What went wrong with England?

First topic message reminder :

How has our WC turned into such a nightmare?

I believe not having Ashley Cole in the squad left us with no alternatives to Baines who has looked poor all tournament.

The central defence looked very poor. Jagielka is just not good enough at this level and also he was coming back from injury. I believe JT should have been in the squad.

Tactical decisions cost us. At half-time when we were 1-1 with Italy why not substitute Rooney for Milner who offers more protection on the flank? It was so obvious Italy if they did score, and they did would make it happen down rooney's wing as he just was not protecting Baines.

Why did steven gerrard play the full 90mins in both games?? he hasn't got the legs to do that and we really could have used someone like OX or Wilshire coming on.

I also think it was a horrible decision to play sterling on the wing in the 2nd game so that we could accomodate rooney in the middle. Sterling was the best layer on the pitch in the first game behind the striker so why move him? It cost us against Uruguay as Sterling looked poor on the wing.

Things do not look good for the England national team for Euro 2016 as we look to have gone backwards.

A loss to Costa Rica would mean 3 defeats in 3 games and would signal just how bad we are.

I love it when players show passion, but then I look at Luiz and think 'calm down'. What to do?

Even England wouldn't have got pumped like that.

Brazil have been underwhelming so far in this tournament and got exactly what was due to them.

Derbymanc wrote:@Raf

A lot of people have more problems with the fact that lately it seems that players aren't playing their hearts out for the country.

There's lots of little things of why we're not doing so well but one of the main things is that we're not (and haven't been for a while) as good as we're often made out to be. Our younger players seem to be happy to coast through for their sponsorships/wages without really trying to better themselves or fight for something (eg Tom Ince - Not an International I know but how many of us would give up the chance to Play for Inter to instead play for Hull).

Wages will forever be brought up as not many of us can imagine being paid that much to do something we love (we forget that some of these players don't like football and for them it is a job.)
Same as heart, we cherish our respected clubs (International and Domestic) not realising that the geezer your screaming your lungs out for one minute, isn't that bothered about the crest on his chest.

On a serious note for a change Derby, I'm not that surprised that a player like Ince chose Hull over Inter (he must need his head read, but maybe "The Guv'nor" put him off), but British players have a very bad habit of sticking with what is comfortable, often resulting in claims of a complete lack of ambition, and rightly so.
How many players have had the chance to play abroad in the last decade, but turned it down (whether or not it's for money). I think this is a major reason for England in particular failing in top competition. They don't get used to the continental style of football, other than Champions League which might only be a few games, they don't learn new skills and don't learn how to play any other way than the way they play in Britain, crucially though, they don't play under different styles of management.


There isn't a top country in the world (and I'm not including England in that list) where 90% of the International team play in the domestic league. People will say how good the Premier League is, how good the players are etc, but it doesn't seem to translate to the International game.
England can scarcely get much lower in International football. It couldn't possibly harm them for at least 25% of the players to show a bit of ambition and go and play in Italy, Spain and Germany (should a team be willing to take any of them). Countries that know how to progress in tournaments.

Absolute Shock Horror but I am in 100 percent agreement with you on this one SR. Players need to get experience elsewhere to learn the different types of football that are played. The fact that they're not says 2 things for me.

1. Our players that we laud over are not good enough for so called 'inferior' leagues.
2. Our players don't have the ambition of other nationality's to learn the game in it's entirity.

Furthermore Derby,
I think the Premier League is over-rated greatly. Spanish, Italian and German teams have won the CL more in the last 20 years than those from the Premier League, so in actual footballing terms, it's only the 4th best League in Europe and is inferior to those leagues.

It might pay more, it might get more viewers, but in terms of how it prepares players for international football, not really where it's at.

I know Milan is a dump, but who in their right mind would rather play at Hull than in the San Siro? Ince should be sectioned. Even if he was on 25% of his salary at Inter, he'd still be minted. Greed first, football, somewhere considerably down the list of priorities. He should be embarrassed

The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

To be honest SR,

I only watch the PL when I'm at work and I've generally got a book or am playing a game whilst it's on. I tend to only watch the Manchester Derby with full attention (Obviously I always watch the few Derby C games that are on.)

I'm still having trouble believing that anyone would choose Hull over Milan, family reasons don't make sense either as surely you'd rather move your family to Milan???

Greed is the name of the game in English football at the moment and down to grassroots football it's not about enjoying the game anymore it's about getting what you can out of it.

Even if Hull were actually challenging and not just Premiership makeweight, consistent relegation battlers, I still can't make a case for it.
Italy is a fantastic country, and regardless of what his reasons are, he's definitely missing out on something, even if all it was was to broaden his mind and learn another language with his football coming somewhere down the line.

I can't help thinking that this simply confirms the lack of culture of British players.

"So, we've had a couple of offers for you son, Hull City and Inter"
"Eh, I'll go to Hull boss, that Milan would be like living in a foreign country"

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

Watch both and see. The best teams in the EPL are better than the Italian ones, and pretty much the same with our 2nd tier ones. How have the Italian teams done in the CL over the past 3-4 seasons. Probably better looking at that period, rather when the Italian league was the best (the 90's).

"So, we've had a couple of offers for you son, Hull City and Inter"
"Eh, I'll go to Hull boss, that Milan would be like living in a foreign country"

  

I really don't understand it, but then again we've got English youngsters going for 30mil, a 1 season championship wonder being sold for 11mil. English football is losing it's marbles.

Maybe he just wants to play in a much better league?

I do agree in that our players should broaden their horizon though.

Stella wrote:Maybe he just wants to play in a much better league?I do agree in that our players should broaden their horizon though.

 
Exactly.

I don't see it Stella or West,

The PL might be a better league but Hull over Milan???????????????

I would understand if he'd moved to a bigger club but to choose Hull over Milan is bonkers.

For his family he's been given an opportunity to broaden their horizons which can only help in the long run. He's going to earn enough to fly his family over every week if he wants so it just seems like a bizarre decision.  

Derbymanc wrote:I don't see it Stella or West,

The PL might be a better league but Hull over Milan???????????????

I would understand if he'd moved to a bigger club but to choose Hull over Milan is bonkers.

For his family he's been given an opportunity to broaden their horizons which can only help in the long run. He's going to earn enough to fly his family over every week if he wants so it just seems like a bizarre decision.  

I would personally have gone to Inter, for the experience, and weather of course, but his decision isn't as mad as it seems. It's 2014 not 2004.

It's not mad if your really not that bothered about football and just interested in your paycheck.

Maybe his family didn't want to move, who knows.
 
There is europe for him.
Would be at Milan to.
Would play more often at Hull than Milan I guess(dont know what their squad is like).
 
Another factor may have been Bruce.
Bruce and Ince sr anre still good mates as far as i'm aware.
 
Anyway i'm not Tom Ince nor do I know him, so not botherd who he plays for.
 
Just as long as he doesn't score against us next season(will be at the Hull game in august).

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

Watch both and see. The best teams in the EPL are better than the Italian ones, and pretty much the same with our 2nd tier ones. How have the Italian teams done in the CL over the past 3-4 seasons. Probably better looking at that period, rather when the Italian league was the best (the 90's).

The main point being that playing in the EPL doesn't do the National team any good whereas the so-called inferior league of Italy generally outperforms England by a considerable distance in terms of tournament success. Better teams in England, maybe, but doesn't prepare English players for International football as well.

Stella wrote:Maybe he just wants to play in a much better league?

I do agree in that our players should broaden their horizon though.

Or maybe he likes the challenge of getting humped every week and fighting relegation every season.
WHat a loser.

What went wrong?

1. Players simply not good enough
2. Negative coach - should have played the same vs Uruguay as they did vs italy
3. Players NOT GOOD ENOUGH

People want to point to one thing, but ultimately its a collection of many things

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

Watch both and see. The best teams in the EPL are better than the Italian ones, and pretty much the same with our 2nd tier ones. How have the Italian teams done in the CL over the past 3-4 seasons. Probably better looking at that period, rather when the Italian league was the best (the 90's).

The main point being that playing in the EPL doesn't do the National team any good whereas the so-called inferior league of Italy generally outperforms England by a considerable distance in terms of tournament success. Better teams in England, maybe, but doesn't prepare English players for International football as well.

I agree just stating that the EPL is the better league.

Liam wrote:What went wrong?

1. Players simply not good enough
2. Negative coach - should have played the same vs Uruguay as they did vs italy
3. Players NOT GOOD ENOUGH

Part of the reason people (me included) think the players aren't good enough is that they're sitting on their laurels thinking they're amazing when they're not.

No experience with the different types of football that is played.

We can sit and crow about the PL being the best in the world as much as we want, It ain't the best because of the English players that's for sure and when an opportunity arises to ply your trade in another of the great teams in the world, for one of the larger clubs in Europe, you'd hope they'd jump at the chance.

Someone else put it best when they said he'd rather stay as a large fish in a small pond.

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

Watch both and see. The best teams in the EPL are better than the Italian ones, and pretty much the same with our 2nd tier ones. How have the Italian teams done in the CL over the past 3-4 seasons. Probably better looking at that period, rather when the Italian league was the best (the 90's).

The main point being that playing in the EPL doesn't do the National team any good whereas the so-called inferior league of Italy generally outperforms England by a considerable distance in terms of tournament success. Better teams in England, maybe, but doesn't prepare English players for International football as well.

I agree just stating that the EPL is the better league.

Perhaps, but I still think exclusively playing in the EPL over say Italy or Germany is a lack of ambition, especially if you are playing for garbage like Hull, Villa, Newcastle etc.

Italy might be considered a "better league" by many, but chances are you'll become a better, more complete player there than by getting humped at Hull every week surrounded by truly average players.

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:The EPL is superior to the Italian one. No point looking back 20 years.

In what ways? Unless you sign for City, United, Arsenal or Chelsea then I can't see how it is.

Watch both and see. The best teams in the EPL are better than the Italian ones, and pretty much the same with our 2nd tier ones. How have the Italian teams done in the CL over the past 3-4 seasons. Probably better looking at that period, rather when the Italian league was the best (the 90's).

The main point being that playing in the EPL doesn't do the National team any good whereas the so-called inferior league of Italy generally outperforms England by a considerable distance in terms of tournament success. Better teams in England, maybe, but doesn't prepare English players for International football as well.

I agree just stating that the EPL is the better league.

Perhaps, but I still think exclusively playing in the EPL over say Italy or Germany is a lack of ambition, especially if you are playing for garbage like Hull, Villa, Newcastle etc.

Italy might not be considered a "better league" by many, but chances are you'll become a better, more complete player there than by getting humped at Hull every week surrounded by truly average players.

I won't disagree there. Like I said, I would have chosen Inter. Ironically his Dad was one of few exports that done ok abroad.

Very good point Derby, even if people could try and make an argument for the EPL being the best league, it isn't as a result of the English players (or British players) playing within it.

If you had to name the top 5 best players in the PL, how many would be 'british' ?

With Bale gone, none, and you could probably extend that to 10-20.

super_realist wrote:Very good point Derby, even if people could try and make an argument for the EPL being the best league, it isn't as a result of the English players (or British players) playing within it.

I think you'll get a 100% yes from every poster on that.

I'm actually quite surprised that the hateful and thick Cole has gone to Roma, given how uncultured and uneducated he comes across I find it quite a surprising move for such a person to move to one of the most cultured places in Europe. Thought someone like a QPR would pay over the odds for his services and he'd be happy to take it.

Ironically, it won't do the national team any good.

Rooney
Yaya
Aguero
Hazard
RVP

Taking the leap of faith that Suarez will shortly depart these shores.

I think I'd be more likely to put Ramsay ahead of Rooney given as he's generally more consistent, but not in the top 5.

super_realist wrote:I think I'd be more likely to put Ramsay ahead of Rooney given as he's generally more consistent, but not in the top 5.

Half a good season, and all of a sudden, more consistent?

Sorry, Ramsey is not top 5. Not yet by a long shot.

I'd put Sturridge or Sterling ahead of him.

Disregarding Silva, Kompany, Zabaleta Azpiliceuta, Cahill, De Gea and Andy Reid too.

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:I think I'd be more likely to put Ramsay ahead of Rooney given as he's generally more consistent, but not in the top 5.

Half a good season, and all of a sudden, more consistent?

He was only available for about a quarter, but when he's fit he's generally more consistent than Rooney.

Rooney would be up there, but he's too up and down in his form, European class at his best, borderline most of the time.

Would Ince get in the Inter team?
 
If he thought he wouldn't, then choosing Hull, where he would play alot, isn't a bad decision.
 
If I was a footballer, I would want to play on a regular basis.
If that means playing for a weaker team, then so be it.
 
If he sits on the bench most of the season, that sure aint gonna help him progress.
Other players such as Rodwell & Sinclair have done that.
 
Wasting their career sitting on the bench, when they could be playing more often.
 
Again I dont know what players Inter have, if Ince could play on a regular basis.

GSC wrote:Disregarding Silva, Kompany, Zabaleta Azpiliceuta, Cahill, De Gea and Andy Reid too.

Reid has a quality left boot doesn't he.

Tom Ince has always taken the pressure free route.

Its why he sat at Blackpool rather than push for a PL move.

westisbest wrote:Would Ince get in the Inter team?
 
If he thought he wouldn't, then choosing Hull, where he would play alot, isn't a bad decision.
 
If I was a footballer, I would want to play on a regular basis.
If that means playing for a weaker team, then so be it.
 
If he sits on the bench most of the season, that sure aint gonna help him progress.
Other players such as Rodwell & Sinclair have done that.
 
Wasting their career sitting on the bench, when they could be playing more often.
 
Again I dont know what players Inter have, if Ince could play on a regular basis.

That's precisely the lack of ambition and lack of self belief we are talking about.  He's just 22, he shouldn't be guaranteed first team anywhere, What's he got to lose by trying a season or two? Ryan Gauld is giving it a go at Lisbon, can't see how Ince could turn down such a rare opportunity, not to mention improving your game. If you do what you've always done you get the same. What harm is there in trying something new?

A once in a lifetime opportunity to try and break into one of the worlds most famous and biggest teams and to play in one of the worlds iconic stadiums with some great players, or settle for a relegation scrap in one of Britains least glamourous clubs and cities surrounded by Premiership cast offs and tail end career players. It's like a lottery winner choosing to stay on their council estate than move somewhere decent.

Exactly the sort of attitude which defines British international football I'm afraid. Fear and complacency.

westisbest wrote:Would Ince get in the Inter team?
 
If he thought he wouldn't, then choosing Hull, where he would play alot, isn't a bad decision.
 
If I was a footballer, I would want to play on a regular basis.
If that means playing for a weaker team, then so be it.
 
If he sits on the bench most of the season, that sure aint gonna help him progress.
Other players such as Rodwell & Sinclair have done that.
 
Wasting their career sitting on the bench, when they could be playing more often.
 
Again I dont know what players Inter have, if Ince could play on a regular basis.

You should be wanting to play for the best team available with the better players as you will learn more off them. Ince would learn more in a season warming the bench at Inter than he will in 5 seasons at Hull. (BTW there's no reason to think he wouldn't get in the Inter team, he's not a bad player)

Derbymanc wrote:

westisbest wrote:Would Ince get in the Inter team?
 
If he thought he wouldn't, then choosing Hull, where he would play alot, isn't a bad decision.
 
If I was a footballer, I would want to play on a regular basis.
If that means playing for a weaker team, then so be it.
 
If he sits on the bench most of the season, that sure aint gonna help him progress.
Other players such as Rodwell & Sinclair have done that.
 
Wasting their career sitting on the bench, when they could be playing more often.
 
Again I dont know what players Inter have, if Ince could play on a regular basis.

You should be wanting to play for the best team available with the better players as you will learn more off them. Ince would learn more in a season warming the bench at Inter than he will in 5 seasons at Hull. (BTW there's no reason to think he wouldn't get in the Inter team, he's not a bad player)

Yet a player like Sinclair gets slated for joining City to warm the bench.

Is he getting slated for it?

Signing for City and trying to break into the team is at least showing a bit of ambition, even though he's not been successful yet, joining Hull when you've had the opportunity to join Inter without even giving it a go is just nuts.

super_realist wrote:Is he getting slated for it?

Signing for City and trying to break into the team is at least showing a bit of ambition,  even though he's not been successful yet, joining Hull when you've had the opportunity to join Inter without even giving it a go is just nuts.

Some say he went for the money rather than wanting to play Football.

At least he was taking a step up in the team he was joining (even if he went out on loan to WBA in something of a sideways move from being at Swansea)

Moving from Blackpool to Hull is like moving from Morrison's to Tesco. Very slight upgrade, hardly reaching for the sky though. Sinclair could at least improve and thereby be granted a place in the City side.
I really can't see how playing in a deadbeat side like Hull can improve anyone, he might get better at kicking off after conceding yet another goal, and he might get better at putting his hands on his hips after another defeat, but I can't see how he'll become a better player playing for one of the leagues whipping boys.

  

super_realist wrote:At least he was taking a step up in the team he was joining (even if he went out on loan to WBA in something of a sideways move from being at Swansea)

Moving from Blackpool to Hull is like moving from Morrison's to Tesco. Very slight upgrade, hardly reaching for the sky though. Sinclair could at least improve and thereby be granted a place in the City side.
I really can't see how playing in a deadbeat side like Hull can improve anyone, he might get better at kicking off after conceding yet another goal, and he might get better at putting his hands on his hips after another defeat, but I can't see how he'll become a better player playing for one of the leagues whipping boys.

I don't know his motives, but Hull have spent some money and are obviously looking to be anything but whipping boys. I quite like a player who prefers to play Football, even at a smaller club (Phil Neville) than someone who is happy to warm a bench (Solskjaer).

I'd rather a player that tries and fails to make a step up than one that never tries.

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:At least he was taking a step up in the team he was joining (even if he went out on loan to WBA in something of a sideways move from being at Swansea)

Moving from Blackpool to Hull is like moving from Morrison's to Tesco. Very slight upgrade, hardly reaching for the sky though. Sinclair could at least improve and thereby be granted a place in the City side.
I really can't see how playing in a deadbeat side like Hull can improve anyone, he might get better at kicking off after conceding yet another goal, and he might get better at putting his hands on his hips after another defeat, but I can't see how he'll become a better player playing for one of the leagues whipping boys.

I don't know his motives, but Hull have spent some money and are obviously looking to be anything but whipping boys. I quite like a player who prefers to play Football, even at a smaller club (Phil Neville) than someone who is happy to warm a bench (Solskjaer).

 
Me to.
 
Have more respect for that type of player.
 
Were Hull the whipping boys of last season.
 
They certainly didn't finish bottom, being thrashed every game.

GSC wrote:I'd rather a player that tries and fails to make a step up than one that never tries.

So true, sadly British football is full of players who don't want to do that. THe thing is, it isn't even as if they fail, if it hasn't worked out after a couple of seasons, then there will be no shortage of such teams willing to take a gamble on them and pay them a fortune

Are these younger players like Ince expecting too much too soon? I mean, the guys only 22, what makes him think he deserves to start games, and does that expectation already sew the seed of complacency? Is being guaranteed a game even good for your career?

If he's likely to start every game at Hull, he has less incentive to truly try as hard as he would at Inter to retain or get a place in the first place, and if you don't have to try hard at something, how are you supposed to improve.

Lots of British players are pretty good, but perhaps it is this lack of challenge and incentive that stop them getting to the next stage they need to if they are actually going to be anything other than tabloid darlings and over-rated, over-paid average players.

Very shortsighted of Ince, he shouldn't be thinking "how often will I play" but "what can I learn".