McILroy Announces Who He Will Represent At the Olympics....

First topic message reminder :

Ireland!!!

Another good day for Irish golf.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/rory-mcilroy-olympics-ireland-1524016-Jun2014/

Still plenty of time for a u-turn.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that he waited till after Portrush was confirmed as a British Open venue to make this decision?

GunsGerms wrote:

super_realist wrote:I can't think of anything which makes Ireland a better country than any other, and even if I could I wasn't denying any of the undoubtable good things that may occur or come out of there.
I was simply pointing out the rapid anti Britishness which is as childish as it is stupid.

Maybe if Ireland interests you so much as it clearly does you should educate yourself on it a little more then. Read the link I sent you for a start. There are lots of things that Ireland rank higher than the UK on for example.

Rapid? Surely you can understand that an element of anti-Britishness is inevitable when British rule in Northern Ireland up until recently has been such a massive failure? Even the proudest British person must surely be able to acknowledge that. The Queen on her recent visit to Dublin did.

I was on holidays in Tenerife recently. The place was full of tattooed British punters on their low fares holidays. If I didnt already have a lot of friends, family and colleagues from England etc. I may be excused for thinking that English people are some of the dumbest most ignorant people on the planet. The point I'm making is that both Britain and Ireland are full of louts but also full of ordinary decent people too.

Your comments re Ireland and Irish people reveal more about you than any reality over here.

Guns, NI isn't relative to your study.
I don't deny Britain is full of idiots too, but when I refer to Ireland in terms of being backward, I'm thinking in general of their religious stupidity, antiquated abortion laws, constant over-sensitivity about history and over the top reaction to Britain.

Many of the catholic churches indiscretions in Ireland were covered up for years so it is understandable that for many people they were only aware of the good things the church contributed to society. Not unlike how many people in the UK thought Jimmy Saville was a good man for the good work for charity that he did.

These days inevitably however, Catholicism is in rapid decline in Ireland.  

The leader of Ireland Enda Kenny has been very outspoken against the church and the Vatican. A risky tactic in a country where supposedly 90% of the electorate is Catholic? Actually no because it just reflects the growing mistrust for the church in Irish society. He is preaching to the crowd.

According to the Global Index of Religiosity and Atheism Ireland is actually one of the most atheist societies in the world ahead of Britain.

http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/14/file/14.pdf

I have discussed abortion with you before and have no interest in getting into it again. I dont think it is a religious debate.

It's not a surprise that in overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion.

Interesting link, but the United Kingdom/Great Britain aren't even mentioned in it, so not sure how you can claim that Ireland is less religious when it doesn't even make a comparison.

super_realist wrote:It's not a surprise that in overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion.

Interesting link, but the United Kingdom/Great Britain aren't even mentioned in it, so not sure how you can claim that Ireland is less religious when it doesn't even make a comparison..

Explain to me then why Italy has equavilent abortion laws to the UK?

Britain isnt mentioned because it doesnt make the top 11 most athiest countries in the world whereas Ireland does.

GunsGerms wrote:

super_realist wrote:It's not a surprise that in overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion.

Explain to me then why Italy has equavilent abortion laws to the UK?

I didn't mention their laws.

So if Ireland's barbaric laws in regard to Abortion aren't related to religion, where do they come from?

GunsGerms wrote:

super_realist wrote:It's not a surprise that in overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion.

Interesting link, but the United Kingdom/Great Britain aren't even mentioned in it, so not sure how you can claim that Ireland is less religious when it doesn't even make a comparison..

Explain to me then why Italy has equavilent abortion laws to the UK?

Britain isnt mentioned because it doesnt make the top 11 most athiest countries in the world whereas Ireland does.

WRONG, it states quite clearly that just 39 countries were polled.

If it was a true representation of religiosity, then Denmark, Norway and Sweden would be right up there, but they aren't in there either.

You are avoiding the question. Italy is the most Catholic country in the world yet they legislate for abortion unopposed yet you claim overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion? Your claim is clearly unfounded, no?

I already told you that Ireland's abortion laws are derived from British law dating back to the period of British occupation. This is a fact.

super_realist wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

super_realist wrote:It's not a surprise that in overtly Catholic countries there is more opposition to abortion.

Interesting link, but the United Kingdom/Great Britain aren't even mentioned in it, so not sure how you can claim that Ireland is less religious when it doesn't even make a comparison..

Explain to me then why Italy has equavilent abortion laws to the UK?

Britain isnt mentioned because it doesnt make the top 11 most athiest countries in the world whereas Ireland does.

WRONG, it states quite clearly that just 39 countries were polled.

If it was a true representation of religiosity, then Denmark, Norway and Sweden would be right up there, but they aren't in there either.

Fair enough but notwithstanding that you have to admit that the poll does indicate that Ireland isnt as religious as you make out.

I bet you'd find that the population who are catholic aren't in favour if it.
Fortunately Italy's lawmakers see past fairytale beliefs.

It could be true that Ireland may not be as bible thumping crzy as I thought, doesn't mean the Church hasn't had influence on laws

super_realist wrote:I bet you'd find that the population who are catholic aren't in favour if it.
Fortunately Italy's lawmakers see past fairytale beliefs.

"I bet you'd find that the population who are catholic aren't in favour if it"

So your beliefs are based on unfounded speculation too?

Britain's abortion laws are fairly antiquated too. There are those that believe that they require significant reform. I think this article summaries some of the issues quite nicely:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-21297404

super_realist wrote:It could be true that Ireland may not be as bible thumping crzy as I thought, doesn't mean the Church hasn't had influence on laws

It did in the past but over 30 years ago Irish legislation was amended to remove any religious influence in law making in Ireland.

I'm sure you could say the UK were antiquated, however at least an individual has a choice.

super_realist wrote:I'm sure you could say the UK were antiquated, however at least an individual has a choice.

I like most modern govenments am not in favour of individuals having a choice on all matters that directly affects them. You live in a society where your government makes choices all the time on your behalf.

Such as? Nothing in relation to making an individual stay pregnant.

Re abortion UK law states:

that a woman must face a greater risk to her mental or physical health by continuing with an unwanted pregnancy than if she had an abortion.

Two doctors need to sign a document to that effect.

Enforcement of this law is clearly lax however, doctors in the UK in theory do have the power to refuse the "right" to an abortion.

Im not British so other than the above I cant think of any examples. In Sweden though for example the government gave civil servants the right to choose what their pension plan invested in. High risk bonds vs government bonds. After a few years the goverment removed this right after a trend developed where individuals were plans were doing very badly because the average Swede isnt knowledgable enough to be given the choice so this right was removed.

The point I'm making is sometimes and I'm not necessarly referring to abortion it isnt in the publics interest to be given freedom of choice as they arent qualified to make the right decision.

It's a GOVERNMENT pension scheme, run using my NI contribuitions.
I can decide how my own personal pension is invested, just not my state one. I don't see the issue. I also don't live in Sweden.

super_realist wrote:It's a GOVERNMENT pension scheme, run using my NI contribuitions.
I can decide how my own personal pension is invested, just not my state one. I don't see the issue. I also don't live in Sweden.

Exactly? It is a pension scheme funded by your own money which you have earned. There is no issue Im just giving you an example how freedom of choice on every aspect of your life is not a reality in modern society and never will be and nor should it be in my opinion.

Yes, but it's not the same as making you remain pregnant. It's not even remotely comparable.

The government pension scheme is run by my TAXES. Obviously I don't have a choice what my taxes are spent on. I'm not demanding it does, it all sounds a bit tinfoil hat and anti-establishment to complain about not having "total freedom" whatever that is, short of living on a desert island, i'm not sure how you could (or want to)

I agree with super, no comparison whatsoever. What you do/don't do with your own body should not be the decision of others. You would have high/divine thoughts of yourself if you think you knew what was best/right for others.

super_realist wrote:Yes, but it's not the same as making you remain pregnant. It's not even remotely comparable.

The government pension scheme is run by my TAXES. Obviously I don't have a choice what my taxes are spent on. I'm not demanding it does, it all sounds a bit tinfoil hat and anti-establishment to complain about not having "total freedom" whatever that is, short of living on a desert island, i'm not sure how you could (or want to)

I already said I wasnt necessarly referring to or drawing comparisons with abortion. I was asked for an example of how the govt makes decisions for us. It would be a radical comparison however, as already pointed out UK and indeed most abortion laws do not allow for a simple choice without conditions which is probably the way it should be.

You are conditioned to accept these things as norms because presumably you are happy with the decisions your government makes on your behalf or maybe it isnt something you care to think about like many citizens.

I never complained about not having total freedom at all. I dont believe in free will I completely acknowledge that it doesnt exist.

Yes, and we elect the government to make policy on our behalf.

Of course there needs to be certain conditions for abortion, eg a cut off point, but not allowing a woman to have any sort of choice is barbaric.

Of course I'll never be happy with everything a government does, but you know what, I'll get my chance to get rid of them in the ballot box. I don't have the choice if I lived in Ireland to get rid of a law which decides what a woman can do with her own body as no party is campaigning to repeal the law.

The UK government doesn't make any such barbaric and draconian claims on it's citizens, and Ireland is an utter disgrace for doing so, and I believe that is primarily due to the influence of the Catholic church in their political set -up.

super_realist wrote:Yes, and we elect the government to make policy on our behalf.

Of course there needs to be certain conditions for abortion, eg a cut off point, but not allowing a woman to have the choice is barbaric.

Of course I'll never be happy with everything a government does, but you know what, I'll get my chance to get rid of them in the ballot box. I don't have the choice if I lived in Ireland to get rid of a law which decides what a woman can do with her own body as no party is campaigning to repeal the law.

The UK government doesn't make any such barbaric and draconian claims on it's citizens, and Ireland is an utter disgrace for doing so, and I believe that is primarily due to the influence of the Catholic church in their political set -up.

Historically how often have UK goverments kept all of their election promises? You may elect them but ultimately they do act on your behalf even when you didnt vote for the ones that get into office.

What is your belief based on Super?
How can you prove that abortion laws in Ireland are solely influenced by the Catholic church?
How are your beliefs any more baseless than religious beliefs?
Why do you ignore the fact that Irish abortion laws were originally inacted during the period of British occupation?

Ok back to work. Bye for now.

GunsGerms wrote:

super_realist wrote:Yes, and we elect the government to make policy on our behalf.

Of course there needs to be certain conditions for abortion, eg a cut off point, but not allowing a woman to have the choice is barbaric.

Of course I'll never be happy with everything a government does, but you know what, I'll get my chance to get rid of them in the ballot box. I don't have the choice if I lived in Ireland to get rid of a law which decides what a woman can do with her own body as no party is campaigning to repeal the law.

The UK government doesn't make any such barbaric and draconian claims on it's citizens, and Ireland is an utter disgrace for doing so, and I believe that is primarily due to the influence of the Catholic church in their political set -up.

Historically how often have UK goverments kept all of their election promises? You may elect them but ultimately they do act on your behalf even when you didnt vote for the ones that get into office.

What is your belief based on Super?
How can you prove that abortion laws in Ireland are solely influenced by the Catholic church?
How are your beliefs any more baseless than religious beliefs?
Why do you ignore the fact that Irish abortion laws were originally inacted during the period of British occupation?

Anti abortion is a tenant of Catholicism. It's only been legal in the UK since 67', yet the Irish saw fit to make a new act in 2013 and continue to enforce an outdated and unpopular law.
I'm not saying the UK is perfect, or even close to it, but the Irish haven't made any progress on this at all, what other justification other than the overwhelming Catholic influence on the country have they got for holding the ancient barbaric law?
At least Italy was man enough to tell the church IT will decide the laws.

Anyway enough. Mcilroy, if selected will represent Ireland in a fat mans sport which has no place in the Olympics. Amazing.

For some reason I think you want to believe that it is religiously motivated. I cannot come up with any proof that it is and neither can you. It suits you to think that for some reason though?

I already mentioned that the current leader of the country has historically been very outspoken when it comes to the church. There are some that think he may even be athiest. The deputy prime minister Eamon Gilmore is an athiest. therefore it is very unlikely the government was influenced in any way by the church for the 2013 bill which was enacted as far as I recall to clarify and tighten the legislation that protects women who are at risk of death during pregnancy as highlighted in the tragic Savita Halappanavar case.

Im not going to discuss the pros and cons of abortion and alternative reasons for anti abortion movements because it doesnt really interest me but also because it is clearly a very emotive subject for many including you. I just disagree that it is a purely a religious debate as highlighted by the BBC article I linked earlier.

In all fairness there are plenty of examples where Irish laws are very progressive. Ireland being the first country in the world to introduce a smoking ban for example.

I'm positing a link between Ireland being a Catholic based country and their medieval laws, where by your own link 47% declare themselves religious and the Catholic church is very outspoken and involved in all the debate around it?

I couldn't really care less about it, as it doesn't affect me, I just think it's very Victorian to deny people such a basic right that the rest of the civilised world permits.

Of course it's not purely religious, but to say it's nothing to do with religion would be naive.