Can We Stop The Nonsense?

I'm assuming we can stop this Floyd is a top ten all-time great nonsense now?

Why because he struggled last night, I assume we stop the nonsense of Ali, Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Louis and everyone else in history being top ten then?

You should use that comment as a header to your posts.

hazharrison wrote:I'm assuming we can stop this Floyd is a top ten all-time great nonsense now?

Duran would have tore him a new one and Ray Leonard would have beaten him no matter what style Floyd wanted to fight.

Floyd doesn't like fighting at pace. Give him time and he's a genius but Hank Armstong would have hit him with so many shots Floyd wouldn't know what day of the week it was.

He might break the Top 30 ATG's.

How would Floyd fit into the ATG Top 10 welters?

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I'm assuming we can stop this Floyd is a top ten all-time great nonsense now?

Duran would have tore him a new one and Ray Leonard would have beaten him no matter what style Floyd wanted to fight.

Floyd doesn't like fighting at pace. Give him time and he's a genius but Hank Armstong would have hit him with so many shots Floyd wouldn't know what day of the week it was.

He might break the Top 30 ATG's.

How would Floyd fit into the ATG Top 10 welters?

Spot on - Duran would have marmalised him. Top ten welters? Who's he beaten at 147?

Chavez, N'dou, Hatton, Guerrero, C. Hernandes aren't high volume pressure fighters are they Strongy, for the few times he's struggled he's still found a way to win.

It's like suggesting Duran doesn't like movers so we can dismiss him and the Laing loss is more damaging than any single win of Mayweathers.

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I'm assuming we can stop this Floyd is a top ten all-time great nonsense now?

Duran would have tore him a new one and Ray Leonard would have beaten him no matter what style Floyd wanted to fight.

Floyd doesn't like fighting at pace. Give him time and he's a genius but Hank Armstong would have hit him with so many shots Floyd wouldn't know what day of the week it was.

He might break the Top 30 ATG's.

How would Floyd fit into the ATG Top 10 welters?

Spot on - Duran would have marmalised him. Top ten welters? Who's he beaten at 147?

What greats has he fought at any weight?

Graham Houston: "Great modern-era boxer. TBE? Not by a long shot. Not even all-time best at 147."

You know you've got a special fighter on your hands when him merely being in a fight in which there was some suspense and wonder about the result as the final bell rang (for the first time in twelve years!) is enough for some to claim that, somehow, he's been exposed and that it's proof that he's not an elite all-time great.

Haz, are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Robinson, Armstrong, Leonard, Duran etc are above having what happened to Mayweather last night happen to them? You think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the best part of 16 years after their first world title fight they could be in a close, ugly tussle against a top ten Welter who they'd normally beat with ease?

88Chris05 wrote:You know you've got a special fighter on your hands when him merely being in a fight in which there was some suspense and wonder about the result as the final bell rang (for the first time in twelve years!) is enough for some to claim that, somehow, he's been exposed and that it's proof that he's not an elite all-time great.

Haz, are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Robinson, Armstrong, Leonard, Duran etc are above having what happened to Mayweather last night happen to them? You think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the best part of 16 years after their first world title fight they could be in a close, ugly tussle against a top ten Welter who they'd normally beat with ease?

If they'd fought the guys Floyd has then no, I don't believe they'd have struggled with Devon Alexander's leftovers. Those fellas fought wars, though, and so didn't stay as pristine as long. Floyd's a good fighter but he's not as great as the fellas you mention.

Chris, it isn't like it took Robinson three fights until he fully solved the LaMotta puzzle or a fight and a half until he came to grips with Turpin. I can't think of any other boxer in history who gets such a hard time for struggling twice in his career, fights that ultimately he won.

To be fair - I think Floyd would agree with Haz, had anybody else been fighting. After all, Pac beating the P4P #3 8-4 was just an amateur performance, By that reckoning I think Floyd would agree scraping past Maidana does not a great make.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Chris, it isn't like it took Robinson three fights until he fully solved the LaMotta puzzle or a fight and a half until he came to grips with Turpin. I can't think of any other boxer in history who gets such a hard time for struggling twice in his career, fights that ultimately he won.

You're seriously comparing Floyd facing Marcos Maidana to Robinson facing Jake LaMotta?

kingraf wrote:To be fair - I think Floyd would agree with Haz, had anybody else been fighting. After all, Pac beating the P4P #3 8-4 was just an amateur performance, By that reckoning I think Floyd would agree scraping past Maidana does not a great make.

Exactly. Pacquiao's recent win over Bradley knocks anything Floyd's done for years into a cocked hat.

He's 37 (heading in Bhop direction) and still the universally recognised worlds best p4p, I thought last night was a draw, but I wouldn't write his entire career off with it.

Yes I am Haz, he's the widely considered greatest of all time but I don't see him getting this nonsense thrown at him for struggling against somebody who lets be honest isn't great, shall we call him Basora's leftovers.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Chavez, N'dou, Hatton, Guerrero, C. Hernandes aren't high volume pressure fighters are they Strongy, for the few times he's struggled he's still found a way to win.

It's like suggesting Duran doesn't like movers so we can dismiss him and the Laing loss is more damaging than any single win of Mayweathers.

No great fighters in that list, he even made Hatton come up to 147 to fight him. As Freddie Roach said "Hatton's just not that good."

Duran had a serious dedication problem, it's easier to judge him by what he did in the big fights. Compare the Duran from the first Leonard fight to Maidana last night, a cheap bottle of merlo versus a rich smooth borolo.

jimdig wrote:He's 37 (heading in Bhop direction) and still the universally recognised worlds best p4p, I thought last night was a draw, but I wouldn't write his entire career off with it.

No-one's looking to write off his career but there isn't one sensible judge who'd rate him top ten all- time. This guy hand picks his opponents.

Did sugar ray leonard destroy every fighter in his late 30s. Did Joe Louis knock out marciano at similar age? How did Larry Holmes fair against Tyson at similar age? Roy Jones was also brilliant against Joe At 39. Did Sugar Ray Robinson not lose fights later in his career?

Point am making is all the greats have holes in their records, even the greatest. I have more respect for Floyd now after this fight. He struggled badly but still won and showed a lot of heart and determination in there against a bigger younger fighter. Still top 10 for me.

So we let Duran off for not being dedicated do we, that's ok because i'll simply say Mayweather didn't have the motivation against Maidana and Castillo hence why he struggled.

jimdig wrote:He's 37 (heading in Bhop direction) and still the universally recognised worlds best p4p, I thought last night was a draw, but I wouldn't write his entire career off with it.

If you breakdown his fights though he really has cherry picked his opponents and built them up through the media to make people think they are better than what they are. Floyd even admits on a regular basis that he picks the easiest opponent who will make the most money.

AdamT wrote:Did sugar ray leonard destroy every fighter in his late 30s. Did Joe Louis knock out marciano at similar age? How did Larry Holmes fair against Tyson at similar age? Roy Jones was also brilliant against Joe At 39. Did Sugar Ray Robinson not lose fights later in his career?

Point am making is all the greats have holes in their records, even the greatest. I have more respect for Floyd now after this fight. He struggled badly but still won and showed a lot of heart and determination in there against a bigger younger fighter. Still top 10 for me.

Bigger? Maidana isn't even a real welterweight. Not anywhere close to top ten.

He was 15lbs heavier Haz, there are only two real Welterweights in the division and that's Pacquiao and Mayweather the rest are drainers.

AdamT wrote:Did sugar ray leonard destroy every fighter in his late 30s. Did Joe Louis knock out marciano at similar age? How did Larry Holmes fair against Tyson at similar age? Roy Jones was also brilliant against Joe At 39. Did Sugar Ray Robinson not lose fights later in his career?

Point am making is all the greats have holes in their records, even the greatest. I have more respect for Floyd now after this fight. He struggled badly but still won and showed a lot of heart and determination in there against a bigger younger fighter. Still top 10 for me.

Ever wonder why so many current pro's are able to operate at world level long past the long established sell by date. I don't wonder about it, the evidence is overwhelming.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He was 15lbs heavier Haz, there are only two real Welterweights in the division and that's Pacquiao and Mayweather the rest are drainers.

Mayweather's the 154 champ. He was the bigger man in there.

What has Mayweather being the 154lb champion got to do with size, god forbid being outboxed by Billy Conn at heavyweight.

165 pounds on the night so he was a tad bigger. Look guys every body is entitled to there opinion. He is certainly not the best ever but I still think he is close. Every great has a style they struggle with. It's obvious Floyd doesn't like fit and aggressive fighters that can fight 3 mins of every round against him.

Pac man also struggles with counter punchers with good reflexes and movement. It's why it's such a great fight between him and floyd. Both would struggle with the others style. The fact that floyd doesn't look invincible makes this fight huge again. They need to make it happen soon before one of them loses.

Strongback wrote:

AdamT wrote:Did sugar ray leonard destroy every fighter in his late 30s. Did Joe Louis knock out marciano at similar age? How did Larry Holmes fair against Tyson at similar age? Roy Jones was also brilliant against Joe At 39. Did Sugar Ray Robinson not lose fights later in his career?

Point am making is all the greats have holes in their records, even the greatest. I have more respect for Floyd now after this fight. He struggled badly but still won and showed a lot of heart and determination in there against a bigger younger fighter. Still top 10 for me.

Ever wonder why so many current pro's are able to operate at world level long past the long established sell by date.  I don't wonder about it, the evidence is overwhelming.

Choosing your opponents can't hurt either. He's never fought one great fighter in their prime - no great fights - no wars. I maintain that if Oscar fought Floyd's opposition he'd be unbeaten, too. He'd just have more knockouts.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:So we let Duran off for not being dedicated do we, that's ok because i'll simply say Mayweather didn't have the motivation against Maidana and Castillo hence why he struggled.

Floyd is a dedicated trainer, Duran was dedicated to the snow flake. The best way to judge a fighter is in his biggest fights against his best opponents.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What has Mayweather being the 154lb champion got to do with size, god forbid being outboxed by Billy Conn at heavyweight.

He's the more established fighter at 147 and above.

Strongback wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:So we let Duran off for not being dedicated do we, that's ok because i'll simply say Mayweather didn't have the motivation against Maidana and Castillo hence why he struggled.

Floyd is a dedicated trainer, Duran was dedicated to the snow flake.  The best way to judge a fighter is in his biggest fights against his best opponents.

EXACTLY.

The best way to judge a fighter is using his whole career rather than picking and choosing what's relevant based on your preconceived argument.

Robinsons biggest fights were at middleweight but he lost almost as many as he won in those, Gavilan aside none of his Welterweight fights would be regarded as big.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What has Mayweather being the 154lb champion got to do with size, god forbid being outboxed by Billy Conn at heavyweight.

He's the more established fighter at 147 and above.

Does that make him bigger then?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The best way to judge a fighter is using his whole career rather than picking and choosing what's relevant based on your preconceived argument.

Robinsons biggest fights were at middleweight but he lost almost as many as he won in those, Gavilan aside none of his Welterweight fights would be regarded as big.

Is that because there wasn't an All Access?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What has Mayweather being the 154lb champion got to do with size, god forbid being outboxed by Billy Conn at heavyweight.

He's the more established fighter at 147 and above.

Does that make him bigger then?

Yes.

It's more down to the fact the biggest names he faced were at Middleweight and above, because if we're only using somebody's biggest fights we can then dismiss last night.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What has Mayweather being the 154lb champion got to do with size, god forbid being outboxed by Billy Conn at heavyweight.

He's the more established fighter at 147 and above.

Does that make him bigger then?

Yes.

So that means that Broner when he faced DeMarco was the smaller man then despite being massive in comparison?

AdamT wrote:

Pac man also struggles with counter punchers with good reflexes and movement. It's why it's such a great fight between him and floyd. Both would struggle with the others style.

I swear three weeks ago the actual line was

mobilemaster8 wrote:He never had a risk. He was/is leagues above Pacquiao.

Catchweight, you do make me smile mate.

Whether it was 5 years ago via UD, or in the next year via UD.....its irrelevant.

Just goes to show.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's more down to the fact the biggest names he faced were at Middleweight and above, because if we're only using somebody's biggest fights we can then dismiss last night.

Mayweather doesn't belong in the same sentence as Robinson. That's the first guy he's faced at their optimum weight and in their prime in years and look at the result.

Floyd could make 140 easy just like manny. Fact that he's winning belts at higher divisions proves his greatness.

I know mayweather fan boys are sickening just like Pac man fans but don't discredit him. He's lost one fight in 18 years as a pro vs Castillo, who he then beat in a rematch. He has never been stopped and has maybe only been hurt a few times as well. Granted his power isn't amazing at the higher weights but that is obviously because he is a natural junior welterweight. Floyd's accuracy I the best in the modern era as is his defence along with Whittaker. Still an atg for me.

AdamT wrote:Floyd could make 140 easy just like manny. Fact that he's winning belts at higher divisions proves his greatness.

I know mayweather fan boys are sickening just like Pac man fans but don't discredit him. He's lost one fight in 18 years as a pro vs Castillo, who he then beat in a rematch. He has never been stopped and has maybe only been hurt a few times as well. Granted his power isn't amazing at the higher weights but that is obviously because he is a natural junior welterweight. Floyd's accuracy I the best in the modern era as is his defence along with Whittaker. Still an atg for me.

He's a modern great but he hasn't fought enough quality men to be considered all-time.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The best way to judge a fighter is using his whole career rather than picking and choosing what's relevant based on your preconceived argument.

Robinsons biggest fights were at middleweight but he lost almost as many as he won in those, Gavilan aside none of his Welterweight fights would be regarded as big.

Do we take SRR and Ezzard Charles out of the Top 10 for all their career losses.

Floyd picked a fighter in Maidana he thought he couldn't lose to and he ended up with a fighter that could exploit his weaknesses. Since I first saw Mayweather commentators have always said the key to beating Floyd is pressure. Maidana had more in his arsenal than Mayweather reckoned on.

Brings it home why Floyd has never fought Pacquiao.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's more down to the fact the biggest names he faced were at Middleweight and above, because if we're only using somebody's biggest fights we can then dismiss last night.

Mayweather doesn't belong in the same sentence as Robinson. That's the first guy he's faced at their optimum weight and in their prime in years and look at the result.

A minute ago you were saying Maidana wasn't even a real Welterweight now you're saying it's his optimum weight, make your mind up.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Chris, it isn't like it took Robinson three fights until he fully solved the LaMotta puzzle or a fight and a half until he came to grips with Turpin. I can't think of any other boxer in history who gets such a hard time for struggling twice in his career, fights that ultimately he won.

You're seriously comparing Floyd facing Marcos Maidana to Robinson facing Jake LaMotta?

Fair enough, Haz. Maidana is no La Motta. You've got us there.

So let's look at some of the opponents who Maidana is, at the very least, the equal of who also caused a prime, bang in form Robinson problems.

Artie Levine, according to some of those in attendance, more or less sparked Robinson in the fourth round and the only reason Ray survived was because the referee either a) ballsed up the count as he initially took Levine to the wrong neutral corner, not starting the count until he'd returned to Robinson who'd already been on the deck for a good six or seven seconds, or b) spent a relative eternity wiping down Robinson's gloves and inspecting his state after he'd got up from the knockdown, by which point reportedly 21 seconds or so had passed since he hit the deck.

Reports vary, but either way the fact is that Robinson, 25 years old and on the verge of his first world title, came dangerously close to disaster against a fighter who clearly wasn't on his level.

Luc Van Dam wasn't any great shakes either, but gave Robinson a torrid time of it before Ray got out of jail by ending the fight with some errant punches to Van Dam's groin (luckily, film of this one is available!). Most thought that Robinson had had a shocker on the night and got lucky - he left the ring to mostly boos. This was a Robinson who was still very much in his peak (not yet won the Middleweight title).

I guess Robinson struggling so badly against guys like Levine and Van Dam, good and respected contenders but definitely not world beaters or greats, means he's not a top ten man either?

I thought he nearly lost the second Castillo as well, and got a little lucky no one in the Castillo camp knew how close it was on the cards after ten

Haz I'm basing it on his talent. Look his resume is maybe top 20-30. He certainly could of fought better challenges recently. His talent though imo is certainly top ten.

If you don't have him top fifteen I can understand but having him under top 30 is a joke.

88Chris05 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Chris, it isn't like it took Robinson three fights until he fully solved the LaMotta puzzle or a fight and a half until he came to grips with Turpin. I can't think of any other boxer in history who gets such a hard time for struggling twice in his career, fights that ultimately he won.

You're seriously comparing Floyd facing Marcos Maidana to Robinson facing Jake LaMotta?

Fair enough, Haz. Maidana is no La Motta. You've got us there.

So let's look at some of the opponents who Maidana is, at the very least, the equal of who also caused a prime, bang in form Robinson problems.

Artie Levine, according to some of those in attendance, more or less sparked Robinson in the fourth round and the only reason Ray survived was because the referee either a) ballsed up the count as he initially took Levine to the wrong neutral corner, not starting the count until he'd returned to Robinson who'd already been on the deck for a good six or seven seconds, or b) spent a relative eternity wiping down Robinson's gloves and inspecting his state after he'd got up from the knockdown, by which point reportedly 21 seconds or so had passed since he hit the deck.

Reports vary, but either way the fact is that Robinson, 25 years old and on the verge of his first world title, came dangerously close to disaster against a fighter who clearly wasn't on his level.

Luc Van Dam wasn't any great shakes either, but gave Robinson a torrid time of it before Ray got out of jail by ending the fight with some errant punches to Van Dam's groin (luckily, film of this one is available!). Most thought that Robinson had had a shocker on the night and got lucky - he left the ring to mostly boos. This was a Robinson who was still very much in his peak (not yet won the Middleweight title).

I guess Robinson struggling so badly against guys like Levine and Van Dam, good and respected contenders but definitely not world beaters or greats, means he's not a top ten man either?

Pithy argument - Robinson fought great fighters at their best and beat them.

Floyd hand picks his opponents every time out. If he was on Robinson's schedule do you really believe he'd be unbeaten?

Imagine SRR being given 3 months prep and a 30 mil payday before facing those guys - he'd have killed them.

AdamT wrote:Haz I'm basing it on his talent. Look his resume is maybe top 20-30. He certainly could of fought better challenges recently. His talent though imo is certainly top ten.

If you don't have him top fifteen I can understand but having him under top 30 is a joke.

No argument on talent - one of the best I've ever seen. But that's a different argument.

To be fair to Robinson, he fought a helluva lot more regularly than Floyd, which makes off nights more palatable.

Strongback wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Chavez, N'dou, Hatton, Guerrero, C. Hernandes aren't high volume pressure fighters are they Strongy, for the few times he's struggled he's still found a way to win.

It's like suggesting Duran doesn't like movers so we can dismiss him and the Laing loss is more damaging than any single win of Mayweathers.

No great fighters in that list, he even made Hatton come up to 147 to fight him.

Regardless of the "is Floyd a top 10 ATG" argument, this comment is utter folly. Mayweather was the champion, Hatton (already a 147lb champ) was the challenger. Since when has the champion moved down to the challengers weight to accommodate him? Hatton called Floyd out, he knew he'd have to go to 147 to get the fight. Did SRL drag Duran up from 135 to 147? If so does that make him a cherry picker? Plenty of reasons to dig Floyd out, this is not one of them.