act as a rejection of nationality - which it literally is - and strip him of passport and residency rights. He should not be allowed back intonthe country. Either one.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well personally I would like to know what his opinion is on players such as Dylan Hartley.  Which is a similar situation as he was born in NZ and moved to England at 16 I think?

And similar situation to what?

Similar to many of the Pacific Islanders who move to NZ in their teenage years to commit to playing there.  An example that comes to mind would be Sivivatu who moved at 15 (I think) and even played for the Pacific Islands combined national team before he played for the All Blacks in his later career.  Sione Lauaki was another who played for the same combined team before later playing for the All Blacks.

Rory, playing for a PI combined team shouldnt be held against a player, its a one off team made up of players who may be free from other contractual committments at the time, Surely Sione Lauaki coulnt have been a teenager when his family moved to Auckland?

blackcanelion wrote:O'Aki probably backs himself, rather than actually being offered anything from the IRFU. Playing in Connaught gives him more financial security and less travel than in nz. Chris smilies and daniel kirkpatricks kids in my boys team 2 years ago. The thing that struck me was moving. Both moved out during the season, kirkpatrick to france, smilie back to taranaki. their families moved with them. I used to travel hemispheres with sport/job. I can't imagine doing it with a family. In nz you play for club (maybe) province, super 15 franchise and abs. Unless you live in a main centre you move for super 15 (this probably means relocating your family).

Then they don't need the human rights quashing contract then do they? Plastic paddy's all round. It's appalling and against the spirit of international competition. The qualification laws should he changed specifically to target this unsportsmanlike structure.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Those would be the countries he is actually already qualified for - the country of his birth, heritage, up-bringing.
The counties whose citizens paid for his education via taxes and provided for his well being. The countries he is abandoning in hope of locked in qualification for a different country only interested in his rugby potential.

The countries of his origin and heritage and upbringing should see this treasonous act as a rejection of nationality - which it literally is - and strip him of passport and residency rights. He should not be allowed back intonthe country. Either one.

So you admit cherry picking by NZ from the islanders..

GloriousEmpire wrote:Those would be the countries he is actually already qualified for - the country of his birth, heritage, up-bringing.
The counties whose citizens paid for his education via taxes and provided for his well being. The countries he is abandoning in hope of locked in qualification for a different country only interested in his rugby potential.

The countries of his origin and heritage and upbringing should see this treasonous act as a rejection of nationality - which it literally is - and strip him of passport and residency rights. He should not be allowed back intonthe country. Either one.

   Oh come on this is happening everywhere and in most sports. Even here in Ireland our best cricket players are cherry picked by England.

Has the IRFU even come out and said this guy will play for Ireland? Connacht currently provide 1 player to the national team as it is very hard to get on the Irish team by playing with Connacht.