England vs Crusaders

So what team do we want or expect to see in this one then?

I'd like to see:

1. Mullan
2. Ward
3. Brookes
4. Slater (c)
5. Attwood
6. Johnson
7. Kvesic
8. Haskell
9. Dickson
10. Cipriani
11. Pennell
12. Eastmond
13. Trinder
14. Forden
15. Goode

Bench: Catt, Gray, Thomas, Patterson, Vunipola, Youngs, Myler , Burrell.

Not much umph in the centres but the Crusaders won't be able to offer th any space as if they get in behind then it's try time. Give a few players a chance to stake a claim. Be interesting to see how Slater and Eastmond perform as they have a lot to potentially gain given the performance of their positional colleagues today.

Can't remember the squad exactly so might have to change it of I've missed any obvious omissions.

I'd go with:

Waller
Ward
Sinkler
Attwood,
Patterson (to run the line-out)
Haskell
Kvesic
Johnson
Dickson
Cipriani
May
Eastmond
Barritt (I don't like him at OC, but we need some physical presence)
Pennell
Goode

Gray, Catt, Thomas, Slater, Morgan, Wigglesworth, Myler, Foden/Watson

I don't expect anyone who will be involved next Saturday to be involved in the matchday 23, with the exception of Morgan.

Manu on the wing?

Most definitely Scratchy, and make it the right wing too.

Slater and Attwood can both call a line out. Why drop one for the inclusion of a Kiwi who was only called up as cover because he was visiting relatives?

Did we fly Sinckler put in the end? I thought he remained home to get a pre season. I'd include Waller over Catt though. Maybe rest Eastmond ahead of the third test and use a Barritt/Trinder combo if they're both over there.

Crusaders team to play England:

http://crusaders.co.nz/news/667-crusaders-team-to-play-england

Crusaders team to play England:1Tim Perry2Corey Flynn3Nepo Laulala4Jimmy Tupou5Joel Everson6Jordan Taufua7George Whitelock (c)8Luke Whitelock9Willi Heinz10Tyler Bleyendaal11Nafi Tuitavake12Kieron Fonotia13Reynold Lee-Lo14Johnny McNicholl15Tom Taylor

No Colin Slade and no Crotty in the backs. Shame They weren't released for this game. Would have added some threat. Still a competitive team that should provide a decent challenge. One question where's Nodolo the massive wing?

That's a surprisingly good team there.

I wish more AP clubs would play the touring SH sides during the Autumn, would be a memorable game.

As to the England team, here's my pick:

Waller
Ward
Sinkler
Attwood
Slater
Haskell (c)
Kvesic
Vunipola (only playing the first half)
Dickson
Cipriani
May
Eastmond
Trinder
Foden
Goode

Gray, Catt, Thomas, Patterson, Johnson, Wigglesworth, Myler, Pennell



Love that backrow, classic 6,7,8 very different to what Lancaster usually goes for and they could give him a lot to think about going forward. Likewise the locks are big change from the norm, two big guys with a good skillset but not quite the dynamism of Lawes/Launchberry, they could both be invaluable though.

Not a big backline but the forwards should make up for that , lots of pace and some experience in there and Hask as captain as one of the most experienced and best on the team sheet. Lots of guys who'll hope they can do enough to get in the 23 for Sat as well.

Yappy, I note you have Eastmond starting on Tuesday and Saturday. Do you think that's likely? Or do you think he'll be subbed early?

I'm hoping he'll start on Tues, perform well and get subbed early then play Sat. Playing outside Cips should be similar to playing outside Burns for him.

Due to the goings on at Bath he's not played much at all so injury permitting he should be more then capable of both.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Crusaders team to play England:1Tim Perry2Corey Flynn3Nepo Laulala4Jimmy Tupou5Joel Everson6Jordan Taufua7George Whitelock (c)8Luke Whitelock9Willi Heinz10Tyler Bleyendaal11Nafi Tuitavake12Kieron Fonotia13Reynold Lee-Lo14Johnny McNicholl15Tom Taylor

No Colin Slade and no Crotty in the backs. Shame They weren't released for this game. Would have added some threat. Still a competitive team that should provide a decent challenge. Orne question where's Nodolo the massive wing?

Nadolo is playing for Fiji in PNC - scored 35 points in the last two games, having unexpectedly taken over kicking duties. He certainly would have tested the midfield defence.

Not sure about these games. 6 months out it looks exciting but on the week its all about who's not there. Saders would never field this side in a sxv match. Could be fun though.

Eastmond hasn't played much at Bath because they think Devoto is a better option at 12, which I think is quite interesting.

SL and his coaches like mobile second rows, and quite rightly place a lot of importance on the line-out. I'm not saying they won't pair Attwood and Slater, but it would be slightly out of character.

But an interesting chance to look at a different style of backrow and lock combination Dave? Who's to say we're not missing a trick at the moment with the style we've got.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Crusaders team to play England:1Tim Perry2Corey Flynn3Nepo Laulala4Jimmy Tupou5Joel Everson6Jordan Taufua7George Whitelock (c)8Luke Whitelock9Willi Heinz10Tyler Bleyendaal11Nafi Tuitavake12Kieron Fonotia13Reynold Lee-Lo14Johnny McNicholl15Tom Taylor

No Colin Slade and no Crotty in the backs. Shame They weren't released for this game. Would have added some threat. Still a competitive team that should provide a decent challenge. Orne question where's Nodolo the massive wing?

Nadolo is playing for Fiji in PNC - scored 35 points in the last two games, having unexpectedly taken over kicking duties. He certainly would have tested the midfield defence.

Is he still on the wing?

yappysnap wrote:But an interesting chance to look at a different style of backrow and lock combination Dave? Who's to say we're not missing a trick at the moment with the style we've got.

Oh I don't mind us having a look at Slater and Attwood together. But I do understand why SL favours mobile locks, as against the best sides you need to be able to keep hitting rucks for the full 80 minutes and line-out is in my view more important than scrum. But as I say, if they play together I won't be upset (and they are both actually English too).

I think Attwood does the lineout for Bath doesn't he? And Slater for Tigers? Obviously they may not be as good as Parling but I think they'd still be pretty good at it.

Only downside is that the backrow doesn't offer a third option.

Goode
Watson
Trinder
Barrit
Foden
Cips
Dickson
Waller
Gray
Thomas
Slater
Attwood
Johnson
Haskell
Kvesic
Subs
Catt
Ward
Sinkler
Paterson
Morgan
Wiggles worth
Myler
Pennell

Was tempted to play Burrell as punishment for a poor display
This side gives every player an oppurtunity
Toss up between foden and may
I want foden on bench for 3rd test
People have forgotten what a good player he is when fully fit

DaveM wrote:Eastmond hasn't played much at Bath because they think Devoto is a better option at 12, which I think is quite interesting.

Eastmond made more starts (particularly at 12) and played more minutes of rugby for Bath this season. Devoto wasn't preferred until the last 3 matches of the season, 2 of which were against Saints, and where they stated at the time was due to them wanting more options for their kicking game and more physicality against the likes of Burrell. However these last 3 matches also just happened to come after their Amlin SF win against Wasps where with Bath less than 7 ahead Eastmond was carded in the last 10 minutes for a tip tackle and then swore at the ref.

That's true, but given how important those last 3 games were there's no way Bath went with Devoto for any reason other than they thought he was the better option.

In due course I think Devoto will play 12 for England, as I think he has the skillset SL is looking for there. Eastmond played well enough in the first test to warrant another chance at some point, but I think people are placing a lot of weight on a single break (one which Twelvetrees also managed but gets less credit for).

Perhaps more is being made of the fact he didn't throw a string of horrible passes to the floor, behind the player or to the opposition to then score a try from? Oh and manage to boot the ball 60m's off the end of the pitch at a key time.

Just checked and Eastmond missed 1 tackle and no turnovers, Twelvetreees missed 3 and 3 turnovers. That's a far sloppier performance from a guy with 14 England caps compared to Eastmonds 2.

I had my doubts about Eastmond prior to the first test. Playing against a 2nd string Argentina is one thing, NZ and Nonu quite another. One of the key things that sold me on him after the first test was that of the players I've seen paired with Tuilagi (who surely will now hold on to the 13 shirt) he seems to have the most natural connection and understanding. I also really liked the pace he played 12 at, not much too big and fancy, but just some really nice simple crisp direct passing and some forward urgency.

formerly known as Sam wrote:One question where's Nodolo the massive wing?

It's still the international window isn't it? Last I heard about him he was wearing the 12 jersey for Fiji and blasting through the Italian midfield for fun! Got himself a try and was taking the place kicks too. Pretty massive result for Fiji in that one.

yappysnap wrote:Perhaps more is being made of the fact he didn't throw a string of horrible passes to the floor, behind the player or to the opposition to then score a try from? Oh and manage to boot the ball 60m's off the end of the pitch at a key time.

Just checked and Eastmond missed 1 tackle and no turnovers, Twelvetreees missed 3 and 3 turnovers. That's a far sloppier performance from a guy with 14 England caps compared to Eastmonds 2.

How many passes did they both throw (genuine question)? Twelvetrees obviously set up a try, which should earn him some credit. He was also playing against an AB side who had raised their game significantly and alongside an OC who appeared to be struggling defensively.

It's true Twelvetrees kicked badly on one occasion, but let's remember he hadn't played competitive rugby for what, 5 weeks, and had stepped in to FH. Who would have done it if 36 wasn't in the side? The kick was the right option, just like the off-load was, but the execution was poor. It seems very likely that rustiness played a part in this, and that he'll play better if selected this weekend.

Eastmond did play well, but personally I'd still be surprised if he makes it as an international 12. If he doesn't start on Saturday I suspect we might not see him feature for a while.

Injury update
CAre: tweaked shoulder again
Burrell: ankle tweak
Twelvetrees: ankle tweak
Farrell: knee

Last test very likley to be Youngs, Burns, Yarde, Eastmond, Manu Ashton, Brown meaning sick of wendy is probably pretty close with his mid week selection

1.Waller
2.Ward
3.Sinckler
4.Slater
5.Attwood
6.Johnson
7.Haskell
8.Kvesic

9.Dickson
10.Cipriani

11.Watson
12.Barritt
13.Trinder
14.May
15.Pennell

16.Gray 17.Mullan 18.Thomas 19.Patterson 20.Vunipola 21.Wigglesworth 22.Myler 23.Goode

...

Those who describe Slater as a grunt option and as not athletic should remember he started as a blindside flanker who Tigers converted to lock. He played 6 pretty well when we needed him to this season. He's a big bloke with a back row mentality in the loose and a Leicester lock mentality in the tight. He should work for England we just need to see if he can step up.

A good chance for some to nudge themselves onto the bench for the third test, particularly Waller, Attwood and Watson I would have thought.

My Last match before I fly home. Official team:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/june/news-articles/160614_eng_team_crusaders


England Team to face Crusaders
15 Alex Goode (Saracens)
14 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
13 Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
12 Brad Barritt (Saracens)
11 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
10 Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
9 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
1 Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
2 Joe Gray (Harlequins)
3 Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4 Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, capt)
5 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
6 James Haskell (London Wasps)
7 Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
8 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements
16 David Ward (Harlequins)
17 Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
19 Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks)
20 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
21 Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
22 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
23 Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

"This is a really important match for us in terms of the development of our squad," England head coach Stuart Lancaster said."We wanted this game to test ourselves against a top Super 15 side and, with a large squad out here, we are hoping to create opportunities for everyone to lay down a marker on this tour."Ed is a natural leader who has captained Leicester well, and I'm sure he will do the same with this England side."We are treating this as an additional Test, and I know the Crusaders will be highly motivated to put in a good performance on the back of their Super 15 form."Slater is understandably delighted to have been handed the reins.No illusions"This is a big opportunity and Stuart has spoken about lifting the spirit," said Slater."We're under no illusions about what's happened - we've lost the last two games and this is a chance for us to lift the spirit in the camp."We've been close in the last two Test games and guys are really eager to make their mark in this game."Our focus first and foremost is to play well as a team, but we definitely need to get that win."England forwards coach Graham Rowntree added: "We have a competitive squad and a big squad and that's the reason we've brought so many guys - to have a look at them in training and to play in this game."People like Ed have been excellent to work with - they've been patient and this is their big stage."We haven't yet finalised things for the final Test, so there is a lot to play for."

4 Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, capt)
5 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
6 James Haskell (London Wasps)

Now thats a nice physical edge to the pack!

So it looks like Eastmond will be in the matchday 23 for Saturday.

Im glad about that...he looked promising in the first test.

We're getting low on numbers now at though.

I have now ruled Twelvetrees out of the running (he's just not good enough)...so that leaves us with Eastmond and Burrell.

So will we see Eastmond on the bench? Or Easmond/Tuilagi or Eastmond/Burrell.

Decisions decisions...

Bit harsh to rule Twelvetrees out entirely, he's got all the parts to make a very good 12, he just needs a solid season for Gloucester on the front foot to display them.

Just like Cipriani, Ashton, Nowell, Sharples, Attwood. He should be sent away and told to focus on the basics of his position get them nailed and he's right in there with a shout.

Burrell had a worse game than Twelvetrees and didn't have the excuse of lack of game time. Depending on fitness I could imagine Twelvetrees and Tuilagi in the centres, Ashton on the wing, and Eastmond on the bench.

But frankly who knows.

I could go along with that Yappy...give him some time with Gloucester to work on things.

DaveM wrote:Burrell had a worse game than Twelvetrees and didn't have the excuse of lack of game time. Depending on fitness I could imagine Twelvetrees and Tuilagi in the centres, Ashton on the wing, and Eastmond on the bench.

But frankly who knows.

 But TBF he has been playing out of his usual club position which is 12.

 Against the 6N they don't have the backs to expose the minor differences but the like of SA, NZ, Aus do.

 Twelvetrees has had plenty of chances and against the big 3 he has come short each time, cant think of one game against big opponents that he has really shone, and tbh it is the same at club he is to inconsistent. He needs to work on composure and maybe running more dynamically he can sometimes run to upright, shame as he can be a very effective ball runner has potential but needs work.

 If going on form Burns, Eastmond, Manu should be the partnerships.

  Great to see slater Captain over experienced players, a real leader cant wait to see him and Kitchener at work week in week out together over the next 2 seasons.

Welly wrote:

DaveM wrote:Burrell had a worse game than Twelvetrees and didn't have the excuse of lack of game time. Depending on fitness I could imagine Twelvetrees and Tuilagi in the centres, Ashton on the wing, and Eastmond on the bench.

But frankly who knows.

 But TBF he has been playing out of his usual club position which is 12.

 Against the 6N they don't have the backs to expose the minor differences but the like of SA, NZ, Aus do.

 Twelvetrees has had plenty of chances and against the big 3 he has come short each time, cant think of one game against big opponents that he has really shone, and tbh it is the same at club he is to inconsistent. He needs to work on composure and maybe running more dynamically he can sometimes run to upright, shame as he can be a very effective ball runner has potential but needs work.

 If going on form Burns, Eastmond, Manu should be the partnerships.

  Great to see slater Captain over experienced players, a real leader cant wait to see him and Kitchener at work week in week out together over the next 2 seasons.

To be fair to 36 he has played Oz once (won), NZ twice (lost 2) and hasnt played against SA at all.

Out of a total of 14 games he has been on the losing side 4 times, 2x vs NZ, 1x vs France and I guess he was a sub in THAT game vs Wales

But he was poor against Australia wasn't he?

http://www.therugbyblog.com/england-v-australia-england-player-ratings

HammerofThunor wrote:But he was poor against Australia wasn't he?

http://www.therugbyblog.com/england-v-australia-england-player-ratings

Cant help wondering how bad the ratings would have been had we lost....

Partnerships in rugby are important. I'd challenge anyone to look good next to Tomkins! That for me was a selection error from Bomber!

HammerofThunor wrote:But he was poor against Australia wasn't he?

http://www.therugbyblog.com/england-v-australia-england-player-ratings

Yes he was (although the missed tackle was in part because it wasn't his man). He then improved against New Zealand, and got better and better throughout the 6 Nations. He did not play badly on Saturday, although he did make some mistakes.

The fact he's accused of never having played well against South Africa, when he's never played them at-all, neatly illustrates that judgements of him are getting less and less objective.

Pees me off Slade and Todd won't play. Good chance to see how they perform against England, albeit in a different context. Injury cover for NZ does not mean they get game time. Here's an opportunity to give them game time and they're prevented from playing.   

Twelvetrees has a lot of skills and potential im not doubting that and ive defended him in the past after the Oz game etc.
 
He could be a cracker...and i would despite what ive said on other threads if he was to really make that position his own then great. He has all the attributes...but he just puts me on edge. And if everyone is honest, he was very poor on Saturday.
 
I guess he can only improve if he is selected this weekend.

Some players take to test rugby straight away like launchbury
Some players like twelvetrees can take up to 20 matches before they show their club form at test level
It's the same in cricket

Who is ref tmrw?

Re Saturday, 36 needs a timeout. Manu did a couple of great offloads on sat. 36's kicking was woeful. Perfect time to try eastmond Manu w Ashton on the wing, burns/cip at 10.

Nigel Owens.

With Farrell ruled out this is suddenly a huge chance for Cipriani to state a claim . He looked alright off the bench in the first test with that break and nerve less kick. Myler must feel gutted as he's gone from Farrell strength kindly back up to fourth choice on tour and likely fifth overall once Ford returns.