India in England 2014, Tour Preview Thread

[msp83]

First topic message reminder :

India's tour of England starts in July, and they are playing a 5 test series after more than a decade. The selectors have announced a large 18 member squad for the test series.
MS Dhoni (Captain WK), M Vijay, Shikhar Dhawan, Gautam Gambhir, Cheteshwar Pujara, Virat Kohli, Ajinkya Rahane, Rohit Sharma, Ravindra Jadeja, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Mohammed Shami, Ishwar Pandey, Ishant Sharma, Stuart Binny, Varun Aaron, Wriddhiman Saha (wk), Pankaj Singh
In: Gautam Gambhir, Stuart Binny, Varun Aaron, Pankaj Singh
Out: Zaheer Khan, Umesh Yadav, Ambati Rayudu.
Lets debate the possibilities, combinations and permutations.

[KP_fan]

and why is Gambhir being played at No.3
I hope they will not use the scores in this bogus games to compare between Vijay and Gambhir...and give the latter the nod if he scores a bit more than Vijay.

Vijay scored some very hard earned runs in SA and NZ

[KP_fan]

Indians distributing batting practise like "mandir ka prasad" to the top order....and retiring them after 50s....

i bet every one of the 18 guys will get to bat....

and I won't be surprised half 2nd class lecister bowl every one of their 13 guys....nine have already bowled today

[msp83]

I really really don't like these stupid 500 a side practice games. Those have to be proper first class games where teams should explore real combinations. Flecher seems to be a fan of these ludicrous nonsense, he has been promoting these eversince his days as England coach.

[msp83]

Runs for Dhawan, Gambhir, Pujara, Rahane and even Rohit Sharma. Vijay missed out, I hope, as KPF said, these useless runs in stupid so called practice games wouldn't be the basis of the choice between Gambhir and Vijay. The latter deserves the first 2 tests at least for all the improvements he has made in his game over the last year and a half.
Are they playing any meaningful practice games?

[ShankyCricket]

The one clear indication from today's warm up game with Gambhir batting at 3 is that they're not sure of the opening combination. Normally teams just play their first choice batting lineup in the first inns of the first warmup. Reserve players are given a chance later. Gambhir batting at 3 today thereby delaying Pujara, Kohli, etc clearly suggests he is in the mix for the first Test especially after Vijay's failure today. Not sure if its a good idea though. I'm not a fan of Murali Vijay by any stretch of imagination but he did score tough runs in South Africa and Gambhir overtaking him on the basis of runs against the second choice bowling attack of one of the worst teams in County Cricket, especially after a mediocre season in the lead-up would be quite unfair.

One more noticeable thing was Rahane batting ahead of Rohit. That, in my opinion, is a welcome change.. I wouldn't play Rohit myself to start with cos I want 5 bowlers but if at all they were to continue with the 6 batsmen formula, Rahane at 5 and Rohit at 6 is a far better order. Rahane is a classical batsman who needs time to build an innings whereas Rohit is good at batting with the tail. But I hope we play 5 bowlers

[ShankyCricket]

I really really don't like these stupid 500 a side practice games. Those have to be proper first class games where teams should explore real combinations. Flecher seems to be a fan of these ludicrous nonsense, he has been promoting these eversince his days as England coach.

Really? We're playing only 2 3 day warm up games. Surely the objective must be to get everyone in with a chance to play the tests acclimatised with the conditions and the weather and this is the only way to do that.

[msp83]

I really really don't like these stupid 500 a side practice games. Those have to be proper first class games where teams should explore real combinations. Flecher seems to be a fan of these ludicrous nonsense, he has been promoting these eversince his days as England coach.

Really? We're playing only 2 3 day warm up games. Surely the objective must be to get everyone in with a chance to play the tests acclimatised with the conditions and the weather and this is the only way to do that.

Not sure about that Shanky. These are nothing more than glorified net sessions. There is nothing competitive about this farce. What more are they gaining by playing such a game against sub-club standard attacks without any pressure of a match situation? A real match situation would have provided these games any kind of meaning.
To get used to the conditions, they can always get some club bowlers around England and organize net sessions.

[ShankyCricket]

Against such low quality opposition, I don't mind 15 a side games. If we were playing the England Lions, I would've played the Test XI.

[KP_fan]

1)Jimmy Neesham is an interesting case...test match average of 70 after 4 tests.....and a FC average of 35 ( which is boosted by his test match average of 70)

and he is the 5th bowler in the side.....bowling seam up medium pace.

2) Moeen Ali another case.....test average of 54 after two tests.....against a FC average of 38 ( boosted a bit by his 2 test avg of 54).
and a 5th bowler as a steady spinner.

these two guys may not sustain these lofty high averages but they have demonstrated enough skills to show that they will not fall too far below their FC averages also.

Moral here is do not write off a cricketer based on overall FC averages only for two reasons:

1)their recent FC performances and averages in the last season or two may be much higher than their overall FC averages,
Not every cricketer is a teen prodigy.....many mature/ learn / improve through 5 to 7 seasons of FC cricket and reach full potential in the late 20s after a mediocre Ranji / county / FC start.

on this same thought...when you look at the overall career average of Srinath and Zaheer in tests......you will see they are at best mediocre.
and yet those who have followed closely will know for about 3 to 4 years....both of them were at the top of their trade and at par with the best in the world.

2) Second cricket is not just about averages there is so much subjective visual judgement of temperament, and ability to deliver under tighter situations.

[robbo277]

If England prepare green tops, would 3 seamers not be enough to bowl England out in a first innings?

I think India need to play to their strengths, which isn't seam bowling. If they load up with average seamers, English batsmen will be able to pick them off. England have more trouble against spin, if it's flat they can use Jadeja to dry up the runs, if it's turning they can use Ashwin and Jadeja in tandem to take wickets.

If England had two decent spinners I'd definitely try to get them both into the attack.

As it is, my England team would be:

Cook (C)
Robson
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Prior
Ali
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson

12th man: Jordan.

[msp83]

1)Jimmy Neesham is an interesting case...test match average of 70 after 4 tests.....and a FC average of 35 ( which is boosted by his test match average of 70)

and he is the 5th bowler in the side.....bowling seam up medium pace.

2) Moeen Ali another case.....test average of 54 after two tests.....against a FC average of 38 ( boosted a bit by his 2 test avg of 54).
and a 5th bowler as a steady spinner.

these two guys may not sustain these lofty high averages but they have demonstrated enough skills to show that they will not fall too far below their FC averages also.

Moral here is do not write off a cricketer based on overall FC averages only for two reasons:

1)their recent FC performances and averages in the last season or two may be much higher than their overall FC averages,
Not every cricketer is a teen prodigy.....many mature/ learn / improve through 5 to 7 seasons of FC cricket and reach full potential in the late 20s after a mediocre Ranji / county / FC start.

on this same thought...when you look at the overall career average of Srinath and Zaheer in tests......you will see they are at best mediocre.
and yet those who have followed closely will know for about 3 to 4 years....both of them were at the top of their trade and at par with the best in the world.

2) Second cricket is not just about averages there is so much subjective visual judgement of temperament, and ability to deliver under tighter situations.

KPF, remember former England wicketkeeper Chris Read? The best keeper in England even today? He averaged 18 in his 15 tests, and averages 36 in First Class cricket.
Now if your theory holds, then Ravichandran Ashwin who averages more or less the same as Binny in FC cricket should be a pretty fine batsman, and he's a fulltime bowler unlike Binny the military medium parttimer.
Yet another point to consider is that as you said, its just not about the averages, it is also about technique and temperament. Remember Mark Ramprakash? He had a fabulous technique but a terrible temperament and was a celebrated international failure despite all those massive numbers in FC cricket. Now don't forget Ajay Jadeja who failed to maintain half of his 50+ FC average in test cricket because of a pretty poor test batting technique.
The problem with Binny is that his technique does not look great. His bowling is nothing special and not more than parttime, and if he has to be picked, it has to be for his batting. There are many others who are much, much better in the batting department who haven't even been selected.

[msp83]

England are resting 10 out of the 11 players who played the Sri Lanka series from any county action before the India series. Only Moeen Ali will be available for his county during the period.
Interesting, to say the least!.

[msp83]

Ben Stokes proved his bowling form the other day with a 10 wicket haul in the latest First Class game he played. They didn't pick him for the Sri Lankan series for some nonsensical reasons, will he come in for the India series? If so who would the batting lineup shape up? And why on earth is Matt Prior who hardly played any county cricket this season, who struggled throughout the last international season, who's keeping was poor in the Sri Lanka series, who was bounced out more than ones by Lankan bowlers who are nowhere near quick as Mitchell Johnson, is eing rested?

[robbo277]

I'd bring Stokes in for Jordan. Being a Sussex lad I like Jordan, but Stokes offers more with the bat and as he's shown in Australia and county cricket he can take wickets too. Jordan is one for the future, but was wicketless at Headingly, so is the one to make way. With 3 seamers that can be relied upon, Plunkett can be used in the "impact" bowler role more, come on for shorter, sharper spells.

I guess with Prior's advancing years they're trying to manage his workload a bit more, especially as he hurried back from an injury to be fit for Sri Lanka. I guess the same could also be said for Broad, and Anderson they'll want to look after too. I'm guessing Moeen is being sent back possibly to bowl a host of overs and carry on working on his bowling.

[KP_fan]

even this friendly tour game has very quickly exposed the big Indian weakness.....the medium pace bowling is getting whacked

Bhuvneshwar Kumar (rm) 7.0 1 46 0 6.57 28 10 0

[msp83]

KPF, How on earth did you miss the outstanding contribution from the One and Only? 3.3-0-36-0. A fine economy rate of only 10.28.
And he'll be playing all 5 tests in the series and all the tests that India play for the next 5 years!. What a tragedy!.

[msp83]

Pankaj Singh took 1-22 in his 6 overs. Hopefully his domestic performances will be rewarded with a place in the 11.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ishant Sharma has bowled 5 overs for 50 runs.

Against Leicestershire who haven't won a first class game in I think 23 games.

Oh no wait its the Leicester reserves.

Just lolz

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Angus Robson won't be the last member of the Robson family to score a hundred against India this summer    

[msp83]

Ishant Sharma has bowled 5 overs for 50 runs.

Against Leicestershire who haven't won a first class game in I think 23 games.

Oh no wait its the Leicester reserves.

Just lolz

Now you know why Alastair Cook said with confidence that he is not going anywhere?
The guy is a total liability and Cook and co can't wait to face his medium pace filth!. England should consider gifting him a few wickets now and then, that's in their interests, no way should they give any ideas to the Indian selectors who are anyways useless muppets!.

[KP_fan]

I Sharma 8 0 59 0 7.37 (6nb)
Mohammed Shami 6 1 25 0 4.16 (1nb)
STR Binny 4 0 22 0 5.50 (2nb)
VR Aaron 2.4 0 18 0 6.75
IC Pandey 1 0 4 0 4.00

and no one's being spared.....
writing is on the wall for Dhoni who is the captain only because of his maai-baap srinivsan

[msp83]

And interestingly, Pankaj Singh hasn't had a bowl after an initial 6 over spell despite him maintaining the best economy rate among the Indian seamers, besides taking the only wicket in the innings so far. Perhaps another indicator as to how they are going to go about things? His domestic performances made it impossible to ignore him any further so they picked him, but he might not get an opportunity in the series though the likes of Ishant have the license to remain awful for ever.

[msp83]

The Leicester lads inflicted more long-term damage to India when they gifted Ishant Sharma couple of late wickets after smacking him around as they pleased. A templett for England this!. Keep him in the side, half of the job is done.

[msp83]

Pankaj, Shami and Aaron where the better of the seam bowling lot. PPerhaps they should go in with the 3 of them and Kumar for the first test with Ashwin as the number 6 batsman.

[KP_fan]

we dunno about the pitch and / or the intent of the Indian bowlers.....
on his best days Dhoni is radarless..and we dunno if he was at all switched on...in this game


so we can write this off as a net practise minus nets in open ground...

and that's what we said and Dravid pointed out...these practise games should not lack intensity...that's precisely what they were lacking

[KP_fan]

regardless of who we may want Ishant and Sami are a given in the test side.....
the 3rd seamer most likely will be Kumar is he shows some rythm in second game or in even in nets

[msp83]

Yeah, Shami deserves to be there, leading the attack. His international game is evolving and he has some ways to go before he becomes a more rounded bowler for different conditions. But he has potential, and more importantly has mostly delivered on that.
But the Liability is something that they'll carry anyways. That's the BCCI's thank you gesture for ECB's backing of Srinivasan!.

[msp83]

Is the next practice game a proper FC game?

[KP_fan]

i read...Dravid appointed consultant to the Indian team.
It might have been a good idea to bring Zaheer as a mentor for young seamers.

the only variable is 3rd seamer slot.
Jadeja will be the 4th bowler and Rohit the 6th batsman

[ShankyCricket]

Must admit I'm beginning to raise doubts over Bhuvi's test credentials. Bowling with the old ball has never been his biggest strength so he really needs to be picking at least 2 wickets in his first 10 overs to really justify his selection. He got caned around and has only 9 wickets in his 6 tests, albeit all of them in the subcontinent. Too big a risk in tests? I am starting to get the feeling he might have a 'Kulasekara' if picked. Hope I'm wrong.


No need for any comments about Ishant of course.

[KP_fan]

B. Kumar is better than Kulasekhra...but if he is not in rythm...then it is a huge risk in a 3 man attack.

the new ball in Eng is good for 20 overs...so he should ball a 10 over spell upfront and another 5 overs with the second new ball...so you still get atleast 15 potent overs from Kumar in the day if he is in rythm

we cannot form opinion without having the full details of what the pitch and the seriousness of intent was from Indians vs Lecister.

[msp83]

Must admit I'm beginning to raise doubts over Bhuvi's test credentials. Bowling with the old ball has never been his biggest strength so he really needs to be picking at least 2 wickets in his first 10 overs to really justify his selection. He got caned around and has only 9 wickets in his 6 tests, albeit all of them in the subcontinent. Too big a risk in tests? I am starting to get the feeling he might have a 'Kulasekara' if picked. Hope I'm wrong.


No need for any comments about Ishant of course.

Must say I too share those concerns. I would have Kumar for the Trentbridge test as the ball usually does things there. But I would be rather wary of picking him in a 3 seamer attack for the other tests. If they play Ashwin as the all-rounder and go in with 4 bowlers, then Kumar has to be there, but not sure about him in a 3 man attack. Would arather have Pankaj Singh who can generate some seam movement of the pitch unlike Kumar who is more of a swing bowler. But then, we should also remember that Praveen Kumar was our best bowler by a long long way during the last tour.

[KP_fan]

what coudl India have done....except Yadav there is no glaring omission from the already huge squad of 18.

[KP_fan]

in aus 74, eng 59 and in SA 54 is what Ishant averages  

those are the places where seamers have good records

[msp83]

what coudl India have done....except Yadav there is no glaring omission from the already huge squad of 18.

But that was a very bad mistake......
Perhaps the likes of Pandey and Pankaj will get some actual game time and provide us with a pleasant surprise or 2!.

[KP_fan]

what coudl India have done....except Yadav there is no glaring omission from the already huge squad of 18.

But that was a very bad mistake......
Perhaps the likes of Pandey and Pankaj will get some actual game time and provide us with a pleasant surprise or 2!.

we saw Eranga, Pradeep and Lakmal were all in mid 80s and hitting high 80s at times.

so yes Yadav is a big omission......Pankaj and Iswar Pandey bowl at stock speeds of 80mph......will be hard to make an impact.

the only good thing is that our expectations are low.

[msp83]

Think Ishwar Pandey is a bit quicker than that? Pace was always held against Pankaj, but there were reports last Ranji season that he has added a little bit more in that department.

[KP_fan]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/current/story/756271.html

the report here is good...shows the conditions were overcast but Ishant and Kumar were lacking rythm.

Pankaj, Aaron and Shami were all reportedly bowling at quick speed and pick of bowlers

[msp83]

Ishant Sharma lacks nothing, other than quality!.

[KP_fan]

well we have to live with Ishant...so let's hope he shows the form he did in the last 2 or 3 tests

[msp83]

well we have to live with Ishant...so let's hope he shows the form he did in the last 2 or 3 tests

Yeah lets hope so. But its more likely that he'll show the form of the previous 20 or 30 tests before the last 2!........

[KP_fan]

well we have to live with Ishant...so let's hope he shows the form he did in the last 2 or 3 tests

Yeah lets hope so. But its more likely that he'll show the form of the previous 20 or 30 tests before the last 2!........

maybe he has turned the corner.......I am sure that's what the team management hopes and keeps hoping.

as a 3rd seamer...beast of burden.....stock bowler he is not bad......

but his badness takes alarming proportions if there is no good second seamer......we assume that Sami will be the first seamer ( although those trying to please the management are billing Ishant as the spearhead)

so if Kumar does a fair job then Ishant would be bearable

[msp83]

well we have to live with Ishant...so let's hope he shows the form he did in the last 2 or 3 tests

Yeah lets hope so. But its more likely that he'll show the form of the previous 20 or 30 tests before the last 2!........

maybe he has turned the corner.......I am sure that's what the team management hopes and keeps hoping.

as a 3rd seamer...beast of burden.....stock bowler he is not bad......

but his badness takes alarming proportions if there is no good second seamer......we assume that Sami will be the first seamer ( although those trying to please the management are billing Ishant as the spearhead)

so if Kumar does a fair job then Ishant would be bearable

Far too many fals dawns to read anything positive into Ishant's half-decent performances in New Zealand. After that first year in which he was full of promise and a great hope, he has produced disappointing performances one after the other for more than 5 years. His average went up, the wickets didn't come and his pace lost.
Ishant can be effective only if he can average in the late 130s and take his pace up to 140 + more regularly. And if he could somehow relearn the art of reverse for which he combined so very well with Zaheer way back in 2008, in the home series against Australia........

[msp83]

Wonderboy continues to demolish any hope of a turnaround by producing yet another rubbish performance in the 2nd warm-up game against Derbyshire.
He has figures of 4-0-20-0, and he has bowled 4 no-balls in his 4 overs.
Pankaj Singh sharing the new ball with Bhuvneshwar Kumar and yet again took an early wicket. Think only one of them will make it to the playing 11, and I feel it has to be Pankaj.
The guy has taken 300 first class wickets, most of them on flat roads in Indian domestic cricket. If the team is freely carrying total deadweights like Ishant Sharma for nothing, at least there should be some respect towards a fighter like Pankaj. He may not smash through many a batting lineup, but playing him is any day better than providing free India caps to the likes of Mr Hopeless.

[msp83]

A first over wicket for Ravindra Jadeja. Its another of those stupid 100 a side warm-up game so Ravichandran Ashwin also will have his turn later in the day. But if they are going in with a 4 bowler lineup, I would certainly want Jadeja in there, hope he gets a decent work out and a few wickets to build his confidence.

[msp83]

Seems someone told Ishant Sharma it is mandatory to bowl a no-ball every over. 8 overs and 8 no-balls. The guy is a complete joke!.

[msp83]

It will be downright foolhardy to bring him anywhere near the playing 11!. The selectors did not drop him in time, hopefully the management will see the obvious and would not act like morons and play Sharma, that is the sureshot way to disaster!.

[KP_fan]

every bowler has been far more disciplined in this inning.

It would be stupid if they select Ishant inspite of this horrible form.

at this point shami only one looking certain as a seamer....

I would put Kumar and Aaron as 2nd and 3rd...aaron for pace
and have Binny in to distriubute the workload

[msp83]

Derbyshire scoring 326-5 at the end of the day. Ravindra Jadeja took a couple of wickets, but no stand out performance from the Indian bowlers.
Ishant Sharma managed to bowl 9 no-balls in his 12 overs.

[Gerry SA]

Alastair Cook, a very average second tier Test batsman, will be delighted to see how dreadful India's bowlers are.

He'll be eyeing up a few 100s.

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