Tally up the points.

Tote up the scores and let's see who won, because international rugby is finished.

The idea of two nations summoning their best, training them to the peak of their ability and sending them out to see who is the best has been euthanised by the administration.

As the jerry Seinfeld routine goes - home fans in the NH are now turning out to cheer on their home uniform - and even that doesn't stay constant.

To be honest I am losing interest in international rugby because we no longer see a competition of two countries competing. It's more like SANZAR versus global barbarians. It's a sham, wrapped in a crock.

I think it all started to go downhill when NZ picked the big Aussie Brad Thorn to play for them. Sad times   

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it all started to go downhill when NZ picked the big Aussie Brad Thorn to play for them. Sad times   

Nah it started with John Gallagher, followed by the failed attempt to pinch Martin Johnson. finally poaching all those islanders


I am still surprised that Australia have not gone on a tour of Tucuman schools to recruit some young Argentinian props. Ah the days of Topo Rodriguez playing his first match for australi less than a year after his last for Argentina. the good old days

It's rife LT!

In the amateur days playing for other countries was rife as people moved for jobs and playing for more than one country not uncommon:

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/representing_two_countries.html?id=1;type=class


There has always been economic migration, and now we see it rather pronounced in professional rugby. It always seems rather childish to castigate players who move to better their family situation. (After all earning potential in UK/France/NZ/Aus is much higher than in Samoa/Fiji/tonga). however pretty much everyone is agreed thatthe 3 year residency is ridiculous - for me make it 10 years, but every year before the age of 18 counts double. Most of us agree the grandparent rule is stretching it too far also - and of course it has been abused in the past.


However I always find it funny when anyone tries to claim the moral highground - whether it is Anglos attacking Welsh (and vice versa) of our SH brethren. everyone has done it.

I think it really went down hill when you guys in the NH couldn't rub two dud coaches together to make a half decent head coach for any of your club teams and then, god forbid, even your 'national' teams. Oh the shame.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it all started to go downhill when NZ picked the big Aussie Brad Thorn to play for them. Sad times   

Nah it started with John Gallagher, followed by the failed attempt to pinch Martin Johnson. finally poaching all those islanders    


I am still surprised that Australia have not gone on a tour of Tucuman schools to recruit some young Argentinian props. Ah the days of Topo Rodriguez playing his first match for australi less than a year after his last for Argentina. the good old days

Followed by Patricio Noriega. Its a good thing that the antipodeans have such a squeeky clean reputation for the good of rugby.  

ebop wrote:I think it really went down hill when you guys in the NH couldn't rub two dud coaches together to make a half decent head coach for any of your club teams and then, god forbid, even your 'national' teams. Oh the shame.

Declan Kidney was IRB world coach of the year in '09 when Ireland went the whole year unbeaten.

I think at this point Lancaster has proven he is a top coach too.

Some of the top Kiwi's in Europe like Schmidt and gatland have coached much longer in Europe than anywhere else so are as much products of the NH as anything else.

Hahaha, come on GG, stop it now

ebop wrote:Hahaha, come on GG, stop it now

We only have 4 professional teams in Ireland ebop dont forget. Coaching has been a problem in Ireland as we were quite late to transition to professionalism yet for that there are some fairly good Irish coaches around:

Anthony Foley - Munster
Declan Kidney - unemployed? (world coach of the year 09)
Eddie O'Sullivan - unemployed. (Brought Ireland to 3rd in the world in 07)
Mark McCall - Saracens (Premiership winning coach)
Conor O'Shea - Harlequins (Amlin, Premiership and LV cup winning coach)
Bernard Jackman & Mike Prendegast - Grenoble

GunsGerms wrote:

ebop wrote:Hahaha, come on GG, stop it now

We only have 4 professional teams in Ireland ebop dont forget. Coaching has been a problem in Ireland as we were quite late to transition to professionalism yet for that there are some fairly good Irish coaches around:

Anthony Foley - Munster
Declan Kidney - unemployed?
Eddie O'Sullivan - unemployed.
Mark McCall - Saracens
Conor O'Shea - Harlequins
Bernard Jackman & Mike Prendegast - Grenoble

you may be able to add Geordan Murphy to that list in a couple of years time, though still very much learning his trade.

ROG too.

poor attempt at WUMming. 2/10.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it all started to go downhill when NZ picked the big Aussie Brad Thorn to play for them. Sad times   

Which big Aussie brad thorn? I recall a big kiwi brad thorn, born in Otago.

Are you just wrong about that too?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it all started to go downhill when NZ picked the big Aussie Brad Thorn to play for them. Sad times   

Which big Aussie brad thorn? I recall a big kiwi brad thorn, born in Otago.

Are you just wrong about that too?

He was brought up in Aus. He played for Aus before NZ clearly stating he was an Aussie. Or are you suggesting he's just after money?

If you play Origin league matches you give up your right to play test footy for NZ. As Origin is bigger than anything you'll find in league. Even fatty Vaughan.

He came back to NZ as it's most kids' wish to play for NZ and actually turned down a northern tour with the ABs as he didn't feel he was ready. You'd be looking far and wide to find somebody more professional than Brad Thorn and all in vain.

Good example of the original poster ignoring a recent NZ example though isn't it? Thorn fits nicely into his role of choosing his countries, and NZ were eager to ignore the fact he had declared his allegiance to Australia already. Let's not pretend anyone is above it.

Don't think that's the best example you could use. different sports and the rules allowed it. Henry Paul played union for England as well but at least had family connections with England I think.

You could argue that once you've represented one country in any sport it means you can't represent another and I wouldn't disagree with that. But the debate is grown adults traveling to play club rugby with no connection to that new country. again no problem there. But they shouldn't be allowed to represent that country by spending just three years there. I've lived almost 9 years in Spain and nobody here would mistake me for a Spanish person.

I would say it's a good example. GE is only talking about what the rules allow after all. He's complaining of players not playing for their country and acting like 'barbarians' (I assume the rugby team). Clearly Thorn considered himself an Aussie initially but changed his mind. If NZ are above the NH in morals as he seems to be suggesting they would have insisted he no longer qualified for NZ. Or we can all play to the rules and not pretend.

Fair enough on that count.

But are you of the opinion that the rules need looking at with regards to residency? You might think that the rules are fine. I'm just curious.

Thorn was born in NZ. His family moved him to Oz when he was 8. His ambition was always to be an All Black - something which he achieved with the utmost integrity.

I don't really see any parallel there at all with say England allowing an illegal overstayer into their national side due to lack of options, or Ireland paying a young kiwi to recant his nationality to guarantee selection in three years time to represent a country he's never even visited - or Wales declaring they want a age group All Black to usurp all available welsh options after he has two good super rugby performances.

Or Stuart Lancaster himself - fourth choice interim coach after all available SANZAR coaches turned England down who has desperately copied every move of Wayne smith and Steve Hansen and filled his squad with foreigners at every single opportunity.

It seems the NH sides have a giant inferiority complex and everything south of the equator looks shinier to them.

Shame, it's running the game. I don't want to watch NZ v SANZAR cast off barbarians XV.

At least in the past it was actually Ireland, Wales, England sides we were repeatedly handing their arses. Now the international calendar looks more like an extension of super rugby to be honest.

Kia,
 
The rules absolutely need changing. I cringe at the thought of Henry Paul, Vainikolo and Hape playing for the England rugby union side. It should just not be allowed. Rugby despite its two codes is one sport.
You should NOT be allowed to change countries to suit when you change codes.
 
GE
 

Thorn was born in NZ. His family moved him to Oz when he was 8. His ambition was always to be an All Black - something which he achieved with the utmost integrity

 
So he was that determined to be an AB he was happy to play for Oz in rugby league...Australia the arch enemy!!
 
But then i forget being an AB is different you can just do what you want and its no issue...just chop and change nationalities as he wants!

God you really are stupid GE. Can you please provide some evidence that the IRFU are paying young Kiwis to recant their nationality or guarenteeing them selection?

How can you be so dumb?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Fair enough on that count.

But are you of the opinion that the rules need looking at with regards to residency? You might think that the rules are fine. I'm just curious.

I think there are instances where I don't like the results of the current rules but think it would be very hard to find a set that are fair for everyone involved. I just think national managers/coaches etc take a responsibility for their team and country. Not black and white at all.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Thorn was born in NZ. His family moved him to Oz when he was 8. His ambition was always to be an All Black - something which he achieved with the utmost integrity.

I don't really see any parallel there at all with say England allowing an illegal overstayer into their national side due to lack of options, or Ireland paying a young kiwi to recant his nationality to guarantee selection in three years time to represent a country he's never even visited - or Wales declaring they want a age group All Black to usurp all available welsh options after he has two good super rugby performances.

Or Stuart Lancaster himself - fourth choice interim coach after all available SANZAR coaches turned England down who has desperately copied every move of Wayne smith and Steve Hansen and filled his squad with foreigners at every single opportunity.

It seems the NH sides have a giant inferiority complex and everything south of the equator looks shinier to them.

Shame, it's running the game. I don't want to watch NZ v SANZAR cast off barbarians XV.

At least in the past it was actually Ireland, Wales, England sides we were repeatedly handing their arses.  Now the international calendar looks more like an extension of super rugby to be honest.

So you're happy to have team members who chased the money and played for Aus over NZ; fair enough.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Fair enough on that count.

But are you of the opinion that the rules need looking at with regards to residency? You might think that the rules are fine. I'm just curious.

I think there are instances where I don't like the results of the current rules but think it would be very hard to find a set that are fair for everyone involved. I just think national managers/coaches etc take a responsibility for their team and country. Not black and white at all.

It shouldnt have to be fair for everyone involved. It needs to be well thought out...and then set in stone. Then everyone knows the rules.

Yeah - that's not what happened at all. I think you don't understand the culture in Australasia.

It's not like, for example, paying an NZ Maori who defeated the British and Irish lions to become a lion because there were no better options across all four lions nations.

What rules would you like to see GF?

The culture of Australasia is not committing to your country then GE; fair enough.

I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

Yeah Thorn was fully committed to Australia. Before being fuly committed to NZ. I think we agree.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

That'll be the Martin Johnson you tried to poach?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah - that's not what happened at all. I think you don't understand the culture in Australasia.

It's not like, for example, paying an NZ Maori who defeated the British and Irish lions to become a lion because there were no better options across all four lions nations.

I think you'll find most of the NH fans are the ones wanting the rules changed so this doesnt happen.

The problem is changing the rules might hurt NZ's ability to select from every island down there at will....

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

You really are embarassing yourself now. Thorne didnt make a lot of difference in the grander scheme of things with Leinster. He was and always will be just a show term contractor. If anything he was lucky to be given a short term contract by Leinster.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What rules would you like to see GF?
The culture of Australasia is not committing to your country then GE; fair enough.

I think its been discussed on loads of other threads. And i dont think we'll get a perfect set of laws, but at least we can try to make it more stricter.

Something like:

1) Residency rule up to 6-8 years.
Allowances made if you are 14 or under, reduced to 4 years ( or something )

2) No grandparent links allowed.

3) If you have played for one country in rugby league or union...you must represent the same country in the other...no changing.

These would essentially stop a whole host of issues currently.

**One area that this could affect is the lower tier countries.

We need to make sure they are not punished and can increase their competitiveness.

So we need to look at something like:

If you have been selected for a top tier country (this mostly affects NZ) but only have 1 or two caps and never been picked again...have a heritage of Fijian, Samoan or tongan then maybe some rule can be put in place that after two years you can play for that heritage country...or if its in Europe something like you can play for Germany or Spain or something if you have played 1-2 game for Wales or Ireland etc.

This is just an idea however...as it still means changing countries would occur which im not easy about. But it means lower tier countries who have lose their top players after one cap with say NZ are not totally lost to them.

Jonno copped out? by retiring from test rugby? He retired from club rugby in 2005.

When the fire is out, its out.

For SH players the incentive to make 3 years pay in 1 season is a big incentive. For NH players, well its never an option so there is no Indian summer for them.... what should they do, go to the SH, play in a tougher league for half a salary and the most familiar face you'll see all season is the check in desk girl in the airport as you quadruple your airmiles for the same number of games... no thanks.

So you're saying all those years when you were telling us you were too tired were just excuses?

Geordie -  The one thing I would prefer is to rather than use a negative undertone of bans and restrictions we should be using a positive message... get these guys wanting to play for their home country by equalising the financial incentives, playing conditions and success of these sides.

Make the PIs better and more financially sound and you'll see far more expats wanting to turn out for their home nations.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

You really are embarassing yourself now. Thorne didnt make a lot of difference in the grander scheme of things with Leinster. He was and always will be just a show term contractor. If anything he was lucky to be given a short term contract by Leinster.

to be fair you are minimising brad Thorne impact in the HC that year...he was instrumental in Leinster campaign specially in the the semi final where he bailed out a 2nd row that otherwise would have struggled big time (Cullen had a positive impactt but do you honestly think that Damian Browne or Toner would have brought the same on the pitch).

fa0019 wrote:Geordie -  The one thing I would prefer is to rather than use a negative undertone of bans and restrictions we should be using a positive message... get these guys wanting to play for their home country by equalising the financial incentives, playing conditions and success of these sides.

Make the PIs better and more financially sound and you'll see far more expats wanting to turn out for their home nations.

I would love to use positive influences...but when the NZ, and specifically Australian rugby struggle on financially, how on earth can the PI's flourish.

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

You really are embarassing yourself now. Thorne didnt make a lot of difference in the grander scheme of things with Leinster. He was and always will be just a show term contractor. If anything he was lucky to be given a short term contract by Leinster.

to be fair you are minimising brad Thorne impact in the HC that year...he was instrumental in Leinster campaign specially in the the semi final where he bailed out a 2nd row that otherwise would have struggled big time (Cullen had a positive impactt but do you honestly think that Damian Browne or Toner would have brought the same on the pitch).

No Im not at all. Leinster had recently won two Heineken cups without Thorne. I'd say Nathan Hines had a far greater impact at Leinster than Brad Thorne did for example.

Toner it has since been proven was a very under rated player. He is shortlisted this year for Irelands player of the year. Leo Cullen has 3 Heineken cup medals and one losing finalist medal making him one of the most decorated Heineken cup players ever.

GE is claiming Thorne was the difference between winning the cup and not winning it. He certainly wasnt even if he did make a positive contribution.

It was an SOS he answered, as I recall it. There were no locks in the NH up to the job. From there he basically took over as coach and trainer of the forward pack, a benefit of which Ireland is still prospering.

Oh Guns, you should know better than having a sensible discussion with GE...providing facts and proof means nothing. Thorn was an AB...everything esle is irrelevant to GE.

GloriousEmpire wrote:It was an SOS he answered, as I recall it. There were no locks in the NH up to the job. From there he basically took over as coach and trainer of the forward pack, a benefit of which Ireland is still prospering.

Ask any Leinster fan and they would have much preferred to hold onto Nathan Hines than sign Thorne for 6 months. Hines lets face it is a much better lock than Thorne.

GunsGerms wrote:

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think thorn was fairly committed.

He was also committed to Leinster or whoever it was whom he tuned up and won the HK for right after the RWC win, some of those Irish boys still show the benefit of his mentoring.

I liked the way he did that rather than copping out and retiring like say, Martin Johnson did.

You really are embarassing yourself now. Thorne didnt make a lot of difference in the grander scheme of things with Leinster. He was and always will be just a show term contractor. If anything he was lucky to be given a short term contract by Leinster.

to be fair you are minimising brad Thorne impact in the HC that year...he was instrumental in Leinster campaign specially in the the semi final where he bailed out a 2nd row that otherwise would have struggled big time (Cullen had a positive impactt but do you honestly think that Damian Browne or Toner would have brought the same on the pitch).

No Im not at all. Leinster had recently won two Heineken cups without Thorne. I'd say Nathan Hines had a far greater impact at Leinster than Brad Thorne did for example.

Toner it has since been proven was a very under rated player. He is shortlisted this year for Irelands player of the year. Leo Cullen has 3 Heineken cup medals and one losing finalist medal making him one of the most decorated Heineken cup players ever.

GE is claiming Thorne was the difference between winning the cup and not winning it. He certainly wasnt even if he did make a positive contribution.

 
Toner wasnt half of the player he's now. I cannot tell what would have happened without Thorne but in that specific very tight game where it was all about small margins, am sure he had more than simple positive contribution. Leinster were desperate to replace Hines and tried the likes of Sykes before resorting to get Thorne (an enforcer like Hines although not quite as good). also look at what happened to Leinster famous controlled agression in defense and rucks the following year. in the grand scheme of things Rugby is a team effort and he was just one of the players of course.

The defense the following year was fine. We were knocked out because we had too many injuries to key players when playing Clermont at home. Leinster still won two trophies the following year.

The reality is Thorne was just a stop gap in an already really strong squad. He was indespensible and we could just as easily have been as good a unit with Mike McCarthy who joined up the following year.

Lets not forget Leinster won in Toulouse in '06 with Bryce Williams at lock and even Cameron Jowitt at 6. One man doesnt make a team and Brad Thorne certainly wasnt the difference.

If you are going to single anyone out it would probably be SOB, Sexton or Schmidt as the key men certainly not Thorne.

GloriousEmpire wrote:It was an SOS he answered, as I recall it. There were no locks in the NH up to the job. From there he basically took over as coach and trainer of the forward pack, a benefit of which Ireland is still prospering.

I heard he did it for free too, paid for his flights over and also offset his carbon emissions by planting some trees in Dublin on touching down. What a saint!

You can rewrite history to suit yourselves. But explaining the need to fly a 40 year old retired All Black out to tighten up the pack in your NH show piece club competition surely reveals a lack of genuine options. Especially when I read the stories of how he had to harden up the existing squad members who treated training like a sewing Circle (apparently) for middle aged cat loving old ladies (so I've read).

Yup those Aussies really do know their stuff.

and you believed that which surely reveals what a plank you are?

GloriousEmpire wrote:You can rewrite history to suit yourselves. But explaining the need to fly a 40 year old retired All Black out to tighten up the pack in your NH show piece club competition surely reveals a lack of genuine options. Especially when I read the stories of how he had to harden up the existing squad members who treated training like a sewing Circle (apparently) for middle aged cat loving old ladies (so I've read).

Can you explain why a 40 year old flew back to play for the highlanders given he's a) retired from test rugby and b) lock is a particular weakness in quantity for NZ...i.e. they need every position filled with someone available for NZ selection especially for future development.