European Rugby Champions Cup : Curiouser and curiouser

First topic message reminder :

Yes I know that I'm supposed to be taking a summer break but the seedings process has just dropped into my in-box.

Who's the English champion club again?

Well apparently the organisers agree with me that the playoffs are a useless, stupid waste of time.

Because Sarries are the T1 side.

Odd. All very odd.

Anyhow I'm off again. (unless by PM).

Meantime read and inwardly digest:

Code:

Saracens, RC Toulon and Leinster Rugby are guaranteed top seeding when the pool draw for the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup takes place at the Stade de la Maladière in Neuchatel, Switzerland on Tuesday 10th June.

The event will get underway with the pool draw for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup at 12.00pm (UK and Irish time) which will be followed immediately by the draw for the European Rugby Champions Cup pools.

Both draws will be broadcast live on epcrugby.com and will also be covered on Sky Sports News, btsport.com, TG4 and Infosport + in France.

Follow the drama as it unfolds on Twitter @epcrugby using the #ERCCPoolDraw

Craig Doyle of BT Sport and Raphael Ibanez will be joint comperes in Neuchatel with former London Wasps and RC Toulon star, Simon Shaw, and Welsh legend, Scott Quinnell (Sky Sports analyst), on hand to conduct the draws.

Twenty clubs from the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 and the Pro12 have booked their places in the 2014/15 European Rugby Champions Cup, and for the first time, the clubs have qualified on merit.

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

The 20 clubs will be divided into four tiers of five based on their qualification positions from the Leagues. A draw will be conducted in advance to establish Tier 1 with two of the three second-ranked clubs – Northampton Saints, Castres Olympique and Glasgow Warriors – joining Saracens, Toulon and Leinster in the top tier.

Once Tier 1 has been established, the remaining three tiers will fall into place. Then the draw for the five pools will be made, and during the draw, some clubs may have to be placed directly into a pool in order to ensure that certain key principles apply (see below). In Tier 4, Sale Sharks and London Wasps will be drawn into pools which contain one other Aviva Premiership club, and Toulouse will be drawn into a pool which contains one other Top 14 club.

Stade Francais Paris, Exeter Chiefs and Cardiff Blues are confirmed among the top seeds for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup which will be conducted on similar lines with four tiers and five pools. In Tier 4, Oyonnax, Lyon and La Rochelle-ASR will be drawn into pools which contain one other Top 14 club.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked based on their League table finishing positions in advance of the knockout phase. The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases. For clubs which did not qualify for the knockout phases of their Leagues, or which were eliminated at the same stage of the knockout phase, rankings are decided by League table finishing positions.
 
Rank Premiership Top 14 Pro 12
1 Saracens RC Toulon Leinster Rugby
2 Northampton Saints Castres Olympique Glasgow Warriors
3 Leicester Tigers Montpellier Munster Rugby
4 Harlequins   Racing Metro 92 Ulster Rugby
5 Bath Rugby ASM Clermont Auvergne Ospreys
6 Sale Sharks Toulouse Scarlets
7 London Wasps   Benetton Treviso

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the clubs are ranked based on their finishing positions in the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Pro12 and PRO D2 Leagues, or on their qualification via a play-off.
 
Rank Top 14 Premiership Pro 12 Qualifying
1 Stade Francais Exeter Chiefs Cardiff Blues         FIRA-AER 1
2 Bordeaux-Bègles Gloucester Rugby Edinburgh Rugby FIRA-AER 2
3 Brive           London Irish NG Dragons
4 Bayonne Newcastle Falcons Connacht Rugby
5 Grenoble     London Welsh Zebre
6 Oyonnax    
7 Lyon    
8 La Rochelle-ASR    

EPCR pool draws – key principles

    The 20 clubs are divided into four tiers based on their qualification position from their Leagues. This will be done where necessary by a draw.
    Each of the five pools will have at least one club from each of the three Leagues.
    Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.
    There will be no more than two clubs from the same League in a pool.
    No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country.
    Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs.

EPCR Ezine
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Sin é wrote:

cface wrote:The PRO12 announced their new sponsor and fixtures for the coming season (starting 1st week of September) in the 2nd week of last month.  If the European cups (starting 3rd week of October) leave it similarly late they'll make announcements around the end of the month.

Completely different - not as many travelling fans (even fans coming back home for the games).

The incompetent ERC managed to announce them on 22 July last year by the way.

Intesting time for Bruce Craig to actually take up an executive position with Bath bearing in mind he is meant to be spearheading this new organisation as one of the three directors on the executive committee and this new organisation doesn't have a CEO or Independent Chair yet.

Wonder have the Unions given him his marching orders as they try and pick the pieces after he destroying one of the best competitions around.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/TOM-BRADSHAW-Bruce-Craig-s-executive-role/story-22017540-detail/story.html

Bruce looks like he's auditioning for Strictly Come Dancing in that picture.

Not enough sequins

HammerofThunor wrote:Not enough sequins

Or that he teaches a salsa class in the Walcot community centre every Friday.

He appears to be a man who likes a good cha-cha-cha.

Notch

So how do those facts translate to certain promises made, will the Rabo teams still receive their full £££ even if it means the English clubs not getting theirs, or will the PRL be the first to take out of the kity that isn't there yet?

As i've stated my views previously this years competition isn't as attractive to me as last, is this partly down to non promotion so far? Could it be down to me not having BT sports, and not bothering to get it?

Is there a chance this will all fall through last minute, if other sponsers aren't convinced to invest?

He is a ringer for Michael Flatley - even got the castle.

Neutralee wrote:Notch

So how do those facts translate to certain promises made, will the Rabo teams still receive their full £££ even if it means the English clubs not getting theirs, or will the PRL be the first to take out of the kity that isn't there yet?

As i've stated my views previously this years competition isn't as attractive to me as last, is this partly down to non promotion so far? Could it be down to me not having BT sports, and not bothering to get it?

Is there a chance this will all fall through last minute, if other sponsers aren't convinced to invest?

PRO12 teams are guaranteed 20m (which will be covered by the BT/Sky deal for starters). The PRL know how important that money is to the Welsh Regions so wouldn't let them down.

As far as i can see the last two places in the European Rugby Challenge Cup, are made up of the winners and runners up in the Regional Rugby Championship
http://rrcrugby.com/index.php/match-center/fixtures-and-results-playoff

but it finished in May and the two would have been HARK Mladost and RK Nada

But that would leave no place for București Wolves, who have been in th esecond tier for years!


going by wiki for the challenge Cup
Two teams will qualify through the Qualifying Competition, which will involve the 4 best teams from Italy's National Championship of Excellence, plus club sides from second-tier European rugby nations.

Haven't seen anything about this Qualifying Competition, but I already don't like the sound of it.
If Italians enter 4 teams it leaves the possiblity of Zebre playing Crociati Parma Rugby F.C or the like.
if 4 Italian teams get in why not some Welsh Premiership teams, and League of Ireland teams etc
It opens the possibilty of Cardiff Blues V Cardiff RFC? which would be madness.

Think Italy entering the Pro 12 should mean that domestic clubs do not get entry into Europe same as applies to Wales Scotland and Ireland.

Italians won't enter Zebre or Treviso into the qualifying competition Kingshu, because by being in the Pro12 they are already qualified for at least the second tier competition and one of them will always be in the first tier competition.

By four Italian sides they mean their club sides, not Zebre or Treviso.

I think he means that the Italian could get 3 teams into the top two tiers, whereas the Welsh, Irish and Scottish are limited to the fixed amount.

I can't see the RRC being the qualifying competition.

hammer is right
Zebre are in the challange cup,
but the Italians have 4 club teams entering the qualifying competition for the final 2 places in the Challange cup

I believe they shouldn't be allowed to enter club teams into this qualification tournament, being in the Pro 12 should exclude domestic clubs from Europe same was as it does for Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

What would happen if a feeder team meets the main team in a competition, say Zebre V Crociati Parma Rugby F.C?

It means the Italians could get 4 teams in the top two European cups,
Treviso in top tier cup
Zebre plus 2 qualifers in 2nd tier cup.

Which is more than Scotland get, so from a SRU point of view this is a bit of an unfair advantage. Italains with 2 Pro teams in the same league should be treated the same as Scotland.

Does this mean that if 2 Italian clubs make it into the 2nd teir cup with Zebre, or even just one, they would get a larger % of the monies than the SRU who only have one in each?


I know that Italians need more development but this isn't the way. We don't have clubs in Europe instead we have the BandI cup, the italians should be encouraged to have similar not Europe.

Maybe something like a ProD2 teams, italian top 4 and București Wolves and the like (Wild Rugby Academy in Germany)?

Sin é wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Notch

So how do those facts translate to certain promises made, will the Rabo teams still receive their full £££ even if it means the English clubs not getting theirs, or will the PRL be the first to take out of the kity that isn't there yet?

As i've stated my views previously this years competition isn't as attractive to me as last, is this partly down to non promotion so far? Could it be down to me not having BT sports, and not bothering to get it?

Is there a chance this will all fall through last minute, if other sponsers aren't convinced to invest?

PRO12 teams are guaranteed 20m (which will be covered by the BT/Sky deal for starters). The PRL know how important that money is to the Welsh Regions so wouldn't let them down.

But from what ive read the WRU would be happy if the regions were let down in that way, why would the PRL be so accomodating to the Welsh regions? They owe them nothing.

Without the Welsh Regions, the PRL would have had no one to play with. The RRW withdrew from the Heineken Cup to play in the New Champs Cup (when everyone else were sticking with the Union organised competition.

Kingshu wrote:hammer is right
Zebre are in the challange cup,
but the Italians have 4 club teams entering the qualifying competition for the final 2 places in the Challange cup

I believe they shouldn't be allowed to enter club teams into this qualification tournament, being in the Pro 12 should exclude domestic clubs from Europe same was as it does for Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

What would happen if a feeder team meets the main team in a competition, say Zebre V Crociati Parma Rugby F.C?

It means the Italians could get 4 teams in the top two European cups,
Treviso in top tier cup
Zebre plus 2 qualifers in 2nd tier cup.

Which is more than Scotland get, so from a SRU point of view this is a bit of an unfair advantage. Italains with 2 Pro teams in the same league should be treated the same as Scotland.

Does this mean that if 2 Italian clubs make it into the 2nd teir cup with Zebre, or even just one, they would get a larger % of the monies than the SRU who only have one in each?


I know that Italians need more development but this isn't the way. We don't have clubs in Europe instead we have the BandI cup, the italians should be encouraged to have similar not Europe.

Maybe something like a ProD2 teams, italian top 4 and București Wolves and the like (Wild Rugby Academy in Germany)?

I have literally no issues with any of that. Firstly, it was already happening in the Amlin and secondly the top teams in Italy below Zebre and Treviso are decent. Not at a level to be competitive in the tier 2 tournament but they will raise the standards of the Qualifying competition. Let's be honest, the two qualifiers are just here to make up the numbers in the Tier 2 competition right now so it's the standards in the third tier competition that really matter here. I'd also have no issue if Scotland or Wales was to enter teams into this. The more teams enter the higher the level of competition will be.

Italian sides should be seeded to keep them apart in the group stages, which is easily done by making sure the qualifiers can't be drawn into the same pool as the Italian side in the Tier 2 competition.

The top Irish, Welsh and Scottish* league clubs already have the B&I cup. This is currently played in the same window as the two main Euro comps.

There's no room to include them in the Qualifying comp...unless the lower teams in those leagues are considered.

The Italian league is a pro league so I would say their inclusion in the Qualifying comp is probably more merited. 

* The Scottish clubs have withdrawn from this season's B&I cup.

Re my 2nd para above. The Irish and Welsh teams could go into the Qualifying comp, and if successful, cede their B&I place to another team from their league.

A problem would be fixture planning for the B&I cup, given the Qualifying comp will not be completed until September and the first round of all Euro comps is mid October.