French Open discussion thread

by Danny_1982 Thu 5 Jun - 8:31

First topic message reminder :

Born Slippy wrote:Murray is surely going to go all out attack in the SF. I can't see him beating Nadal who is starting to look close to his peak form. However, if he can give him a tough match that will be very encouraging for Wimbledon.

Yep, it'll be all guns blazing I imagine. Going after every return he can and trying to end points quickly. It'll be fun to watch, but if you offered me a 4 set defeat for Muzza now I'd bite your hand off.

by naxroy Sun 8 Jun - 21:41

amazing

thanks for so much rafa

10 years winning a slam
5th straight roland garros
9th roland garros
14th slam
holds number 1 a few more weeks

by DJB14 Sun 8 Jun - 21:46

Interesting words from the coaches after the match. Things don't sound well for Nadal's back

http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/news/articles/2014-06-08/201406081402252406125.html

by Guest Sun 8 Jun - 22:20

Sounds like they were both utterly done maybe its taking its till on them both

by HM Murdock Sun 8 Jun - 22:29

Both players done in but, as Vajda said, one had doubts and the other didn't give an inch.

by naxroy Sun 8 Jun - 22:46

novak will for sure win here... its only rafa that can beat him here, and rafa will sooner than later fail here.
rafa is the biggest champion a slam knows, but he is 28 and he cannot win forever. novak is a year younger and looks like his career will last just a little longer so...

by invisiblecoolers Sun 8 Jun - 23:02

naxroy wrote:novak will for sure win here... its only rafa that can beat him here, and rafa will sooner than later fail here.
rafa is the biggest champion a slam knows, but he is 28 and he cannot win forever. novak is a year younger and looks like his career will last just a little longer so...

Tough loss happen, its more of a tough loss for fans than for the player themselves, coz end of the day they know they gave everything they can on the field and they have made enough money out of it, its the fans who can never overcome the loss, ask a Fed fan whether they were able to overcome Wim 08? AO 09? ask Rafa fans whether they were able to over come AO 12 and AO 14? ask Djoko fans whether they were able to over come the last 3 FO close ones. Very Happy

For me the final was a big disappointment but to be frank on every aspect Nadal deserved to win his 9th title on the given circumstances.

All good things do come to an end and so will Rafa's FO grip but even if Djoko unable to win one in the future the life will still go on. thumbsup

by invisiblecoolers Sun 8 Jun - 23:03

My Condolances to Socal and HMM, I could understand how much it meant for them as a proud fan of Nole. rose

Lets have some wine RedWine

by naxroy Sun 8 Jun - 23:26

anbody has a link to the match or last set at least^?

by naxroy Sun 8 Jun - 23:33

now I just hope nadal makes the second week at wimbledon
from 2006 to 2011 he was alway reaching the final at least (2009 he didnt attend) but since then nadal has been out before we had found seat

it would be good for his number 1 status

anyway I doubt he stands a chance of getting that trophy again.hope to be wrong of course, but...

by Haddie-nuff Sun 8 Jun - 23:48

I wondered if my opinion or what might have been seen as my biased view of Nadal would change when I left Spain.. whether my allegiance was one of adopted patriotism. Now I live on the other side of the pond and I talk in $ instead of euros.. my question has been answered. The man is a legend and no matter whether I live on the moon I will be a supporter of this incredible young man for as long as he chooses to play . Yes one day his vice like grip will be prised loose from this trophy but I think he will be there again next year. My empathy goes to Socal who I know must be as bitterly disappointed as Novak. I am not a Djokovic fan and never have been but today I did feel somewhat sorry for him. If he cannot beat Rafa at RG whilst Rafa was clearly nursing a bad back during that last set then I dont know when he will. It was not the best final Ive ever watched but both men gave all and more than they had. Truly champions and at this moment in time I cannot see anyone holding a torch to either.
I believe no matter to what player's mast you nail your colours.. Rafa Nadal is doubtless worth all the accolades he receives. Bye again..... HN

by Silver Sun 8 Jun - 23:59

laverfan wrote:
Silver wrote:Good stuff. Not a vintage match but some excellent points as usual. Well done to Nadal, for Novak the wait goes on, but I think he'll get there in the end. There will be other opportunities, but for now it's back to the drawing board and prepare for the grass.

Work still to do for Rafa to attain GOAT status, but this helps!

I feel for Djokovic. Nadal may not be the GOAT, but is unique.

Absolutely LF, the most unique player of this generation by some margin.

HM, Novak may have not won in six attempts, but he's at least giving himself a chance by reaching the latter stages of the big tournaments. A reminder:

Djokovic 2013/14: W, SF, F, F, QF, F (winless in 5)

Federer 2010/11/12: W, QF, QF, SF, SF, F, QF, SF, SF, SF, W (winless in 9)

As long as you give yourself a shot, anything can happen. I think he'll get to double figures, personally.

by **laverfan** Mon 9 Jun - 0:01

The pages of Tennis History are littered with Veni, Vidi, Vici and then a walk into the sunset. Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic,...

To the next RG.. 2015... Bubbly

@H-n... thanks for dropping by. Congrats to you as a supporter of Nadal, and to many others.

by Gerry SA Mon 9 Jun - 0:46

IMO I think Djokovic's chances at Roland Garros are below 15% now.

He's had 4 opportunities to win the French Open.

2011 was his for the taking until Federer rolled back the years.

2012, 2013 and 2014 - three painful losses to Nadal.

Djokovic will be 28 at Roland Garros 2015. Nadal may even be playing a shorter schedule based around to Roland Garros in 2015.

The mental baggage gets worst with every failure at Roland Garros, especially to Nadal. Bearing in mind Nadal's 6-0 at Roland Garros vs Djokovic

by summerblues Mon 9 Jun - 3:13

I am also thinking this loss may make it much harder for Nole to come back and win in future.

There was some talk of him having had stomach issues or something, and maybe throwing up (or almost throwing up) on court. As I said earlier, for his own sake it would be better if those were true, as that would give him a mental way out - would make it much easier to swallow the loss and try anew next year.

If, on the other hand, he was close to fully fit, then today's loss may be terminal - he did not look any closer to winning than last couple of years.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 6:42

I think Novak probably was a bit below top fitness. He'd had a little bug of some description.

I don't think it had a huge influence on that match though. These huge peaks and troughs in performance level have been a problem for a long time now.

At USO last year, he played brilliantly in the 2nd and start of the 3rd. Then he failed to break Rafa from 0-40 and his performance went through the floor. It's just the way he is.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 9 Jun - 7:41

Hard luck Novak fans, he will win here one day

V happy for Rafa

Wasn't exactly "eaten alive", now was he?

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 9 Jun - 9:49

Novak has become a sissy since 2013 nope

More hope for Nishikori or Raonic in beating Nadull at the french.

by sirfredperry Mon 9 Jun - 10:19

Two things. Don't know why there were some who doubted Rafa at the French this year. OK, he had had, by his standards, an average clay court season (very good by anyone else's clay-court standards). But he's such an unbeatable animal at RG that it's hard to look beyond him for a champion there.
Secondly, don't let us get down on Djoko. He's doing what Fed did from 06-09, being good enough to get to finals against Rafa and then not being quite good enough to win them. No disgrace in that. Would anyone else have even got a set yesterday, even if, by all accounts, Rafa was not at his best ?
Djoko has more Slam wins in him, I think. You can do worse than continually getting to GS finals.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 11:58

sirfredperry wrote: Secondly, don't let us get down on Djoko. He's doing what Fed did from 06-09, being good enough to get to finals against Rafa and then not being quite good enough to win them. No disgrace in that

The big difference being that Federer tended to win the other slam finals he played in!

I don't think anyone is getting down on Djokovic per se. It's more that another patchy performance in a slam final has forced a re-assessment of his level of threat at slams and estimations of what he might achieve in his career.

Since AO12, he's won 9 out of 12 Masters finals and 2/2 WTF Finals. In slams, he's won only 1 final out of 6.

In the same period, his record against Federer, Nadal and Murray outside of slams is 14 wins out 22 matches (64%). In slams, it is 2 wins out of 9 (22%).

The numbers are telling a very clear story.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 12:29

I think Novak in recent finals has gone into his shell during shells instead of upping the aggression and applying the pressure in key matches. I don't think Becker will add anything given he would always run scared of Sampras.

I hope that Djokovic can turn it around and find his killer instinct again like in 2011.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 12:51

I actually think Becker has helped.

Prior to the 3rd set v Gulbis, Novak had progressed serenely. He'd played calmly and was serving well, both of which I believe are things Becker has focused on. It was a marked improvement on other recent slams.

I don't think Becker can be blamed from the way it completely unravelled midway through that third set. That's Novak's failing.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 13:02

See I don't think he has. I don't see anything obviously different in Novaks play or approach. Maybe the serve was up, but I think since 2011 his has been solid and reliable.

I was more bemused why Djokovic plumped for Becker, I didn't think anything aesthetically was wrong with his game. I just think mentally he has lost that edge. Take yesterday I think at 6-5 in the second when he hit that FH that hit a netcord and allowed Rafa the easy put away. He let that get under his skin. Almost Murray-esq in that regard.

Back end of last year he had that winning streak and again looked like somewhere getting back to his best. I don't think Becker mentally can bring anything that is progressive for Novak. Take his matches against Seppi and Tsonga at the FO in 2012 and Wawrinka at AO in 2013. Matches where he was toe to toe with them and even on ocassions on the ropes and still found that killer instinct to punish the errors. Against Murray and Nadal in recent GS finals he hasn't found that ruthless streak that he had before. In his finals with Murray he got dragged down into ugly dogfights to which he shyed away from. With Rafa, he has just gone into his shell, when infact he should be taking the lead. It seems to me he has lost that confidence to do that.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 13:35

legendkillarV2 wrote: Take his matches against Seppi and Tsonga at the FO in 2012 and Wawrinka at AO in 2013. Matches where he was toe to toe with them and even on ocassions on the ropes and still found that killer instinct to punish the errors.

But the question you should be asking is why was he in such dogfights?

Where was the killer instinct when Seppi went two sets to love up? Where was the killer instinct when he conceded all the momentum to Tsonga and faced 4 match points? Where was it when he lost 4th set tie breakers against Wawrinka (AO13) and Del Potro (W13) and had to play a 5th set? So many of Novak's oft-lauded feats are digging himself out of holes he's fallen into.

Prior to the SF at RG this year, every opponent he faced was in the top 50 and he'd only dropped one set (and that on a tie break). That is progress in my book!

I'll agree that the Becker appointment is a bit odd. As I understand it, Becker wasn't on the original list of names so maybe he was turned down by others. I don't however think it is panning out to be the disaster many feared.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 13:54

HM Murdoch wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote: Take his matches against Seppi and Tsonga at the FO in 2012 and Wawrinka at AO in 2013. Matches where he was toe to toe with them and even on ocassions on the ropes and still found that killer instinct to punish the errors.
But the question you should be asking is why was he in such dogfights?

Where was the killer instinct when Seppi went two sets to love up? Where was the killer instinct when he conceded all the momentum to Tsonga and faced 4 match points? Where was it when he lost 4th set tie breakers against Wawrinka (AO13) and Del Potro (W13) and had to play a 5th set? So many of Novak's oft-lauded feats are digging himself out of holes he's fallen into.

Prior to the SF at RG this year, every opponent he faced was in the top 50 and he'd only dropped one set (and that on a tie break). That is progress in my book!

I'll agree that the Becker appointment is a bit odd. As I understand it, Becker wasn't on the original list of names so maybe he was turned down by others. I don't however think it is panning out to be the disaster many feared.

I think it is a confidence thing. I do believe that instead going out all aggression, He has become extremely passive and safe. Even his BHDTL has more air and less pace to it. It's almost like old Novak again prior to 2011. I keep thinking he has become more like Murray in that sense. Not playing his best until his back is well and truly against the wall. I think there has been a reliance more on his fitness to see him grit through tough matches. Novak has more gears than Murray and I think he is very un-willing to use them.

Novak played well at the start of the FO this year and then tailed away a bit before the business end. Take the match yesterday. The first set Novak didn't return well, but took his chances when they present themselves. He returned a bit better in the second and well he had that brain fart at 6-5 and allowed the set to slip away and that is such an expensive concession to give away against Rafa in a BO5 on clay. I am all for giving, but not like that. Also his CCBH was returned galore by Nadal. When you have such favouring conditions to Nadal to nulify Novak's primary weapons, variation becomes the only weapon left and Novak is not that varied unfortunately.

His matches with Wawrinka, Seppi, Tsonga, Del Potro. I think we can agree that at least 3 out of the 4 matches that the players involved played their best tennis and went out all attack on Novak which in fairness is the right thing to do, but by god is it energy sapping and for those players to win a BO5 against Novak in 3 or 4 sets requires errors from Novak and he isn't going to spend a BO5 match handing them out for more than 3 sets!

If I was a Novak fan I would've liked him to have turned to a Sampras like figure. I know Sampras was up for working on a consultant basis to players provided the work was mainly carried out stateside. Tapping into that type of experience and mindset that a Sampras could offer would be like gold dust to Novak.

The good thing with Novak, like Nadal and Federer he is not getting bogged down in the early rounds of Slams in un-necessary slug fests. The positive to take from that is progress that peak to the latter stages and especially in finals. I still believe his problems are mental.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 15:15

legendkillarV2 wrote: I still believe his problems are mental.

I agree.

I'm just not sure that anyone can sort him out. He has to do it himself.

It's a strange career arc. Players like Lendl and Murray got to finals but took a lot of attempts to finally win.

Novak though, won his 2nd final and by AO12, his slam final record was 5 wins from 7 finals.

And then, with all that experience and in his career prime, that's the time he lost his nerve!

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 15:36

HM Murdoch wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote: I still believe his problems are mental.
I agree.

I'm just not sure that anyone can sort him out. He has to do it himself.

It's a strange career arc. Players like Lendl and Murray got to finals but took a lot of attempts to finally win.

Novak though, won his 2nd final and by AO12, his slam final record was 5 wins from 7 finals.

And then, with all that experience and in his career prime, that's the time he lost his nerve!

I think the important question is where is Novak at this moment in time with his career and life mentally? Where does he think he is at and where does he want to be?

He has 6 Slams under his belt and chasing that elusive FO to complete that career Grand Slam. He is still doing the business in Masters Events and to me physically has another 3 years peak left in him. It's like the mind is ageing quicker than the body. You look at say Federer who managed to enjoy further success after that wobble in 2008 when Nadal finally got his man. Also having a family never hindered him winning more Slams and making number 1 again. Same with Nadal. Many thought he would be a spent force after Novak clicked into gear and plus his knee injury and he was able to win more Slams and reclaim number 1.

It's almost like Novak and Andy are in the same boat. Both have experience success late in their careers, but have they got the motivation and ability to propel themselves and not so much re-invent themselves, but evolve and adapt to the challenges ahead and achieve more success?

by kingraf Mon 9 Jun - 15:41

I do think yesterday's match needs to be viewed in isolation, and not as a trend, or a match to see if there are any developing trends. If Djokovic had just looked across the net, he'd have realised that physically, Rafa was there for the taking. Problem was, Djokovic had his own very real, ailments to deal with!! He lost because I think Rafa has always been more willing to go through "career-shortening" matches than Nole. Rafa was just simply more willing to play to his limit, even if his body wasn't.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 15:56

Back in March, when asked about repeating his 2011, Novak said:

"It's not possible. I'm a different person. I have different obligations in life, different priorities in life"

He's very into his charity work and the ambassadorial roles he has there. He's getting married and has a baby on the way. I'm put in mind of the words of Mickey in Rocky III:

The worst thing that happened to you, that can happen to any fighter: you got civilized.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 16:03

I think going by those words that fire is slowly fading out of him. I would hate to see him plummet down the rankings in the upcoming couple of years.

It's like with Murray who his back issue and then loss of motivation when he won Wimbledon.

Now if the players below them showed any inch of fight, they could challenge the likes of Murray and Djokovic more consistantly.

It's great seeing Raonic, Gulbis, Dimitrov and Nishikori make some headways in the rankings, but we will see what they are made of when they have to consistantly match or exceed their achievements on a yearly basis.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 16:06

kingraf wrote:I do think yesterday's match needs to be viewed in isolation, and not as a trend, or a match to see if there are any developing trends. If Djokovic had just looked across the net, he'd have realised that physically, Rafa was there for the taking. Problem was, Djokovic had his own very real, ailments to deal with!! He lost because I think Rafa has always been more willing to go through "career-shortening" matches than Nole. Rafa was just simply more willing to play to his limit, even if his body wasn't.

I think it's very much part of a trend.

The loss in itself doesn't mean much. It's Rafa at RG: defeats are pretty common!

But it's another final where his levels were very inconsistent. At 5-5 in the second, he lost 5 games in a row. He breaks back for 4-4 in the 4th and then immediately loses his serve (and the match) on a double fault. All the time he's chatting to himself and being irritated. He's needs to get back on an even keel.

As I've said else where: 14/8 win/loss against Fed, Rafa and Andy in Masters but 2/7 in slams.

by **laverfan** Mon 9 Jun - 16:32

Does becoming a parent become a bit of burden subconsciously? One of his close-ups yesterday was the look of desperation.

Federer seems to handle it a bit better, IMO.

by kingraf Mon 9 Jun - 17:03

Nadal had the same problem in 2011... Djokovic was hardly romping home during the 7-0 run.
Madrid and Roma - Every single set, Nadal was broken at 5-4. Miami, Nadal was outlasted in the tie-breaker. US Open - Nadal pegged back from 2-0 in the first two sets. AO - Nadal broken 4-2 at the fifth. It happens, Djokovic will be back.

And if he isn't - well, he's had a magnificent career. Beautiful girlfriend, bun in the oven, zero taxes. Struggling to find the tears.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 17:11

Federers had kids a lot longer for a start, hes also got a perfect family situation to support it. Novaks stil got the doubts, he wants to win and be a good father at the same time, thats in no way easy.

by HM Murdock Mon 9 Jun - 18:08

kingraf wrote:And if he isn't - well, he's had a magnificent career. Beautiful girlfriend, bun in the oven, zero taxes. Struggling to find the tears.

That's funny, KR. I felt a bit sorry for him when he had the years in his eyes as the crowd gave him that long ovation. But then I thought exactly what you just wrote and decided there are many others more deserving of my sympathy!

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 19:11

Just don't buy this stuff. Once a top, top player has got some success {money, fame, family, recogition} all they want is more.

They love the adulation of winning. It, for most sports is a short career.

What comes afterwards is just one of the perks.

by kingraf Mon 9 Jun - 19:20

I dont buy that - athletes are people too - eventually everyone gets content. A guy like Monfils has five career titles, and given how long he's gone without a coach, is obviously quite happy. Djokovic has done infinitely more - and he has a family round the corner, not impossible for him to be content with his lot. Safin pretty much called it in at 25..

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 19:23

kingraf wrote:I dont buy that - athletes are people too - eventually everyone gets content. A guy like Monfils has five career titles, and given how long he's gone without a coach, is obviously quite happy. Djokovic has done infinitely more - and he has a family round the corner, not impossible for him to be content with his lot. Safin pretty much called it in at 25..

But Monfils is not as i stated a TOP, TOP player who has won slams. Big difference King

Most major winners only want more.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 19:27

Borg certainly didn't when he finished at 26

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 19:27

A case in example. Tiger Woods. He needs for nothing. His one goal as stated is to win majors.

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 19:28

legendkillarV2 wrote:Borg certainly didn't when he finished at 26

Which is why i put most.

Not everyone is so driven.

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 19:34

Woods is second on the all time Major list. Yet he hasn't won one in what 6 years??

Tennis is lonely life and Woods plays on the PGA Tour which means he rarely travels out of the US and spend a long time travelling across the world like a Djokovic.

The case KR made for Safin who retired at 28 I think?

It's not uncommon for Slam winners to lose their mojo. Roddick another one who retired early.

by kingraf Mon 9 Jun - 19:48

Henin seemed pretty content with her first retirement. Safin like I said, basically took off 2006-2009... Becker didn't retire early, but he admitted that after Wimbledon 1994, he realised he probably isn't going to win another slam if Sampras is on the draw. The reason so many Slam winners stop winning around this age isn't merely physiological

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 19:51

legendkillarV2 wrote:Woods is second on the all time Major list. Yet he hasn't won one in what 6 years??

Tennis is lonely life and Woods plays on the PGA Tour which means he rarely travels out of the US and spend a long time travelling across the world like a Djokovic.

The case KR made for Safin who retired at 28 I think?

It's not uncommon for Slam winners to lose their mojo. Roddick another one who retired early.

Sorry Lk. But Saffin is not a good example and nor Roddick. I am talking about the best of the best.

Not won in six years is true but he yearns for it because he is driven. And i think you will find that Tiger gets more air mile points than Djoko Wink

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 19:59

skyeman wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Woods is second on the all time Major list. Yet he hasn't won one in what 6 years??

Tennis is lonely life and Woods plays on the PGA Tour which means he rarely travels out of the US and spend a long time travelling across the world like a Djokovic.

The case KR made for Safin who retired at 28 I think?

It's not uncommon for Slam winners to lose their mojo. Roddick another one who retired early.

Sorry Lk. But Saffin is not a good example and nor Roddick. I am talking about the best of the best.

Not won in six years is true but he yearns for it because he is driven. And i think you will find that Tiger gets more air mile points than Djoko

They are Slam winners.

Look at Sampras. Retired at 31 when he realised his best days were past him.

Like I said earlier Borg retired earlier. Becker stopped winning Slams at 28. Wilander stopped winning Slams at 25. Lendl took a break at 28.

Shows the true strain of tennis and only the exceptional ones who stay healthy like Federer have long rewarding careers

by Guest Mon 9 Jun - 20:03

Yeah people like Djoko Nadal Federer are obsessive winners, its a compulsion, nothings ever enough for them when it comes to success. Its when they retire that they come to really appreciate how privileged theyve been

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 20:06

Borg is the only player that could come into it.

Sampras? was he not driven

Becker did not stop playing at 28. Just won no more.

As i said the premier players just want the major titles.

by skyeman Mon 9 Jun - 20:07

falzy21 wrote:Yeah people like Djoko Nadal Federer are obsessive winners, its a compulsion, nothings ever enough for them when it comes to success. Its when they retire that they come to really appreciate how privileged theyve been

Exactly

by naxroy Thu 12 Jun - 5:48

rewatched the match tonight

they were both destroyed for the whole 4th set.
djokovic was blind not to see in that last serve, that just puting the ball in play would have been enough. nadal was dead

by Josiah Maiestas Thu 12 Jun - 21:11

I just find it hilarious and moronic when Djokovic glory hunters and tennis fans say that Novak is a player with no weaknesses. Worst overhead smash in the game with plenty of deer in the headlight moments. He looks done at winning big matches, i'll even say he would lose to Dan Evans if he made it to a GS final

by skyeman Thu 12 Jun - 21:13

Josiah Maiestas wrote:I just find it hilarious and moronic when Djokovic glory hunters and tennis fans say that Novak is a player with no weaknesses. Worst overhead smash in the game with plenty of deer in the headlight moments. He looks done at winning big matches, i'll even say he would lose to Dan Evans if he made it to a GS final

That is going to far Erm

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