Project Payne is a mistake

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:I've no doubt that Ireland would be as good as NZ if rugby was our first sport.

I can see us being as talented, but we would still have to get over that ole Irish inferiority complex, give it a lash mentality! Part of the reason the All Blacks are so good is the mental side of their game.

I think we have made great strides on this in the professional era.

It is not NZ's first winter sport in terms of participation (football is) and saying Ireland would be just as good as NZ if Ireland had rugby as its first sport is about as valid a statement as Paz Vega would have shagged me when I was single if she had known I existed.

Intercounty gaa is as professional as you will get. It isn't related to being regarded as a participation sport. The only difference from rugby or soccer is that the players don't get paid.

Results of AFL v GAA series - Ireland have won 9 series (generally 2/3 games per series) to Pro Australian AFL player's 8 wins. Ireland have won a couple down in Australia as well, so its not true that the Irish 'bottle it' - its just the rugby team have bottled it against NZ and France a few times.

You offer this up as proof that Ireland would be world beaters in rugby with these additions? I think thou dost assume too much.

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
You offer this up as proof that Ireland would be world beaters in rugby with these additions? I think thou dost assume too much.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I know nothing about AFL except they wear very small tight shorts and that's enough knowledge to keep me from finding out more. If women played as well then I think we'd all know a little more.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

I think they would need to have been an Irish citizen/have passport. For example, loads of kids from around the border areas are born in hospitals in NI - I don't think that entitles them to British citizenship.

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

I think they would need to have been an Irish citizen/have passport. For example, loads of kids from around the border areas are born in hospitals in NI - I don't think that entitles them to British citizenship.

Didnt all the old rules change with the 96 (Good Friday) referendum. Used be the case for example I could get a British Passport cos my Grandparents were born pre 1922. Now its all changed since 96.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

I think they would need to have been an Irish citizen/have passport. For example, loads of kids from around the border areas are born in hospitals in NI - I don't think that entitles them to British citizenship.

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

I think they would need to have been an Irish citizen/have passport. For example, loads of kids from around the border areas are born in hospitals in NI - I don't think that entitles them to British citizenship.

Didnt all the old rules change with the 96 (Good Friday) referendum. Used be the case for example I could get a British Passport cos my Grandparents were born pre 1922. Now its all changed since 96.

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I know nothing about AFL except they wear very small tight shorts and that's enough knowledge to keep me from finding out more. If women played as well then I think we'd all know a little more.

Nothing girlie about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT__DWo0feo

Lots of Irish rugby players start playing a lot later than they would in New Zealand. For example, Donnacha Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18 (he took up rugby to improve his fitness levels over the winter and his ambition then was to play hurling for Tipperary).

rodders wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
You offer this up as proof that Ireland would be world beaters in rugby with these additions? I think thou dost assume too much.

Totally agree Kia. It's like saying if the sun came out and we all had fresh pineapple juice for breakfast we'd outsprint the Jamaican Olympic team. There's a bit of conjecture there alright.

geoff998rugby wrote:Those numbers include people of shall we say, an advanced age.

In Ireland its seems once a player always a player

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

geoff998rugby wrote:Those numbers include people of shall we say, an advanced age.

In Ireland its seems once a player always a player

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

There are always going to be loopholes. But that loophole wouldn't be the case for future generations; they recently changed the law so that you need to be either an Irish citizen (naturalised or whatever, doesn't matter) or you need to have been living in Ireland for 2 years before any child you have in Ireland is entitled to citizenship.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The lights are on but nobody's home. There already exists those countries who have bigger populations and player pools than NZ and they're not ranked above NZ. So yes, there is conjecture.

What you also fail to grasp is that what you propose is not the reality in Ireland and so proposing an alternative reality where something might happen if something else were to happen is about as useful as saying my abs would look the same as Ronaldo's if I obsessed over them as much as he does.  But who gives a flying ruck entertaining that hypothesis as it's never going to happen. My abs look way better than his.   

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

There are always going to be loopholes. But that loophole wouldn't be the case for future generations; they recently changed the law so that you need to be either an Irish citizen (naturalised or whatever, doesn't matter) or you need to have been living in Ireland for 2 years before any child you have in Ireland is entitled to citizenship.

Isn't he talking about playing for Ireland (hint he says "play" )? Citizenship is (currently) irrelevant.

Biltong wrote:I can certainly understand the challenges that faces smaller nations, but the mere fact that a country like Australia have shown little intent in 18 years of Super Rugby to develop their grassroots beyond the existing system and rather pay their top players more have shown how some Unions have little quabbles in importing talent.

The issue I see is that SARU as an example do with the same revenue (close to) as the ARU the following.

Varsity rugby, Amateur rugby, Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup B division, Currie Cup A Division, Currie Cup U19, Currie Cup U21 and Super rugby.

SO it really is a question of whether you really want to develop, or take the easy way out.

Amongst the 5 Super Rugby Franchises in Australia by last count there were about 45 South Africans and New Zealanders playing for Australian Franchises.

And they have a population of over 20 million.

New Zealand, with a population smaller than Ireland, and likely a similar economy has very much the same development structures as SA.

So my question is this, do Unions use excuses to not develop their own talent and think they fool anyone with it, or do they simply not care whether we believe them or not?

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Pete I assume that is tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a very real point

A couple from, say England, have a kid in Ireland whilst on holiday.
Neither side of the family have any family contact with Ireland.
As the rules stand the grandchild of that kid, who has no connection with Ireland, and has never lived there is allowed to play even if they themselves never live in Ireland.

What a farce !

There are always going to be loopholes. But that loophole wouldn't be the case for future generations; they recently changed the law so that you need to be either an Irish citizen (naturalised or whatever, doesn't matter) or you need to have been living in Ireland for 2 years before any child you have in Ireland is entitled to citizenship.

Isn't he talking about playing for Ireland (hint he says "play" )? Citizenship is (currently) irrelevant.

Surely not when it comes to ancestry qualification?

Will Jared Paynes grandkids be eligible to represent Ireland?!

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Those numbers include people of shall we say, an advanced age.

In Ireland its seems once a player always a player

Is that not the same everywhere? Most unions use the numbers to gain funding and you get more based on higher participation. There have been people on here who say they've come back to England after being away for a decade and are still registered with their old club.  Any reason why the same doesn't apply to New Zealand?

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Those numbers include people of shall we say, an advanced age.

In Ireland its seems once a player always a player

Is that not the same everywhere? Most unions use the numbers to gain funding and you get more based on higher participation. There have been people on here who say they've come back to England after being away for a decade and are still registered with their old club. Any reason why the same doesn't apply to New Zealand?

The Howlett family are still absorbing all this. Young Charles is enrolled in the Cork Con minis every Saturday; he has yet to formally acquire his citizenship. So Ireland or the All Blacks could still tug his love down the line?

"I'll leave that to him!" the proud father [Doug] smiles. "The worrying thing is that he's taken to the game of hurling! But he enjoys all sports. I like to let them play what they want."

One morning a couple of months ago, New Zealander Doug Howlett drove through Newlands Cross en route to unique gathering in Dublin's city centre.

When he retraced his journey some hours later, he did so as an Irish citizen, one of thousands conferred that day.

A journey that began with photographers snapping the arrival of a global superstar in Shannon Airport some six years ago had turned full circle.

A different place defines him now. Perhaps it is time for an updated Munster flag. "New Zealand by birth, Munster – and Ireland – by the grace of God."

As he gravely recited the oath – "I solemnly declare my fidelity to the Irish nation and my loyalty to the State and I undertake to faithfully observe the laws of the state and to respect its democratic values" – he thought of his family, wife Monique, and his four kids, Charles (six), Ruby Sue (four), two-year-old Thomas and Samuel, born just a few months ago.

And, though Blackrock in Cork is now his permanent home, he also thought of his birthplace, where his legend was spawned and where his parents and his in-laws still reside.

Ask him to describe Irishness and no words accelerate to his lips; instead, an intense feeling of recollection overcomes him.

His family congregated on the beach on a beautiful, sun-dappled Auckland day, thousands of miles away from the brutal Munster winter. Then Charles prodded his shoulder and asked: "Daddy, when are we going home?"

It was then that the sense of being Irish suddenly struck him; his young family knew nothing else but Irishness.

Which, more than anything, prompted the decision to embark on a career that would involve him staying in this country and, more crucially, remaining with Munster, after retirement forced his hand in March of last year.

GILDED

When he exited the playing arena, typically in the act of try-scoring, smashing his shoulder against Glasgow, he did so as one of the sport's most gilded performers; still the All Blacks' all-time leading try-scorer, he remains fifth in the overall Test rankings with 49.

He left the country behind but never his heritage; one of rugby's most spine-tingling moments came in 2008, when he and three fellow Kiwis formed a haka when the All Blacks visited Thomond Park; it was epic in its grandeur.

On that day, the All Blacks/Adidas behemoth confirmed their global presence. Now Howlett, newly installed as Munster's corporate ambassador, seeks to do the same for the Irish province in an increasingly crowded marketplace.

Howlett is the public face of a brains trust that also includes notable Munster-based heavy-hitters like Niall Fitzgerald (ex Unilever CEO), Leslie Buckley of INM, Patrick Coveney of Greencore, John Herlihy from Google, Ken Murphy from Boots, Tony Keohane from Tesco and David Cronin, who runs the University of Limerick Foundation.

"It involves a good few things from marketing and commercial opportunities, to growing Munster's business network," Howlett says of his new career, swapping boots and tracksuits for a laptop and suits.

"It's broad. But what attracted me to the job is that it still involved me helping Munster. I could still help them without putting my boots on. That was an attraction and I'm enjoying it.

"After spending 16 years on the field, learning about life off it."

He embraced every challenge with relish on the field and surpassed most of his expectations. Now, much is out of his control, whether it is the dwindling crowds for Munster's bread and butter Pro12 games to the increasing inability to match European rivals in the marketplace.

"The environment has changed again since I've been here," he adds, in a month where Connacht outbid them for one of the emerging stars of New Zealand rugby, Bundee Aki.

"There's more on offer for international players looking to play abroad. All I can tell players from my part of the world is how much I've enjoyed it here, and the fact that I'm still here is testament to that.

"Munster will always be able to attract players. There's a lot that Munster can offer. It's Munster's job to try to help get these guys here in terms of getting funding and that's our challenge."

Locating a big hitter – a JP McManus-type figure with bulging pockets and a unique bond with his or her province – is the ultimate goal.

The IRFU can only provide so much financial commitment; the new European economic reality allowing rivals to grow exponentially richer demands much, much more from Munster if they are not to be left lagging behind.

Howlett could quite easily have convinced Aki to join Munster; whether his paymasters could afford to pony up the cheque was quite a different matter.

"Through our commercial board, we've been charged to try to solve that problem," Howlett insists. "We're making some progress but it's challenging.

"There are a lot of good Munster and Irish people globally who are successful in their own right. They're educated and have travelled abroad but they've retained that connection with home and they may want to help.

"We need to find out who these people are. It's about contacting them and letting them know what challenges we face. It's about building that network. Nothing is off the cards. We know what we're facing.

"We have to think broadly. We have to think big if we want Munster to remain where we are. We need to have big plans and big ideas."

Rob Penney had big plans for Munster but his expansion, notwithstanding two successive Heineken Cup semi-finals, ultimately flattered to deceive many red-clad supporters.

Ultimately the top brass too; they have now installed an all-Munster, highly inexperienced coaching staff who, it is widely assumed by their cheerleaders, will resurrect rugby as it used to be played in 1965.

Not so, stresses Howlett.

"For sure, Axel Foley is going to bring his own style to the game but he's smart enough not to throw away all the good things that Rob has brought in. It's going to be a combination of both ways.

"He's a smart guy. He's a student of the game. He knows the game is evolved.

"He has learned a hell of a lot from both Rob and Simon Mannix. So you'd expect him to digest all of that and come up with his own style incorporating all aspects."

The professional and personal cannot always coalesce.

"You have to separate your professional and emotional ties – I'll always be tied to All Blacks and Munster. But look at Ronan O'Gara. He has needed to learn but, although he's in Paris, he'll always be emotionally tied with Munster."

The Howlett family are still absorbing all this. Young Charles is enrolled in the Cork Con minis every Saturday; he has yet to formally acquire his citizenship. So Ireland or the All Blacks could still tug his love down the line?

"I'll leave that to him!" the proud father smiles. "The worrying thing is that he's taken to the game of hurling! But he enjoys all sports. I like to let them play what they want."

For now, what Howlett has to offer to prospective Munster players around the world is a more immediate priority as they seek to retain their eminent global status in the sport.

If he is as successful off the field as he was on it, Munster can expect to reap rich dividends.

Munster and Kiwi legend Doug Howlett is a SEAT Ireland brand ambassador and recently received the keys to his new SEAT Alhambra. To see the full range, log on to www.seat.ie

Pete330v2 wrote:Are you implying that Gibbo alone is 1/8th of the Irish rugby playing pool?