Uncle Toni doesn't like Kyrgios's style

First topic message reminder :

Uncle Toni being graceful as usual.

http://news.tennistonic.com/tennis-news/?nid=4533&/Toni-Nadal-criticizes-Kyrgios-style!

legendkillarV2 wrote:Fognini gives me hope.

Reminds me of Nastase a bit.

Enjoys and plays with a smile.

Yeah even though his less happier times on court at Wimbledon cost him a packet  two huge fines... one for threatening the umpire the other for racket abuse... well done FOGI 

Bit much to call any player or coach " evil ". I'm not a huge Toni fan but still... And a massive stretch to come to that conclusion about Rafa. Pretty insane comments

legendkillarV2 wrote:Fognini gives me hope.

Reminds me of Nastase a bit.

Enjoys and plays with a smile.

Yep the boy certainly knows how to smile.. even when he pays out massive fines for threatening the umpire and racket abuse
but he will earn it back with thisww.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2014/06/27/Fognini-British-Cosmopolitan-Cancer-Research-UK.aspx

Haddie-nuff wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Fognini gives me hope.

Reminds me of Nastase a bit.

Enjoys and plays with a smile.

Yep the boy certainly knows how to smile.. even when he pays out massive fines for threatening the umpire and racket abuse
but he will earn it back with thisww.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2014/06/27/Fognini-British-Cosmopolitan-Cancer-Research-UK.aspx

He is a joy to watch and I must admit I couldn't believe my ears when he asked Layhani to come with him and don't be scared!   

lk  Like you say he is another Nastasi.. love him or hate him but you cant ignore him he is
such a character... Im sure he has the ability to win anything if he only had the mindset but hey ho... we need them on court.. breaks up the monotony of 135km serves

Big servers dominating grass is a thing of the past.

Nowadays you need a solid serve and something to back it up. Something most big hitters lack.

The game needs more personalities.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Big servers dominating grass is a thing of the past.

Nowadays you need a solid serve and something to back it up. Something most big hitters lack.

The game needs more personalities.

I couldn't agree with you more   This is why I like Grigor.. he has an all round game, a good serve, agility, skill, not to mention grace and good humour. He has a great skill and ability.

legendkillarV2 wrote:All people think of when they think of 90's tennis is Sampras and Goran. Me I think of the 80's. That was when grass tennis was great.

+1

sirfredperry wrote:strange tactics - such as trying to win a match with big serves and lightning ground strokes

LOL

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa happens to be the tennis player I most admire.

Admire?

summerblues wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa happens to be the tennis player I most admire.

Admire?

Yes? ADMIRE do you have a problem wih that ??

Haddie-nuff wrote:Yes? ADMIRE  do you have a problem wih that ??

More being intrigued than anything else.  Not being a native English speaker I may perceive the word admire incorrectly but I tend to associate it with having a positive view of the person as a human being, beyond just the context of tennis.

If so, that is very different with how I follow tennis.  Federer is by far my favorite tennis player but I could at most say that I admire his tennis.  I would not say that I particularly "admire him".  Not that I necessarily have bad opinion of him, I just do not care one way or another.

Also, I do not think we really have enough info about players to know whether they are admirable, and have never noticed any special info about Nadal that would suggest to me he is admirable more than any of a number of other players.

...and on a separate note, it is nice to have more and more people in the American time zone here.  Hopefully it will be less lonely during the USO night matches than in the past.

I thought the fast serving was hilarious, and I mean the time between points.

Credit to Nadal that he played to the speed of the server...... just this once. Uncle T will not have been pleased.

summerblues wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Yes? ADMIRE  do you have a problem wih that ??

More being intrigued than anything else.  Not being a native English speaker I may perceive the word admire incorrectly but I tend to associate it with having a positive view of the person as a human being, beyond just the context of tennis.

If so, that is very different with how I follow tennis.  Federer is by far my favorite tennis player but I could at most say that I admire his tennis.  I would not say that I particularly "admire him".  Not that I necessarily have bad opinion of him, I just do not care one way or another.

Also, I do not think we really have enough info about players to know whether they are admirable, and have never noticed any special info about Nadal that would suggest to me he is admirable more than any of a number of other players.

I have had the chance to study the Spanish people at first hand and are well aware of the traits .. yes I do admire Rafa because in all the years I have followed his career (very closely) I think I have been able to form an opinion of him as a person and by all the reports I have read about him, his personal life and his family, I have formed this opinion.  I do also admire Rafa's mental strength as  in any person, not just as a tennis player, he has an admirable approach to life and  to the sport .  There are many people I admire in life but I dont  necessarily have to know them. Are you suggesting you only admire people you know personally...... strange

SB, I would say that I admire Rafa as well, both as a player and a person. For the former, it is the fight, the spirit, the never say die attitude. My previous favourite was Boris. Very different in so many ways, but not in the way that he always gave it everything.

Quite apart from the tennis, I also admire Rafa the person. I know people have all sorts of issues with his general OCDness (to be honest, I yell at the television for him to get on with it sometimes as well), but how many players can you name who would still stop to sign autographs when walking off the court after a loss when the crowd have been screaming for their opponent ? I can't think of a time when Rafa didn't stop to sign however hurtful the loss (e.g. Soderling at RG 2009, Rosol at Wimbledon 2012 and with Kyrgios the other day). If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same......

I admire Rafa for his determination and fortitude, he has overcome many steep obstacles. I also admire his grace in victory, more than I do Federer and Djokovic in that respect.

I have the opposite view of what I perceive as his general dishonesty and I hate his incessant gamesmanship and self-serving attitude off court (eg his appalling ideas when on the players Council to benefit himself). These latter ones, alongside the views I have of his Uncle lead me to have dark thoughts about his recoveries sometimes.

BB, I'm sure all players have their faults, but fans tend to view them through the prism of their own prejudices. What you see as dishonesty, I see as OCD and I don't suppose anything anyone says will change either of our opinions.

AFCWomble42 wrote:BB, I'm sure all players have their faults, but fans tend to view them through the prism of their own prejudices. What you see as dishonesty, I see as OCD and I don't suppose anything anyone says will change either of our opinions.

AFC you are nearer to my own opinions... I have never thought Rafa to be "perfecto" as some would believe I do.. I too yell at him for taking so long..I too get irritated by his OCD.. but never have I thought of him cheating deliberately... I seriously am of the belief he goes so deep inside of himself mentally on court that he is not consciously aware that he is breaking any rules... he has admitted he takes too long. Ive quoted his mother on this forum on numerous occasions when she says she does not recognise her son when he is on court... a different Rafa appears as soon as he takes of that bandana at the end of every match. His mindset is such that it is not that he will win at any cost ... it is that he will not lose at any cost.... but when he does he does so graciously. Yes I will admit I admire him as a man, as a person, as a member of the human race... then as a tennis player.. and believe me there are not many people I can say that about... If I were only half the person he is I would be proud of myself.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Are you suggesting you only admire people you know personally...... strange

No, not quite as strong as that.  But I do find it harder to admire people I do not know.  You see only glimpses of them - typically through the prism of the media - so it is much harder to tell if they are admirable than about people I know first hand.

And then specifically in Nadal's case I find it hard to see any evidence he is particularly more admirable than most players around him.  I imagine he has his pluses and minuses, but from what I can tell they do not seem to be stacking up much more favorably than for others.  And, given that we only get to see glimpses of the players' true selves, they would have to be stacking up rather particularly positively before I would view him (or any other player) as particularly admirable.

The way I see it, everything else being equal, a more talented person will be more successful than a less talented one.  A harder working one than a lazier one.  And a more crooked one than an honest one.  So, I would expect to see plenty of hard working talented cheats near the top.  And Nadal strikes me as fitting the bill rather well.

Well they do say there is a fine line that divides a realist from a cynic.....  

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well they do say there is a fine line that divides a realist from a cynic.....  

Hehe, perhaps so.

So I assume that in your view, a person who thinks that Rafa's time wasting is due to OCD and who has "never thought of him cheating deliberately" is closer to a realist?

Anyway, I will leave this facet of my musings about your admiration of Rafa here, and will in my next post turn to the other - less contentious - one.

I will leave honest or cheating Rafa behind for now, and look at another facet of us admiring players.

From what HN says, I suspect that rooting for Rafa and having high opinion of him go sort of hand-in-hand with her (though I could be wrong).

In my case, I typically do not give much thought as to why I root for player X rather than player Y - it just happens so.  Nevertheless, why is it that I would support a certain player?  At the end of the day, they are all strangers to me.

Going through a list of the players I like now and I used to like in the past, I think that the common denominator is likely their game rather anything about players themselves.  By and large I seem to be rooting for fairly aggressive players, typically with good touch around the net.  With very few exceptions they play SHBH and more often than not they do not bend elbow much on the FH, etc...

My three all time favorites have been McEnroe, Edberg and Federer.  While Edberg and Federer are generally considered good sports and reasonably decent guys, Mac was a big time brat, but it did not bother me in the least.  I no longer really follow women's tennis but the last player I had any interest in was Henin - a player with somewhat dubious reputation as far as fair play goes, but playing the style of tennis that I enjoy.

But I suspect that I am in the minority on this one.  I imagine that more often than not, people end up rooting for someone they find likeable, that they want to feel some sort of association on human level rather than just watching tennis.

So I wonder, what do others have to say?

I have them in 2 groups, love and like:

I loved: Lendl, Edberg, Wilander, Goran, Pete, love in a sense I could not wait to see them play, and cause at their time we did not have access to their bedroom/bathroom activity information saturation, I can say I admired them as personalities.

I like: Fed for his magic, Nadal for his warrior spirit, Andy for being unstable, but finally with a W. Like also styles of Dimi, Dolgo, Delpo, ice cold coolness of Raonic.

While they have their flows and I don't admire them or care for anyone of them in personal sense, i.e like fans who defend their player or even their family/gf/etc, I don't care much about their lives. Fed needs a slap for a lot of his arrogance, silly clothes, Nadal has done a lot of dodgy things, Murray is mostly immature etc.

I don't analyze every tennis news about players I like and neither do I care what they do once the tournament has finished.

Agree that many fans create a virtual human level relation with their sports person, and then look silly in the Forums defending them, like they are a family member of them. They need to grow up.
Should be the opposite, we should discuss their game seriously, and joke about their personalities and private life and not vice versa, like BS their skills and be careful what we talk about their celebrity lifestyle.

summerblues wrote:But I suspect that I am in the minority on this one.  I imagine that more often than not, people end up rooting for someone they find likeable, that they want to feel some sort of association on human level rather than just watching tennis.

So I wonder, what do others have to say?

This is something I find quite interesting. With team sports you often 'inherit' them and, as they exist as an entity for a lifetime, you stick with them for a lifetime.

Tennis is not like that though. You are being drawn to an individual for the span of their career. It is something that seems to happen pretty organically.

Speaking personally, the main reason I enjoy following Novak is the narrative his career has generated. Sometimes it's agony, sometimes it's ecstasy, but it's rarely dull.

I must admit that there is something about the individual I like though.

I have a theory that our favourite players are often our 'avatars'. They represent qualities that we like and things we like to see in our own lives.

I'd speculate that many fans of Federer like elegance in other parts of their lives too. They instinctively put personal value on 'talent' and like to see it rewarded and recognised.

I imagine that many Nadal fans perhaps care less about finesse and have greater admiration for mental toughness, resilience and hard work. Perhaps also a few people who like to put two fingers up to the 'establishment' represented by Federer.

As a Djokovic follower, I'm very much drawn to the idea of the 'outsider come good', the supporting actor who steals scenes and eventually becomes a breakout star in his own right. My second favourite player is JMDP and I think that narrative holds true for him too, albeit to a lesser degree.

Murray fans, at least in this country, are perhaps the exception because there's no doubt he attracts a lot of support by virtue of patriotism and local media coverage. Which isn't to say he doesn't have qualities to admire, of course, but my hunch would be they are perhaps discovered once the affiliation is already in place?

Anyway, that's my Sigmund Freud bit for the day!

HM, I think you're probably right about the reasons why fans are attracted to certain players. Both the players I have been passionate about (Boris and Rafa) were fighters  above everything. I lived in Australia for 8 years and saw Roger play at the AO a number of times in his pomp. Honestly, it got to the stage of feeling like it was watching paint dry. I admire his sublime talent, absolutely, but if I had wanted to spend my time watching grace and elegance, I would have gone to the ballet. I wanted to see competitive matches.
 
As an aside on Murray, I was at RG this year and there was a group of French schoolgirls with Murray's name on their shirts and Union Jacks on their faces. They were quite hysterical when they were showing him on the big screen. I never had him down as one of the pin up boys, but there you go.

I am Murray fan because I am patriotic and I want to see Britain do well. It has been ages since we have had success in tennis. I managed to survive the Henman years.

Before that I loved the Lendl/Becker/Wilander/Edberg years. More Becker than anyone else. I loved watching McEnroe. It was time when tennis had some personality. Since then I feel tennis has lost its identity. Goran was entertaining as hell.

Djokovic I feel tries too hard to impose himself on the crowd and I find a bit of dishonesty with it.

I can tolerate Nadal to an extent.

Federer I enjoy watching. He is one of a kind in the talent department.

Behind Murray I love Fognini. He is brilliant to watch.

Murdoch summarises much of what drives me; Federer and McEnroe are my favourites, though I also strangely liked Lendl and Borg - Lendl for the fact I also had a monster forehand and cool shirts, and Borg because I hated Connors at the time.

On Federer I have an extra layer, that of gratitude. I had lost interest in tennis and didn't even keep up with the game until he came onto the scene. The sheer virtuosity re awoke my love of the sport, so thanks Fed, and for that I want him to keep successful as long as possible.

I don't like how Kygrios' is being painted as part of this serve only future when it is clear he is so much more than that. The Raonic Kygrios match was intriguing because it was Kygrios that was on the receiving end of all those serves but I think he was to worn down to win that match though he kept things interesting. I hope for his sake he can deal with those serves in future.

One of the reasons I like Federer aside from the obvious reason being his tennis is his perseverance in trying to express his talent in conditions that evolved to favour him less and less. I kind of often draw correct/incorrect parallels between tennis and other real life situations and he's the tennis analogue of who I'd support in those situations.

Funny enough, as I move further away from home, I become a bigger Federer fan... I suspect it's merely a case of home comforts - sometimes watching a Federer interview is the closest I'll come to a Kempton Park accent for a month or two.

bogbrush wrote:I admire Rafa for his determination and fortitude, he has overcome many steep obstacles. I also admire his grace in victory, more than I do Federer and Djokovic in that respect.

+1

I also admire Rafa as a person for exhibiting his social care life to help people in need, I have seen live in Tsunami affected areas, I have seen his school educating poor people in India, I have seen him play several exhibitions along with Federer to raise funds for a lot of charity.

Who can forget the respect he showed to Federer in AO 2009 and Wimb 2008 after the win, yes I do hate his style of play like many here but don't hate him as a person at all, indeed have a great respect and love for him as a human being.

I suspect AFCWomble42 could well be correct in that Uncle Toni was most probably responding to a question rather than issuing an unsolicited statement ; and the manner of reporting in the media can often create a distorted (and sometimes unfair) perspective.

That said, Uncle Toni of course has form, and a tendency to not only open his mouth far too often on behalf of his boy but also to do him few favours when he does. This was a perfect opportunity to show a lot of grace in defeat and respect for such a promising young prospect, but - whether intended or not - it came across instead as sour grapes.

HMM's translations are very funny   In fact when I read such original stuff, I often think it deserves a wider audience than the limited confines of 606.

Thanks, lags, that's very kind.

I'm not sure such esoteric nonsense would be appreciated outside of my online tennis brethren though! 

Since everyone seems to be joining in on their takes on different players and who they do and don't like, I used to be a Federer fan until the Wimbledon 2007 final and then things changed.

For me, I admire Federer's style of tennis and his hunger as a champion to keep wanting to win. However, over the years some of Federer's actions started to grate on me, the fancy Wimbledon outfits with golden racquets for every victory seemed incredibly pompous. I also admired how cool he was under pressure to an extent as well, but as soon as Nadal started to rock the cradle Federer suddenly wasn't so smooth anymore. In that W final in 2007 Federer asks the umpire to turn off hawk-eye because it wasn't going his way, I hated that, and even though I still wanted him to win that match it left a sour taste. Ever since he has done many more things that will mean I could never say that he as graceful a champion as many like to make out.

In the end, everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and some people put more weight to some actions than others. However, for all the flaws of the big four there could be a lot worse people representing the sport.

So you quit Fed because he put on some nasty clothes and Nadal started rocking his boat? Are you a fashion critic or a sailor?

Wierd liking Fed and then swapping for Nadal who has totally different style.
More of personality swap I guess as its not Tennis wise.

I like Nadal because he is 100% different to Fed.

I doubt Uncle T would care much for his fitness either

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/teen-beat-nadal-wimbledon-next-week-113920633.html

Pulling out of events? Doesn't his nephew do a lot of that?

bogbrush wrote:Pulling out of events? Doesn't his nephew do a lot of that?

This boy is 19 yrs old... and played one major slam..... oh yeah ??? Put your shovel away BB and stop digging !!!

Jahu wrote:So you quit Fed because he put on some nasty clothes and Nadal started rocking his boat? Are you a fashion critic or a sailor?

Wierd liking Fed and then swapping for Nadal who has totally different style.
More of personality swap I guess as its not Tennis wise.

I like Nadal because he is 100% different to Fed.

No I only listed some of the reasons and jus gave my two cents about how I changed my take on a player. I wouldn't want to go into a huge list of all the acts of poor sportsmanship of Federer. Also I did mention the fact that he asked to have the rules changed to benefit him. Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the negative and start some hate list like some people around here.   

Also I didn't just suddenly switch to Nadal because I grew to dislike Federer.

As I said everyone is different, however, despite the players in the big four that I dislike I think we have a decent group of guys at the top of the men's game. It could certainly be a whole lot worse IMO.

DJB14 wrote:

Jahu wrote:So you quit Fed because he put on some nasty clothes and Nadal started rocking his boat? Are you a fashion critic or a sailor?

Wierd liking Fed and then swapping for Nadal who has totally different style.
More of personality swap I guess as its not Tennis wise.

I like Nadal because he is 100% different to Fed.

No I only listed some of the reasons and jus gave my two cents about how I changed my take on a player. I wouldn't want to go into a huge list of all the acts of poor sportsmanship of Federer. Also I did mention the fact that he asked to have the rules changed to benefit him. Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the negative and start some hate list like some people around here.   

Also I didn't just suddenly switch to Nadal because I grew to dislike Federer.

As I said everyone is different, however, despite the players in the big four that I dislike I think we have a decent group of guys at the top of the men's game. It could certainly be a whole lot worse IMO.

Sounds like a vivid imagination to me.

Just admit it, you're a glory hunter. Fed started slipping so you jumped boat. Really no shame in admitting it. Until last year there were millions of Man U fans all around the world.

Never known a Federer fan to jump boat to Nadal.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Never known a Federer fan to jump boat to Nadal.

Am pretty certain it could indeed be a world first ....!

Of course there is often no sound logic as to why people warm to any particular player, and nor does there have to be. However .......the very notion that it was a perceived lack of sportsmanship by Federer which brought about a switch of loyalty to .... er .....Rafa is .....er .......just a little unconvincing.
Oh, the irony ......   

As for the "huge list of all the acts of poor sportsmanship of Federer" .......hmm. Obviously these acts must have somehow escaped the attention of Federer's fellow pros on & off court, given the consistency with which they vote for him in the annual Sportsmanship Awards

I would be intrigued to see this 'huge list'

Haha, seems like my comments have caused quite a stir.

I have my reasons for disliking Federer but, like I said, I don't want to spend time going on about them. I am no glory hunter, I just find I cannot be a 'fan' of someone if I don't like them as a person or find their actions unsporting. I find it quite funny the 'huge list' of things that people throw against Nadal tbh.

Anyway, as I said everyone is different. I can accept that people dislike the players I like, and like the players I dislike. I just wish the same could be said for others around here.

I don't think anyone is holding anything against you for swapping alligences. I think the reasoning if anything has left a few people even me stumped given the rap sheet Nadal has compared with Federer.

Nothing wrong with liking Nadal more than Federer.

DJB14 - I certainly wouldn't accuse you of being a 'glory hunter'. If you were, you would presumably have stuck with the guy who has achieved more in the game than anyone else, even if his star is inevitably fading with age.

I know all manner of people - myself included - who like Rafa, and for all manner of reasons. I have gone to a lot of effort to watch him live in Melbourne (this January just gone, when I almost got fried out there in 43c ....) and in London too.

It was - as I said earlier - the reference to a switch from Federer to Nadal on the basis of alleged 'unsporting action' by Federer that had caused such total incredulity. Would have much preferred you to tell us the REAL reason, rather than you having to trawl the archives to find an incident (and a fairly amusing one at that) from seven years ago.

Perhaps the simple fact is that you just think Rafa is a better tennis player ....  They can't do you for it !

That incident 7 years ago was actually amusing. I didn't think it was unsporting, but more frustration that Rafa was getting the breaks on HE and it nearly served Nadal well as Federer went on complete walkabout in that 4th set.

Lets leave him alone guys, Rafa is sunbathing his nuts while we care about who likes who.

Lets roll on  

Cram it Jinxy McJinx!

I have a feeling this vast list of Federer unsportsmanship is going to include such heinous crimes as

- that jacket
- telling Djokovic's parents to be quiet
- 2/3 arguments with umpires
- his ham fisted effort to be kind to Roddick in 2009

and will overlook

- playing the game promptly, within the rules
- never retiring from a match (and apologising to Malisse in 2012 for taking a MTO)
- sticking up for lower ranked pros against his own interests
- being sociable / knowing the names of lower ranked pros (Laura Robson couldn't believe he knew her and asked how she was a few years ago)

Ah well.......