Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Not had that much fun watching football for a while.

Robben taken the p*1ss out the spanish keeper and central defenders was literally hilarious.

[Diggers]

At least she actually uses a real putter.

[MustPuttBetter]

Gael, when would you say the influx of foreigners started and began to have a detrimental effect on the England team? I'm assuming we're looking at the premier league era? Because people come up with this excuse all the time but lest we forget we failed to qualify for 74 and 78 when there were few foreigners here. Or 94 when the premier league was in its infancy. What excuses can we come up with for those?

[SmithersJones]

Surely the number of teams like Belgium with a high proportion of their players playing for clubs outside their home country shows that there aren't too many foreigners in the PL, just not enough English players playing first team football at the highest level anywhere?

[Diggers]

I think it would obviously help if the player pool in the EPL was bigger but its a gamble for the big clubs to play younger English players.
Southampton and Liverpool have shown it can work though, often times the overseas players bought by the least EPL clubs are pretty ordinary anyway...until they go to a WC and look like world beaters that is.
We have had good talent from the England age group teams for a while, they just need to keep getting chances to play. Maybe more of them should look to try and play abroad, that would help.

[beninho]

The premier league is the be all and end all of all the clubs. apart from maybe 7/8 teams, the rest just aim for not being relegated. Because the fear of relegation or not being top 4 is so high, no clubs take a chance with young english players. But as the players are talented, they get decent pay packets, and do not want to jepordise these by moving abroad or going elsewhere for regular football.

I do not see how things will get any better though. The states regarding coaches in europe and in the Uk is pretty telling. I cant remember the exact figures though, but it seems we do not have the coaching infrastructure for the kids.

[Diggers]

The conundrum is how did we manage to win the UEFA Under 17 tournament in 2010 and 2014 with no young talent or coaching set up? I've seen a few age group matches and they play really good, technical football. The young talent goes to clubs early and clearly up to a point are well coached.
But of that 2010 side I think only Barkley is a Premiership regular, maybe can count Connor Wickham as well now. There is clearly a lack of opportunity for these guys to come through, look at Lallana, he hasn't just appeared on the scene, he's 26 and no big club was interested until Southampton had blooded him in the Premiership for a year.

[super_realist]

The EPL is outrageously over-rated. It's where players go to get paid the most.

[raycastleunited]

It's not just recently where we have had success at youth level. England won the U18 Euros in 1993, with a team that included Scholes, Campbell, Fowler, Gary Neville. Most of that squad had the opportunity to play in the Premiership, and those that were good enough did!

Clubs choose their teams based on ability, it's a pure meritocracy. What I would like to see is more English players going overseas to get the opportunity to play top flight football. The current wage structure means that young English players are better off sitting in the reserves of a big club, and even going on loan to a League 1 club. If they were truly motivated by a desire to play football and test themselves they would seek out opportunities in France, Holland etc, but English players appear so insular.

Hargreaves is a really good example of a player who had a different style of play because he played in Germany. He looked so at home in international football. It would be really beneficial if more of our players could get that experience, because premier league football is totally different to international football.

[Diggers]

I don't think its as simple as it being a meritocracy at all. You need experience if you are a kid however much talent that you have. If clubs can buy experience then that's what they go for, actually it may well tend to not always be the best choice.
I'm a Sunderland fan, we have had a stack of overseas players who don't achieve, but hey the manager bought them....or the technical director of whoever...so there is almost a feeling that they have to play them to justify the price tag. I give you Altidore as an example, I doubt you'll find a single Sunderland player who got we carried on playing him.
Re them going abroad, it could of course be the case that the leagues we would like to see them go to are not as welcoming to nurturing young overseas players as we are? They'd rather carry on bringing their own kids through.
Re the fact that we had success before in 93 and they got to play in the Premiership.....how many overseas players where there at clubs then compared to now? Significantly more Id say now.
I'm not saying its the only reason, but Premiership not giving kids the chance to flourish is definitely an issue. Southampton do it and it works, are we meant to believe they are the only club capable of finding young talent and giving it a chance?

[super_realist]

I really don't know why there is surprise, outrage, consternation, confusion, anger etc and the subsequent post-mortem from all these people who think they could do better re: England's exit from the World Cup.

What realistic non-jingoistic expectations could there really have been?

They played OK, had good possession but simply don't have world class players or a World Cup style of play.

Not sure what would have been expected for the team other than what they ended up with.
It is by definition "par".
England have been also-rans for decades, no reason why this year was any different.

[raycastleunited]

I would say that recent history has established par as reaching the quarter finals, or least the 2nd round. There was less media hype this time round, few people were claiming that England could / would win the World Cup, but arguably a par performance was still reaching the QF. First time the team has failed to progress from the group stage for 58 years... looks like a double bogey to me.

It's all ifs and buts, however my gut feel is that Eriksen, Venables, Hoddle would have steered this squad through the group.

[super_realist]

Well, that simply isn't true Ray, they've only made 50% quarter finals since 1950, and since 1966 they've only made 5/12 QF's, so if anything, par for England is getting out of the group.

Since the infamous 1990 Semi, they've been to precisely 2 quarters out of a possible 6. So it depends what you call recent history, but a 33% success rate of reaching the last 8 in the last 6 World Cups and the same 33% chance in the last 3 hardly represents reaching the QF as par. It is far more common for England NOT to reach a QF. Par would be getting out of the group.

It seems that the trend for England is actually diminishing and so should expectations.

[raycastleunited]

I don't think its as simple as it being a meritocracy at all. You need experience if you are a kid however much talent that you have. If clubs can buy experience then that's what they go for,

But that is meritocracy. Why pick an unknown youngster when you can buy a proven tried and trusted player? If a young player finds his opportunities at Sunderland limited, he should find another club and try and play at the highest level his talent / experience allows him instead of just sitting in the reserves. That might mean going to France for example to gain vital experience so that Sunderland then buy him back 2 years later for 3 times the price.

[raycastleunited]

Well, that simply isn't true Ray, they've only made 50% quarter finals since 1950, and since 1966 they've only made 5/12 QF's, so if anything, par for England is getting out of the group.

Since the infamous 1990 Semi, they've been to precisely 2 quarters out of a possible 6. So it depends what you call recent history, but a 33% success rate of reaching the last 8  in the last 6 World Cups and the same 33% chance in the last 3 hardly represents reaching the QF as par. It is far more common for England NOT to reach a QF. Par would be getting out of the group.

It seems that the trend for England is actually diminishing and so should expectations.

OK Super, I was thinking tournaments, ie Euros and WC, over the last 25 years. But I agree with you then that Par is getting out of the group. It's still a below par performance.

[super_realist]

Yes, and no.. It doesn't really work for the Euro's either, 3 QF's since 1988. 3 out of 7. Less than 50%

[Bob_the_Job]

I really don't know why there is surprise, outrage, consternation, confusion, anger etc and the subsequent post-mortem from all these people who think they could do better  re: England's exit from the World Cup.

What realistic non-jingoistic expectations could there really have been?

They played OK, had good possession but simply don't have world class players or a World Cup style of play.

Not sure what would have been expected for the team other than what they ended up with.
It is by definition "par".
England have been also-rans for decades, no reason why this year was any different.

Exactly.

England went into the tournament ranked 10th in the world and lost to the 9th and 7th ranked teams - why the huge surprise and over the top disappointment?  That'll be the media over hyping their chances and setting silly expectations then.

But why are England "only" ranked 10th? Ahh.. that's a much more weighty question.

[super_realist]

They are lucky to be ranked so high

[Diggers]

What OTT disappointment, I must be missing this? To be honest most people have a resigned acceptance. Of course you would rather stay in longer as it keeps everything more interesting but I don't know a single person who thought we would say reach the semis.
Basically we lost two games against good teams that on another day we could have won, there was nothing in either game. For a young side that has barely played together that's not actually that bad.

[super_realist]

The rabid post mortem on this very thread amongst others is testament to what many England fans are seeing as a crushing disappointment in this years World Cup.
They keep saying how if they'd done this, and done that and picked so and so and had X in charge they would have qualified, funny how though when they reach a QF they never say how they might have been fortunate or how so and so had a game far better than you'd expect or that the opposition played uncharacteristically poorly.

So I don't believe England have underachieved this year (South America is very hard for European teams, especially poor ones) and I don't think it matters what changes they make or who they pick, there's nothing to suggest they are anything less than tournament makeweight, just like GB/England etc are in most other sports.

[Diggers]

Rabid? What planet are you on? Its just a debate about what might improve England's chances in the future, I've seen more rabid debates on here about Poultrys choice of T-shirt.
Your view is that nothing will ever change, which strikes me as utterly bizarre to be honest. Spain could have said that and never won a tournament. Of course things can change, we do have young talent which I don't really see how anyone can deny. Unless of course you consider it better not to win youth tournaments rather than to win them?
Of course the bigger question is why you care after writing the world cup off after a game and professing to hate the sport.

[super_realist]

Diggers, I think making a comparison to Spain and England is rather absurd. For a start they actually produce world class players.
Things can change of course, but nothing ever seems to for England.

The "we have young talent" is also a non argument. What country doesn't have promising young talent? Every country in the world hoping to improve can make that claim. England's don't appear any better than anyone elses, trouble is that England fans don't seem to take that into consideration.
How dare other countries have "young talent", furthermore, England have never really suffered from a lack of talent, in the same way that many other top 16 tournament teams have, just a lack of true top class and actual tournament acumen.

[Diggers]

Players who did nothing internationally until 6-8 years ago, players and a country always knows as the biggest underachievers in world football.
France...exactly the same.
Anyway, as I said, why do you care? I hate horse racing, you wont catch me having a debate about it.

[super_realist]

Players who did nothing internationally until 6-8 years ago, players and a country always knows as the biggest underachievers in world football.
France...exactly the same.
Anyway, as I said, why do you care? I hate horse racing, you wont catch me having a debate about it.

It's interesting and fun to debate because of the delusional fans.

Spain incidentally have a better Euro's record and World Cup record than England in the last 20 years. SO not like they came out of nowhere.

[westisbest]

What OTT disappointment, I must be missing this? To be honest most people have a resigned acceptance. Of course you would rather stay in longer as it keeps everything more interesting but I don't know a single person who thought we would say reach the semis.[/b]Basically we lost two games against good teams that on another day we could have won, there was nothing in either game. For a young side that has barely played together that's not actually that bad.

Exactly, neither have I.

Alot of people are not surprised that they are out at this stage.

[Diggers]

OK so we are rewriting history. Everyone saw that Spain would go onto win 3 major tournaments in a row after never winning one before. They didn't improve at all. We all expected it to happen.
Nobody as far as I can see is delusional on here. Everyone thinks England can/should do better and people talk about how it might happen. Personally I'm fairly optimistic about the future of the younger players but it may well not turn out that way.
As not a single person on this board had any great expectations for this world cup I'm not really sure what you are banging on about really, other than indulging in a bit of WUMMERY which is fine, but its not exactly subtle is it.

[beninho]

Spain have never been a production line of world class players. Barcelona though have put a lot in to youth development, and Spain has seen the benefit aswell as Barcelona. Though it seems even the famed La Masia is being filled with kids from all over the world now.

[super_realist]

Diggers, I've not really done much except expose that England traditionally AREN'T a QF team, as the common misapprehension goes, that they've no right to get much further than group stages, that South America is always tough for European Teams, especially the poor ones and that England severely lack tournament acumen and World Class players.

If you can find anything untrue, or even "wumming" about that then I'd say it's more paranoia and denial than anything scurrilous.

[Diggers]

Really, well as a bloke who professes to hate football why debate it on here and also make a special effort to go on the football board to do the same unless you are on a wind up?
Is this a rabid debate...no. Are there lots of delusional fans on this thread....no.
I take that even though you hate the game and know that England are a very average side that you still watched both the games? Otherwise hard to take a view on how players performed really.
So either you watch a sport you hate or you talk in detail about a sport you don't watch? Which is it?

[beninho]

the last 7 world cups, England have had 1 semi final, 3 Q/F 2 last 16 and one non qualification. So England are a quarter final team really. And it has been a disappointing tournament. But I do not think any England fan is overly surprised. But nothing wrong with being disappointed.

[westisbest]

the last 7 world cups, England have had 1 semi final, 3 Q/F 2 last 16 and one non qualification. So England are a quarter final team really. And it has been a disappointing tournament. But I do not think any England fan is overly surprised. But nothing wrong with being disappointed.

Think you have hit the nail on the head there.
Would agree with that.

[Diggers]

I don't think its as simple as it being a meritocracy at all. You need experience if you are a kid however much talent that you have. If clubs can buy experience then that's what they go for,

But that is meritocracy. Why pick an unknown youngster when you can buy a proven tried and trusted player? If a young player finds his opportunities at Sunderland limited, he should find another club and try and play at the highest level his talent / experience allows him instead of just sitting in the reserves. That might mean going to France for example to gain vital experience so that Sunderland then buy him back 2 years later for 3 times the price.

Are the players bought really proven, tried and tested? Or does the manager have a budget that they are going to spend and end up taking a lot of punts? Also those youngsters will be on contracts, they can't just decide to leave because they aren't getting picked.

[Bob_the_Job]

What OTT disappointment, I must be missing this? To be honest most people have a resigned acceptance. Of course you would rather stay in longer as it keeps everything more interesting but I don't know a single person who thought we would say reach the semis.
Basically we lost two games against good teams that on another day we could have won, there was nothing in either game. For a young side that has barely played together that's not actually that bad.

Sorry Diggers I should have explained. I was at a black tie dinner in London on Thursday night and when the result came through there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth. In addition, some of the stuff in the press about "should RH resign" is OTT my opinion, if as we both agree, England got beaten by two better teams.

[kwinigolfer]

Disappointing thing to me was the manner of defeat, basically losing to three goals from world-class goalscorers who Hodgson and the players know inside out.

At the other end, apart from Sturridge's very well taken goal, no threat from him, Welbeck or Sterling, not much pressing, and still less effective tracking back.

Very disappointing that Lallana wasn't given a starting role; he looked the only sub up to the task when he came on. Barkley a great talent for the future but not yet ready for prime time, Wilshere not match-fit and a waste of a plane ticket.

Would love to have had the option of Defoe from the bench.

[Diggers]

Hindsight is a great thing Kwini. The simple fact is that Lallana was very poor in the friendlies leading up to the finals, Barkley looked a lot sharper. I thought Barkley looked good when he came on against Italy, Lallana similar in his own cameo. But they are very different players and I could actually see them playing well in the same side and I'd like to see that.
Be interesting to see if Barkley kicks on this year for Everton (hopefully he will stay there) and how Lallana does as a smaller fish in a big pond with a big price tag around his neck.
I thought Sturridge played well against Uruguay in spells, he has a fantastic first touch and offered plenty for me.
Like I say I thought they played pretty well in both games, main weaknesses being poor centre backs and the fact that Stevie G isn't a great defensive midfielder.

[raycastleunited]

Disappointing thing to me was the manner of defeat, basically losing to three goals from world-class goalscorers who Hodgson and the players know inside out.

Yes absolutely. Also failing to mark Pirlo all game when Roy and the boys knew all about him from 2012. Lesson learnt? No.

At the other end, apart from Sturridge's very well taken goal, no threat from him, Welbeck or Sterling, not much pressing, and still less effective tracking back.

Yes. No tracking back - leaving Baines, Johnson horribly exposed.

Very disappointing that Lallana wasn't given a starting role; he looked the only sub up to the task when he came on. Barkley a great talent for the future but not yet ready for prime time, Wilshere not match-fit and a waste of a plane ticket.

Yes. Shame that Ox got injured in final warm up game... probably would have started on left.

Would love to have had the option of Defoe from the bench.

Yes... although Defoe did that himself by choosing to go to Canada and not a proper competitive league.

[Diggers]

I'm struggling to see what Defoe offers that Sturridge doesn't to be honest. Id have been far happier if Walcott and JJ Rodriguez had been fit.
Agree that Ox was a big miss though, probably looking our most in form midfielder, does seem a bit injury prone which is a shame.

[kwinigolfer]

Don't you think the centre-backs (both of whom would have been my first choice so no hindsight there!) were exposed with little defensive help from midfield plus Johnson and Baines (yup, would've picked them too!) getting caught out way too often?
 
Thought Henderson did OK by the way.
Yeah, didn't see the friendlies but Lallana has looked good in other chances for England. No complaints with playing Sturridge, but Lambert wasn't ever likely to be an effective Plan B unless he started.
 
Anyway, Woy has a few things to get sorted for Euro qualifying which is just around the corner.

PS: I know most of their players aren't playing MSL but the fact is the US is likely to qualify for last 16 and will be playing when are boys are taking their hols in Skegness.

[raycastleunited]

Switching sports, but still on the theme of disappointing England.... what the hell is going on at Headingly?

Looks like England have thrown away a winning position. Fair play to Mathews for a great innings, but allowing the tail to score almost 200 runs usually means poor bowling. Target of 350 is possible but highly unlikely... Cook needs a captain's innings.

[Diggers]

To be honest, the goals they conceded were more down to poor centre back play than lack of help, chronic ball watching. But of course better defensive cover would help...but if you play an attacking side you get left open every now and again, it happens.
I think you are being harsh on Wellbeck, I think he covered back really well, especially in the Uruguay game and it was no surprise that Johnson had more cover when he was on the right and Baines more cover when he was on the left.
I think Lambert was a great sub potentially...but not when you take off all your wide players before bringing him on. That made no sense.

[raycastleunited]

Kwini,

Woy doesn't have to sort anything out for Euro 2016 qualifying. Have you seen England's group?

Switzerland, Slovenia, Estonia, Lithuania and San Marino... and we only need to finish 2nd to qualify. Doesn't matter who he picks and what formation they play, qualification is dead cert

[Diggers]

Switching sports, but still on the theme of disappointing England.... what the hell is going on at Headingly?

Looks like England have thrown away a winning position. Fair play to Mathews for a great innings, but allowing the tail to score almost 200 runs usually means poor bowling. Target of 350 is possible but highly unlikely... Cook needs a captain's innings.

He definitely needs a big knock Ray or the knives will be out. The bowling doesn't look convincing for England, could be a long wait for another decent spinner methinks.

[kwinigolfer]

Agreed ray, but they've made heavy weather of minnows before . . . .

[super_realist]

the last 7 world cups, England have had 1 semi final, 3 Q/F 2 last 16 and one non qualification. So England are a quarter final team really. And it has been a disappointing tournament. But I do not think any England fan is overly surprised. But nothing wrong with being disappointed.

Or you could say that in the last 7 world cups, England have failed to qualify once, made the last 16 twice and failed to get out the group once, so that paints a slightly different and less optimistic picture. So 4 times out of 7 they HAVEN'T got to a QF.
Take out 1990's anomaly and it looks even worse.

[beninho]

1990 isnt really an anomaly though. If anything the anomaly is 1994 when we didnt qualify, because they usually do. And that makes it look better. But stats can be exaggerated whatever way you want. But all countries have cycles of players. Brazil seem to be the only one that always produce. I do think we will win against the ricans though.

[kwinigolfer]

Two extraneous questions:
1).Who will be England's next Captain?

2).Haven't seen Howard Webb at all - has he reffed any games yet?

[beninho]

Think he had one game. Not sure what one though. Next England captain will be Rooney or Hart. Cannot see anyone else.

[kwinigolfer]

Can't see Rooney being an effective captain; don't really think Gerrard is a good fit for England either - too much a doer and not enough of a leader except by example. When that example is not working he tries to do too much, to the detriment of everyone. Imagine Rooney would be the same.

Thanks for the Howie update.

[Diggers]

I don't like a keeper as skipper so it would be Rooney for me. Can't think of a single outfield alternative really, maybe Cahill who I suspect will remain a fixture.

[super_realist]

1990 isnt really an anomaly though. If anything the anomaly is 1994 when we didnt qualify, because they usually do. And that makes it look better. But stats can be exaggerated whatever way you want. But all countries have cycles of players. Brazil seem to be the only one that always produce. I do think we will win against the ricans though.

They've failed to qualify more often than they've made a semi final.

As for the Captain, does it actually make any difference? It seems to be more of an affectation like a golf glove. Part of the furniture, but does anyone really need one?

[kwinigolfer]

Totally new team vs Costa Rica, only Cahill and Sturridge survive; only Lambert (and Ox - why did they pretend he was fit?) of the outfield players and Forster don't get a start.

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