Bundee Aki commits to Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Bundee Aki has announced he's signed with Connacht. He will qualify for Ireland by 2018 and he's setting his eyes on making the Irish team if he can (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9938620/Bundee-Aki-targets-Irish-jersey-as-he-quits-NZ). If that doesn't work out he is also Samoa qualified.

I'm sad to see him go. He's a useful no 12 and I feel he would eventually have gained some AB's caps. However, at 24 with SBW returning next year, and a young family you can see his perspective. Good luck to him.

Here's the question. How do Irish fans see their depth at 12, both in terms of current players and young players coming through?

Notch wrote:

BigGee wrote:Its a minefield and not just in the UK. Sean Maitland could have played for Scotland, New Zealand or Samoa. Pat Lambie could have played for SA or Scotland and lets not even mention Tommasso Allen. The same people who moan about Scotland recruiting on residence or by grandparent basis, moaned like hell when he went off from our U20's to play for Italy!

As I say, don't get to worked up about it. This has been going on from the begining of rugby, russian princess playing for England. Georgian emigres playing for France, various antipodeans playing for Scotland. People have always moved for economic reasons, it is not new. I am happy with the rules as they are. By the time Josh Strauss gets to play for Scotland, he will have made a significant contribution to Scottish professional rugby and will deserve to be capped in much the same way that Jarred Payne has for Ireland!

I don't understand why people have a problem with the Tommasso Allan situation.

i personally had not problem with it, being Scottish, living in England and married to an Italian, perhaps I could see it both ways. Plenty of Scots got hot under the collar though when the roles got reversed!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Biltong wrote:Agree with BIgGee about the cosmopolitan mix these days.

Especially when you look at the UK, mother can be irish, father can be English, Grandma Scottish and Grandpa Welsh.

How to you sort that one out?

I was born in England, to an English father, Scottish mother, Irish grand father, English grand mother.
And i was brought up and raised in Liberia, West Africa from 3 months old to 11 years old.

I consider myself English.

Which illustrates the point you are, or could have been, eligable for 4 countries regardless of any rules change.

I am eligable for both Ireland and England and was in a position to gain Australian residency as a young man but came home.

Any rules change is not going to change the multiple natioanlity situations of people like us.

Dont know about you but my chances of playing for anyone are fairly minimal   

Irish Londoner wrote:Notch, my take on it is that when you are over 18 you are able to vote, get drunk, get married, join the military, join the police, and all sorts of other stuff, all of which come with consequences, then choosing your national side should be exactly the same. Very few people are given the opportunity (I would even say priviedge) to compete internationally and dipping in and out is not should not be an option.

Its not the same though. You can always leave the police and join the military, or get divorced and marry someone else. With international rugby, you can't change sides.

ha ha....agree Geoff, id have better chance playing for Liberia!!

Your right though my example highlights potential dilemas.

The reason folk got upset abut Tomasso (as he is now called) is because he jumped ship for another country rather that jumping ship from another country.

A bit hypocritical to moan at the boy leaving to play for italy but then opening your arms to welcome Sean Maitland.

Persoanlly I don't give a toot about Tomasso going to Italy. It's not as if he is the greatest fly half in world rugby and we've missed out!

Sin e (sorry can't find a fada on the keyboard) - to me the point is that it shouldn't a moveable feast - if you are multi-national qualifed then fine, but once you have picked a country then that should be the end of it - the point about the age range is that if you are old enough to get married (and divorced) then you are old enough to decide what nation you want to represent at sport. Apart from anything else it may give players from say SA pause for thought when choosing to come north for the money rather than stay and get a place in a team at home.

Irish Londoner wrote:Sin e (sorry can't find a fada on the keyboard) - to me the point is that it shouldn't a moveable feast - if you are multi-national qualifed then fine, but once you have picked a country then that should be the end of it - the point about the age range is that if you are old enough to get married (and divorced) then you are old enough to decide what nation you want to represent at sport. Apart from anything else it may give players from say SA pause for thought when choosing to come north for the money rather than stay and get a place in a team at home.

try ctrl alt and e.

GunsGerms wrote:

try ctrl alt and e.

Thanks - it works ! é

Irish Londoner wrote:Sin e (sorry can't find a fada on the keyboard) - to me the point is that it shouldn't a moveable feast - if you are multi-national qualifed then fine, but once you have picked a country then that should be the end of it - the point about the age range is that if you are old enough to get married (and divorced) then you are old enough to decide what nation you want to represent at sport. Apart from anything else it may give players from say SA pause for thought when choosing to come north for the money rather than stay and get a place in a team at home.

You may be allowed to get married U20 but that does not make it a good idea for most people!

There is nothing wrong with waiting a bit longer and making a more informed choice. That is what most of us do with the big decesions in our lives.

Guys like Bundee Aki are just contingency plans for Irish rugby. Why would you sign a foreign player with international caps when you can sign one without caps?

Either way just because he is uncapped doesnt automatically mean he will go on to play for Ireland. You never know who may have come through the ranks between now and then.

GunsGerms wrote:Guys like Bundee Aki are just contingency plans for Irish rugby. Why would you sign a foreign player with international caps when you can sign one without caps?

Either way just because he is uncapped doesnt automatically mean he will go on to play for Ireland. You never know who may have come through the ranks between now and then.

Thats it in a nutshell. You sign a player first of all because he is good and fills a need in your team. If over three years he develops and becomes a truely international player and is willing to committ to the cause then great, cap him.

There is no guarentee any project player will make the grade internationally. They may get injured, lose form or just not be good enough. They may just turn out to be a one cap wonder. Of the recent ones for Scotland even Visser has not really nailed down a starting place yet and the jury is still very much out on Nel. These players do not get promised a cap when they sign, but they will be aware that it is there at the end of three years if they play well enough to earn it. as I said before, three years can be a long time in professional rugby!

Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

Yep plus just to add the IRFU while recognising that at times our provinces need to sign foreign players because of the diversity, talent, mentoring and ideas they bring the IRFU is still wholeheartedly comitted to first and foremost developing Irish talent. I think they have got a very good balance right now.

BigGee wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Guys like Bundee Aki are just contingency plans for Irish rugby. Why would you sign a foreign player with international caps when you can sign one without caps?

Either way just because he is uncapped doesnt automatically mean he will go on to play for Ireland. You never know who may have come through the ranks between now and then.

Thats it in a nutshell. You sign a player first of all because he is good and fills a need in your team. If over three years he develops and becomes a truely international player and is willing to committ to the cause then great, cap him.

There is no guarentee any project player will make the grade internationally. They may get injured, lose form or just not be good enough. They may just turn out to be a one cap wonder. Of the recent ones for Scotland even Visser has not really nailed down a starting place yet and the jury is still very much out on Nel. These players do not get promised a cap when they sign, but they will be aware that it is there at the end of three years if they play well enough to earn it. as I said before, three years can be a long time in professional rugby!

Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

Ireland have never relied on mercenaries though. Cant see us having to rely on any going forward either. Perhaps Payne will be a caretaker for a while but thats it IMO.

IronMike wrote:Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

If he was playing for any of the other 3 provinces he would count against the total number, of NIQ, they are allowed and as such make his chances of gettign a contract renewal far less likely.
Connaught are treated differently and are allowed more so not sure it would make any real difference.

Payne will be treated like any other IQ player, playing in Ireland, next year and will be selected, or not selected, on merit.
The fact he has been given a central contract suggests he is in Schmidt plans

Interesting times ahead for Ireland.

IronMike wrote:Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

I don't think we are desperate to replace D'Arcy, Ulster alone have two guys I think can potentially be as good as he ever was.

Notch wrote:

IronMike wrote:Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

I don't think we are desperate to replace D'Arcy, Ulster alone have two guys I think can potentially be as good as he ever was.

Really who?

Darcy has been awarded 6 nations player of the tournament twice and has 80 international caps and two Lions tours. Whoever replaces him will be doing extremely well to reach similar peaks to Darcy.

3 guys saying McCloskey is better already...

It's all a bit of a mess as regards residency but having familial ties is important. My brother emigrated to NZ a few years back and has just had a baby boy. I would be disappointed if he ever became an All Black over playing for Ireland but to all intents and purposes he is a Kiwi.

Agree with Notch, Ulster alone are producing 12s at a ridiculous rate. We were down to our 5th choice (including Farrell) at one stage and he looks very, very promising

Notch wrote:

IronMike wrote:Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

I don't think we are desperate to replace D'Arcy, Ulster alone have two guys I think can potentially be as good as he ever was.

Other than Payne I dont think we are looking at anyone at all -

Olding, Marshall, Hanrahan more than cover 12
Cave, Henshaw and Payne will be looked at for 13

Bundee Aki may wish to play for Ireland - personally I think he has very very little chance.
The only other maybe in CJ Stander but to be honest - Ferris, SOB, POM, Henry, Heaslip, Henderson, at least, are in front of him andprobably Copeland and TOD - best of luck !

Ruddock too.

I think a lot of these guys declare for Ireland so they don't have to move club like Warwick was forced to do.

That must be the reason Black won't accept a call up to the USA. I know he probably considers himself Irish but he should be allowed go experience International rugby.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

IronMike wrote:Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

I don't think we are desperate to replace D'Arcy, Ulster alone have two guys I think can potentially be as good as he ever was.

Really who?

Darcy has been awarded 6 nations player of the tournament twice and has 80 international caps and two Lions tours. Whoever replaces him will be doing extremely well to reach similar peaks to Darcy.

Marshall and Olding.
Marshall has the talent to match D'Arcy and Olding has the skills to be even better

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ruddock too.

With Jack O'Donaghue, Leavy, Van de Flier and Gilsenan all coming through.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

IronMike wrote:Heres the thing, Andries Pretorius at the Blues was such a player, he burst onto the scene with good performances at 6, during a time where Wales were screaming for decent backrowers, unfortunately for him over the years Lydiate, Warburton, Shingler, Faletau, Tipuric emerged and he was rubbish in comparison. So while Ireland are desperate for a centre(s) to replace BOD and D'Arcy, perhaps in a couple of years they'll have found their own home grown talent to replace them and wont have to rely on mercenaries.

I don't think we are desperate to replace D'Arcy, Ulster alone have two guys I think can potentially be as good as he ever was.

Really who?

Darcy has been awarded 6 nations player of the tournament twice and has 80 international caps and two Lions tours. Whoever replaces him will be doing extremely well to reach similar peaks to Darcy.

I said potentially. I think Olding can be an outstanding player for Ireland, especially.

Darce was called up to the Ireland squad when he was still in school. He was also probably one of the best schools players ever. I think his potential was a lot clearer when he was their age but who knows.

I like Marshall myself but have a bad feeling he will retire young. Olding does look good too.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ruddock too.

Absolutely which only reinforces the point that, Payne apart, no one who qualifies through residency is likely to get anywhere near the Ireland team in the forseeable future.

Gilsenan is off so I assume he won't feature given how good Leavy and VDF have looked. If you look across the provinces we have some very decent youngsters coming through. A couple of years ago we couldn't buy a decent backup 10 and now we have Jackson, Madigan and Hanrahan.

There are problem positions like in any country but we do seem to be producing more talent than before. It's how we integrate them into the provinces and pro rugby that's important

Wow!

So people feel it should be born and bred, true bloods unless a player has moved for a period of time greater than the length of their playing career. How about we give any non true blooded player an asterix that they have to wear on an armband for all matches, training and sport related activities? That way we can all know who they are and treat them accordingly.

We could set it as they can only play for the country where they first picked up a rugby ball. Would that please people?

How about they must sing the national anthem(s) at the top of their voice but off key on their debut? That seemed to appease some of the opponents of Strauss becoming 'Irish'.

What if rugby isn't professional in the country a person happens to be born? What if that country no longer exists? What if the area where they are born is under dispute or switches between countries?

What if that player settles in their new country, gets married and has kids? They could have 'Irish' kids but not be allowed to play for Ireland.

I don't think anything as simplistic as picking 'x' number of years proving a certain percentage of their blood was once a certain nationality solves these problems.

But apparently '8' years and a pure blooded parent does.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Wow!

So people feel it should be born and bred, true bloods unless a player has moved for a period of time greater than the length of their playing career.  How about we give any non true blooded player an asterix that they have to wear on an armband for all matches, training and sport related activities? That way we can all know who they are and treat them accordingly.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think a lot of these guys declare for Ireland so they don't have to move club like Warwick was forced to do.

That must be the reason Black won't accept a call up to the USA. I know he probably considers himself Irish but he should be allowed go experience International rugby.

If Black played for the USA I suspect his contract would not be renewed.
I would also suggest that he is a very decent scrummager, in his own right, and after the two guys at Leinster - Healy and McGrath as good as anyone
(ducking in anticipation of incoming Munster flak !)

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Wow!

So people feel it should be born and bred, true bloods unless a player has moved for a period of time greater than the length of their playing career.  How about we give any non true blooded player an asterix that they have to wear on an armband for all matches, training and sport related activities? That way we can all know who they are and treat them accordingly.

We could set it as they can only play for the country where they first picked up a rugby ball. Would that please people?

How about they must sing the national anthem(s) at the top of their voice but off key on their debut? That seemed to appease some of the opponents of Strauss becoming 'Irish'.

What if rugby isn't professional in the country a person happens to be born? What if that country no longer exists? What if the area where they are born is under dispute or switches between countries?

What if that player settles in their new country, gets married and has kids? They could have 'Irish' kids but not be allowed to play for Ireland.

I don't think anything as simplistic as picking 'x' number of years proving a certain percentage of their blood was once a certain nationality solves these problems.

But apparently '8' years and a pure blooded parent does.

No...no one is saying anything like that bandwagon.

IronMike wrote:Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

obviously each contract is different, but with these "project" players, the contract normally goes along the line of becoming void if he opts to play of another country.  If he played for Samoa then the IRFU would cancel his central contract to play for their provence and he would become clubless and have no income until he found himself a new club to play for

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think a lot of these guys declare for Ireland so they don't have to move club like Warwick was forced to do.

That must be the reason Black won't accept a call up to the USA. I know he probably considers himself Irish but he should be allowed go experience International rugby.

If Black played for the USA I suspect his contract would not be renewed.
I would also suggest that he is a very decent scrummager, in his own right, and after the two guys at Leinster - Healy and McGrath as good as anyone
(ducking in anticipation of incoming Munster flak !)

I know Black is a very good player which is why I want to see him play for the USA and experience international rugby.

Ireland has great depth at LH though with Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne and Cronin and with guys like Buckley and Jack O'connell coming through.

I don't think so tattie or at least I'm not certain they could cancel his contract. He wouldn't have it renewed certainly but to be honest Connacht aren't privy to the same NIQ rules as the big three provinces. The more cynical among us think this signing will pave the way for Connachts own IQ 13/15 to move to another province although Pat Lam has denied that

LF4L

We do have great depth but try and getting one of those lads to move north is the issue. I would argue that by the RWC our top 4 LHs will be at 2 provinces. Given the rumours about Payne moving being better for Ireland the above situation is far from ideal

tigertattie wrote:

IronMike wrote:Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

obviously each contract is different, but with these "project" players, the contract normally goes along the line of becoming void if he opts to play of another country.  If he played for Samoa then the IRFU would cancel his central contract to play for their provence and he would become clubless and have no income until he found himself a new club to play for

I imagine a contract like that is illegal. If he signs a 3 year contract he will see out the 3 years so long as he wants to, no matter who he plays for.

His contract just may not be renewd because he will be NIE.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't think so tattie or at least I'm not certain they could cancel his contract. He wouldn't have it renewed certainly but to be honest Connacht aren't privy to the same NIQ rules as the big three provinces. The more cynical among us think this signing will pave the way for Connachts own IQ 13/15 to move to another province although Pat Lam has denied that

LF4L

We do have great depth but try and getting one of those lads to move north is the issue. I would argue that by the RWC our top 4 LHs will be at 2 provinces. Given the rumours about Payne moving being better for Ireland the above situation is far from ideal

While it's not ideal front row forward is the one position where you can get a serious amount of gametime without being first choice.It also has the slight benefit of meaning that our 1st choice props aren't flogged for their provinces.It's not just as bad as when Madigan was behind Sexton last year and in all the big games Sexton played 80 minutes or until the game over as a contest one way or the other.

I don't mind it asls but it only grates when the same people think Payne heading south is a good idea   

I think Ruaidrhí Murphy and Callum Black are decent enough options for Ulster, not world beaters, but the situation is far from grave enough to make me think the IRFU should be trying to get a loose head to move north.

After all, with the number of games the provinces have the second choices at front row will get a load of game time.

The second choice Leinster front row did really well as the second choice Irish front row in the Six Nations, maybe with the exception of the last game against France who have one of the toughest scrums in test rugby.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't mind it asls but it only grates when the same people think Payne heading south is a good idea   

Yeah in fairness that isn't a move that makes sense,Leinster have a big enough academy that we should be bringing through our own centres and full backs not taking them from the other provinces.It should be squad players who move between the provinces not 1st teamers.

The very premise of bringing a Payne into Leinster from Ulster is puzzling though. He is a 13-15 player. So at Leinster he would be mainly 13 whereas at Ulster he can be either. It doesn't make sense to me. Also, there is a year left in Darcy, so it isn't like he needs a year to bed in with Darcy for the international stage. If anything Darcy going means Marshall (hopefully surviving more than 2 matches between concussions) would be the better. So that to me would be the two main reasons for a move to Leinster are actually the best reasons for him to stay at Ulster.

tigertattie wrote:

IronMike wrote:Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

obviously each contract is different, but with these "project" players, the contract normally goes along the line of becoming void if he opts to play of another country.  If he played for Samoa then the IRFU would cancel his central contract to play for their provence and he would become clubless and have no income until he found himself a new club to play for

He wont have a central contract he will have a contract with Connaught they are different

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think a lot of these guys declare for Ireland so they don't have to move club like Warwick was forced to do.

That must be the reason Black won't accept a call up to the USA. I know he probably considers himself Irish but he should be allowed go experience International rugby.

If Black played for the USA I suspect his contract would not be renewed.
I would also suggest that he is a very decent scrummager, in his own right, and after the two guys at Leinster - Healy and McGrath as good as anyone
(ducking in anticipation of incoming Munster flak !)

I know Black is a very good player which is why I want to see him play for the USA and experience international rugby.

Ireland has great depth at LH though with Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne and Cronin and with guys like Buckley and Jack O'connell coming through.

Well Healy and McGrath I agree which why I excluded them.
Kilcoyne needs to up his scrummaging to be a contender - at this moment in time Black is a better scrummager.
Cronin seems to behind Kilcoyne at Munster so that raises issues.
As for up and comings, if Afoa is to be believed watch, Warwick - he has impressed in his 2 outings

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

IronMike wrote:Does his contract depend on him being eligible for Ireland in the future? If he decides to play for Samoa in the world cup what happens?

obviously each contract is different, but with these "project" players, the contract normally goes along the line of becoming void if he opts to play of another country.  If he played for Samoa then the IRFU would cancel his central contract to play for their provence and he would become clubless and have no income until he found himself a new club to play for

I imagine a contract like that is illegal. If he signs a 3 year contract he will see out the 3 years so long as he wants to, no matter who he plays for.

His contract just may not be renewd because he will be NIE.

That is exactly as I understand it.
The contract would not be renewed - having said that Connaught are treated differently so the situation may not arise

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think a lot of these guys declare for Ireland so they don't have to move club like Warwick was forced to do.

That must be the reason Black won't accept a call up to the USA. I know he probably considers himself Irish but he should be allowed go experience International rugby.

If Black played for the USA I suspect his contract would not be renewed.
I would also suggest that he is a very decent scrummager, in his own right, and after the two guys at Leinster - Healy and McGrath as good as anyone
(ducking in anticipation of incoming Munster flak !)

I know Black is a very good player which is why I want to see him play for the USA and experience international rugby.

Ireland has great depth at LH though with Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne and Cronin and with guys like Buckley and Jack O'connell coming through.

Well Healy and McGrath I agree which why I excluded them.
Kilcoyne needs to up his scrummaging to be a contender - at this moment in time Black is a better scrummager.
Cronin seems to behind Kilcoyne at Munster so that raises issues.
As for up and comings, if Afoa is to be believed watch, Warwick - he has impressed in his 2 outings

All I was saying is, I think we have really good options at LH and more coming through, so that if say Black wanted to go play for the USA (Just using an example), he should be able to without having to worry about getting a contract renewal because he would be NIQ. The experience could even benefit him as he could be going up against the Scottish pack this summer if he was to accept a call up.

He wants to play for Ireland? I wonder could he point it out on a map. What a joke.

I'm sure he'll be able to point it out after living there for three years, helping all of connaughts academy youngsters develop, paying tax's into the economy and having his children schooled there.

Feckless Rogue wrote:He wants to play for Ireland? I wonder could he point it out on a map. What a joke.

Of course he could. It's finding it using a satnav that's the problem.