Cotto and Catchweights

Cottos last fight at welter was was the catchweight vs Manny. I think it was 144lb? After the fight he immediately moved up to light middle. The jump in weight after the fight seems to indicate he was struggling to make welter, never mind the agreed catchweight. This must have killed Cotto. Further, he just fought at the middle catchweight against martinez, and carried huge power and energy, this further suggests he was really struggling to make welter. I, personally, dont use the Manny defeat as a stick to beat Cotto with, he was a zombie. Does Cottos brilliant performance (despite the injured oponent) and comfort at the higher weight, albeit catchweight) take anything away from Mannys victory by confirming Cotto was drained?

Cotto wasn't drained against Manny is the simple answer.

Why? Any supporting circumstantial evidence?

His previous performances, his size and the way he looked at the weigh in, nothing suggests he was weight drained, just a convenient excuse for being beaten up against a superior boxer. Too many jumping on his performance yesterday, which was decent but to be expected when you're fighting a cripple who can barely move.

Most fighters don't become better fighters when they jump 4 weight divisions.......unless they are hitting the milkshakes.

Catchweight was 146lbs. He came in at 145, having come at 146 for his previous fight. Hard sell, that argument.

3fingers wrote:Cottos last fight at welter was was the catchweight vs Manny. I think it was 144lb? After the fight he immediately moved up to light middle. The jump in weight after the fight seems to indicate he was struggling to make welter, never mind the agreed catchweight. This must have killed Cotto. Further, he just fought at the middle catchweight against martinez, and carried huge power and energy, this further suggests he was really struggling to make welter. I, personally, dont use the Manny defeat as a stick to beat Cotto with, he was a zombie. Does Cottos brilliant performance (despite the injured oponent) and comfort at the higher weight, albeit catchweight) take anything away from Mannys victory by confirming Cotto was drained?

See, lines like "Cotto was a zombie" (against Manny) really do my head in. Nowt more than sensationalism and / or a symptom of being a bit too in love with Mayweather and what he says.

For me, Cotto hit his peak at Welter (who knows, maybe he'll go on to be even more successful and impressive at Middle, but that's one for the future). I'll take the Cotto of the Quintana, Judah and Mosley fights over the one we saw in any fight at 154. Incidentally, if it was purely the weight which was costing him at 147, why the flat showing and lop-sided defeat against Trout?

Cotto weighed in at 146 for his previous two fights before facing Pacquiao. He was a converted Light-Welter, albeit not a small one, to begin with in any case. He looked fine at the weigh in, clearly rehydrated well enough over night and looked much bigger in the ring than Pacquiao did.

You seem to be forgetting one pretty crucial thing here - Pacquiao's a better fighter than Cotto. I thought Cotto won the first round and was looking very well placed in the third and fourth rounds as well before suffering the knockdowns - knockdowns which were all to do with Pacquiao's brilliance on the night and nothing to do with Cotto's weight. From potentially being 3-1 up he was 1-3 down, with a couple of 10-8 rounds thrown in for good measure and after that point he visibly went in to defensive mode and Pacquiao just had a field day with him. But again, nothing in the above suggests problems with weight. He was just in there with a guy who was too fast, hitting too hard and, despite it being largely forgotten now, boxing too well on a technical point of view for him on the night.

Cotto was decked, rocked and jolted plenty of times against Torres and went in to ultra-defensive mode against Mosley as well (nearly blowing the fight on my card, in fact), so it's not as if these things happening against Pacquiao are totally out of the blue and require some sinister explanation. He just came up against an all-time great (as I said, a level above Cotto at the best of times) who was having maybe the best night of his career.

No shame in it for Cotto, but no basis to ignore it when we evaluate him either. Oh, and by 2010, if it had been me looking after Cotto's career at the time I'd have been pretty keen on a move up to Light-Middle, too. Two painful, damaging defeats to Margarito and Pacquiao but with a chance to rebuild while at the same time contesting world titles against relatively safe bets such as Foreman and Mayorga? Yes please.

Raf has it the way I remember it too. Catchweight was 146lb. I think cotto makes 154lb better than 147, but that's just stating the obvious. I don't think he kills himself to make welter when he weighs 155 when trying to make 159.
Now he was killing himself to make 140. Back in those days he was destructive but also had question marks around his chin, his chinny issues disappeared moving to 147. Watching the margarito 1 beat down I remember thinking "bet he wishes he was chinny".

Glad everything is cleared up.

Cotto made welter easy and moved up to light middle for an easy title. Got it. Maybe he wasnt weight drained then, but he certainly looked lathargic. He'd probably overtrained and didnt rest sufficiently between fights....He'd already fought twice that year before facing manny.

Just to clear things up, the catchweight was 145lb.

It was at 145lbs the catch weight exact same as Floyd vs canelo just the weight below, brilliant performance from manny and the catch weight made little to no difference the only difference would've been 11 months prior he got plastered gloves wrapped round his head and thT would've done damage physically and mentally! Is probably the best WW displays I've seen for a while though

3fingers wrote:Cotto made welter easy and moved up to light middle for an easy title. Got it. Maybe he wasnt weight drained then, but he certainly looked lathargic. He'd probably overtrained and didnt rest sufficiently between fights....He'd already fought twice that year before facing manny.

Poor Miguel fighting three times in a year, he lost simply because Pacquiao was better, there are no extenuating circumstamces and you seem to want to make any excuse possible.

The irony is that he's using a fight in which Cotto beat up an old Martinez - two knee surgeries later, requesting to wear a brace, who Roach knew did not spar much for this fight (wonder why) - at a freaking catchweight to prove how mighty Cotto really is... it beggars belief.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

3fingers wrote:Cotto made welter easy and moved up to light middle for an easy title. Got it. Maybe he wasnt weight drained then, but he certainly looked lathargic. He'd probably overtrained and didnt rest sufficiently between fights....He'd already fought twice that year before facing manny.

Poor Miguel fighting three times in a year, he lost simply because Pacquiao was better, there are no extenuating circumstamces and you seem to want to make any excuse possible.

Cotto lost a pound more than normal for the manny fight. He'd also had 3 training camps that year. This probably equals about 36 weeks of intense training prior to facing manny in week 40 something of the year. He will have been extremely fatigued. 
Manny chose a relatively slow plodder, who was tired, at a catch weight. He should fight Cotto at 152 catchweight,..... no he wouldn't that, he'd be mauled.

I'm starting to think you genuinely are Emore now because that is one of the most one eyed incorrect posts i've read on here. No professional boxer should struggle to fight four or five times a year, it doesn't happen for monetary reasons but physically it's easy especially when one of those fights was a five rounder against Michael Jennings. Pacquiao beats Cotto at any weight because he's too quick and too good.

3fingers wrote:Cotto lost a pound more than normal for the manny fight. He'd also had 3 training camps that year. This probably equals about 36 weeks of intense training prior to facing manny in week 40 something of the year. He will have been extremely fatigued. 
Manny chose a relatively slow plodder, who was tired, at a catch weight. He should fight Cotto at 152 catchweight,..... no he wouldn't that, he'd be mauled.

And no doubt if he won you could just discount it and tell us all that it means nothing and doesn't count again, as a 152 catchweight requires Cotto to weigh in a bit less than he did for his previous fight....And as you've shown above, that just isn't on.

Wish I could find a thread on the old Beeb 606 site from early-mid 2008 (about a year and a half before Pacquiao hammered Cotto) which talked about what would happen if Manny ever went up to Welter to face Cotto. I can promise you that for most people's predictions, suggesting that Manny would be 'mauled' there as well would be putting it lightly.

If Rowley will let me borrow one of his ol' sayings - if only there had been some way that Cotto could have not signed to fight Pacquiao in such horrible and unfair circumstances.....

I se yous cant handle the truth. Thats ok. But I will repeat it one mire time, manny would not beat cotto at light middleweight. I was tring to give manny a chance by setting a catchweight of 152, nothing more. They should rematch at the full 154, nly one winner... The mighty Cotto, destroyer of The Amazing Martinez (beater of...erm....wiliams and erm who else? Oh yeah chavez)

Cool story, bro.   

I see Emore's cretinous side is starting to seep out then, he did manage to hold it off for 500 posts bless him.

Ive been a little bored tonight so I thought I'd try my hand at wum... I think V2 is in need of one now there is no gordy, waingro, Az etc. There is nothing better than ripping you're hair out at a quality wum. I don't think I'm cut out for it so I'll pass the batten over..

I'm not emore either you pathetic pedant.

Pacquiao was a monster when he faced Cotto -- around the time he was fully on board with Ariza who -- according to Roach -- provided mysterious supplements, the contents of which they were unaware of.

Pacquiao beat the living daylights out of De la Hoya, nearly decapitated Hatton and threw Cotto around like a rag doll in a destructive 12-month period.

I think a rematch against Pacquiao in his current, less potent form would be a lot closer.