Pro12, Aviva and Top14 and the European club game.

Over the last number of years I've been a strong supporter of the rabo league and the upward trend in quality that the league has produced year on year - likewise I'd usually have been quick to point out that the AP in particular is overrated by the English fans and media.

However this has been a really disappointing season for the Rabo. The decline of the Welsh regions and Treviso has really impacted the quality of the league and top 4 race. Glasgow apart the main 3 Irish teams have walked into the play offs despite having fairly mediocre seasons by their own standards.

Traditional title/Play off challengers the Ospreys and Scarlets have been decimated by the disarray in Wales and Connacht haven't lived up to expectations based on their signings.

If you compare the intensity and quality of the end of season run in for the Rabo with the AP and Top14 then I think we should be very concerned about the future of the provinces and European rugby outside England and France.

Am I being two pessimistic or are we seeing a new era emerge with European club rugby set to be dominated by the likes of Saracens and Toulon henceforth?

I think we are definately on the cusp of a new era all round. The BT money will make a huge difference to the AP clubs at the top end and combined with investment from people with large pockets may lead to a change at the top of domestic and European rugby.
To me rugby is at the same point football was in the early 1990's with the influx of money and the start up of the Champions League and like football the top end clubs are going to get richer and more dominant, Saracens are set fair to be the Man United of the next decade, all the pieces are falling into place, the stadium, the squad, the background staff, I can see them dominating the AP and Europe for several years.
On the other hand Leicester seem to be more like Liverpool, they have had a very long period at the top and stay around there but will go into decline - at least by thier previous standards. Northampton are the Arsenal in this, well run, good squad and will always be thereabouts but not quite top, Quins are Spurs, bit flash and good in periods but likely to be consistently inconsistent, Bath are potentially another Manchester City; most of the rest are the Evertons and Aston Villas who will chase a lower end European place or a cup run but don't trouble the big boys and down at the bottom there are the West Hams and Leicesters who yo-yo up and down and whose season is based on the principle of not being last.
The TOP 14 is quite obviously the rugby equivalent of the Spanish or Italian leagues, buying up the stars of the world in an environment where everyone has a price.
The Rabo is at crossroads  - one way will see the Rabo as the Bundeslegia, a model based on developing home grown talent, local involvement and teams coming in from left field to give the richer leagues the odd bloody nose, the other route takes it down the Scottish league route, with a couple of well established teams and everyone else making up the numbers and chasing third place.

This year the ratio of points scored to points conceded for Saracens is significantly greater than for any other team in world rugby. That doesnt account for differences in quality across different leagues but if they do win the HC they will have as much claim as any team to be the best.

It will be interesting to see if they can maintain that level.

I disagree with a lot of the detail, though I think the general trend is right.

For my money, this was one of the dullest AP seasons in years. The relegation battle was pretty much decided before Christmas, Saracens were established as top playoff seeds some weeks ago and there was only one game of real significance on the final weekend. By AP standards, it has not been the close competition we are used to.

The Top 14 continues to be close, but that seems to be as much down to French teams' apparent prioritisation of home form over away form as any other factor.

I haven't followed enough of the Rabo this season to have a firm view on it, but it can hardly be a surprise that the disruption of the European negotiations and the conflict between WRU and RRW will have had a deleterious effect on the picture.

My guess would be that the BT deal and the new European competitions will even things up a bit at a European level. In the short term, it will probably make the most difference to the English clubs but over time the expected growth in the money from the tournament plus the rigours of qualification should have benefits for Rabo teams. The French will continue to be French regardless, I expect.

Don't underestimate the impact of the Challenger's Cup - with a better (and more diverse) mix of teams in it, it has the potential to be more of a draw and I'd expect teams to take it quite seriously. It'll raise the bar over time.

In the AP, it's likely to be a close season next time around. Sarries are clearly out in front (though we will have to see if they can maintain their squad depth under the salary cap as contracts come up for renewal), but Saints and Tigers both have solid squads and strength in depth.

I'd not characterise Quins as inconsistent - we have had 21 players with long term injuries this season (thought it was 19, but someone pointed out that the two academy locks were crocked as well) and only in the last few games has COS been able to pick the same team for more than one game in a row. Given that, a Top 4 finish is a pretty good achievement. Next season we will have much more experience throughout the squad and - fingers crossed - the injury situation can't be as bad again.

Bath and Sale are also likely to be challenging for the Top 4 slots, Wasps, Gloucester and Exeter should all be close behind. London Irish are rebuilding and may join Newcastle and Bristol (assuming they are the ones promoted) at the lower end of the table - or might challenge for RCC spots if their team gels.

Attendances are rising on average in the Pro12 I think- and for nine of the teams. Attendances are falling for Munster, Scarlets and Treviso though.

The biggest problem for the Rabo is the WRU-RRW conflict.

Treviso's crowds has actually rose by 1.9% this year which is a suprise. Leinster, Ulster, Glasgow and Zebre have all had an increase in tickets sold this year.

The problem is this, is then negated by the Ospreys and Blues who have had a large decrease in sales and also Munster whose support is quickly fading.

why is Munster support going down? is that because most supporters are in Cork and dont want to go to Limerick anymore?

I don't know. There's not the most money in the area and maybe people are picking and choosing their games more. There's still a voracious appetite for Heineken Cup rugby and the traveling support they get in that competition is phenomenal but maybe after laying out all that expense to travel to France and England an the rest of it people can't afford to go every week as well.

I don't understand Munster's fall in attendance, i really don't. They haven't lost any of their key players and have had decent results (semi in the Hcup and rabo is more than just decent actually).

As for the quality of the rugby in the rabo, i thought it was pretty good, sure the table may indicates it was a walk in the park for the top 5 but it wasn't always the case, the Leinster-Edinburgh game being a prime example. For me the big let down is Treviso who went from 7th to worst team in the league (worst attack and worst defence as far as tries are concerned).

The Pro12 have had a flat year. But that being said, Munster lose in a HCup semi final away to Toulon, Leinster lose in a quarter final away to Toulon and Ulster lose in a HCup quarter final at home to Saracens playing with 14 men. All three defeated by the two teams that will contest the final. And all three would feel confident of progressing further if they had 15 men for the full 80 minutes and those fixtures had been at home. Connacht have flattered to deceive this season with some notable wins but some serious poor performances. I'm a sceptic on Lam for his ability to develop the youngsters but he seems well able to recruit strongly. Hopefully those experienced recruits can teach the kids. If they do, then Connacht might start putting in the performances they do against Leinster more consistently over the full season.

Glasgow are the gem of the current season in the Pro12. They have been performing in the league like that for a couple of seasons now but haven't brought that level of form into the HCup so don't necessarily get the credit they should from Top14 and Jeff fans. Edinburgh are a mess. The season was a write-off and I reckon there is fundamental rebuilding to be carried out in the off-season, watch that space.

Wales is a joke. The regions don't want to be with the Union. They get courted by the PRL and were willing to throw the pro12 to the curb. They have suffered by poor attendances in parts and that doesn't come across well on the tv coverage. The Blues have gone with an artifical pitch... which keeps good footing and encourages open running rugby.... but that isn't their strength... so they are giving the advantage to the opposition every home game. Scarlets have fallen back and in a season when those 3 have been poor, the Dragons should be heavily criticised for not taking full advantage this year.

Italy.... where do you start? They lose 1 team representation in Europe but will no longer have the additional buy-in charge for being part of the pro12. Treviso and FIR were fighting over money but that seems resolved now. If a club like Treviso isn't even sure if it will be around next season it was always going to impact the performances by players during the season. Zebre are still bottom, but the 1 win - many losses has improved a bit in the current year.

Munster support base falling is down to pure economics/marketing and the lack of development of a following outside the bandwagon years....Leinster are streets ahead for the following reasons...

1. Opened up the Season tickets to all punters from an early stage and grew a loyal following...simple...

For munster the problems are as follows.
1. During the good years we stuck to the Club model (clubs get first dibs on the tickets more importantly the HC tickets for home games, second come the MSRC and third joe public. This lead to great attendances during the good years but with a narrow enough base. Once the economic downturn came the home support fell away because they had not built a good model for increased support from the non traditional rugby base (with all the talk that its the ordinary man in Munster who follows rugby the reality is the exact opposite). This has changed but Munster lost a big opportunity where Leinster didnt.
2. I am from Cork so therefore biased but the Shiny shed in Limerick which was a great development skewed things in one direction... but.....Cork city and County has a pop of 500K, Nearly 50% of the population of Munster....now am not advocating shutting up shop in Limerick but the lack of 1st class rugby in Cork has affected the supporter base. The proposed redevelopment of Musgrave park will be a start to redevelop the support base in Cork. The need for major games in Cork is a must if they want to improve attendances.

ME-109 wrote:Munster support base falling is down to pure economics/marketing and the lack of development of a following outside the bandwagon years....Leinster are streets ahead for the following reasons...

1. Opened up the Season tickets to all punters from an early stage and grew a loyal following...simple...

For munster the problems are as follows.
1. During the good years we stuck to the Club model (clubs get first dibs on the tickets more importantly the HC tickets for home games, second come the MSRC and third joe public. This lead to great attendances during the good years but with a narrow enough base. Once the economic downturn came the home support fell away because they had not built a good model for increased support from the non traditional rugby base (with all the talk that its the ordinary man in Munster who follows rugby the reality is the exact opposite). This has changed but Munster lost a big opportunity where Leinster didnt.
2. I am from Cork so therefore biased but the Shiny shed in Limerick which was a great development skewed things in one direction... but.....Cork city and County has a pop of 500K, Nearly 50% of the population of Munster....now am not advocating shutting up shop in Limerick but the lack of 1st class rugby in Cork has affected the supporter base. The proposed redevelopment of Musgrave park will be a start to redevelop the support base in Cork. The need for major games in Cork is a must if they want to improve attendances.

I know Musgrave has gotten some poor opposition visiting compared with TP (Edinburgh, Dragons, Zebre, Scarlets) but the attendances have been all sub 8k, whereas Thomand attendances have been all at least 14k. Is there really the appetite for rugby in Cork?

Might be me being optimistic but I think the Blues attendance will rise next season, they're building together a tidy squad and will be receiving new sponsorship from BT Sport for the Arms Park. Its been hard to support the Blues for the past few seasons, but things are looking up. Generally we do better in the Heineken Cup in terms of attendances.

For Munster it used to be mission impossible to get hands on HCup or inter-pro tickets. The last 2 years, even in Dublin I've been offered tickets fairly consistently. The clubs were taking their full allocation of tickets in order to secure the HCup ticket sales revenues. They scrambled to keep the status quo the first 3-4 years of the recession but now the clubs can't fund the thomond regular season ticket sales in the hope of making money on hcup tickets.

Also, how can you look for someone to opt for a season ticket or multi-match ticket to Musgrave Park if you only put poor fixtures in there from Thomond.

And does the improvement in hurling in Limerick and Clare in recent years impact on households ability to follow those teams in the league and all-ireland while also trying to attend games in Thomond? Surely that stretches family budgets too much also.

By Team:

Leinster Rugby 19649
Ulster Rugby 13347
Munster Rugby 12740
Cardiff Blues 9452
Dragons 8156
Ospreys 7936
Scarlets 7321
Glasgow Warriors 5559
Connacht Rugby 4758
Edinburgh Rugby 4382
Benetton Treviso 3700
Zebre 2147

By Venue:

AVIVA Stadium 51700
Millennium Stadium 30411
Royal Dublin Society 16444
Thomond Park 15983
Ravenhill Stadium 13347
Liberty Stadium 7936
Arms Park 7356
Parc y Scarlets 7321
Musgrave Park 7064
Rodney Parade 5930
Scotstoun Stadium 5559
Sportsground 4758
Murrayfield 4715
Stadio Monigo 3700
Meggetland 3494
Stadio XXV Aprile 2147

Nice work Mickado. I presume Ulster might have been adversely impact by the finishing up of construction of the new stands? Must have reduced capacity for certain games during the year.

Mickado wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Munster support base falling is down to pure economics/marketing and the lack of development of a following outside the bandwagon years....Leinster are streets ahead for the following reasons...

1. Opened up the Season tickets to all punters from an early stage and grew a loyal following...simple...

For munster the problems are as follows.
1. During the good years we stuck to the Club model (clubs get first dibs on the tickets more importantly the HC tickets for home games, second come the MSRC and third joe public. This lead to great attendances during the good years but with a narrow enough base. Once the economic downturn came the home support fell away because they had not built a good model for increased support from the non traditional rugby base (with all the talk that its the ordinary man in Munster who follows rugby the reality is the exact opposite). This has changed but Munster lost a big opportunity where Leinster didnt.
2. I am from Cork so therefore biased but the Shiny shed in Limerick which was a great development skewed things in one direction... but.....Cork city and County has a pop of 500K, Nearly 50% of the population of Munster....now am not advocating shutting up shop in Limerick but the lack of 1st class rugby in Cork has affected the supporter base. The proposed redevelopment of Musgrave park will be a start to redevelop the support base in Cork. The need for major games in Cork is a must if they want to improve attendances.

I know Musgrave has gotten some poor opposition visiting compared with TP (Edinburgh, Dragons, Zebre, Scarlets) but the attendances have been all sub 8k, whereas Thomand attendances have been all at least 14k. Is there really the appetite for rugby in Cork?

That is because over the years with the exception of Scarlets all the worst teams in the Rabo have played in Cork and we usually played a development team which really pi..ed people off at times. Musgrave could easily get 12K + (as it used in the past - pre dilapidation) for a top quality side. With regards to an appetite for rugby..just to note Cork city and county has more Senior clubs than limerick, the two top playing rugby schools in the province. Pre the shiny shed the amount of people going to a rugby game in Cork for Munster would have been the same as if not more than in Limerick. The move to Thomond as the primary stadium was made because it was the least run down of the two. Of course there is an appetite but they need to develop the stadium (that is starting), get more of the bigger games in Cork and start marketing it properly. The thing with the <8K in Musgrave is the fact that the Limerick crowd now feel they dont need to travel to Cork while the Cork crowd make up a substantial part of the crowd in Limerick.

whocares wrote:why is Munster support going down? is that because most supporters are in Cork and dont want to go to Limerick anymore?

Emigration and migration to the East Coast for work. Its very obvious in the AIL where Dublin clubs are now really doing well, largely due to a lot of Munster born players now living in Dublin. People have to pick and choose their games now that they go to. Its not just the ticket sales, but the travelling costs & time as well.

I don't think Munster have lost any supporters though - Jersey sales are still the best in the UK & Ireland and the Munster Supporters Club were able to hand over a cheque for 140,000 euros to the Munster Academy this week.

Poorfour wrote:My guess would be that the BT deal and the new European competitions will even things up a bit at a European level.

You see I think the opposite will happen - gross income may increase but the relative split now is less per Rabo team, who depend on the European money more than the AP and Top14 sides, who already have increasingly lucrative TV deals.

I fear this is a watershed season. The year when the game shifted towards a model were the rich will pull away... maybe the year where the European game went truly professional.

As an Irish fan, with a bias towards the rabo/celtic teams I fear for the future and how in the long term we can compete....especially without a welsh buy in to the pro12.

Until such time as the Pro12 becomes financially lucrative enough that the European cup is a financial bonus rather than the cash cow the pro12 will have a very weak hand at the negotiating table against the AP and Top14 in the new set up , with the Unions decreasingly influential.

What I think we'll see is an acceleration of what is already upon us - the growing on field dominance of the richest English and French sides and an inability of everyone else to compete for domestic or European club silverware a la soccer.

According to Gerry Thornley in the Irish Times today, the new European Cup may have difficulty attracting sponsors as it is damaged goods because of all the fighting. Heineken are not too keen.

Also mentioned Heineken maybe the new Pro12 sponsor.

rodders wrote:

Poorfour wrote:My guess would be that the BT deal and the new European competitions will even things up a bit at a European level.

You see I think the opposite will happen - gross income may increase but the relative split now is less per Rabo team, who depend on the European money more than the AP and Top14 sides, who already have increasingly lucrative TV deals.

I fear this is a watershed season. The year when the game shifted towards a model were the rich will pull away... maybe the year where the European game went truly professional.

As an Irish fan, with a bias towards the rabo/celtic teams I fear for the future and how in the long term we can compete....especially without a welsh buy in to the pro12.

Until such time as the Pro12 becomes financially lucrative enough that the European cup is a financial bonus rather than the cash cow the pro12 will have a very weak hand at the negotiating table against the AP and Top14 in the new set up , with the Unions decreasingly influential.

What I think we'll see is an acceleration of what is already upon us - the growing on field dominance of the richest English and French sides and an inability of everyone else to compete for domestic or European club silverware a la soccer.

This may be true (and I hope that things find a balance) but the numbers that have turned up on here recently seem to suggest that the Irish provinces are better funded than the AP teams. However stretched the reading of those numbers are the Irish are certainly not poor relations. Unfortunately you can say the same for the other pro12 teams

Sin é wrote:

whocares wrote:why is Munster support going down? is that because most supporters are in Cork and dont want to go to Limerick anymore?

Emigration and migration to the East Coast for work. Its very obvious in the AIL where Dublin clubs are now really doing well, largely due to a lot of Munster born players now living in Dublin. People have to pick and choose their games now that they go to. Its not just the ticket sales, but the travelling costs & time as well.

I don't think Munster have lost any supporters though - Jersey sales are still the best in the UK & Ireland and the Munster Supporters Club were able to hand over a cheque for 140,000 euros to the Munster Academy this week.

So Sin É when was the last time you were in Musgrave park (if ever)?

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

whocares wrote:why is Munster support going down? is that because most supporters are in Cork and dont want to go to Limerick anymore?

Emigration and migration to the East Coast for work. Its very obvious in the AIL where Dublin clubs are now really doing well, largely due to a lot of Munster born players now living in Dublin. People have to pick and choose their games now that they go to. Its not just the ticket sales, but the travelling costs & time as well.

I don't think Munster have lost any supporters though - Jersey sales are still the best in the UK & Ireland and the Munster Supporters Club were able to hand over a cheque for 140,000 euros to the Munster Academy this week.

So Sin É when was the last time you were in Musgrave park (if ever)?

What are you getting at?

Just curious..am not going to have a go at you if you havent...just that the make up of the crowd in Thomond has a large % of people from Cork. I wouldnt blame people for not going to Musgrave park given the dross games that are usually served up with development teams. If they want to grow the number of people attending games in both Thomond and Musgrave they need to get their finger out.

ME-109 wrote:Just curious..am not going to have a go at you if you havent...just that the make up of the crowd in Thomond has a large % of people from Cork. I wouldnt blame people for not going to Musgrave park given the dross games that are usually served up with development teams. If they want to grow the number of people attending games in both Thomond and Musgrave they need to get their finger out.

I know you are not having a go at me (its years since I've been in Musgrave and reason is probably down to the fact that going to Musgrave would be a 500km round trip).

I made the point that its not just the price of the tickets, its the travelling costs as well. People don't have as much money nowadays.
(Judging by Cork Con's AIL results, Cork has a few emigrants as well).

I think they are making the effort with the new development. It would be better to have more games in Musgrave (and I'm sure the Indo will be encouraging this). Wait until the new stand is developed and I bet you will see more games in Cork (which would benefit sale of season tickets in Limerick as with fewer games, the season tickets would be cheaper).

lostinwales wrote:
This may be true (and I hope that things find a balance) but the numbers that have turned up on here recently seem to suggest that the Irish provinces are better funded than the AP teams. However stretched the reading of those numbers are the Irish are certainly not poor relations. Unfortunately you can say the same for the other pro12 teams

No we aren't and the ability of Ulster to retain Pienaar, Leinster O'Brien and the recent signings for Connacht in particular shows we can still attract and retain top players - 3 teams in the HEC QF and Munster in the SF shows we aren't far off.

However Irelands teams can't survive by themselves in a lopsided Rabo. Only Glasgow has provided resistance this year and this is unsustainable. Thomond park was half full to see Ulster's 3rd string beat a disinterested Munster team in the final round of the league.    

The over dependency over the past decade on the now defunct European cup plus the growing distain for the league and regions in Wales has come home to roost.

I feel very dystopic about the whole thing, even the unshakable belief that Ireland will win back to back 6N and the RWC next season doesn't change my feelings that the end of all things is upon us.

Sin é wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just curious..am not going to have a go at you if you havent...just that the make up of the crowd in Thomond has a large % of people from Cork. I wouldnt blame people for not going to Musgrave park given the dross games that are usually served up with development teams. If they want to grow the number of people attending games in both Thomond and Musgrave they need to get their finger out.

I know you are not having a go at me (its years since I've been in Musgrave and reason is probably down to the fact that going to Musgrave would be a 500km round trip).

I made the point that its not just the price of the tickets, its the travelling costs as well. People don't have as much money nowadays.
(Judging by Cork Con's AIL results, Cork has a few emigrants as well).

Meh...Con will always be there or thereabouts...the team has changed significantly over the last year or two and Con will always hoover up the up and coming talent from other clubs. They won the Bateman cup and will probably be well geared up for next season Dolphin have steadied the ship and are doing well enough. I dont think the emigrant thing is such a big issue down here.

Mickado wrote:By Team:

Leinster Rugby 19649
Ulster Rugby 13347
Munster Rugby 12740
Cardiff Blues 9452
Dragons        8156
Ospreys        7936
Scarlets        7321
Glasgow Warriors 5559
Connacht Rugby 4758
Edinburgh Rugby 4382
Benetton Treviso 3700
Zebre                2147

By Venue:

AVIVA Stadium        51700
Millennium Stadium 30411
Royal Dublin Society 16444
Thomond Park        15983
Ravenhill Stadium        13347
Liberty Stadium        7936
Arms Park                7356
Parc y Scarlets        7321
Musgrave Park        7064
Rodney Parade        5930
Scotstoun Stadium 5559
Sportsground        4758
Murrayfield                4715
Stadio Monigo        3700
Meggetland                3494
Stadio XXV Aprile        2147

What are these figures ??

They are average attendance figures for the year per team. They are also attendance figures per venue (Leinster in the Aviva & RDS, and Munster in Musgrave & Thomond).

Dragons Pro 12 attendances are usually between 4k and 6k. They had about 7.5k for Munster and 8.5k for the boxing day game against Blues but that is the only attendance over 8k.

They had an average for Europe of less than 5k

The only game outside that is the MS Judgement day game where around 30,000 saw the 4 sides in 2 games which is obviously skewing the figures considerably.

Maybe it isn't for this thread, it probably isn't for this thread, who am I kidding it isn't for this thread.... say the Scots don't get their second team in order, the Welsh continue to regress at region level and Italy doesn't develop. What are the nuclear options for IRFU? If the Pro12 wasn't to survive (though I for one think it will manage better than that), surely the Irish provinces are a far more marketable commodity for a Jeff or Top14 to absorb than an Italian, Scottish or Welsh outfit. Just throwing it out there.

It is definitely for this thread.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Maybe it isn't for this thread, it probably isn't for this thread, who am I kidding it isn't for this thread.... say the Scots don't get their second team in order, the Welsh continue to regress at region level and Italy doesn't develop. What are the nuclear options for IRFU?  If the Pro12 wasn't to survive (though I for one think it will manage better than that), surely the Irish provinces are a far more marketable commodity for a Jeff or Top14 to absorb than an Italian, Scottish or Welsh outfit.  Just throwing it out there.

Or what are the nuclear options for the 6Ns?

I can't foresee any realistic circumstances of a domestic Irish involvement with the English that doesn't inlcude the others. I also can't see any realistic circumstances that the English would take part in a ring fenced British and Irish structure that discounts the Championship pro clubs. Any such agreement would have multiple tiers with around 20 English teams. Potentially a NFL style confrence system or 3 tiers. Then if the Welsh, Scots (except Glasgow), Italians end up in the 3rd tier then so be it. Any future developments in England will be more inclusive for the Championship sides not less.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Maybe it isn't for this thread, it probably isn't for this thread, who am I kidding it isn't for this thread.... say the Scots don't get their second team in order, the Welsh continue to regress at region level and Italy doesn't develop. What are the nuclear options for IRFU?  If the Pro12 wasn't to survive (though I for one think it will manage better than that), surely the Irish provinces are a far more marketable commodity for a Jeff or Top14 to absorb than an Italian, Scottish or Welsh outfit.  Just throwing it out there.

Or what are the nuclear options for the 6Ns?

I suppose it would be that when the Jeff and Top14 are more powerful than their Unions, through tightly controlled contracts, expensive release clauses, and the excessive amount of foreign mercenaries, England and France will no longer be able to field international Test teams. This will result in both sides no longer being in the 6Ns. With the 4N moniker already taken by the SH competition, the remaining Unions will be forced to try and hold on to the 6Ns title, inviting Russia and Romania to join in (I'll assume Russia includes Ukraine and Georgia within it's borders at that stage).

A curious thread this one what with rodders being dystopic and Mick once again providing unsupported evidence and generally the Irish (not unusually) hijaking the thread.

I'm feeling dyspeptic about the slow, inevitable decline into soccerisation.

The Rabo (have they got a new sponsor yet?) has suffered a terrible mauling over the past two years in which they began shoulder to shoulder in a solid front and ended with internecine squabbling.

The Jeff and the T14 have both submitted themselves to proper cheating of their own rules and seemingly there's no sign of anyone trying to enforcing their own rules.

As for attendances, nobody can really tell as ST holders are always counted in the figures even if they are dead. I'd love to see actual turnstile numbers announced but that won't ever happen.

83,000 for the Sarries world club record attendance game sort of sum it all up when the ground was strangely devoid of spectators after half time.

I'm falling out of love with the pro game.

Good job there is a massive amateur game to follow then.

And a huge amount to worry about for the successful amateur players and their parents , HoT.

HammerofThunor wrote:I can't foresee any realistic circumstances of a domestic Irish involvement with the English that doesn't inlcude the others.  I also can't see any realistic circumstances that the English would take part in a ring fenced British and Irish structure that discounts the Championship pro clubs.  Any such agreement would have multiple tiers with around 20 English teams. Potentially a NFL style confrence system or 3 tiers.  Then if the Welsh, Scots (except Glasgow), Italians end up in the 3rd tier then so be it. Any future developments in England will be more inclusive for the Championship sides not less.

Curious as to how you draw that conclusion.

As far as I can see, PRL, either with witting or unwitting connivance of their RFU puppets on PGB, have manoeuvred the Championship into becoming threefold feeder clubs for them. Feeding them a pretty tough training regime for their academicians, feeding them a pool of late developing players, and feeding them the possibility of sugar-daddied teams to replace their poorest performing members.

RFU's previous regime clearly had no idea and little concern over what to do with the second tier, and the current regime haven't shown much improvement. GK IPA double header kicking off the season a week later than AP may superficially seem a good innovative idea, but the consequences of a lop-sided 23 game season and the promotion playoffs ending in June is daft, plus the cost of hiring neutral grounds. Add in that the GK IPA sponsorship only effectively replaces the previous RFU subsidy, meaning no added dosh for the clubs.

All this with a Championship representative on PGB - a single voice amongst a dozen, and still MSC that is not open and transparent, parachute payments and inequitable P share dividends that maintain a virtual 13 team ring-fence (Bristol's incompetence mucked that up for the recent seasons). I see no encouragement that RFU will curtail PRL's belittlement of the Championship.

I'm convinced that the previous RFU regime engineered the format of the Championship to mimic the AP, with the intention of using it as a threat during Euro/EPS negotiations to swap them into europe. The only encouragement that I do see is that now that Europe appears to be done and dusted for the near future, the format may evolve into something that suits the clubs better.

That would be to presuppose a degree of intellectuality on behalf of both the PRL executives and the RFU, Dubbya.

The PRL tend to just make it up as they go along to keep the lid shut on unwelcome interlopers and ignore the malpractices of their incumbents whereas the RFU like to imagine that they are thoughtful and effective sages on the World stage.

But it turns out (again and again) that they are both but snake oil peddlars.

Not much different from anywhere else really.

Just a tad more successful than most.

W, just because the Bedford Chairman or CEO or something has said they will be more involved in the next round of discussions. I can see a cut off below maybe the 8 most solid championship clubs but I can't see one above it. Most likely thing is it'll stay largely the same.

Hammer weren't the PRL about to let the Welsh regions into the AP, completely against the wishes of every tier below them in English rugby? And destroy the Pro12 as an insignificant consequence? The PRL are in the game of making more money for their members. And they won't be bending over backwards for any Championship club who's in their way.

Rodders, the French and English will always pull in more cash because their league TV deals will always be bigger. That's an advantage they'll always have. But the Irish compete with them. The provinces get bigger cash injections from the union than anyone else, have fairly large numbers of supporters, and are well run by competent people. The regions have none of these things.

I can't see any change in Welsh fortunes on the horizon. Wales produce great talent but it's no use to the Pro12 if they're playing France. I think the formation of the regions as basically clubs was a huge mistake. But what to do about it? Like an unwanted child, do the WRU decide, despite the mistake, it's our fault they came into existence and therefore our responsibility to pay for then and care for them? Or do they abandon them on England's doorstep and run away to make real regions? Or try force them to admit that they've been failures their whole lives and hand over more control to papa union? There doesn't seem to be any proper solution from any corner in Wales at the moment.

The Irish always prioritised the European Cup over the league. We'll be even more reliant on those 6-9 European Cup games a year than ever.

HammerofThunor wrote:W, just because the Bedford Chairman or CEO or something has said they will be more involved in the next round of discussions. I can see a cut off below maybe the 8 most solid championship clubs but I can't see one above it. Most likely thing is it'll stay largely the same.

Irvine may well be more involved - serving the biscuits as well as pouring the tea.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Hammer weren't the PRL about to let the Welsh regions into the AP, completely against the wishes of every tier below them in English rugby? And destroy the Pro12 as an insignificant consequence? The PRL are in the game of making more money for their members. And they won't be bending over backwards for any Championship club who's in their way.

Rodders, the French and English will always pull in more cash because their league TV deals will always be bigger. That's an advantage they'll always have. But the Irish compete with them. The provinces get bigger cash injections from the union than anyone else, have fairly large numbers of supporters, and are well run by competent people. The regions have none of these things.

I can't see any change in Welsh fortunes on the horizon. Wales produce great talent but it's no use to the Pro12 if they're playing France. I think the formation of the regions as basically clubs was a huge mistake. But what to do about it? Like an unwanted child, do the WRU decide, despite the mistake, it's our fault they came into existence and therefore our responsibility to pay for then and care for them? Or do they abandon them on England's doorstep and run away to make real regions? Or try force them to admit that they've been failures their whole lives and hand over more control to papa union? There doesn't seem to be any proper solution from any corner in Wales at the moment.

The Irish always prioritised the European Cup over the league. We'll be even more reliant on those 6-9 European Cup games a year than ever.

The opinion of English lower level tiers was not published, if even gauged, so the answer to your question is not known. However, it seems likely to me that from National One level downwards, clubs would have been more concerned at the determination of the ERC faction to exclude and isolate English teams from European competitions than at the possible formation of an AngloWelsh league in response to that draconian measure. (that's my opinion, not in any way wishing that to be considered as a fact)

I can't disagree with the lack of bending backwards, though.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Rodders, the French and English will always pull in more cash because their league TV deals will always be bigger. That's an advantage they'll always have. But the Irish compete with them. The provinces get bigger cash injections from the union than anyone else, have fairly large numbers of supporters, and are well run by competent people. The regions have none of these things.

I can't see any change in Welsh fortunes on the horizon. Wales produce great talent but it's no use to the Pro12 if they're playing France. I think the formation of the regions as basically clubs was a huge mistake. But what to do about it? Like an unwanted child, do the WRU decide, despite the mistake, it's our fault they came into existence and therefore our responsibility to pay for then and care for them? Or do they abandon them on England's doorstep and run away to make real regions? Or try force them to admit that they've been failures their whole lives and hand over more control to papa union? There doesn't seem to be any proper solution from any corner in Wales at the moment.

The Irish always prioritised the European Cup over the league. We'll be even more reliant on those 6-9 European Cup games a year than ever.

Feckless I think Ireland will struggle to keep on par in the longer term, or at least it will be very difficult - there are internal factors which we can control - player development, facility improvement - coaching etc. .... I don't want to be to Irish centric (thanks Portnoy ) here.

The point is that to some degree the future of the provinces is tied to the domestic games of the other pro12 teams and the sustainability and quality of that league.

To be overly dependent on the revamped European structures and competitions is a dangerous position for us to be in and one that can only be avoided by the growth of the rabo and commitment by the other stakeholders to build a league comparable in quality to the other leagues and one of relative financial viability.

This season has been a big blow to that and to quote Portnoy a massive step forward in the soccerisation of rugby. I'm pretty dismayed at what has occurred and find the farcical new European competition pretty depressing. This is further exasperated by the damp squib run in to a mediocre rabo season on and off the field.

The gap between the leagues is widening and I think that will accelerate next year. I can only see an Anglo-French dominance in the club game henceforth.

The only upside for us is that in the short/medium term I think the club game is hurting the French national side and this will benefit Ireland in the next few seasons,

If its competition you are look at, there are at least 4 very competitive teams and I suspect that the Ospreys will get their mojo back, so it will be five. Thats 8 very competitive games per annum in the Pro 12 and another 7-10 competitive games in Europe. (Toulouse will be a 4th tier seed in next year's tournament, so that should be an interesting group).

Connacht could be very competitive next season, bearing in mind who they are bring in now. Maybe this is the route the IRFU are pursuing to resource Connacht so that they can provide strong opposition as well.

It seems that Nacifora is keen to start a 7's Team which could help a lot in player development.

Can I just say when our Internationals were available P15 W11 L3 D1 without P7 W2 L5, this was for the Ospreys in the Rabo, besides the interference in the HC for the AI, the problem for us and I suspect the rest of the Welsh Regions is the finances to secure decent players when the Internationals are away, this is where our £3.5M cap is hurting us, as was illustrated by the Rabo dream team selected by reporters of the 3 Celtic Nations (why NOT Italians) and Dan Biggar selected as Player of the year by all the Captains and Ambassadors of each team in the League, individually we are as good as any other team, it's the depth that is the problem, the extra Million we will get out of the HC will help, and hopefully a reasonable settlement of the player release to Team Wales can be negotiated, we get paid aprox half back from the WRU that we pay the individual player, this is just not right, it HAS to change.

That's just conjecture sin - the Ospreys, Scarlets and Treviso - all decent teams on paper...as are Connacht have been garbage.

There's plenty of paper quality - it's on the field were there's an issue... even the interpros aren't seeing the intensity of previous seasons.

Leinster v Munster is becoming a prep game for the HEC rather than a winner takes all derby.

Until the WRU gets its house in order and Edinburgh and Treviso deliver on their potential the league will decline rather than improve. This was the least competitive season for a while in terms of the play offs.

rodders, it was the same in the AP this year

wayne wrote:Can I just say when our Internationals were available P15  W11  L3  D1 without P7  W2  L5, this was for the Ospreys in the Rabo, besides the interference in the HC for the AI, the problem for us and I suspect the rest of the Welsh Regions is the finances to secure decent players when the Internationals are away, this is where our £3.5M cap is hurting us, as was illustrated by the Rabo dream team selected by reporters of the 3 Celtic Nations (why NOT Italians) and Dan Biggar selected as Player of the year by all the Captains and Ambassadors of each team in the League, individually we are as good as any other team, it's the depth that is the problem, the extra Million we will get out of the HC will help, and hopefully a reasonable settlement of the player release to Team Wales can be negotiated, we get paid aprox half back from the WRU that we pay the individual player, this is just not right, it HAS to change.  

That salary cap is self imposed though Wayne. The regional owners don't seem to be putting any funds in these days. The 4 pro clubs decided on that cap between them, partly to try and blackmail the WRU in to handing over more funds (that they do not have).