European Rugby Champions Cup : Curiouser and curiouser

Yes I know that I'm supposed to be taking a summer break but the seedings process has just dropped into my in-box.

Who's the English champion club again?

Well apparently the organisers agree with me that the playoffs are a useless, stupid waste of time.

Because Sarries are the T1 side.

Odd. All very odd.

Anyhow I'm off again. (unless by PM).

Meantime read and inwardly digest:

Code:

Saracens, RC Toulon and Leinster Rugby are guaranteed top seeding when the pool draw for the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup takes place at the Stade de la Maladière in Neuchatel, Switzerland on Tuesday 10th June.

The event will get underway with the pool draw for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup at 12.00pm (UK and Irish time) which will be followed immediately by the draw for the European Rugby Champions Cup pools.

Both draws will be broadcast live on epcrugby.com and will also be covered on Sky Sports News, btsport.com, TG4 and Infosport + in France.

Follow the drama as it unfolds on Twitter @epcrugby using the #ERCCPoolDraw

Craig Doyle of BT Sport and Raphael Ibanez will be joint comperes in Neuchatel with former London Wasps and RC Toulon star, Simon Shaw, and Welsh legend, Scott Quinnell (Sky Sports analyst), on hand to conduct the draws.

Twenty clubs from the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 and the Pro12 have booked their places in the 2014/15 European Rugby Champions Cup, and for the first time, the clubs have qualified on merit.

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

The 20 clubs will be divided into four tiers of five based on their qualification positions from the Leagues. A draw will be conducted in advance to establish Tier 1 with two of the three second-ranked clubs – Northampton Saints, Castres Olympique and Glasgow Warriors – joining Saracens, Toulon and Leinster in the top tier.

Once Tier 1 has been established, the remaining three tiers will fall into place. Then the draw for the five pools will be made, and during the draw, some clubs may have to be placed directly into a pool in order to ensure that certain key principles apply (see below). In Tier 4, Sale Sharks and London Wasps will be drawn into pools which contain one other Aviva Premiership club, and Toulouse will be drawn into a pool which contains one other Top 14 club.

Stade Francais Paris, Exeter Chiefs and Cardiff Blues are confirmed among the top seeds for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup which will be conducted on similar lines with four tiers and five pools. In Tier 4, Oyonnax, Lyon and La Rochelle-ASR will be drawn into pools which contain one other Top 14 club.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked based on their League table finishing positions in advance of the knockout phase. The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases. For clubs which did not qualify for the knockout phases of their Leagues, or which were eliminated at the same stage of the knockout phase, rankings are decided by League table finishing positions.
 
Rank Premiership Top 14 Pro 12
1 Saracens RC Toulon Leinster Rugby
2 Northampton Saints Castres Olympique Glasgow Warriors
3 Leicester Tigers Montpellier Munster Rugby
4 Harlequins   Racing Metro 92 Ulster Rugby
5 Bath Rugby ASM Clermont Auvergne Ospreys
6 Sale Sharks Toulouse Scarlets
7 London Wasps   Benetton Treviso

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the clubs are ranked based on their finishing positions in the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Pro12 and PRO D2 Leagues, or on their qualification via a play-off.
 
Rank Top 14 Premiership Pro 12 Qualifying
1 Stade Francais Exeter Chiefs Cardiff Blues         FIRA-AER 1
2 Bordeaux-Bègles Gloucester Rugby Edinburgh Rugby FIRA-AER 2
3 Brive           London Irish NG Dragons
4 Bayonne Newcastle Falcons Connacht Rugby
5 Grenoble     London Welsh Zebre
6 Oyonnax    
7 Lyon    
8 La Rochelle-ASR    

EPCR pool draws – key principles

    The 20 clubs are divided into four tiers based on their qualification position from their Leagues. This will be done where necessary by a draw.
    Each of the five pools will have at least one club from each of the three Leagues.
    Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.
    There will be no more than two clubs from the same League in a pool.
    No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country.
    Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs.

EPCR Ezine
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Well Saracens might not get a top seed otherwise. We couldn't have that now could we?

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two

Will that now affect the play off system in the coming years?

bedfordwelsh wrote:For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two

Will that now affect the play off system in the coming years?

This sounds like a good idea in that the team that comes top gets a reward. If towards the end of the season the top two teams are clear of the rest they might otherwise ease off having already gained a home semi. Now they will both want the top spot.

Craig Doyle is enough. BT and Craig Doyle. This new dawn is starting with a well-manicured grey speaking whimper.

Can someone explain to me what's happening with the Challenge cup next year? I'm aware of the new European competition for next season but I'm not aware of the second and proposed 3rd tier tournaments. I'm assuming something must come into place or a number of pro clubs will be losing fixtures this year.

I'm also sceptical of any second tier tournament. The Blues for example would be far better off making sure they focus on better league placement and sending a second string side out if anything is going on because the value of winning it is now zero given that a auto European spot will not be available for the winner of it.

Its crazy to think that sides not playing in Europe will therefore (more than likely) focus their resources on their leagues putting substantial pressure on sides that have qualified for the main event. It almost makes their qualification for next year even harder for sides that will have qualified this year.

Same thing for the 2nd tier. Similar system of seeding based on league position.

Surely though no side participating in this tournament with genuine aspirations of playing in the top tournament will be to bothered by this. Cardiff Blues for example would be crazy to field their starting 15 in this tournament as no qualification for the Champions Cup will be available. French sides wont be sending out good sides either as their focus will be on staying in the TOP 14 and avoiding relegation. Cant see any real benefit to the Challenge cup at this stage.

It's very much the ugly sister. Especially for the teams that are facing relegation. London Welsh, La Rochelle, Lyon, Worcester etc. It won't be great and I think the decision to allocate the last place of the Tier 1 tournament to the winners of a convoluted playoff system instead of giving it to the Challenge Cup winners is a massive missed opportunity to put some lipstick on this pig at the very least.

Surely it's a good thing if the Blues 'can' focus on the league and not worry about Europe? It will make the league 'stronger' and there's more of it. The 2nd tier of Europe will remain what it always was, a chance to rest players, give younger/fringe/recovering players game time, used to gain confidence for teams that are on losing streaks in the league and/or a chance of winning a trophy.

A couple of big pluses for the new version, the really pointless games are removed (I don't believe anyone gains anything from the ridiculous one sided games and from Spanish teams pulling out means they don't even get enough to cover expenses) and the parachuted teams are gone (great way of devaluing the pool stages even more).

Pool 2

Leinster
Castres
Harlequins
Wasps


Pool 1

Saracens
Munster
Clermont
Sale

Pool 3

Toulon
Leicester
Ulster
Scarlets

Pool 4

Glasgow
Montpellier
Bath
Toulouse

Pool5

Northampton
Racing
Ospreys
Treviso

Wow, pool 1 & 3 are proper groups of death!

What's the qualification process? Is it as before the top teams from each group plus the 3 highest 2nd placed finishers? If so, you can only see one side from 1 & 3 qualifying.

If the seeding positions are added up for each pool:

Pools 2 and 3 are the hardest with a sum total of 14
Pool 1 is next with 15
Pool 4 has a total of 16
and by far the easiest is pool 5 with a total of 18

Nice to see Tigers & Ulster together again    It wouldn't be the same without 'em.

Again based on adding the seeding positions Wasps have the hardest task of any team being up against three teams with a combined total of 7, while Saints have the easiest against a combined seeding of 16.

Facing Hardest to Easiest opposition
Wasps 7
Scarlets 8
Sale 9
ASM 10
Quins 10
Ulster 10
Toulouse 10
Tigers 11
Bath 11
Treviso 11
Munster 12
Castres 12
Leinster 13
Toulon 13
Montpellier 13
Ospreys 13
Saracens 14
Glasgow 14
Racing 14
Saints 16

Dont care what the seedings say groups 1 and 3 are the hardest by a country mile

Group 5 is very weak

When are the fixtures due out folks ? Plans have to be made

BBC headline - ''English champions Northampton and Heineken Cup runners-up Saracens have been handed tough draws in the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup''.........toughest to easiest surely 3, 1, 2, 4, 5

geoff998rugby wrote:Dont care what the seedings say groups 1 and 3 are the hardest by a country mile

Group 5 is very weak

I agree. I wondered what the loud noise was which I heard about lunchtime. It was the NN5 postcode cheering.

Pool stage dates

Round 1: 16/17/18/19 October 2014
Round 2: 23/24/25/26 October 2014
Round 3: 4/5/6/7 December 2014
Round 4: 11/12/13/14 December 2014
Round 5: 15/16/17/18 January 2015
Round 6: 22/23/24/25 January 2015

no idea when the fixture will be announced - the EPCR website is pants and the little info I got was from the Premiership one ...

whocares wrote:Pool stage dates

Round 1: 16/17/18/19 October 2014
Round 2: 23/24/25/26 October 2014
Round 3: 4/5/6/7 December 2014
Round 4: 11/12/13/14 December 2014
Round 5: 15/16/17/18 January 2015
Round 6: 22/23/24/25 January 2015

no idea when the fixture will be announced - the EPCR website is pants and the little info I got was from the Premiership one ...

July, apparently.

Happy days - looking forward to the new tournament.

When talking about who has difficult or straightforward pools, it is interesting to look at where each of the teams placed in their respective domestic leagues at the end of the season (not the playoffs):

Pool 1

Saracens - 1st
Munster - 3rd
Clermont - 3rd
Sale - 6th

Pool 2

Leinster - 1st
Castres - 6th
Harlequins - 4th
Wasps - 7th

Pool 3

Toulon - 1st
Leicester - 3rd
Ulster - 4th
Scarlets - 6th

Pool 4

Glasgow - 2nd
Montpellier - 2nd
Bath - 5th
Toulouse - 4th

Pool 5

Northampton - 2nd
Racing - 5th
Ospreys - 5th
Treviso - 11th

To the extent you can determine anything at all from this (and admittedly, teams can be separated in leagues by a single point), it would suggest that Pools 1 and 4 might be the most competitive, in terms of the winners spot being realistically up for grabs.

From a Leinster POV can't complain too much - avoided all of the really big guns. No disrespect to Castres, Quins and Bath but Leinster really should be looking to top this group with enough points for a home QF.

Ulster have got the worst of it among the Irish teams and will probably be scrambling with Tigers for a best runner-up slot. Munster's draw is tough but Saracens have shown in their two recent finals that they are eminently beatable while Clermont look like another choker French team in decline - I's bet on Munster to win the group but whether they get enough points for a home QF is another matter - a fair chance of all the teams in this group taking points off each other.

Other than that, Saints and RM look likely qualifiers from pool 5 - in whichever order and Glasgow - if they continue the improvement of the second half of this season have a good chance of coming out of pool 4.

A long time away - but pools might turn out like this

Pool 1 - Munster
Pool 2 - Leinster and Quins
Pool 3 - Toulon and Tigers/Ulster
Pool 4 - Glasgow
Pool 5 - Saints and RM in whichever order

3 English (probably), 2 Irish, 2 French, 1 Scots with winners of 2, 3, 4, 5 maybe getting hope QF's

Glasgow really? they would have to take their pro12 form into europe as their previous HC record does not suggest they could get some wins in France. pool 4 is quite balanced and with no clear favourite.

whocares wrote:Glasgow really? they would have to take their pro12 form into europe as their previous HC record does not suggest they could get some wins in France. pool 4 is quite balanced and with no clear favourite.

Yes, we really need to stop stuffing it up in Europe. Although whocares, you will recall that we have beaten Toulouse and Biarritz in France in recent years. I honestly think that we can win the pool, but similarly I thought that this year and watched Cardiff Blues administer an appalling double wedgie which ended our hopes. Should never have happened, but it did.

BBC website says Saints have a tough draw. I cannot see that. They must have the easiest group.

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:Glasgow really? they would have to take their pro12 form into europe as their previous HC record does not suggest they could get some wins in France. pool 4 is quite balanced and with no clear favourite.

Yes, we really need to stop stuffing it up in Europe. Although whocares, you will recall that we have beaten Toulouse and Biarritz in France in recent years. I honestly think that we can win the pool, but similarly I thought that this year and watched Cardiff Blues administer an appalling double wedgie which ended our hopes. Should never have happened, but it did.

I do recall the "famous win" in Toulouse back in 2009 but Biarritz away you sure?

whocares wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

whocares wrote:Glasgow really? they would have to take their pro12 form into europe as their previous HC record does not suggest they could get some wins in France. pool 4 is quite balanced and with no clear favourite.

Yes, we really need to stop stuffing it up in Europe. Although whocares, you will recall that we have beaten Toulouse and Biarritz in France in recent years. I honestly think that we can win the pool, but similarly I thought that this year and watched Cardiff Blues administer an appalling double wedgie which ended our hopes. Should never have happened, but it did.

I do recall the "famous win" in Toulouse back in 2009 but Biarritz away you sure?

It's unclear. I was ver, ver drunk.

Exiledinborders wrote:BBC website says Saints have a tough draw. I cannot see that. They must have the easiest group.

I saw that and was laughing at how we all see it differently. My slant would be that 1 and 3 pools are the tough ones.

Well groups are tougher with 4 teams dropped

However - never turn up Racing, falling apart Ospreys, weakest team in the competition Treviso
constitute the easiest group by any rational measure

Saints have landed on their feet big time.

This is the Ospreys biggest chance yet! Tbd they have had some really tough groups the last few years so they really must take this chance.

Can teams from the same pool meet again in the quarters? For example, Saints top their group taking seed 1 and Ospreys finish second taking seed 8?

Long way out but I'll back Northampton, Toulon, Glasgow, Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Quins, Ospreys.  Between pools 1 and 3 there are several teams who are very strong at home and a couple that are borderline unbeatable. Runner up spots might be very difficult to come by.

They could under the old system

BTW...could we get a main sponsor onboard soon for these competitions!  It was so much easier to talk about them when you could use HEC and Amlin.

Now you have the world vying for the bloody word "Champion" in the title and it's getting pretty confusing and irritating for the partially dilesticx like me!!!

You've got The Rugby Championship in the SH, the European Rugby Champions Cup (ERCC), the European Rugby Challenge Cup (ERCC) The European Championship (football), The Champions League (football)  The European Tiddlywinks Championship (ETC) .................!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come back Heineken...all is forgiven.

Midi Olympic reporting that no organisation has bid for the French rights to the tournaments yet.  

Midi Olympic says that the 27m valuation by the Rugby Chump guys is too high.

I also nearly feel sorry for the French guys who wanted the management moved to switzerland - the swiss parliament are going to vote shortly on making all sporting organisations publish accounts shortly so there will be no funny business going on  

PRL and LNR guaranteed a minimum level of money for the Pro12 didn't they are part of the new deal. Once the tv revenue starts going through the roof they will rake in the cash however until then this might just keep a bit of parity across Europe for a season or two.

Transparency and publication of accounts will be a good thing of course. It is however a very tricky location to ever get out the business out of.

Pools 1 and 3 are crazy! Got to feel a bit sorry for Sale and Scarlets.

Agree that Saints should top their pool.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:PRL and LNR guaranteed a minimum level of money for the Pro12 didn't they are part of the new deal.  Once the tv revenue starts going through the roof they will rake in the cash however until then this might just keep a bit of parity across Europe for a season or two.

Transparency and publication of accounts will be a good thing of course.  It is however a very tricky location to ever get out the business out of.

There was a report in the Telegraph (I think) about a week ago about how BT are in trouble with Prices Commission (or whatever they are called) with their broadband pricing.

It might be a bit of a bubble after all.

well thank god we cut down the number of entrants that the Rabble have before BT goes bankrupt

it was never about the money it was always about screwing over the Celts

Cheers Quins.

Though to be honest I couldn't quite understand how people were turning down a nice trip to Galway to play Connacht, pick up 9-10 points and enjoy a couple of pints before/during/afterwards. Maybe it was more just jealousy that only 3 teams each year got to enjoy that.

It will be interesting to see what BT does over the next couple of years. They've made the splash and shaken things up. What will be the result when the dust settles (BT v Sky).

Sin é wrote:I also nearly feel sorry for the French guys who wanted the management moved to switzerland - the swiss parliament are going to vote shortly on making all sporting organisations publish accounts shortly so there will be no funny business going on  

I can't see Septic Bladder allowing that to go through   

Where BT go with this could be very interesting - they've broken the bank paying over the odds for rugby, the EPL and especially the Champions League rights, but have no other really attractive sports beyond that - UFC? Womens Tennis?
The filler shows are pretty awful, has anyone seen the Danny Baker and Danny Kelly shows, I love both of them as broadcasters on the radio but the the TV programmes are just embarassing, and even they are taking the pi55 out of the station content outside of the above sports! The less said about other guff like "The Footballs On" the better.
I know that this is in some ways small beer to BT and they can take the short/medium term financial hit but a law of diminishing viewing figures will kick in sooner or later and what then happens to rugby if the golden boobie suddenly gets turned off?

Ok so now everyone is on board with the new tournament, all the whipping boys gone from the big boys way of qualification, and the tournament made a fairer representation of European rugby...

Sale will struggle, wasps will struggle, Trevino and Scarlett's will struggle, being the whipping boys of their group, the welsh and Italian unions should lose a club each, it's not fair they're presenting whipping boys,

There are 6 ties in which we will see those 6 ties play in the league anyway, (Sarries v sale / mont v Toul / quins v wasps),

And 3 nations have had their representation halved, meaning half the interest from half of the nations involved.

As an outsider the competition looks much less desirable and interesting as it did last year!

Out of interest, where are you from Neutralee?

I am from the USA originally, but live and work in the uk. There isn't much US chat here, and since I've been in the uk for over a decade I probably know more about the game here than home.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Pool 2

Leinster
Castres
Harlequins
Wasps

Only just seen this but for f*cks sake. After last seasons getting Clermont and the two seasons before that getting Toulouse you'd think Quins may get a slightly easier pool for once.

Gonna be a tough year. Glad we signed all those extra forwards now... Oh wait.

yappysnap wrote:

Only just seen this  

3 to 4 weeks holidays under a rock in Antarctica with no internet?

So what's the deal with this thing,have sponsors been announced,is there a T.V. deal sorted in France yet.The official website is pretty sparse and doesn't seem to offer much detail.

Midi Olympic reporting yesterday via @gavinmortimer7:

''European rugby still having trouble flogging TV rights to France for Champions Cup. M.O says Conference Call planned today for those keen''

No news yet! Looks like the Top 14 & PRL will be supporting the Pro12 a lot more than they thought they would be! They had a better deal with the ERC!

Sin é wrote:Midi Olympic reporting yesterday via @gavinmortimer7:

''European rugby still having trouble flogging TV rights to France for Champions Cup. M.O says Conference Call planned today for those keen''

No news yet! Looks like the Top 14 & PRL will be supporting the Pro12 a lot more than they thought they would be! They had a better deal with the ERC!

The Return of the King.  

This time in the guise of McCafferty.  Back in the saddle again as he'll want a public burning of the new contracts and agreements and a new series of talks and revisions now to drop down Pro12 contributions to the European Championship to just one side every year.  One token Pro12 participant, preferably an Italian oside because Italy has 60 million satelite dishes and TV aerials.