England AI's and EPS 2014

Early I know but I thought I'd start a thread to judge people's hopes/expectations on the Autumn Internationals this year.

This'll be the final non-tournament series for Lancaster to test the squad out in before 2015's 6N's and then subsequent pre RWC warm up games. I expect him to limit the rotation to as few positions as possible (injuries allowing) and look to get his first XV and bench set in stone ready for an extended run out in the 6N's.

Just a reminder we'll be playing:

ENGLAND 2014 AI SCHEDULE

   8 November: England v New Zealand
   15 November: England v South Africa
   22 November: England v Samoa
   29 November: England v Australia

So that'll be a real tough run of games for this side, starting with the first and second teams in the world, moving on to the 9th placed team and finishing with the third.

ENGLAND 2014/15 EPS

I'll fill in the EPS once it's announced by Lancaster.

For me it has to be 3 out of four wins.

I want us to beat NZ, Samoa and Australia. But I think the level of effort required to beat NZ will leave us unable to match South Africa.

England hasn't beaten SA since 2006, odds are you will win this one.

How does that work then? I think SA will start favourites won't they?

Doubt that, England should be.

Well I suppose that it depends on teams and form in the four nations but I know who I'd put my money on at the moment.

Doesn't get much tougher than that schedule, isn't an easy game amongst them.

I must say that I'd like to see one of the fixtures played away from Twickenham. It might be good to see the Samoa game played somewhere like The Etihad in Manchester, St James Park Newcastle or Elland Road in Leeds.

In terms of preparation for the RWC, you can't get better. England will be aiming for at least 3/4 in that pool to ensure they go through but it won't be easy. The teams they face this autumn are a step up so get 3/4 from that would be a huge confidence boost. Doesn't mean it will happen though.

I can relate to BB's sarcasm but in a way the mentality it doesn't matter what has happened in the past but what happens in the game at hand is true. That said 2/4 is a realistic goal but obviously England will be pushing for 3 to get that all important confidence leading into the RWC year with no June internationals.

Based on the Nz tour assuming fitness and form, I'd like to see:

1 Corbeseiro
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 Lawes
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola
9 Care
10 Farrell
11 Watson
12 Twelvetrees or Burrell 
13 Tuilagi
14 Yarde
15 Brown

Subs: Hartley, Lauchbury, Morgan, Twelvetrees or Burrell, Nowell, Cole +1 other prop, Dickson.

englandglory4ever wrote:Based on the Nz tour assuming fitness and form, I'd like to see:

1 Corbeseiro / Marler
2 Webber Hartley
3 WilsonCole
4 Lawes
5 Parling Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola / Morgan
9 Care
10 Farrell
11 Watson
12 Twelvetrees or Burrell 
13 Tuilagi
14 Yarde
15 Brown

Subs: Hartley, Lauchbury, Morgan, Twelvetrees or Burrell, Nowell, Cole +1 other prop, Dickson.

Marler has done enough to be in there for 1st choice and will continue to improve.

Hartley and Cole give you the breakdown work we lacked in NZ and Hartley is just a top class player when fit and firing...as he showed in the 6n.

Parling had a good tour ill not deny that but ill judge on his performances this season. Launchbury has been quality and just looked fatigued in NZ. He'll be back roaring next season.

Ill also be looking for potential back rowers this season.

Our 8's are class, but i do wonder if the 6.5 on each flank could be improved with a fetching 7 and a brute of a 6?
Im still deciding on that one....

Wade has to have his chance this AI. We need to know if he's too small, weak defensively and if he translate his attacking to the international stage.

Cumbrian wrote:Doesn't get much tougher than that schedule, isn't an easy game amongst them.  

I must say that I'd like to see one of the fixtures played away from Twickenham.  It might be good to see the Samoa game played somewhere like The Etihad in Manchester, St James Park Newcastle or Elland Road in Leeds.

I thought that there had been talk of moving a game away from Twickenham in the run up to the RWC, it'll be a shame if it doesn't happen.

I'd go for Australia personaly, they're arguably the weakest of the top three but still a big name crowd puller.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Based on the Nz tour assuming fitness and form, I'd like to see:

1 Corbeseiro / Marler
2 Webber Hartley
3 WilsonCole
4 Lawes
5 Parling Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola / Morgan
9 Care
10 Farrell
11 Watson
12 Twelvetrees or Burrell 
13 Tuilagi
14 Yarde
15 Brown

Subs: Hartley, Lauchbury, Morgan, Twelvetrees or Burrell, Nowell, Cole +1 other prop, Dickson.

Marler has done enough to be in there for 1st choice and will continue to improve.

Hartley and Cole give you the breakdown work we lacked in NZ and Hartley is just a top class player when fit and firing...as he showed in the 6n.

Parling had a good tour ill not deny that but ill judge on his performances this season. Launchbury has been quality and just looked fatigued in NZ. He'll be back roaring next season.

Ill also be looking for potential back rowers this season.

Our 8's are class, but i do wonder if the 6.5 on each flank could be improved with a fetching 7 and a brute of a 6?
Im still deciding on that one....

Agree with your team their Geordie, but I'd start Webber and Corbs against SA. Not just horses for courses but I think those two will bring more physicality to the side against the big South Africans. Marler and Hartley can get around the park more against the AB's.

Biltong wrote:England hasn't beaten SA since 2006, odds are you will win this one.

Hhhmmm not sure about that Biltong... you guys always bully us in these games and we're too proper to allow ourselves to fight back. It would be unseemly.

Yappy Corbs selection all depends on how over his injuries he is.

I hope he is over them as he does probably go to first choice LH even despite Marlers excellent performances.

Cumbrian wrote:Doesn't get much tougher than that schedule, isn't an easy game amongst them.  

I must say that I'd like to see one of the fixtures played away from Twickenham.  It might be good to see the Samoa game played somewhere like The Etihad in Manchester, St James Park Newcastle or Elland Road in Leeds.

Actually 4 home games in a row seems pretty good though you are playing the top teams.
Also I don't see why you can't consider Samoa an easy game. Sure you should be respectful but realistically your B team should beat them. If not I don't see how you can consider yourself a top top team.

With NZ up first I can't see any way we will win it. It's the equivalent of the 1st test in the summer. I 'expect' (or hope) to win against Samoa and Australia. Possibly against the Springboks but that would be my hope for the 3rd win.

Yes we should aim to easily beat Samoa. But I think Cumbrian more meant that physicaly they were still going to work us hard.

Beating South Africa would be a real achievement. Beating New Zeland is boring now that we've done it once in the last decade.

We aren't due until 2023.

Samoa don't have as much time together as they do in the World Cup so won't be as strong as they can be.

  8 November: England v New Zealand
  15 November: England v South Africa
  22 November: England v Samoa
  29 November: England v Australia

AB’s to run us into the ground.
SA to pound us into the ground.
Samoa to break any players that are lucky to escape pummelling above.
Aus to take the p.

Don’t see why we can’t fit a few more games in-between the Summer tour and the AIs tbh. It’s not as if there's too much rugby these days.

Just as well we have 2 A-sides.

nganboy wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Doesn't get much tougher than that schedule, isn't an easy game amongst them.  

I must say that I'd like to see one of the fixtures played away from Twickenham.  It might be good to see the Samoa game played somewhere like The Etihad in Manchester, St James Park Newcastle or Elland Road in Leeds.

Actually 4 home games in a row seems pretty good though you are playing the top teams.
Also I don't see why you can't consider Samoa an easy game. Sure you should be respectful but realistically your B team should beat them. If not I don't see how you can consider yourself a top top team.

Yes, with Samoa I was more thinking from a physical perspective.  After a ' throw the kitchen sink at them' game game against NZ and a forward war against the Boks,  a bruising encounter against Samoa isn't something to take lightly.  For what it's worth, I think the most important game is the one against Australia, we can lay down a statement against them. If we lose, things will get really nervy. If half our team are in plaster-casts from playing the Samoan chiropractors, well, it wouldn't be ideal.

Call NZ game off as it's boring now and won't sell tickets.
Give your A team the SA game to teach them some harsh lessons that will stand to them in time
Beat the bejaysus out of the poor Samoans with your heaviest hitting side.
And allow the Royal School of Ballet students to take on the Aussies - as we all know forwards are never needed when the Aussies want to play real rugby...just dancers.

Biltong wrote:England hasn't beaten SA since 2006, odds are you will win this one.

It's a match I'm really looking forward to as it's the massive physical test I think we need. Surprised you're placing England favourites though Bilt. Home advantage will count for a lot in what should be a close game but SA are building strongly.

As for the EPS

Loose head - Marler, Corbisiero, Mako Vunipola

Hooker - Webber, Hartley, T Youngs

Tight Head - Wilson, Brookes and Cole if he can prove fitness. Sinckler or Thomas most likely if he can't. If Scott Wilson could displace Brookes at Falcons after a full pre-season he could be an outside shot.

Second row - Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Slater - I feel Slater has leap frogged Attwood.

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Croft

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Care, B Youngs, Dickson - Rate all three highly but would love Robson to get a run for Gloucester

Fly half - Farrell + two of Ford, Burns and Cipriani - Early season form will be vital

Centre - Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Eastmond

Wing - 4 out off Yarde, Ashton, Nowell, Wade, May and Watson - Early season performances will be very interesting!

Full back - Brown, Foden - Personally I'd like to see 4 wings and 2 full backs but expect Lancaster will want to keep Goode and go for 3 of each. It will be a shame if Pennell doesn't get another look in.

I doubt very much that cole will be available
Don't think he is due back till october

king_carlos wrote:

Biltong wrote:England hasn't beaten SA since 2006, odds are you will win this one.

It's a match I'm really looking forward to as it's the massive physical test I think we need. Surprised you're placing England favourites though Bilt. Home advantage will count for a lot in what should be a close game but SA are building strongly.

As for the EPS

Loose head - Marler, Corbisiero, Mako Vunipola

Hooker - Webber, Hartley, T Youngs

Tight Head - Wilson, Brookes and Cole if he can prove fitness. Sinckler or Thomas most likely if he can't. If Scott Wilson could displace Brookes at Falcons after a full pre-season he could be an outside shot.

Second row - Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Slater - I feel Slater has leap frogged Attwood.

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Croft

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Care, B Youngs, Dickson - Rate all three highly but would love Robson to get a run for Gloucester

Fly half - Farrell + two of Ford, Burns and Cipriani - Early season form will be vital

Centre - Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Eastmond

Wing -  4 out off Yarde, Ashton, Nowell, Wade, May and Watson - Early season performances will be very interesting!

Full back - Brown, Foden - Personally I'd like to see 4 wings and 2 full backs but expect Lancaster will want to keep Goode and go for 3 of each. It will be a shame if Pennell doesn't get another look in.

Nice post king_carlos.

I pretty much agree with all those selections, especially about young Robson at Gloucester. Attwood disappointed me this tour. I thought he was quiet against Crusaders and his substitution in the 3rd didn't equate to anything. He's got all the physical attributes to dominate the opposition, but he doesn't use it. Slater deserved a spot in one of the test day 23.

Matt Mullan impressed me, and proved that behind Marler and Corbs we've got another very capable scrummaging LH.

Brookes really took his chance. I didn't give him a hope of staring in a test when he first flew out, but he ended up in the matchday 23 and clocking a fine performance. Thomas did well too though.

I don't know if Croft will be around the AI squad to be honest. I think it may be too soon. I'd rather see someone like Fearns, Fraser, Kvesic, or Garvey there.

I dont think Croft is the right type. hes too lightweight.

Many saying Wood is not physical enough for 6...then by god Croft certainly isnt.

Yep, I agree. England's backrow has sort of evolved since Croft's last England game. Wood, Robshaw, and to an extent Morgipola very much rely on each other to carry out specific tasks, and because of that, function as a unit. Given Croft's natural game isn't really the same as Wood's, I think it would disrupt the equilibrium we've become settled on.

Could always play Wood at 8....  

Agreed that it isn't entirely clear how Croft fits in. The most physical option at 6 is probably Haskell. I thought his performances at the end of the season for Wasps, and in the 1st Test against NZ, were outstanding. Whilst Wood is probably first choice, I think there is a real choice at 6 these days, and Haskell and Croft offer entirely different things.

Very different FeS. Wood is almost the middle ground between Haskell and Croft. I certainly think that there will be times in the future when Haskell's skill set is required more so than Wood's, against Samoa and SA for example. I hope Haskell is given the chance when that is the case. 

My takeaway from the summer tour is that Wood needs to become a better carrying option. He's quick in the wide channels, but how often do we actually see him get his hands on the ball? Morgipola, Robshaw, and Hartley could really do with sharing the load a little more. Aside from that, Wood is a spectacular defender and disruptor. Sure he doesn't knock people back, but he shackles them and allows time and space for others to come in an compete for the ball. It's almost a less obvious Lydiate-Warburton relationship, where the blind side presents the opportunities to jackal. I just think that Wood needs to focus on a more complete game now, because England are getting better and better, so faults become more glaring.

I completely understand peoples reservations about Croft given how we've done with an abrasive blindside.

However to answer the question of what does he add to the pack? Pace is the answer.

If we want to play a quick paced expansive game then we need to improve our support play. Many of us have said time and again that we need to vastly increase our ability to finish chances in attack once we've stretched the defence and Croft adds a backrow player who can do that. Too often when we are trying to finish chances our forwards either look like an extra pair of hands getting in the way. Or even more frustratingly search for contact when they don't need to.

I'm not saying Croft is the only answer to that problem but trying some more pace in the pack wouldn't hurt to my eyes.

Plus he could add an excellent cover defender, great line-out work (in attack and defence) plus much better breakdown work than many want to give him credit for.

It's a compliment to Woods workrate that making a tackle or two less than him doesn't mean that player isn't pulling their weight in defence!

bluestonevedder wrote:My takeaway from the summer tour is that Wood needs to become a better carrying option. He's quick in the wide channels, but how often do we actually see him get his hands on the ball? Morgipola, Robshaw, and Hartley could really do with sharing the load a little more. Aside from that, Wood is a spectacular defender and disruptor. Sure he doesn't knock people back, but he shackles them and allows time and space for others to come in an compete for the ball. It's almost a less obvious Lydiate-Warburton relationship, where the blind side presents the opportunities to jackal. I just think that Wood needs to focus on a more complete game now, because England are getting better and better, so faults become more glaring.

 Whilst that has made me chuckle at the end of a long day. Can we please stop combining players names as short hand! It's starting to make them sound like a team of strange crime fighting boy bands.   

Dont you like those combinations Carlos...

Carrell (Care & Farrell)
Woodshaw
Parlawes
HartMarlson
Tuitrees

:-)

Ease up Abdickingcarlos... don't get excited.