Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

Also with Moffat off does this leave the 43 clubs who called the EGM a bit exposed?

A number of these are the regions themselves, and their associated clubs, but what about the rest, will Lewis be gunning for them?

I have heard murmurs of both, but at the moment to get a murmur going all you need to is post something on a forum here, or social media there and it takes life. It is just a waiting game I guess now.

geoff998rugby wrote:Also with Moffat off does this leave the 43 clubs who called the EGM a bit exposed?

There will be no EGM, i think, if RRW get their RSA and withdraw their 9 votes.

gcBlues wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Also with Moffat off does this leave the 43 clubs who called the EGM a bit exposed?

There will be no EGM, i think, if RRW get their RSA and withdraw their 9 votes.

9 Votes, surely it is only 4?

Also if they were to do that, it would not be in their own best interests. They would stand to lose a lot of grass roots support. Already there seems to be a witch hunt for the 13 clubs who turned in empty envelopes (allegedly).

I think the 9 includes the Region feeder clubs so presumably they would be withdrawing their votes as well.

Some RRW supporters on Gwlad seem to be very angry about this very matter.

Geoff - to my knowledge none of the feeder clubs (in the welsh prem anyway) got involved.

Moffett is a darlin'
Moffett is a dote,
He plays the cuddly rabbit,
But really, he's a stoat.

"What Is Going On In Wales?"
Dark forces, Ringwraiths doing the rounds and flying monkeys, as ever.

So long as the ringwraiths don't sit under the flying monkeys at the EGM, and the dark forces bring dark chocolate, and the nice American mediator brings his light sabre, rugby could be about to thrive in Wales.

What was he doing there?;

"Gerald Davies, the former Wales and Lions wing who is on the WRU’s board of directors and sits on the International Rugby Board, shocked the delegates at the meeting when he took the floor during the no-confidence motion which, if passed, would have required him and his fellow directors to resign immediately without the right to stand for office again.

“Ours is not a good image,” he said. “We need to restore our dignity and it is depressing that we have such a reputation. We need to have a strong identity and we need cohesion, collaboration and cooperation. We need to restore Welsh rugby and not through self-interest.
Advertisement

“We cannot carry on with having more of the same. We need the right rugby governance Welsh rugby can be proud of. We cannot come back here in five years’ time for another EGM, as has become the pattern. If we do, we have failed. We cannot leave here without believing we need to change.”

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/15/welsh-rugby-union-vote-no-confidence-gerald-davies

Following on from the old threads -:
https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
https://www.606v2.com/t50811p1000-what-is-going-on-in-wales-pt2

Huge range of stuff to be discussed

Participation Agreement (deadlines never getting met)
Rugby Services Agreement
Attempted Mutinies By Regions
League Structure Reforms
EGMs
Central Contracts
Roger Lewis, Dai Moffett, Gerald Davies

.....and more

Pt.4 coming soon!
You better add, WRU elections in August, to your list. Not sure what they mean exactly, but they're happening in any case.

Considering the whole things started with the idea of "Can/Will the regions leave the WRU and join the Aviva" it is amazing how long we have been going without a clue about what on earth is really happening in Wales. I reckon we could get up to Pt.4 or Pt.5 if we really put our tribal mind-set to it.

Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

I'm becoming fairly sure that no, no-one does including the ringleaders of the circus...

Also what does or what has Dickering ever brought to the party. he's been there for years now and when things go wrong he's still there what does he actually do?

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

I'm becoming fairly sure that no, no-one does including the ringleaders of the circus...

If by "fix", you mean a solution that will make everyone happy then no, not a chance.

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

That question can be answered by a one word answer, and I think we would all agree on the answer too, no, nobody knows how to fix what's going on.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

That question can be answered by a one word answer, and I think we would all agree on the answer too, no, nobody knows how to fix what's going on.

There again, some things are too awkward and outdated to be fixed. Like a washing m/c.

So...am not entirely sure of what's going in Wales myself (although I read most of part1 and some part2)... assuming we're heading towards a status quo with no change of governance and with the regions still playing in the pro12 next year right? what happens with Warbuton and his central contract?

Yes - easily done.
1 - The WRU take a 49% stake in all the Regions, they give each Region the same funding and fund two centrally contracted players per Region above the funding.
2 - The other 49% is owned by private enterprise, be that a single owner, a consortium, a shareholder group or a cooperative. The job of this part of the club is to do the actual running of the club on and off the field, all profits, sponsorship, etc. are the clubs to to with as they wish.
3 - 2% of shares are held in trust by an independent body from the main shareholders and only use their vote at the AGM.
4 - Each Region to provide 200 days free coaching per year to clubs and schools within their catchment area - this includes running coaching programmes, referee training, etc. on behalf of the WRU. The Region also has to appoint a liason officer to establish relationships with all the Premiership clubs in their area.
5 - Championship clubs agree to work with and in support of their Region in areas such as coaching, player development and shared ticketing.
6- Championship clubs with aspirations to join the professional ranks are to be encouraged and if able to produce a sustainable business plan that does not require more the 25% funding from the WRU are welcome to apply to join the PRO12.
7 - Championship clubs are to develop relationships with the junior clubs in their areas - again sharing coaches, getting into schools, player development. etc.
8 - Every club in Wales is mandated, indeed obliged to run a youth section and a womens section - even if it's only for friendlies, tag or sevens.
9 - Petition the Welsh Assembly to make the playing of rugby in schools (primary and secondary) a compulsory part of the PE curriculum - this to include at least one visit to a Championship or Regional club.
10 - Set up a committee of ex-players, the WRU, RRW, MPs/MWAs, the universities, etc.  who meet every four months to ensure that all the above are working and recommend amendments and improvements.
Job done - my application is on the way to Roger.... 

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

I'm becoming fairly sure that no, no-one does including the ringleaders of the circus...

Pay off the "region" owners, buy out the players contracts. Set up 3 main regions in the south cities and one in the north as representative sides with centrally contracted players. No place names associated - purely regional brands. Premiership and championship one up one down - entry dependent on play-off and meeting ground criteria etc. Amateur leagues structured within regions. Clubs tied into regional pyramid structure and some representation in governance of regional sides....

.... anyone got a few hundred millon £££££?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:.... anyone got a few hundred millon £££££?

I am Hector Riva, welcome to my world!

Irish Londoner wrote:Yes - easily done.
1 - The WRU take a 49% stake in all the Regions, they give each Region the same funding and fund two centrally contracted players per Region above the funding.
2 - The other 49% is owned by private enterprise, be that a single owner, a consortium, a shareholder group or a cooperative. The job of this part of the club is to do the actual running of the club on and off the field, all profits, sponsorship, etc. are the clubs to to with as they wish.
3 - 2% of shares are held in trust by an independent body from the main shareholders and only use their vote at the AGM.
4 - Each Region to provide 200 days free coaching per year to clubs and schools within their catchment area - this includes running coaching programmes, referee training, etc. on behalf of the WRU. The Region also has to appoint a liason officer to establish relationships with all the Premiership clubs in their area.
5 - Championship clubs agree to work with and in support of their Region in areas such as coaching, player development and shared ticketing.
6- Championship clubs with aspirations to join the professional ranks are to be encouraged and if able to produce a sustainable business plan that does not require more the 25% funding from the WRU are welcome to apply to join the PRO12.
7 - Championship clubs are to develop relationships with the junior clubs in their areas - again sharing coaches, getting into schools, player development. etc.
8 - Every club in Wales is mandated, indeed obliged to run a youth section and a womens section - even if it's only for friendlies, tag or sevens.
9 - Petition the Welsh Assembly to make the playing of rugby in schools (primary and secondary) a compulsory part of the PE curriculum - this to include at least one visit to a Championship or Regional club.
10 - Set up a committee of ex-players, the WRU, RRW, MPs/MWAs, the universities, etc.  who meet every four months to ensure that all the above are working and recommend amendments and improvements.
Job done - my application is on the way to Roger.... 

That's good, he loves this kind of pie in the sky BS

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

I'm becoming fairly sure that no, no-one does including the ringleaders of the circus...

Pay off the "region" owners, buy out the players contracts. Set up 3 main regions in the south cities and one in the north as representative sides with centrally contracted players. No place names associated - purely regional brands. Premiership and championship one up one down - entry dependent on play-off and meeting ground criteria etc. Amateur leagues structured within regions. Clubs tied into regional pyramid structure and some representation in governance of regional sides........ anyone got a few hundred millon £££££?

Why should we spend "a few hundred million £££££" utterly destroying rugby in Wales using the above plan, when we can get Roger to do it for £300k + bonuses?

Stone Motif wrote:That's good, he loves this kind of pie in the sky BS

Stone, a bit pie in the sky true but if all the levels of Welsh rugby don't find some common ground soon and start cooperating then it is finished.

Maybe we need a schism of sorts.

whocares wrote:So...am not entirely sure of what's going in Wales myself (although I read most of part1 and some part2)... assuming we're heading towards a status quo with no change of governance and with the regions still playing in the pro12 next year right? what happens with Warbuton and his central contract?

Nor me mun, but I have my suspicions.

Stone Motif wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Better question "Does anyone know how to fix whats going on in Wales?"

I'm becoming fairly sure that no, no-one does including the ringleaders of the circus...

Pay off the "region" owners, buy out the players contracts. Set up 3 main regions in the south cities and one in the north as representative sides with centrally contracted players. No place names associated - purely regional brands. Premiership and championship one up one down - entry dependent on play-off and meeting ground criteria etc. Amateur leagues structured within regions. Clubs tied into regional pyramid structure and some representation in governance of regional sides........ anyone got a few hundred millon £££££?

Why should we spend "a few hundred million £££££" utterly destroying rugby in Wales using the above plan, when we can get Roger to do it for £300k + bonuses?

He's a bargain then!
Does he do financial stuff etc?  

Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions. Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.
A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

Munchkin wrote:Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions. Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.
A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

I'm bored of this and the weather's nice.
Think i'll eat my sandwiches outside today.

So long as they're not prawn  

Munchkin wrote:So long as they're not prawn  

Prawnless, but a club sandwich of course.

The club sandwich is a hearty meal. The prawn sandwich wouldn't agree with you at all. It's a lovely day. Enjoy  

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:That's good, he loves this kind of pie in the sky BS

Stone, a bit pie in the sky true but if all the levels of Welsh rugby don't find some common ground soon and start cooperating then it is finished.

No, it's becoming all the more apparent that unity between the different levels is holding everything back

Cardiff Dave wrote:Maybe we need a schism of sorts.

In other words, this

Munchkin wrote:Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions. Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.
A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

Eh? So the answer is to force the regions to be even more subservient to the misguided committee men in clubs across Wales, noses firmly in trough and arse ripe for a Rogering?

Clubs can't 'buy into' regions because they have zero experience or empathy of the needs of professional entities, beyond a misguided sense of entitlement, of course.

What makes them misguided? That they voted in support of the current WRU? That they don't particularly like the current regional set-up? 
The Regions are hardly subservient to the clubs. What do you base that claim on? The recent vote was all to do with the club structure, not the Regions? The recent vote that the Regions claim to have sided with the clubs over?
There's a few online that have turned on the clubs since that vote, and for all the wrong reasons, and it reflects poorly on those that do. Same applies to Moffett in his most recent rants.
You say that the clubs can't buy into the Regions due to lack of empathy, but there are other possible reasons, aren't there? One being that not all view the Regions as Regions, but superclubs. That perception needs to change. 
It seems that the few are demanding that the structure around them change to accommodate the Regions, and yet refuse to consider that perhaps it is the Regions that need to change in order to bring harmony to Welsh rugby as a whole.

Munchkin wrote:Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions.

The regional issue was not discussed during the EGM vote.  The vote was more about the league restructure (which was not going to be undone), and the WRUs financial stuff.

Munchkin wrote:Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.

Supposedly the regions did not vote in the EGM as it was a club matter, and as such it should be in the hands of the clubs.

Munchkin wrote:A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/former-ospreys-prop-andrew-millward-7285377

Looks like the Ospreys are still continuing with their attempts at making connections with those inside their region (and others are two but this is a new article), even though they have said in the past they have been hampered in their progress with this.[/quote]
[/quote]

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions.

The regional issue was not discussed during the EGM vote.  The vote was more about the league restructure (which was not going to be undone), and the WRUs financial stuff.

Munchkin wrote:Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.

Supposedly the regions did not vote in the EGM as it was a club matter, and as such it should be in the hands of the clubs.

Munchkin wrote:A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/former-ospreys-prop-andrew-millward-7285377

Looks like the Ospreys are still continuing with their attempts at making connections with those inside their region (and others are two but this is a new article), even though they have said in the past they have been hampered in their progress with this.

[/quote][/quote]


From BBC

Regional Rugby Wales acting chief executive Mark Davies said they voted with the majority of clubs and in favour of the WRU board.

Saw this on the Scarletfever site, perfect summing up of the issues

St Clears don't like Whitland because some of there best players go to Whitland. Whitland don't like Carmarthen Quins because there players go to there and Carmarthen Quins don't like it because there best players play for the Region. The Scralets don't like Wales because there best players play for Wales.

That sums up whats wrong in Welsh rugby.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Saw this on the Scarletfever site, perfect summing up of the issues

St Clears don't like Whitland because some of there best players go to Whitland. Whitland don't like Carmarthen Quins because there players go to there and Carmarthen Quins don't like it because there best players play for the Region. The Scralets don't like Wales because there best players play for Wales.

That sums up whats wrong in Welsh rugby.

What you mean appalling grammar? I think there are worse issues than that to deal with.   

Dr Nick, forgiving the spelling, it is pretty much bang on. At every level we think the ones below us are being grumpy and awkward, and that those above us are trying their best to poop on us and keep us in our place.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Think there already is a schism, and there has been for years. The vast majority of Welsh rugby fans, and clubs, haven't bought into the Regions, as evidenced in the recent EGM vote.
Some Regions fans are now calling for a split between the clubs and Regions, but only because some interpret the clubs voting massively against a vote of no confidence as siding with the WRU, and against the regions.

The regional issue was not discussed during the EGM vote.  The vote was more about the league restructure (which was not going to be undone), and the WRUs financial stuff.

Munchkin wrote:Strange logic when the Regions themselves didn't vote against the status quo.

Supposedly the regions did not vote in the EGM as it was a club matter, and as such it should be in the hands of the clubs.

Munchkin wrote:A split isn't the answer, unity between WRU, the Regions, and the Clubs, is, and the only way that is going to happen is if the Regions become something that the majority of Welsh clubs, and fans, can buy into.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/former-ospreys-prop-andrew-millward-7285377

Looks like the Ospreys are still continuing with their attempts at making connections with those inside their region (and others are two but this is a new article), even though they have said in the past they have been hampered in their progress with this.

[/quote][/quote]

Yep. It was me making the point that the vote was on club structure, not Regions   

As to whether the Regions voted in the EGM, or not, it depends on who you believe, I suppose. Anywho... and not knowing the facts of that, I made a point of stating that the Regions didn't vote against the current status quo, the No Confidence vote, not that they voted for, or against. Regardless of the purpose of the EGM, this is something they could have voted for if they wanted to register any issue with the current chairman of WRU.

Out of all the Regions, the Ospreys are perceived to be most Region like, by most, I think, and I do appreciate that there has been some effort by the Regions to address Welsh fans perception of them. There are two sides to this story, and personally I am not against any Region, but believe that perception must change if Welsh rugby, as a whole, is to move forward.

Munchkin, the whole perception of the regions not embracing their region, and not making an effort to be inclusive, tends to be from either the outside (no disrespect, but a number of Non-Welsh posters on here have had a field day with running the regions down without actually having a clue of what is really happening) or from a few small pockets of disgruntled fans of the pre-regional system (again no disrespect meant, but as anyone younger than 30 and they will follow a region, or not follow rugby).

At the sound of sounding like Mr Lewis, there is a lot of coverage of the load grumblings of a few, and not a real reflection of affairs.   

It's true, I'm only an outsider   

My own perception isn't so much that the Regions are not embracing their allocated regional catchment areas population, but more that those areas population are not embracing them, due to, in some part, pre-existing loyalties/rivalries between clubs within a particular Regions catchment area at their inception.

In short ........ it's Moffetts fault  

Munchkin wrote:It's true, I'm only an outsider   

My own perception isn't so much that the Regions are not embracing their allocated regional catchment areas population, but more that those areas population are not embracing them, due to, in some part, pre-existing loyalties/rivalries between clubs within a particular Regions catchment area at their inception.

In short ........ it's Moffetts fault  

Those preexisting loyalties would still have been an issue even it we had the Dyfed Druids, Glamorgan Giants, Gwent Gale, and Northern Nomads (poor names I know), because they would still be fed by existing clubs etc. Just look at some bickering in when one province/region club dominates a national team, or heaven forbid if one nation provides the bulk of the Lions team. Its just human nature to whine and grumble. So it us. <insert deity of choice> fault for creating us

I think they're great names   

Some will always grumble at losing players to Clubs/Regions/Provinces, but that's a different argument, as is which sides have most representation in the national team.
What you want is the fans from all clubs within a Regions catchment area feeling they can support a particular Region without seeing this as somehow conflicting with their club loyalties. I'm sure some can happily support club, and Region, but not all. Anyway, that's just a part of the problem. The hybrid model of the Regions is another. It doesn't appear to work, and I'm not sure it can in Wales. Very happy to be proven wrong though, but there has been issues from the start, and it's difficult to see past WRU taking full ownership as an answer to the problems. At least for the most part. 

Just my opinion though  

Munchkin wrote:It's true, I'm only an outsider   

You lucky b******.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's true, I'm only an outsider   

You lucky b******.