Amlin Final - Saints vs Bath - 23rd May Cardiff

First topic message reminder :

Should be a good game on paper but I really can't see Saints losing this one as Bath appear to be running out of steam as the season comes to an end.
I'm sure it will be a great evening in Cardiff win or lose.

Sad fact is many fans of both Bath and Saints will not get tickets for the final as they have only been allocated a very small number of tickets if you believe this to be wrong then please sign the petition below. (typical ERC not thinking ahead!  )


Bath Rugby team to face Northampton Saints

15 Nick Abendanon
14 Semesa Rokoduguni
13 Jonathan Joseph
12 Ollie Devoto
11 Anthony Watson
10 George Ford
9 Micky Young

1 Paul James
2 Tom Dunn
3 David Wilson
4 Stuart Hooper (c)
5 Dave Attwood
6 Carl Fearns
7 Francois Louw
8 Leroy Houston

Replacements
16 Eusebio Guinazu
17 Nathan Catt
18 Anthony Perenise
19 Dominic Day
20 Guy Mercer
21 Peter Stringer
22 Gavin Henson
23 Horacio Agulla

Saints

15 Ben FODEN
14 Ken PISI
13 George PISI
12 Luther BURRELL
11 George NORTH
10 Stephen MYLER
9 Lee DICKSON
1 Alex CORBISIERO
2 Mike HAYWOOD
3 Tom MERCEY
4 Samu MANOA
5 Courtney LAWES
6 Calum CLARK
7 Tom WOOD (capt)
8 Sam DICKINSON

Replacements
16 Ross MCMILLAN
17 Alex WALLER
18 Gareth DENMAN
19 Christian DAY
20 Phil DOWSON
21 Kahn FOTUALI’I
22 James WILSON
23 Tom STEPHENSON

http://www.petitions24.com/move_the_2014_amlin_challenge_cup_to_a_bigger_venue

When Saracens play a league game at Wembley and they're in charge of marketing and ticket prices 80000+ went.  When Saracens played the European Cup semi-final against Clermont and the ERC are in charge of marketing and ticket prices 25000 went.

Shrug.

Edit: And I suggest you look at Competition Rule 2.4...the ERC pick the venues for the Semi-finals and finals

Irish Londoner wrote:Munkian, as the decision to play the Saracens semi at Twickenham was an RFU one it would be fair to assume that the decision to hold the Amlin final at CAP was a WRU as the host union.

Trust me I am no fan of the WRU but even they aren't at blame for this one surely. The ERC make the decision out of those who have submitted bids.

HammerofThunor wrote:When Saracens play a league game at Wembley and they're in charge of marketing and ticket prices 80000+ went.  When Saracens played the European Cup semi-final against Clermont and the ERC are in charge of marketing and ticket prices 25000 went.

Shrug.

Edit: And I suggest you look at Competition Rule 2.4...the ERC pick the venues for the Semi-finals and finals

Leaving out the fact that it took Sarries a whole year of marketing to sell out Wembley plus they were giving away tickets at £10.

 

so they were selling tickets for £10, nice to see a club give something back for its supporters.

Scrumpy wrote: 

so they were selling tickets for £10, nice to see a club give something back for its supporters.

worked so well and drummed up so much interest that when Sarries made the semi of the HC the amount of returning supporters was er..miniscule.   

That's because ERC charged too much!   

Greedy ERC.

ME-109 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:When Saracens play a league game at Wembley and they're in charge of marketing and ticket prices 80000+ went.  When Saracens played the European Cup semi-final against Clermont and the ERC are in charge of marketing and ticket prices 25000 went.

Shrug.

Edit: And I suggest you look at Competition Rule 2.4...the ERC pick the venues for the Semi-finals and finals

Leaving out the fact that it took Sarries a whole year of marketing to sell out Wembley plus they were giving away tickets at £10.

Well the ticket price thing is valid. If they had charged less and got more that would be better, right? After all the 'complaints' were about the atmosphere/empty seats.

As for the year thing, yes, I agree they still probably wouldn't have sold as many but perhaps more than 25000.

But the point is the ERC were in charge of marketing, ticket pricing and the choice of stadium. THAT'S why some are blaming them.

Scrumpy wrote:That's because ERC charged too much!   

Greedy ERC.

Scrumps, the tickets started at £15 so that's a whole £5 more than the Wembley game - also there were tickets availble on Groupon until the Friday before the game at £10.

And I'll reiterate, although ERC agreed to play the game at Twickenham the reason it was there was because the RFU wanted it there "to keep the money in the rugby family" - a.k.a. "we get the ground rental from ERC and make lots of extra from the shops, catering, bars and concessions".

Never heard of Groupon.

What do they do?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:That's because ERC charged too much!   

Greedy ERC.

Scrumps, the tickets started at £15 so that's a whole £5 more than the Wembley game - also there were tickets availble on Groupon until the Friday before the game at £10.

And I'll reiterate, although ERC agreed to play the game at Twickenham the reason it was there was because the RFU wanted it there "to keep the money in the rugby family" - a.k.a. "we get the ground rental from ERC and make lots of extra from the shops, catering, bars and concessions".

And the ERC agreed. Edit: as in it was 100% the ERC's choice.

Hello.
Long time reader first time poster.
I have a spare ticket for the amlin final and would rather it goes to a saints or bath fan.
Anyone interested just inbox me
Cheers

So was it a good or a bad thing Saints making it to the AP final if you are a Bath fan?

Salesi Ma'afu suspended for this weekend's Amlin Cup but free to play in the Premiership final!

1 WEEK BAN?   

Scrumpy wrote:Salesi Ma'afu suspended for this weekend's Amlin Cup but free to play in the Premiership final!

1 WEEK BAN?   

I know, as a Saints fan I too found it pretty hersh, sorry harsh (see what I did there?). Still I guess we would have rested him ready for the important game the following week anyway so I'll accept the ridiculously over the top ban just this once .

I saw that. Pretty creative, mate.

I think Ma'afu received the ban because the punches were really weak and with no technique at all. Really embarassing. There are 80 year old grandmothers who could have delivered a better package on Young's jaw than Ma'afu.

Anyone want a free ticket? got one spare and feeling in a generous mood?

Thats very kind of you Carpet, good man  

Just 1 week seriously?  Farcical.

Rugby is fast becoming a joke these days.

Bath Rugby team to face Northampton Saints

15 Nick Abendanon
14 Semesa Rokoduguni
13 Jonathan Joseph
12 Ollie Devoto
11 Anthony Watson
10 George Ford
9 Micky Young

1 Paul James
2 Tom Dunn
3 David Wilson
4 Stuart Hooper (c)
5 Dave Attwood
6 Carl Fearns
7 Francois Louw
8 Leroy Houston

Replacements
16 Eusebio Guinazu
17 Nathan Catt
18 Anthony Perenise
19 Dominic Day
20 Guy Mercer
21 Peter Stringer
22 Gavin Henson
23 Horacio Agulla

15 Ben FODEN
14 Ken PISI
13 George PISI
12 Luther BURRELL
11 George NORTH
10 Stephen MYLER
9 Lee DICKSON
1 Alex CORBISIERO
2 Mike HAYWOOD
3 Tom MERCEY
4 Samu MANOA
5 Courtney LAWES
6 Calum CLARK
7 Tom WOOD (capt)
8 Sam DICKINSON

Replacements
16 Ross MCMILLAN
17 Alex WALLER
18 Gareth DENMAN
19 Christian DAY
20 Phil DOWSON
21 Kahn FOTUALI’I
22 James WILSON
23 Tom STEPHENSON

Saints look a lot stronger imo.

Isn't Ford injured? Where's Eastmond

Ford is having surgery at seasons end, Eastmond has been grounded since his little outburst at the Ref in the Semi final.

carpet baboon wrote:Anyone want a free ticket? got one spare and feeling in a generous mood?

Carpet - Is this ticket still available by any chance (can't PM you as haven't reached the post minimum yet!)?

beshocked wrote: Just 1 week seriously?  Farcical.

Rugby is fast becoming a joke these days.

If you look at some of the other punching cases this season there is actually some consistency.

Ryan Lamb for Tigers A against Glouc A, after receiving a late tackle connects with multiple punches to the head of the Glouc tackler. He was provoked and reacted - 2 weeks, reduced to 1 week.

Koree Britton for Glouc A in the same match, ran in to get involved when it had nothing to do with him, multiple punches to the head of Lamb. No provocation and ran in, he also pleaded not guilty - 5 weeks, reduced to 4 weeks.

Jonathan Thomas when Worc played Saints at FG. Dickinson held Thomas off the ball, who then swung into his face. He was provoked and reacted - 2 weeks, reduced to 1 week.

Tavis Knoyle for Glouc against Bath. Ran in from a distance to attack Houston from behind with 1 blow landing on the head with 2 more attempts that missed. 8 weeks, reduced to 4 weeks.

If you run in you get a longer ban. If its part of a 'scuffle' with provocation it appears its low end entry point. Of those Knoyle was more harshly treated because of the ensuing melee and it was on TV. In the Ma'afu case the judge concluded he was reacting instinctively having been struck on the head by Youngs.

I can't believe that team. I really thought we would rest more, with a few academy players coming it. Guess hoping for momentum, and with Sarries having an even tougher game tomorrow.

Frankston wrote:

beshocked wrote: Just 1 week seriously?  Farcical.

Rugby is fast becoming a joke these days.

If you look at some of the other punching cases this season there is actually some consistency.

Ryan Lamb for Tigers A against Glouc A, after receiving a late tackle connects with multiple punches to the head of the Glouc tackler. He was provoked and reacted - 2 weeks, reduced to 1 week.

Koree Britton for Glouc A in the same match, ran in to get involved when it had nothing to do with him, multiple punches to the head of Lamb. No provocation and ran in, he also pleaded not guilty - 5 weeks, reduced to 4 weeks.

Jonathan Thomas when Worc played Saints at FG. Dickinson held Thomas off the ball, who then swung into his face. He was provoked and reacted - 2 weeks, reduced to 1 week.

Tavis Knoyle for Glouc against Bath. Ran in from a distance to attack Houston from behind with 1 blow landing on the head with 2 more attempts that missed. 8 weeks, reduced to 4 weeks.

If you run in you get a longer ban. If its part of a 'scuffle' with provocation it appears its low end entry point. Of those Knoyle was more harshly treated because of the ensuing melee and it was on TV. In the Ma'afu case the judge concluded he was reacting instinctively having been struck on the head by Youngs.

Even if it is consistent it's still very lenient. To be honest I think they all deserved longer bans.

Yes the ticket is still available maximus. Will work out a way to get it to you when I finish work

Scottrf wrote:I can't believe that team. I really thought we would rest more, with a few academy players coming it. Guess hoping for momentum, and with Sarries having an even tougher game tomorrow.

I agree, was hoping Lawes, Wood & Myler would at least be on the bench and maybe Heywood too if Hartley is not going to be fit for the final. Due to the lead Saracens in the league had they were able to rest players more in the lead up to these fixtures. Still hopefully we get through the game with no injuries and the momentum theory works out. One thing for sure is that Bath will come out and throw everything at Saints after how their season tapered off.

Matthius Maximus wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Anyone want a free ticket? got one spare and feeling in a generous mood?

Carpet - Is this ticket still available by any chance (can't PM you as haven't reached the post minimum yet!)?

Yes fella you should be able to email me now.

B91212 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:I can't believe that team. I really thought we would rest more, with a few academy players coming it. Guess hoping for momentum, and with Sarries having an even tougher game tomorrow.

I agree, was hoping Lawes, Wood & Myler would at least be on the bench and maybe Heywood too if Hartley is not going to be fit for the final. Due to the lead Saracens in the league had they were able to rest players more in the lead up to these fixtures. Still hopefully we get through the game with no injuries and the momentum theory works out. One thing for sure is that Bath will come out and throw everything at Saints after how their season tapered off.

Hopefully Bath shot their last bolts trying to stay up in the top four. BUt I rather doubt it. Either way I give Mallinder credit for going for it on both fronts. Simple pre-match speech: "Two matches to go. Just go out and beat the snot out of 'em".

Can't see past a Saints win here.

Bath have looked ragged as they've come into the end of the season, and even when they have a lot of possesion struggle to convert it.

Saints look equally powerful up front and have a better functioning backline at the moment. As long as Myler is kicking well they should win comfortably.

Not so sure it is cut and dried, mate. Saints are a very tired club. Mallinder finally realised the errors from past seasons and training sessions have been mostly low intenrsity recently, just to save boidies and especially the legs. That is a terribly difficult balance to get right.

True, it'll be a big ask to keep the team fresh for this game, get the intensitylevels up, and still have enough for Saracens next week.

But it's been done before so no reason you can't do it again.


Dickson starting should help a lot. Kahn has been the worst signing of the season to my mind, great on paper, crap on the field.

I bet you feel the same as I, Yappy, but one of the enjoyable parts of the season is seeing the younger or untested players show through.  For Saints Tom Stephenson is a regular centre in the making and has the potential to progress higher.  His potential is terrific.  I alsmost prefer to see Jamie Elliott and Tom Collins on the wings instead of North and Pisi.  Well, maybe instread of Pisi, anyway.  The two local Waller boys have been terrific, Seeing Nutley and Craig some back from their problems, and I think the future looks exciting.  Even young Will Hooley in his cameos replacing the unreplacable (and not 'limited') Stevie Myler is great stuff.  

Dickson is simply the perfect 9 for Saints.  Wouldn't want any 9 from any other team in Rugby.  I simply can't understand the difference in his performances for Saints and England.  For Saints his delivery is so quick and aggressive and for England, just.......not.

Hoping for the best.

Yappysnap actually I think the signing of Fotauli has helped Dickson. Having that pressure on your starting spot can push a player to new heights.

Ironically the injury to Corbisiero has helped Saints because it's aided the emergence of the Waller bros.

I think Saints playing their strongest side vs Bath is the right way to go. You must win. Any sign of having one eye on next week's final vs Saracens is not a good attitude.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap actually I think the signing of Fotauli has helped Dickson. Having that pressure on your starting spot can push a player to new heights.

Ironically the injury to Corbisiero has helped Saints because it's aided the emergence of the Waller bros.

I think Saints playing their strongest side vs Bath is the right way to go. You must win. Any sign of having one eye on next week's final vs Saracens is not a good attitude.

I am not convinced that is Saints strongest side, but might be the best side available. I think Saints go better with Day in at lock and Manoa at 8. But Mallinder hasn't been returing my calls recently.

carpet baboon wrote:

Matthius Maximus wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Anyone want a free ticket? got one spare and feeling in a generous mood?

Carpet - Is this ticket still available by any chance (can't PM you as haven't reached the post minimum yet!)?

Yes fella you should be able to email me now.

Thanks for keeping this back for me Carpet, though I got word last night that my mate's brother has managed to wrangle me a spare ticket!

You're back to square-one I'm afraid! Enjoy the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnzaZvTTH6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD3DdskaPhs

Nice win by Saints, but not nearly good enough to beat Saracens. Tackling needs to improve significantly and breakdown work was unusually sub-par..

First half was sleepwalking through a match against a good team. Second half was fundamentally better, more sound. Executed more clinically and adjusted to Bath. Ended with more territory and more possession, which was an accurate reflection of the match.

And, of course, with a bit of the now common Myler magic.

Regarding the ticketing issue I don't see why clubs in the semi-final don't "pre-sell" final tickets based on whether they get there or not. Maybe taking a 50% deposit? Then if they win their semi then fans who pre-bought can pay the balance, while club sales could be held open for an extra week or so? Then any unsold tickets go on general sale by the ERC.

As for the game, Bath played so well in the first half but the second half was a complete turnaround. Ford will rue missing those 3 kicks as he had a real chance to build on Bath's lead and put more pressure on Northampton. I thought Fearns and Louw were Bath's best players, with Joseph and Watson showing well in the backs.

I'm not sure where Bath go from this. Their first choice pack is big and strong, all good players, but they have a very raw backline no regular international players. and they just seem to be lacking something. They don't seem to know their best combinations, and you'd think a team that leaves out Eastmond and Henson would definitely have something going for them. It will be interesting to see where Sam Burgess comes into it. Maybe Devoto will move to 15 and Burgess will come in at 12? It would change their style of play, but they don't have a big carrier in the backs unless they bring in Banahan.

It was a solid performance by Northampton especially in the second half. Outside of the scrum, the big players in the tight 5 (Corbs, Lawes and Manoa) were quiet, but Myler kept them going, kicking them to an 18-16 lead before they managed to get a couple of tries from a driving maul and a intercept (made by Myler himself). I think they're an example of a team that know what they want to do. Big powerful pack, good organisers at half-backs, strong (and skillful) runners at centres and try scorers in the back three. The thing that has really changed for them is that they've improved their squad and their squad management, to the point where at the end of the season they've overturned two half-time deficits in knock-out games.

The final will be a classic encounter for me. I hope Hartley comes back with Ma'afu to bolster the front row because a game like this you want to see the best players playing.

Ford ain't ready for international rugby, saints cantered to the win with bath commiting suicide. With saints knackered with heathcote and eastmond playing we probably would have won. That's two season defining games in a row ford has played a huge part in losing for us.

It's worth keeping in mind from a Saints point of view that Corbs was not full match ready, but had to go. The original plan was for him to come off the bench later on. This match will help him for next week. And having Ma'afu back from his little brain fart will help too. I am guessing the light practises which Saints had this past week were just a bit too light for Saints to get going early enough in the match. Plus I would prefer Jamie Elliott on the wing instead of Ken Pisi.

Sirtidy, I don't think Heathcote or Eastmond would've made a difference. However, a fit Louw, Garvey and Webber probably would have. The Bath backrow were anonymous in the 2nd half, with their 1st half efforts clearly taking their toll. It was a really good effort, but Saints are a class apart at present.

doctor_grey wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnzaZvTTH6U

Not heard a Rick Derringer track for yonks. He must be getting on a bit now.He was the main man with The McCoys (Hang on Sloopy) + lead guitarist with the Edgar Winter Group, amongst other things.

It was strange, I heard the song on the way to work on Friday morning and couldn't shake it loose for the rest of the day. Seemed appropriate as a Saints supporter as the match wound down.

robbo277 wrote:
I'm not sure where Bath go from this. Their first choice pack is big and strong, all good players, but they have a very raw backline no regular international players. and they just seem to be lacking something. They don't seem to know their best combinations, and you'd think a team that leaves out Eastmond and Henson would definitely have something going for them. It will be interesting to see where Sam Burgess comes into it. Maybe Devoto will move to 15 and Burgess will come in at 12? It would change their style of play, but they don't have a big carrier in the backs unless they bring in Banahan.

Biggest issue for Bath now is the coaching, it just isn't right. Reminds me a lot of Saracens a few years back. Play fairly simple negative rugby to build a narrow lead. Then sit back and try to defend and kick their way to a win. Unfortunately all that does is cause a lot of pressure for the team, while giving the opposition plenty of ball to get back into it, exactly how Saints did.

Another parallel to Bath may actually be Northampton.  Since returning from relegation, Saints have been built around a strong forward pack.  Though with talented forwards, they have finally achieved a better balance with Myler clearly demonstrating he is oine of the best 10s in the Premiership, first as a leader then distributing to talents like Burrell, G. Pisi. Ben Foden, North, Elliott.  

They had to come together as a team, and most especially, it takes time for young 10s to mature.  There is so much more to a 10 than kicking, passing, and the occasional run.  It is truly about leadership, and it takes time and mentoring and coaching.  Some very talented players never get the mental part which is what separates the good from the very good.   Ford is a young man, give him time to develop.  There are some good players around him to help.  But the backs need a little tweak here and there and could be more settled in the centres.

The game was a carbon copy of Baths season, started well had there chances which they failed to take and then they collapsed in a heap.

Disappointing end to the season.