Nail your colours to the mast: Froch vs Groves 2 predicitons.

First topic message reminder :

Just over a week now to the big British rematch, how does everyone see this one going ? Your truthful offical prediction, you'll have no place to hide when you log on after the fight.

Whoever gets the correct outcome wins a grand, prizemoney to be donated by the Mods.

I see a tepid affair, much more strategic and cautious by both fighters, with Groves winning a comfortable decision something like 117-110. With a decider to happen in November.

Cheers Rodders

Arguing the same thing here. Froch starts slowly, Froch gets hit.

That isn't lack of preparation or taking an opponent lightly, that's just Carl Froch. There's nothing to suggest he'll change habits of a lifetime overnight.

Nico, he has rob McCracken whispering in his ear when he goes out, after carl asks him what he should do when the bell rings.

Many successful people including many top sportsmen are riddled with self doubt... It's what gets them out of bed every morning and training harder. His record is irrelevant, its possible to know you're very good at what you do, but still have self doubt as a human being. Both he and his trainer have admitted it, though carl implies its in the past... But then he doesn't like to show weakness. Truth is it's actually a strength, that's helped get him where he is. It shows up in his personality, with all this 'respect me' international superstar stuff he comes out with. The kind of stuff that people more comfortable with themselves leave for others to say rather than say.

Dipper Brown wrote:Arguing the same thing here. Froch starts slowly, Froch gets hit.

That isn't lack of preparation or taking an opponent lightly, that's just Carl Froch. There's nothing to suggest he'll change habits of a lifetime overnight.

Getting knocked down in the first round is not Froch though, were he getting knocked down all the time you may have a point but when it's such a rare occurrence it would suggest getting caught cold caused the knockdown.

Dipper, I think everyone's in agreement, Groves has the all tools to exploit frochs weaknesses, in fact, he has everything to make froch look like a clueless novice.

The big the question is will Carl get to him, eventually.

milkyboy wrote:Nico, he has rob McCracken whispering in his ear when he goes out, after carl asks him what he should do when the bell rings.

Many successful people including many top sportsmen are riddled with self doubt... It's what gets them out of bed every morning and training harder. His record is irrelevant, its possible to know you're very good at what you do, but still have self doubt as a human being. Both he and his trainer have admitted it, though carl implies its in the past... But then he doesn't like to show weakness. Truth is it's actually a strength, that's helped get him where he is. It shows up in his personality, with all this 'respect me' international superstar stuff he comes out with. The kind of stuff that people more comfortable with themselves leave for others to say rather than say.

Most coaches and trainers tell their fighters what to do its what they get paid for,its the same reason a coach tells his fighter whether his boxing well, not throwing enough punches or needing to up his work rate,doesn't mean a lack of self confidence that goes for any fighter throughout history.

My point is he got knocked down because of his low guard, which is the same in every round of every fight. He gave Groves an opportunity which he took with a great shot, it just happened to be in round 1. I don't think it's getting caught cold. He was getting nailed at the end of the 6th. Groves right hand didn't miss all night.

That's not lack of preparation, that's not getting caught cold. That's a fundamental clash of styles that favours Groves counter punching. I agree the timing of the knockdown influenced the rest of the fight but I don't think Froch was caught cold.

I think you're missing the point here, you hit the nail on the head with your own comment, the right hand was landing all night but it was only in the first round that it dropped him, that not tell you something?

3fingers wrote:Dipper, I think everyone's in agreement, Groves has the all tools to exploit frochs weaknesses, in fact, he has everything to make froch look like a clueless novice.

The big the question is will Carl get to him, eventually.

My thoughts exactly, think novice is a harsh word though, makes him look pretty bad though.

The message I will leave you with is this; Groves' style is all wrong for Froch. For this reason Groves had great success in the majority of the previous fight. Nothing to do with mind games/ psychological approach to the fight. Froch being absolutely hard as nails overcame the assault and won the fight (premature stoppage another argument for another time). I believe this time Groves will have too much for him. We'll find out next week.

Also I think any psychological weaknesses we see in Froch are purely personal. I think he feels under appreciated and has an enormous chip on his shoulder. From a professional point of view, I don't think it affects him in the ring at all. He doesn't fight with a low guard because he doesn't respect Groves, it's just the way he's always fought, with his face. Take a punch to land a punch.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I think you're missing the point here, you hit the nail on the head with your own comment, the right hand was landing all night but it was only in the first round that it dropped him, that not tell you something?

So he didn't put him down with one shot? That's true but he badly hurt Froch multiple times in that fight, far more than Froch hurt him.

That was probably the worst beating Froch has had his entire career, he was taking shots absolutely flush and was not rolling or blocking most of them either.

How much will take have taken out of him, I won't be surprised if Froch stops Groves late, but I'm betting that Groves will finish him before that happens. Providing he doesn't do something utterly stupid like trade with him for the first three rounds, like he keeps saying he will

HH, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the caught cold thing. Healthy debate as always, team. Enjoy the fight and we'll reconvene a week tomorrow to pick the bones out of the fight. Until then

Groves to stop Froch on his feet in rounds 7-9. Got a feeling it will be a bit of a let down with a young fresh fighter giving the faded 37 yr old a proper pasting, but Froch's toughness will keep him on his feet longer than will be good for his health.
My other prediction is after the fight Izzi will burn all his Cobra endorsed into the trenches warrior under pants in disgust that young Groves has slapped his hero silly.

He badly hurt him once and that was the first round, at no other point was he able to put a dent in him, rocking somebody's head back isn't hurting them.

I'd say in both Kessler fights he took a worse beating, he was just landing more in return to compensate for it.

He threw the kitchen sink at Froch but couldn't stop him so don't see it being a possibility in the rematch, if doesn't go the distance then Groves will be the one off his feet.

Dipper Brown wrote:The message I will leave you with is this; Groves' style is all wrong for Froch. For this reason Groves had great success in the majority of the previous fight. Nothing to do with mind games/ psychological approach to the fight. Froch being absolutely hard as nails overcame the assault and won the fight (premature stoppage another argument for another time). I believe this time Groves will have too much for him. We'll find out next week.

Also I think any psychological weaknesses we see in Froch are purely personal. I think he feels under appreciated and has an enormous chip on his shoulder. From a professional point of view, I don't think it affects him in the ring at all. He doesn't fight with a low guard because he doesn't respect Groves, it's just the way he's always fought, with his face. Take a punch to land a punch.

Froch's jab is a big weapon of his, he couldn't really land it at all and he isn't going to stop carrying the left hand low, its his style.

Froch either leads with an uppercut or a jab, neither of which he had much success with, his chance is for his chin to some how hold up and catch Groves late. If he dominates and blasts him out, I will be shocked.

Re the first round knock down. He walked onto a great shot, maybe it's the first time someone's opened up on him like that in the first round. We can't say definitively its down to one thing or another.

One thing that is being overlooked in all this 'he took the punches in the rest of the fight stuff' is that regardless of that, the iron chinned warrior was on Queer Street in the first. If the punch lands 30 seconds earlier does he survive the round?

'Caught cold' comes from not warming up properly but never happens in modern boxing... When we use it we're referring normally that a fighter just hasn't got his rhythm going yet and is easier to hit. I've never heard a scientific explanation that suggests your chin gets better when your heart rate's up.

He got knocked down because he got over excited after landing an uppercut and crossed his feet, meaning he was essentially an off balance southpaw being caught flush by an orthodox fighter with the outside foot.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He badly hurt him once and that was the first round, at no other point was he able to put a dent in him, rocking somebody's head back isn't hurting them.

I'd say in both Kessler fights he took a worse beating, he was just landing more in return to compensate for it.

He threw the kitchen sink at Froch but couldn't stop him so don't see it being a possibility in the rematch, if doesn't go the distance then Groves will be the one off his feet.

Just because he didn't go down doesn't mean he wasn't hurt.... the 6th round was an absolute shellacking, never seen him take shots like that before, he was staggering back on his heels.

He was taking a beating in the sixth but was he seriously hurt, I don't think so, the force of a punch can push you back but Froch was still attempting to move forward through the punches.

You are not wrong BF88, Froch was certainly hurt in the 6th and more than once.
It seems to not come into peoples thinking how much damage that fight would have done to an on the slide 37yr old, it wont be the biggest shock to me if his punch resistance has dropped after taking such a beating.

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Nico, he has rob McCracken whispering in his ear when he goes out, after carl asks him what he should do when the bell rings.

Many successful people including many top sportsmen are riddled with self doubt... It's what gets them out of bed every morning and training harder. His record is irrelevant, its possible to know you're very good at what you do, but still have self doubt as a human being. Both he and his trainer have admitted it, though carl implies its in the past... But then he doesn't like to show weakness. Truth is it's actually a strength, that's helped get him where he is. It shows up in his personality, with all this 'respect me' international superstar stuff he comes out with. The kind of stuff that people more comfortable with themselves leave for others to say rather than say.

Most coaches and trainers tell their fighters what to do its what they get paid for,its the same reason a coach tells his fighter whether his boxing well, not throwing enough punches or needing to up his work rate,doesn't mean a lack of self confidence that goes for any fighter throughout history.

Nico. I'm quoting McCracken. He said Carl suffers from self doubt and nerves... And always asks him what he's supposed to do, just as the bell goes for round one. Rob is your wizard of oz.

It's not a criticism of frich. Like I said its probably made him the fighter he is. My point was, it makes it extremely unlikely to me that he doesn't train properly for groves or anyone for that matter.

hogey wrote:You are not wrong BF88, Froch was certainly hurt in the 6th and more than once.
It seems to not come into peoples thinking how much damage that fight would have done to an on the slide 37yr old, it wont be the biggest shock to me if his punch resistance has dropped after taking such a beating.

It might just be me seeing things, but I don't remember many fights who take 6-7 flush punches in a combination without rolling or blocking them, I don't even like watching that exchange. Watch his head, his neck is snapping all over the place.

I wouldn't be surprised if Froch's punch resistance has gone a bit after the first fight.

Man I wish it was tonight, I'm so psyched right now!!!!!

John Bloody Wayne wrote:He got knocked down because he got over excited after landing an uppercut and crossed his feet, meaning he was essentially an off balance southpaw being caught flush by an orthodox fighter with the outside foot.

He was caught square john, but if it was just a balance thing, we wouldn't have been shouting timber when he went down and laughing at his chicken dance when he got up.

For me being caught cold is about not being switched on mentally or aware of the others guys power very early in a fight, typically the first round. As the fight wears on you, somehow, get used to the other guys power. I'm sure how that happens, it just does. I'm sure hagler said something along the lines of he got used to Hearns' power.

Ofcourse if he get caught with a concussive punch at anytime you're going down.

hogey wrote:You are not wrong BF88, Froch was certainly hurt in the 6th and more than once.
It seems to not come into peoples thinking how much damage that fight would have done to an on the slide 37yr old, it wont be the biggest shock to me if his punch resistance has dropped after taking such a beating.

Not suggesting at 37 Froch can't age overnight,but the 3 fights before Groves, Froch didn't look like a fighter on the slide,we will find out next week whether Froch has aged or just had a bad night at the office,I personally think the latter.

Nico the gman wrote:

hogey wrote:You are not wrong BF88, Froch was certainly hurt in the 6th and more than once.
It seems to not come into peoples thinking how much damage that fight would have done to an on the slide 37yr old, it wont be the biggest shock to me if his punch resistance has dropped after taking such a beating.

Not suggesting at 37 Froch can't age overnight,but the 3 fights before Groves, Froch didn't look like a fighter on the slide,we will find out next week whether Froch has aged or just had a bad night at the office,I personally think the latter.

Totally agree that Froch isn't on the slide, but that fight has to have taken something out of him.

He isn't 37 in fighter years, I'm betting that he won't be able to take too much more of what happened last time.

Back.

Froch was badly hurt in the 6th, he couldn't say 'Mum' backwards at the end of that round. He does however posses incredible toughness and powers of recovery. Which to me, further negates the ill prepared excuse.

3fingers wrote:For me being caught cold is about not being switched on mentally or aware of the others guys power very early in a fight, typically the first round. As the fight wears on you, somehow, get used to the other guys power. I'm sure how that happens, it just does. I'm sure hagler said something along the lines of he got used to Hearns' power.

Ofcourse if he get caught with a concussive punch at anytime you're going down.

Heard that said fingers. I think your body when properly warmed up adjusts to the pain, but you also adjust to the guy's style and roll with the punches better. Don't see how it affects your chin though. Unless some biology expert can enlighten us as to whether it's something to do with stiff neck muscles... Or tension.

He was the one of the march forwards at the end of the round, he was completely fine as he walked back to his corner.

Some boxers can just take punishment over and over again, some chins don't crack; Robinson, Gavilan, Maxim, Ross and to an extent LaMotta could take hellacious punishment until the day they retired and with the exception of Ross they were doing it years past their bests when they were shot.

milkyboy wrote:

3fingers wrote:For me being caught cold is about not being switched on mentally or aware of the others guys power very early in a fight, typically the first round. As the fight wears on you, somehow, get used to the other guys power. I'm sure how that happens, it just does. I'm sure hagler said something along the lines of he got used to Hearns' power.

Ofcourse if he get caught with a concussive punch at anytime you're going down.

Heard that said fingers. I think your body when properly warmed up adjusts to the pain, but you also adjust to the guy's style and roll with the punches better. Don't see how it affects your chin though. Unless some biology expert can enlighten us as to whether it's something to do with stiff neck muscles... Or tension.

Hagler and Chuvalo both said it was in their head they couldn't be hurt, it was something they wouldn't allow to happen, the ability to stay calm and regulate your heart rate might possibly have something to do with it. Linares and Khan both panic when they're hurt, all their skill goes out the window and you can see the anxiety on their faces, keeping a regular blood flow to the brain has to have an effect.

Kessler who has an under rated chin is calmness personified through hell or high water.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He was the one of the march forwards at the end of the round, he was completely fine as he walked back to his corner.

Some boxers can just take punishment over and over again, some chins don't crack; Robinson, Gavilan, Maxim, Ross and to an extent LaMotta could take hellacious punishment until the day they retired and with the exception of Ross they were doing it years past their bests when they were shot.

Modern day you could hit Wayne McCullogh all night and you wouldn't put him away, unbelievable chin.

To be fair the knockdown was more a result of carls hatred for him.

Look at the replay....groves came in with a punch and when in range, carl just threw wild shots everywhere and ended up square on. All groves had to do (or any boxer for that matter) is take a step back and throw one right hand.

If your sqaure on, chin in the air with no defence then your getting KTFO most of the time.

mobilemaster8 wrote:To be fair the knockdown was more a result of carls hatred for him.

Look at the replay....groves came in with a punch and when in range, carl just threw wild shots everywhere and ended up square on. All groves had to do (or any boxer for that matter) is take a step back and throw one right hand.

If your sqaure on, chin in the air with no defence then your getting KTFO most of the time.

Spot on mate. If you watch the replay you can see Froch mouth 'Death to Groves' before he lands. I don't see why Groves is even credited with a knockdown for it.

Give me strength   

kTFO? MM8 WTF? ROFLOL

I'm down with the kids me. #oldcnut

mobilemaster8 wrote:To be fair the knockdown was more a result of carls hatred for him.

Look at the replay....groves came in with a punch and when in range, carl just threw wild shots everywhere and ended up square on. All groves had to do (or any boxer for that matter) is take a step back and throw one right hand.

If your sqaure on, chin in the air with no defence then your getting KTFO most of the time.

Yep got to admit bit amateur hour from Froch with regards to the knockdown,Teddy Atlas would have slapped him across the face when he got back to the corner.

Oh don't get me wrong milky I'm not saying he only went down because he was off balance, he was clearly rocked to his core. I'm saying it was the crossing of his feet that created the knockdown more than a more permanent trait such as the low left or slow starting.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Oh don't get me wrong milky I'm not saying he only went down because he was off balance, he was clearly rocked to his core. I'm saying it was the crossing of his feet that created the knockdown more than a more permanent trait such as the low left or slow starting.

I think your both right. His feet were so crossed, and he was so square on, that he was actually in the southpaw stance with his hands down when he got dropped.

I think we are forgetting the REAL REASON why Froch was dropped. It was in fact all down to Jim Watt, and he actually took credit for it just after the knockdown "I told him to show Carl Froch he wasn't the only puncher in there". In my opinion we need to give Watt more praise for his decisive part in the fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTArECAlRr8&feature=kp

Can't stand it when people use the term KTFO! Cringe!!

I dont get why people are writing Groves off by saying Froch took him lightly last time. It doesn't matter if Froch takes him a million percent seriously, the simple fact is that Groves will still outbox him because he is a better boxer. He's quicker, has a better jab, much better footwork, a better defence, he's smarter and good at executing a gameplan. Where it falls down for him a bit is that Froch is the harder man and has superior stamina.

I rewatched the first fight for the first time the other day, and the difference in skill set between the two was glaring. Groves boxed his head off, put him on his backside and when it came to a tear up in the 6th he outfought Froch, landing right after right and making him back up. Of the 8 full rounds fought it was only possible to give one to Froch. Won't go into the judges cards or the stoppage as we all know both were outrageous.

The rematch is very hard to call as Froch will be highly motivated and has his incredible durability & conditioning as an antidote to Groves superior skills. I think it'll be more tentative despite the bravado. Groves again will bank most of the early rounds, with Froch coming on strong late on as he tends to. This time I think Groves will get on his bike a bit if he's ahead and not give Froch or the ref an excuse to end it.

Prediction; Groves will give Froch a bit of a boxing lesson but fight more conservatively than before so he has enough in the tank to see the job through. Groves via UD.

Good fighters can take people lightly and be beaten, Ali, Lewis etc. The difference between say Lewis and Froch is that Lewis was a better all round fighter than the people he took lightly, whereas froch is not.

I think when people say "Froch took Groves lightly" they dont mean if he takes him serious this time then he'll miraculously become a better boxer than him. I think they are saying that because he took groves lightly he was caught cold, and this totally changed the layout of the fight. In as much as that groves would have given froch a boxing lesson anyway, but not as much as the boxing lesson he gave a recovering froch.

Groves spanks froch until he gets caught late. If time runs out before that happens then Groves will be the runnerway winner.

I like Froch, but I'm excited about Groves future.

rycoys wrote:Can't stand it when people use the term KTFO!  Cringe!!

Its mobilemasters acronym of the moment rycoys... He's getting a bit of stick for it

Very few fights end with a guy being KTFO, it invokes images of a guy flat out on his back unconscious like Hatton or Pacquiao.

The Cobra by late, great TKO.

Hopefully, Groves won't have an excuse this time - no jumping in early, referee!

Froch by KO at any time, he could blast Groves out early or catch him late on when George's stamina fades.

Strangely I haven't got up for this fight as much as others. As its a massive fight in England that adds to the excitement for British fans. Also it might be the fact I think Froch will win fairly comfortable. I'm sure next Saturday I'll get the big fight feeling.

I think all results are possible and he could conceivably bomb him out early if he catches him, but if froch wins i'd be really surprised if its comfortable strongy. Can't see him wading in early like he did to bute. That's what got him in to trouble last time. I expect him to be cagey early on. If he wins I suspect he'll have to work hard for it.

milkyboy wrote:I think all results are possible and he could conceivably bomb him out early if he catches him, but if froch wins i'd be really surprised if its comfortable strongy. Can't see him wading in early like he did to bute. That's what got him in to trouble last time. I expect him to be cagey early on. If he wins I suspect he'll have to work hard for it.

I'm in the camp that the 1st round knockdown flattered George, I just don't think he can repeat it. For me the subsequent good rounds were due to Froch clearing his head. I think the fighters are on different levels. Froch is getting on though so there's always the chance he'll turn up old, don't see it myself.

Strongy. If groves can hit froch hard enough that it takes him 6 rounds to get over it, then personally I give him a chance in the rematch.

Personally I don't really care who wins. I just genuinely don't believe we will see Groves having the same success again.

As promoters go I would take Kalle over most and it goes without saying I would like to see Hearn's nose rubbed in it. I would enjoy seeing Groves and Kalle celebrating in one corner looking at Hearn and having a snigger to themselves.

Double post