European Rugby Champions Cup : Curiouser and curiouser

First topic message reminder :

Yes I know that I'm supposed to be taking a summer break but the seedings process has just dropped into my in-box.

Who's the English champion club again?

Well apparently the organisers agree with me that the playoffs are a useless, stupid waste of time.

Because Sarries are the T1 side.

Odd. All very odd.

Anyhow I'm off again. (unless by PM).

Meantime read and inwardly digest:

Code:

Saracens, RC Toulon and Leinster Rugby are guaranteed top seeding when the pool draw for the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup takes place at the Stade de la Maladière in Neuchatel, Switzerland on Tuesday 10th June.

The event will get underway with the pool draw for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup at 12.00pm (UK and Irish time) which will be followed immediately by the draw for the European Rugby Champions Cup pools.

Both draws will be broadcast live on epcrugby.com and will also be covered on Sky Sports News, btsport.com, TG4 and Infosport + in France.

Follow the drama as it unfolds on Twitter @epcrugby using the #ERCCPoolDraw

Craig Doyle of BT Sport and Raphael Ibanez will be joint comperes in Neuchatel with former London Wasps and RC Toulon star, Simon Shaw, and Welsh legend, Scott Quinnell (Sky Sports analyst), on hand to conduct the draws.

Twenty clubs from the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 and the Pro12 have booked their places in the 2014/15 European Rugby Champions Cup, and for the first time, the clubs have qualified on merit.

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

The 20 clubs will be divided into four tiers of five based on their qualification positions from the Leagues. A draw will be conducted in advance to establish Tier 1 with two of the three second-ranked clubs – Northampton Saints, Castres Olympique and Glasgow Warriors – joining Saracens, Toulon and Leinster in the top tier.

Once Tier 1 has been established, the remaining three tiers will fall into place. Then the draw for the five pools will be made, and during the draw, some clubs may have to be placed directly into a pool in order to ensure that certain key principles apply (see below). In Tier 4, Sale Sharks and London Wasps will be drawn into pools which contain one other Aviva Premiership club, and Toulouse will be drawn into a pool which contains one other Top 14 club.

Stade Francais Paris, Exeter Chiefs and Cardiff Blues are confirmed among the top seeds for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup which will be conducted on similar lines with four tiers and five pools. In Tier 4, Oyonnax, Lyon and La Rochelle-ASR will be drawn into pools which contain one other Top 14 club.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked based on their League table finishing positions in advance of the knockout phase. The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases. For clubs which did not qualify for the knockout phases of their Leagues, or which were eliminated at the same stage of the knockout phase, rankings are decided by League table finishing positions.
 
Rank Premiership Top 14 Pro 12
1 Saracens RC Toulon Leinster Rugby
2 Northampton Saints Castres Olympique Glasgow Warriors
3 Leicester Tigers Montpellier Munster Rugby
4 Harlequins   Racing Metro 92 Ulster Rugby
5 Bath Rugby ASM Clermont Auvergne Ospreys
6 Sale Sharks Toulouse Scarlets
7 London Wasps   Benetton Treviso

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the clubs are ranked based on their finishing positions in the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Pro12 and PRO D2 Leagues, or on their qualification via a play-off.
 
Rank Top 14 Premiership Pro 12 Qualifying
1 Stade Francais Exeter Chiefs Cardiff Blues         FIRA-AER 1
2 Bordeaux-Bègles Gloucester Rugby Edinburgh Rugby FIRA-AER 2
3 Brive           London Irish NG Dragons
4 Bayonne Newcastle Falcons Connacht Rugby
5 Grenoble     London Welsh Zebre
6 Oyonnax    
7 Lyon    
8 La Rochelle-ASR    

EPCR pool draws – key principles

    The 20 clubs are divided into four tiers based on their qualification position from their Leagues. This will be done where necessary by a draw.
    Each of the five pools will have at least one club from each of the three Leagues.
    Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.
    There will be no more than two clubs from the same League in a pool.
    No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country.
    Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs.

EPCR Ezine
You have received this news story as a subscriber to the ERC Ezine and you will continue to recieve news and ezines from European Professional Club Rugby.

I guess the French tv companies don't think there is a market to broadcast Castre seconds vs Wasps et al.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Only just seen this  

3 to 4 weeks holidays under a rock in Antarctica with no internet?

  

Something like that, I spent some time in Wales which had a similar effect.

They can't get a sponsor. Can't sell the french TV rights. And now they have to get the ERC to run their comp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10955459/European-Rugby-Cup-officials-seconded-to-run-the-inaugural-European-Rugby-Champions-Cup.html

To $$ ers. How long before they try to Welsh on the payments to the 4 pro12 unions?

That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

Have you seen their website? The words pi $$ up and brewery come to mind.

You would think they could at least write a few competition rules on the back of an envelope and get one of their 14 year old chosen to fire them at their website?

How long do you need to do that?

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

In fairness, I think the major obstacle to be overcome was the BT v Sky problem created by the PRL selling the rights piecemeal.

That was always the most likely outcome, part of the reason I found people who complained about the 'incompetence' of the ERC so amusing/infuriating. Even before they decided to subcontract the running of the new tournament it was always likely to be the same people working for a new organisation.

EPRC are looking for staff with experience in running European Rugby tournaments. ERC staff are all out of a job and also the only people around with experience in running European Rugby tournaments. Most staff will probably move over if they are willing to relocate to Switzerland in the long term.

Well yeah. The Celtic unions were adamant they were going on without the English before the changed their minds (was is October when they said they were having a 20 team competition made of the Pro12 and whatever French teams they could convince to take part?

Then they pulled a switcheroo and wanted in. Leaving it very late to organise it. They year was always going to be a man sausage up because of them. I would have preferred an English cup but hopefully it'll just be the one year.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

In fairness, I think the major obstacle to be overcome was the BT v Sky problem created by the PRL selling the rights piecemeal.

Which could begin to be resolved until the unions said they wanted to join the English clubs. Once you get sat round agreeing to leave the ERC they could proceed. The unions were saying over and over the ERC would running things until they finally said they wouldn't be (oh the irony)

HammerofThunor wrote:Well yeah. The Celtic unions were adamant they were going on without the English before the changed their minds (was is October when they said they were having a 20 team competition made of the Pro12 and whatever French teams they could convince to take part?

Then they pulled a switcheroo and wanted in. Leaving it very late to organise it. They year was always going to be a man sausage up because of them. I would have preferred an English cup but hopefully it'll just be the one year.

Em..................... some creative rethinking there, Hammer.  It was actually the PRL (all on it's lonesome.......oh sorry, they had the RFU in their pocket, but the RFU were acting honest broker of course...whistle, whistle and all that) .... but it was actually the PRL who kept saying No to everything and that they were going on their own.  They had enough loadsa money from their new domestic BT deal to survive on their own, concentrating on their own domestic league and fecking off the rest of the European turncoats, double agents, deceivers, rascals and pimps.
But the real juice was of course being spouted by their agent, the RFU, who kept pleading that they were only interested in everybody being 'fwiends' and that things could still get sorted.  Or to put it another way "Please lets invent something to let the English clubs back in!!  We need Europe too!!!!"

Nice history revision though Hammer.  The Celts came running to PRL to save them.  Ahhhh...so sweet.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

In fairness, I think the major obstacle to be overcome was the BT v Sky problem created by the PRL selling the rights piecemeal.

Which could begin to be resolved until the unions said they wanted to join the English clubs. Once you get sat round agreeing to leave the ERC they could proceed. The unions were saying over and over the ERC would running things until they finally said they wouldn't be (oh the irony)

Well, it looks like the PRL & LNR don't know their ass from their elbow when organising cross border competitions. Maybe they could have appreciated how much more intricate it is when you are dealing with several broadcasters.

Anyway, after all the bad mouthing of the ERC (and its staff) - how thick does that make the Craigs & Nigels of this world look.

Hopefully they will might learn that you should never kick someone when they are down, you might need them again.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well yeah. The Celtic unions were adamant they were going on without the English before the changed their minds (was is October when they said they were having a 20 team competition made of the Pro12 and whatever French teams they could convince to take part?

Then they pulled a switcheroo and wanted in. Leaving it very late to organise it. They year was always going to be a man sausage up because of them. I would have preferred an English cup but hopefully it'll just be the one year.

Em..................... some creative rethinking there, Hammer.  It was actually the PRL (all on it's lonesome.......oh sorry, they had the RFU in their pocket, but the RFU were acting honest broker of course...whistle, whistle and all that) .... but it was actually the PRL who kept saying No to everything and that they were going on their own.  They had enough loadsa money from their new domestic BT deal to survive on their own, concentrating on their own domestic league and fecking off the rest of the European turncoats, double agents, deceivers, rascals and pimps.
But the real juice was of course being spouted by their agent, the RFU, who kept pleading that they were only interested in everybody being 'fwiends' and that things could still get sorted.  Or to put it another way "Please lets invent something to let the English clubs back in!!  We need Europe too!!!!"

Nice history revision though Hammer.  The Celts came running to PRL to save them.  Ahhhh...so sweet.

The PRL wanted competition changes. The unions agreed to this changes back in October. They wanted the money split 3 ways between the leagues. The unions agreed that back in October. They wanted a new organisation to run it..the unions refused that, then refused that, then accepted that. Leaving it too late for a new structure to be set up properly in time. Well done them. It should have been sorted 6 months previous to that. Just as the competition structure should have been sorted a year before. Unfortunately they were playing chicken.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

In fairness, I think the major obstacle to be overcome was the BT v Sky problem created by the PRL selling the rights piecemeal.

Which could begin to be resolved until the unions said they wanted to join the English clubs. Once you get sat round agreeing to leave the ERC they could proceed. The unions were saying over and over the ERC would running things until they finally said they wouldn't be (oh the irony)

Well, it looks like the PRL & LNR don't know their ass from their elbow when organising cross border competitions. Maybe they could have appreciated how much more intricate it is when you are dealing with several broadcasters.

Anyway, after all the bad mouthing of the ERC (and its staff) - how thick does that make the Craigs & Nigels of this world look.

Hopefully they will might learn that you should never kick someone when they are down, you might need them again.

Isn't the competition run by a board made up of all those involved? Pretty sure I remember you saying that nothing had changed on the competition running board.

The PRL wanted more than competition changes. They wanted (and got) to control the competition.

The major problem was dealing with the legal implications of the two TV deals.

Having never run a cross border competition, they showed complete arrogance by thinking they could sell their own media rights and BT were probably as clueless to go along with it.

Anyway, they got what they were looking for - a shambles.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well yeah. The Celtic unions were adamant they were going on without the English before the changed their minds (was is October when they said they were having a 20 team competition made of the Pro12 and whatever French teams they could convince to take part?

Then they pulled a switcheroo and wanted in. Leaving it very late to organise it. They year was always going to be a man sausage up because of them. I would have preferred an English cup but hopefully it'll just be the one year.

Em..................... some creative rethinking there, Hammer.  It was actually the PRL (all on it's lonesome.......oh sorry, they had the RFU in their pocket, but the RFU were acting honest broker of course...whistle, whistle and all that) .... but it was actually the PRL who kept saying No to everything and that they were going on their own.  They had enough loadsa money from their new domestic BT deal to survive on their own, concentrating on their own domestic league and fecking off the rest of the European turncoats, double agents, deceivers, rascals and pimps.
But the real juice was of course being spouted by their agent, the RFU, who kept pleading that they were only interested in everybody being 'fwiends' and that things could still get sorted.  Or to put it another way "Please lets invent something to let the English clubs back in!!  We need Europe too!!!!"

Nice history revision though Hammer.  The Celts came running to PRL to save them.  Ahhhh...so sweet.

The PRL wanted competition changes. The unions agreed to this changes back in October. They wanted the money split 3 ways between the leagues. The unions agreed that back in October. They wanted a new organisation to run it..the unions refused that, then refused that, then accepted that. Leaving it too late for a new structure to be set up properly in time. Well done them. It should have been sorted 6 months previous to that. Just as the competition structure should have been sorted a year before. Unfortunately they were playing chicken.

You're right.  We should have all trusted the PRL from the very beginning.  The Natural Leaders of European Rugby.  It's a given that such a truth should be known and accepted by all.  Either that or Blackest Blackmailers in Europe.  Take your pick.  Or as the RFU might say "We're honest brokers, us...we ain't got no ulterior motive here to help English rugby kick the rest of you in the nuts."  

Trust in Meeee.  Trust in me.  Close your eyes...and trust in me.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when some unions stall the change, ensuring there is very little time to do anything. The   

In fairness, I think the major obstacle to be overcome was the BT v Sky problem created by the PRL selling the rights piecemeal.

Which could begin to be resolved until the unions said they wanted to join the English clubs. Once you get sat round agreeing to leave the ERC they could proceed. The unions were saying over and over the ERC would running things until they finally said they wouldn't be (oh the irony)

Well, it looks like the PRL & LNR don't know their ass from their elbow when organising cross border competitions. Maybe they could have appreciated how much more intricate it is when you are dealing with several broadcasters.

Anyway, after all the bad mouthing of the ERC (and its staff) - how thick does that make the Craigs & Nigels of this world look.

Hopefully they will might learn that you should never kick someone when they are down, you might need them again.

Isn't the competition run by a board made up of all those involved? Pretty sure I remember you saying that nothing had changed on the competition running board.

There is change on the executive running the competition. We have a rep from PRL, LNR & PRO12 meant to be guiding a CEO who doesn't exist. The people on the Board meet once every couple of months.

Too many chiefs and no indians.

Still, it is funny that the nigels have to go cap in hand to the ERC   There was absolutely no need for the comments they made about the ERC. The LNR/FFR did not decend to their level of vitriol towards the ERC. It will take some brass neck (which is what the Nigels have) to look Derek McGrath in the face. I hope he screws them for every penny he can get.

Sin e wrote:Yea, so abusive that the NewCo is retaining the ERC CEO until next October to set up the new competition, several ERC staff are being offered their old jobs back (but they have to move to Switzerland) and the new 3 man executive have to get the approval of the main board (same 9 directors as ERC).

The only thing that has changed is that the base is moved to Switzerland, a couple of people have to move country if they want to retain their jobs, admin costs are going up by 35% and the onus is on the clubs now to produce the cash.

https://www.606v2.com/t53170p50-the-new-european-cup-thread-part-2-competition-format

So is what you said back then wrong?

I know back then it was "aha they wanted change but it's all the same haha"
Now it's "they wanted change and they got, look at the mess they've made"

This is what I said back then in that thread :

Yea, so abusive that the NewCo is retaining the ERC CEO until next October to set up the new competition, several ERC staff are being offered their old jobs back (but they have to move to Switzerland) and the new 3 man executive have to get the approval of the main board (same 9 directors as ERC).

Sin é wrote:The only thing that has changed is that the base is moved to Switzerland, a couple of people have to move country if they want to retain their jobs, admin costs are going up by 35% and the onus is on the clubs now to produce the cash.

Yeah, you were making the point that little had changed and they were only going to cost more due to the lack of tax avoidance basing it in Ireland.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah, you were making the point that little had changed and they were only going to cost more due to the lack of tax avoidance basing it in Ireland.

I think increase is due to a higher cost of living in Switzerland and all the extra travel etc. that will need to be done. Neuchatal isn't exactly the easiest place to get to from most parts of the UK, Ireland and France (handy for Clermont and a few in the South East part of France).

The sporting tax exemption is probably pointless at this moment in time as they won't be making any money and it looks like the new Champs Cup will be heavily subsidised by the PRL & LNR!

Fairplay to the Unions - they screwed the PRL & LNR and they didn't even notice it. Who looks like amateurs now?

Sin é wrote:Fairplay to the Unions - they screwed the PRL & LNR and they didn't even notice it. Who looks like amateurs now?

You live in La La land.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fairplay to the Unions - they screwed the PRL & LNR and they didn't even notice it. Who looks like amateurs now?

You live in La La land.

We are all breaking our sides laughing over here in La La land.

The PRL & LNR (not the RFU or FFR) have to finance the this new cup as they guaranteed the PRO12 teams 20m. With no sponsors, French media rights apparently 10% of what they were when the ERC were in charge, that leaves the only income coming from the Sky/BT deal which won't leave a lot to set up and run the organisation, pay the new directors fees and pay the pro12 teams 20million.

The PRL & LNR made the mistake of guaranteeing the PRO12 teams 20m - it means they won't give Poopie as they are going to get their money anyway.

SecretFly wrote:

Em..................... some creative rethinking there, Hammer.  It was actually the PRL (all on it's lonesome.......oh sorry, they had the RFU in their pocket, but the RFU were acting honest broker of course...whistle, whistle and all that) .... but it was actually the PRL who kept saying No to everything and that they were going on their own.  They had enough loadsa money from their new domestic BT deal to survive on their own, concentrating on their own domestic league and fecking off the rest of the European turncoats, double agents, deceivers, rascals and pimps.
But the real juice was of course being spouted by their agent, the RFU, who kept pleading that they were only interested in everybody being 'fwiends' and that things could still get sorted.  Or to put it another way "Please lets invent something to let the English clubs back in!!  We need Europe too!!!!"

Nice history revision though Hammer.  The Celts came running to PRL to save them.  Ahhhh...so sweet.

Wait, what? I'm confused here. Your post is entirely speculative and based on essentially sweet F.A. His is rooted in facts and makes small, reasonable assumptions from them. Yet he is guilty of 'history revision'?

Still, I suppose you can be forgiven for being desperate for a bit of a win. I might be too if my side had backed down and given the other side almost everything they had asked for. Especially if the majority of people on my side had been adamant from the start that we would never give in to those big bad bullies at the PRL. So enjoy your win while the rest of us who aren't carrying chips on our shoulders are just happy that the tournament is going ahead.

Now, where's that fishing emoticon when you need it?  

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Em..................... some creative rethinking there, Hammer.  It was actually the PRL (all on it's lonesome.......oh sorry, they had the RFU in their pocket, but the RFU were acting honest broker of course...whistle, whistle and all that) .... but it was actually the PRL who kept saying No to everything and that they were going on their own.  They had enough loadsa money from their new domestic BT deal to survive on their own, concentrating on their own domestic league and fecking off the rest of the European turncoats, double agents, deceivers, rascals and pimps.
But the real juice was of course being spouted by their agent, the RFU, who kept pleading that they were only interested in everybody being 'fwiends' and that things could still get sorted.  Or to put it another way "Please lets invent something to let the English clubs back in!!  We need Europe too!!!!"

Nice history revision though Hammer.  The Celts came running to PRL to save them.  Ahhhh...so sweet.

Wait, what? I'm confused here. Your post is entirely speculative and based on essentially sweet F.A. His is rooted in facts and makes small, reasonable assumptions from them. Yet he is guilty of 'history revision'?

Still, I suppose you can be forgiven for being desperate for a bit of a win. I might be too if my side had backed down and given the other side almost everything they had asked for. Especially if the majority of people on my side had been adamant from the start that we would never give in to those big bad bullies at the PRL. So enjoy your win while the rest of us who aren't carrying chips on our shoulders are just happy that the tournament is going ahead.

Now, where's that fishing emoticon when you need it?  

Thanks for that, Fuzzy.  I'll deal with the highlighted bits one at a time.

"I'm confused here".  Yes.  Yes, you are confused.
"Your post is entirely speculative".  History isn't speculative.  The story is in print.  What the PRL said, what English club Heads said, what the RFU didn't say...until they started talking right at the end.... It's all there.  But I'll forgive you.  You're confused.
"Still, I suppose you can be forgiven for being desperate for a bit of a win"  I'm from Leinster.  My team are familiar with winning
"...if my side had backed down"  Correct, my side Did back down.  Absolutely correct.  Thus the continuing discussions.  Delighted you're part of them...the more the merrier.
"the rest of us who aren't carrying chips on our shoulders are just happy that the tournament is going ahead."  The 'rest of you' were certainly carrying hefty chip on your shoulders before the 'agreement'  McCaff, the PRL, the TV chimneys, the 'Unfairness' of the HC, the ability of Irish sides to 'rest their best players', the excuses, the excsues, the excuses.....  Delighted the chip has finally lifted.......................... for a while...................... until the results start coming in from the new competition..................... and then we'll see how long before a new chip and a new host of excuses for changing the rules again crop up.  It'll be them French boys then, won't it.  
"Them French lads can hire any player they like!"  
"Them French lads have an unfair advantage!"  
"Them French lads have hardly a salary cap worth talking about!!!!"  
"The rules need relaxing!!!!"  
"We need to do away with salary caps!!!!!"

The Future.  A whole new bag of chips.

Well said Fly

A brief history of European shenanigans:

1995 - A new world of Pro Rugby sees the "Eropean Club Competition" created. RFU in best Canute impression tries to hold back the tide of professionalism and refuses English clubs permission to enter.

1996 - RFU belatedly grants permission to clubs. They go cap in hand to the organisers begging admittance. Entry is granted but England is only given subordinate membership with reduced share of the pot and not vote.

1997 - English clubs ask for terms to be reviewed. Application denied.

1998 - English clubs ask for terms to be reviewed. Application denied. English clubs leave the tournament.

1999- English clubs re-admitted to the competition with a vote and increased money share.

2006 - English clubs ask for a review of competition structure. Promised changes at "later date"

Fast forward to 2012 and nothing has changed and all requests for dialogue are refused. PRL spout a load of guff about fairness. It is Love sacks they want more money and do not see why they should be funding the other unions. The threaten to leave - no-one believes them. There are still no discussions.

2013/14 they leave, the others panic and capitulate finally conseding to all demands at the 11th hour.

INB4 (I learnt this one recently)

A brief history of European shenanigans:

1995 - A new world of Pro Rugby sees the "Eropean Club Competition" created. Due to arrogance and greed the English refuse to take part with 'lesser' teams.

1996 - the English club realise that there is money to be made in such a competition and demand to made a part. Due to the Unions positivity and good will they allow the English to join.

1997 - English clubs demand more, the unions think about it.

1998 - English clubs demand more. The unions are still concerned with the ramifications so the English stomp off in a tiz

1999- English clubs are allowed back in and given more in a hope it will sate their greed

2006 - The French raise issues relating to season structure due to the WC. The English clubs jump on board as they see a chance to cause trouble (and can see the start of the Irish climb to power...and they quake on their boots)

Fast forward to 2012 and nothing has changed although the Irish have started to realise their destiny. PRL spout a load of guff about fairness. It is Love sacks they want more money to curb Irish competitiveness. They threaten to run off again - no-one cares.

2013/14 they leave, the others hold resolute, holding off the English power grab. All was well until the Scots and Welsh fell to greed leaving the Irish attempting to hold up rugby integrity on their own. Realising that their efforts to protect the other lesser Celtic unions have been in vain they agree to grace the new competition with their presence.

The PRL are unable to organise the competition in the generous time provided, causing many laughs in the home of true rugby[/quote]

I think the main 2 reasons Leinster have been so successful over the last 6 years is primarily outlined below:-

1. Top quality coaching & management - their game plan has been streets ahead of most teams. Some of their Head Coaches have been a spectacular success.

2. A lot of Irelands current talent pool play at Leinster. On form there are not actually that many candidates from other provinces who are ahead of them in terms of actual players. I'd go as far to say the added international experience has helped over lesser prepared sides. Not to mention that Leinster's second backup 15 is filled with some of Ireland's most promising talent.

I'm not stating that Munster & Ulster don't have international calibre players and it's worth pointing out Munsters previous HC performances similar to Leinster also had a lot of current Ireland internationals within it. That cant be a coincidence.

When the regions ask why they cant be as successful it boils down to one thing. When they Ospreys did have the biggest welsh presence in the Welsh International setup they were being competitive in Europe and the league. Granted they didn't win the HC but it just goes to show that a bigger international presence for teams helps them no end in terms of being competitive in Europe.

France probably are the only ones who this does not apply to because they actually can sign non French international players to fill the quality gap.

The main reason I predict we will not see a English HC winner for the next 10 years (not only because of French dominance) is primarily because they cannot get the top draft foreign internationals and the individual squads are to thinly spread between 4/5 league teams. Its the same reason the Welsh wont win it.

So my prediction for next 10 years of HC rugby is no Welsh, Italian or English side will win the HC.

I actually think the Scottish may have a chance in a few years as Glasgow are adopting a similar approach to Leinster and have a massively strong squad going to into next year. If they can keep a quality 30 man squad together success will follow eventually but retention is always difficult with the threat of the French.

I think the English might win one or two, the Irish probably the same amount and the French most of them. There are other variables; French preference for the Brennus, quality of coaching, and the sheer unpredictability of Cup rugby.

I don't see England producing any teams that are truly dominant in the way Toulon are now and Leinster were before that but definitely think there is the potential to win a few- same for Ireland. Any English wins will come out of the left field to some extent but foolish to write them off. After all, they produced a finalist this year and you have to question just how much more foreign talent Toulon can bring in. Will they get any better than what they are now?

Yeah but to be perfectly honest I would argue that Saracens wouldn't have beat Ulster with 15 men so the fact they had a team in the finals was a bit misleading.

Granted anything can happen but I'm sticking with my prediction. Another thing worth noting about the English participation going into the next season is that the only teams who even have a remote chance of winning are Northampton, Leicester & Saracens. I would argue that a lot of the Saracens squad right now are at their peak if they don't win in the next season or two, they probably will never win the HC.

Sure there is a boxers chance for a English side to win the HC - on that basis though you couldn't discount a Welsh or Italian side winning it. I know my statement is rather bold and only time will tell but I suspect in 10 years (unless something has changed with funding in the current game) I may turn out to be correct. Granted under current funding structures the reality is that probably 8 out of the next 10 will head to France. So the reality is even the Irish will now be a longer shot than previous.

In fairness we have seen early English HC domination followed by a sustained success by Irish rugby so by that logic its probably the turn of the French.

The only major plus point regarding the French is that they are getting in their own way a bit to total domination in Europe. They just play to many games and given the drastic nature of their 2 place relegation league, it will always hold back some teams of their true potential in Europe. So that at least should give Pro 12 & Aviva sides a glimmer of hope.

The French teams will never dominate until they sort out their away form. Toulon lost 9 away games in their league last season (winning 16) to top the league. Take any of the French teams away from home and they will lose against decent opposition. All the Irish teams have cracked that away form in France (A lot of that would have to do with the Pro12 being an international comp., so would rarely have away support at away games).

Toulon & Clermont have been lucky in their draws that they have ended up with home QFs & semis (getting a home semi is pure luck).

The way to look at it is that the Toulon's & Clermont are not going to get any better - you can only have 23 in a match day squad. Most top players want to play rugby - you would have to question their motivation going to a club where there isn't a chance of them getting more than a couple of games a season anyway.

We say that but still a lot of French sides qualified for the knock out stages in the HC last year. Yeah granted the pulls are harder this year so away form will need to be better from French sides.

That sides the French sides are notoriously capable from putting big scores on at home and we all know how big a difference bonus points make in the competition.

You're argument regarding squad strength is true in some respect Sin, but given every side suffers injuries throughout campaigns they suffer less in terms of key personal losses. Its fair to say in order for most non French sides to have a genuine chance they have to be lucky in terms of key players being fit.

For me that is a primary issue. All the other sides have key players who if they don't feature will seriously hamper their campaigns. Toulouse & Toulon by contrast can clearly cope with losing personal so for me they are obvious contenders for success at the group stages.

Don't get me wrong though Racing & Clermont will still be heavily dependant of their starting 15's being available in order to be successful. They will be in the same boat as the rest of the teams.

In fairness it's only Toulon that are dominant,Clermont look to be in relatived decline while Toulouse are a shadow of their former great selves,Montpellier flatter to decieve but may come good while Racing might be a threat in a year or two if they continue to develop.

In short the current French dominance is the same as the Irish dominance when Leinster were at the top,one team is ahead of the rest but after that there really isn't much between the top teams in Europe.

Welshmushroom wrote:Yeah but to be perfectly honest I would argue that Saracens wouldn't have beat Ulster with 15 men so the fact they had a team in the finals was a bit misleading.

Yeah, I would too but thats my point. These things happen in Cup Rugby. They are the intangible factors that give me caution.

Losing a player like Ulster did in the opening minutes of a knockout game does curious things to both teams' mentalities.  Ulster were steeled and played with a superb intensity and team spirit, almost kicking themselves to victory.  Saracens assumed it was match won after the red card and played within themselves, stunned by Ulster's response and the home support, only managing 3 tries against the 14 players.

XV against XV I had Ulster to win the match, but I was expecting a close game and certainly wouldn't have been surprised to see Saracens take it. Had Saracens had home advantage I would have thought the same the other way.  Given the manner in which they demolished Clermont in the SF (with London home advantage, another of the chance aspects that Notch alludes to and can dictate procession) I think it's a stretch to suggest their appearance in the final was misleading in terms of their ability and they wouldn't arrive there any other year.


I think my country's predicted future dominance in the competition by many is being overstated and in combination with the vagaries of the game we'll see a much closer number of titles between French, Irish and English clubs a decade from now.  As a few French sides have proven, big spending doesn't automatically translate into success, it's not easy to blend those characters and abilities into a unified and functioning squad.  Toulon appear to have done that well under Laporte, but with the next couple of years likely to see him move on and a number of the ageing squad retire, I think they'll have a tricky rebuild that will see them drop down the pecking order as they try to find a similarly successful recipe.

yappysnap wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Pool 2

Leinster
Castres
Harlequins
Wasps

Only just seen this but for f*cks sake. After last seasons getting Clermont and the two seasons before that getting Toulouse you'd think Quins may get a slightly easier pool for once.

Gonna be a tough year. Glad we signed all those extra forwards now... Oh wait.  

It's fine. You have to beat the best to be the best, and Castres travel a well as most French teams and thus also fresh meat

Heineken are to sponsor new competition at 4 million a year.

The Rugby Paper reports that Heineken, long-term title sponsors of the previous European rugby competition, will pay around £4m-a-year to be associated with the ERCC. Heineken is the first major brand to commit to the new tournament, which is being organised by club-driven promoters European Professional Club Rugby.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/european-rugby-champions-cup-2014-15/rugby/story/234317.html#1WzyqgA0fsB9UOcX.99

Is the next step to increase the amount of teams from 20-24 in the coming years?

Indeed leinster - 2 more english and two more french I bet.

the treachery of the PRL and RRW will be long remembered. Oh I wish the other unions had a bit more backbone.

Infamy infamy they've all got it in for me

ERCC will be known as the Heineken Cup then

That should keep the people who spat their dummies out happy then.

Well done to everyone involved who got a better deal for all teams taking part and raising the profile of the game (some people would still be happy for it to remain a amateur sport I sense), as I feel you guys have been bad mouthed and treated with contempt all the way through this saga when in truth you should be applauded for saving club rugby in the NH.

Well done Chaps.

So last year the amount of central money to divvy up was £37M. Currently there is £28M from the British TV rights, and £4M from Heineken for sponsorship (not naming rights so it'll be the ERCC). Not sure how much the world wide rights went for as it wasn't stated.

But there is more than £32M, not including French rights or additional sponsorship. Not too bad considering the cluster-muck that occured due the last minute change of heart.

I think that 28m is over 4 years, not per annum. Likewise for the French rights as the tender request on their website was worded that it was over 4 years and the total reserve was 27m.

14m is mentioned for the world rights (not sure whether that is per annum or for 4 years).

Worth noting that the company employed to sell the rights IMG, also works for IRB, IRFU, SRU, FFR, FIR & Celtic League. The only Unions/Leagues they don't sell the rights for are the RFU, PRL & LNR    

Looks like the Unions are trying to mop up the PRL/LNR mess for them with their media agents & ERC back running the show.

Craig & Co. have been remarkable silent for them.

I think pending legal action over the Top 14 media rights is holding up the sale of the French rights. Bid for the French rights were meant to be made on 18th June. It mustn't have gone too well for them.

Unless something is done to limit the spending on players on a europe wide basis the competition will end up with the French getting stronger while the rest drop away slowly but surely. There is no level playing field at the moment and just as is the way in society in general, those who have the money are the ones who crave and demand it even more. The playing field will be tilted very much in favour of those who can create a squad using their wealth as opposed to home grown talent. The French international team will continue to suffer but I'm not sure how many Toulon fans care about Les Blues.

Sin é wrote:I think that 28m is over 4 years, not per annum. Likewise for the French rights as the tender request on their website was worded that it was over 4 years and the total reserve was 27m.

14m is mentioned for the world rights (not sure whether that is per annum or for 4 years).

Worth noting that the company employed to sell the rights IMG, also works for IRB, IRFU, SRU, FFR, FIR & Celtic League. The only Unions/Leagues they don't sell the rights for are the RFU, PRL & LNR    

Looks like the Unions are trying to mop up the PRL/LNR mess for them with their media agents & ERC back running the show.

Craig & Co. have been remarkable silent for them.

I think pending legal action over the Top 14 media rights is holding up the sale of the French rights. Bid for the French rights were meant to be made on 18th June. It mustn't have gone too well for them.

 Not sure. Might be. Assuming Sky and BT pay the same (they have similar rights), that would be £14M each. So for three years (the original BT deal for Europe was 3 years) would be £42M, leaving £110M for 4 years of the premiership. BT have gone from all the English home games to the first pick for 3 of their games, plus some more so I would expect the money to be comparable.  If it was £28M for 4 years that would be £3.5M from BT per year.  Which would make the premiership amount around £140M, which would be nonsense.  So either BT have massively dropped the amount they're putting in (for similar rights) or it's per year...or Sky are putting in peanuts.

EDIT: the 'proof' will be at the end of the season. The PRL fellas will be crowing from the rooftops if they made more money. If they're quiet I imagine it didn't go as well as they hoped.

I seem to remember the BT deal being heavily weighted towards the PRL anyway. As well as that, that deal is for 4 years (not 3) which would be 140/4=35m per year for about 125 matches - peanuts in comparison to the French deal.

The joint Sky and ESPN deal for the same number of matches was £18M per year. If the really are getting £17M more per year then they didn't need the £9M they got from Europe. Which I seem to remember was argued against back in the day. So even if only £20M was made from the ERCC and therefore the Pro12 get all of it they would still be massively better off.

HoT - where did you get this figure: ''So last year the amount of central money to divvy up was £37M.''?

The turnover of ERC for 2012 was £52m (according to their accounts). Where is the 15m+ gone?