Is Mallinder jealous of Magners set up?

A real question here. Last year I watched Munster beat a strongly rated Northampton team in the quarter finals of the Heineken Cup. Saints coach Jim Mallinder put the comprehensive defeat (33-19) down to the more competitive Premiership tiring out the players compared with the Magners League.

"It's sad for the English game and I don't know if the cycle will right itself,' he said. 'It's tough for us because the Premiership is so tough. We can only have limited squads, so these players are playing every week. Once you have played Premiership games, it is hard to get them up for the Heineken Cup, so we are a bit handicapped before we even start. 'I think English clubs are capable of winning it, but it is becoming increasingly difficult. Irish sides have Europe as their priority and they can rest players in the Magners League."

This season fatigue and the toughness of the Premiership in comparison with the more player friendly Magners League were again cited as the reasons for defeat against Leinster.

"It was because we were exhausted. The players were shot. It would have been nice not to have had a full-on game last week, and Leinster managed to take their five best players off in their game against Ulster. We could not do that against Leicester."

Firstly does Mallinder have a point or is it a case of the grass is greener on the other side? Secondly is it really that big a deal? Mallinder wasn't saying this when they beat the Cardiff Blues twice in the Heineken Cup this year. Nor was it a problem in the pool stages when they came within inches of sacking Thomond Park last year. Harlequins showed no problem going and winning a European Cup beating the likes of Munster, Wasps and Stade Francais along the way.

So has Jim got a point or is it a helpful go to cliché when they lose out.

What does the man want? Is he saying England should regionalise? Or did he want a handicap system? A ten point start? The truth is he was tactically inept. He should have told his team to watch for the bounce back. His outside half should have kicked the leather off the ball for the first ten minutes of the second half. Turn Leinster and force them to play from deep. Excuses I'm afraid. If they were tired why were they playing the bang bang stuff in the first half? Because that's the only way they know how to play.

It's a helpful go to cliché in my opinion.

At the moment the Munster and Leinster set up allows them to rest some of their key players. But when you look at any other side in the Magners really, they're playing their best players all the time too, yet you don't hear of them complaining about fatigue if they lose a key match.

I'm not quite sure what he means about English sides having limited squads. Don't they have a bigger salary cap then most side in the Magners? doesn't this mean they should be able to have larger squads and the ability to rotate them?

I'm not all that clued up on the English set up I'll admit, but it sounds a bit of nonsense to me really.

The comment about Leinster taking off players the previous week irks me to be honest.

5 players got injured in our game against Ulster and he’s saying that they had a tougher game against Leicester? Was it tougher because they lost or because they couldn’t make substitutions. Mallinder comes across as a genuine guy and isn’t his whinging is way easier to take than Dicky Cockrill or Brenda Venter but it’s whinging none the less.

Essentially they lost because they don’t have a good squad. We were the same last year when we were sacked by Toulouse, it happens.

In fairness to him that quote is taken from an interview done about ten minutes after the final whistle, so at the time he may just have been clutching at straws. However as much as I don't like to say it he does have a point.

English teams suffer from the salary cap, simple as. The evidence is clear. Look at Ireland, centrally contacted players who get a rest mid season when required which in itself leads to good squad rotation which keeps squad players Sharp as they are getting regular games. Now look at France privately owned clubs but no cap, this allows them to build the squad they want and not the squad they can piece together after they sign a couple of big names. This leads to a strong squad so again players can be rested when needs be and the team can still compete.

Until the cap is removed English teams are going to suffer, they've only had teams in two of the last seven finals where as the magners teams have won 4 finals in the same time, clear were doing something right, so stop making excuses and fix your problems England .

Fair play Hughie. Its important to mention also Saracens boss McCalls comments earlier this year.

"The situation with the Heineken Cup is a difficult one because the English and French clubs have to compete very strongly to qualify, whereas the eight or nine in the Magners League go straight through. "It is not a level playing field, particularly when you include the gap that exists between English and French clubs in terms of squad size and you then compare our salary cap with theirs.

England need to get things in order.

red_stag wrote:Fair play Hughie. Its important to mention also Saracens boss McCalls comments earlier this year.

"The situation with the Heineken Cup is a difficult one because the English and French clubs have to compete very strongly to qualify, whereas the eight or nine in the Magners League go straight through. "It is not a level playing field, particularly when you include the gap that exists between English and French clubs in terms of squad size and you then compare our salary cap with theirs.

England need to get things in order.

On the other hand, the Magners teams have been re-organised to be competitive in Europe. You can't complain that it's unfair just because other people (especially Munster and Leinster) have planned well. Also, the French teams don't treat the Heineken Cup as seriously as the English sides do.

I think as Hughie has said you have to take what has been said by Mallinder in context. His team had just surrendered a 16 point lead in the second half of the final and he was in an emotional state.

He does have some valid points, fatigue was a huge issue for Saints, you could see that in the second half. However, I don't necessarily agree that it is a result of being a Premiership team rather than in the Magners. Part of Saints problem is that in almost every position there is a real gulf in class between their first choice player and their second player, and as a result Mallinder has not had the confidence to start the second choice players very often, meaning that the first choice is very fatigued at this stage of the season.

Of course the salary cap and central contracts for the Irish players has an impact on this, but ultimately it is about management of resources, and ensuring that you have the right resources in place. Mallinder deep down knows this, hence he has purchased Paul Doran-Jones for next season meaing that Tiny and Mujati will get more of a rest and be fresher come the business end of the season.

Also, these things like dominant teams in competitions are cyclical. Ireland are in the ascendency at present and have good structures in place. Other teams from other countries will catch up and overtake as the bar is continually raised by all in the quest for success.

Finally, and I am sure that Mallinder knows this as well, his 10, 12, 13 combination whislt being good at what they do are limited players and can only implement plan A. They do this very well, but at the top end of the spectrum plan A will not always work, and you need a plan B and possibly C to fall back on if you want to win. Saints do not have one, and until they do they will struggle to beat the very best that Europe has to offer.

Pete I agree entirely he has valid points. I think its a very interesting discussion. Clearly the off field structures are working for Ireland and not for England (only with regard to Europe I mean).

However Tigers made final in 2009 and Saints made it in 2011. Would we be having this conversation if both could have won 1 game. Also Quins are Amlin Cup champs.

Pete has it bang on - there is a huge gulf in ability between Saints starting XV and the remainder of the squad - we saw it clearly during the 6Ns. Entirely different question as to whether this situation can be pinned on the salary cap or is simply the result of duff recruitment of support players?

Thats exactly it Asbo. I remember Munster used finish 5th and 6th place in the ML to compensate for winning in Europe. Its really only now teams like Leinster can fight on two fronts.

got some comments from the pros on this via twitter:

Alex Lowe (sports journalist)

alexmlowe Alex Lowe
@606v2rugby Saints suffered from lack of depth. Over-reliant on core of squad. Look how they struggled in 6N. That caught up with them.

(from 606v2 rugby)agree its the lack of depth but Mallinder seems to think its because its a tougher league, which I dont believe it to be (equal)

Not only reason they lost on Saturday but JM does need more depth. AP didn't stop Leic/Wasps winning HC in recent years.

and then from Jeremy Guscott:

@606v2rugby they dont have a strong enough squad of players in comparison to Leinster

@JeremyGuscott agree its the lack of depth but Mallinder seems to think its because its a tougher league, which I dont believe(equally hard)

@606v2rugby it is a tougher league because of qualification for HC & relegation makes it more competitive

@JeremyGuscott I would agree about more "pressure" but not physically tougher. Thanks for the comments though - a pleasure as always!

What nice people they are for taking the time to respond.

red_stag wrote:Pete I agree entirely he has valid points. I think its a very interesting discussion. Clearly the off field structures are working for Ireland and not for England (only with regard to Europe I mean).

However Tigers made final in 2009 and Saints made it in 2011. Would we be having this conversation if both could have won 1 game. Also Quins are Amlin Cup champs.

Precisely. Saints were 40 minutes away from being Champions of Europe and the game between Saints and Leinster in 2009 was also very tight. Last year when Toulouse faced Biarritz in the Heino final everyone was talking about French domination of Europe going and all other countries struggling to catch up as they would be able to splash the cash and buy success.

This year, there is no French team in the final and now the debate is about whether the Magners or AP set up is better in terms of allowing teams to compete in Europe. Very rarely do teams manage to win their league and the Heino in the same season. Leinster m,ay be the exception this year, but inablity to truly compete on two fronts is not a new thing.

Next season when a Welsh or English side win it, the talk will no doubt be about how Ireland's golden generation is now past it's best and the talent coming through is not good enough and how foreign mercenaries are ruining the Top 14.

Small margins decide matches at the top level and if Saints and Tigers had won their matches this year and in 2009 nobody would be discussing fatigue and the structures of the respective leagues.

Bottom line is that Leinster were the better team over 80 minutes of rugby 4 days ago. Roll on the new season and we can all start again in trying to win Europes premier rugby compeition.

Good points Pete. It's been said already.

I just look at Ulster; we had the exact same problem as Saints come the end of the season. Fatigue. The Magners didn't save us from that, we were worn out by the end of the season after a very tough campaign. Leinster did not suffer that problem, because they had a whole second team of players who can step into the side and perform well.

What's more, is almost all of those players are homegrown. O'Malley, McFadden, Dave Kearney, Rhys Ruddock, Dominic Ryan, Devin Toner, Kevin McLaughlin, Ian Madigan have all come through the Leinster Academy. Then you have guys like Stan Wright, Heinke Van Der Merwe, Isaac Boss- they have incredible depth. Mainly due to the most productive academy in Europe and a few smart signings.

There's nothing easy about the Magners anymore. It's become a very tough, competitive league that will drain players just as much as the AP.

But an Englishman without an excuse... well that's like a dog without a bone

Basically the Magners, like the AP is two leagues in one, the top half of each is very similar in quality to the other, and the bottom half has similar strengths too.
Mallinder is currently at the Liberty stadium taking spinning lessons from the O's coaches, next year he will have even more.
Bottom line is lose a game and it's someone else's fault, win and it's down to you and yours.
If it were the difference between the AP and Magners then the Welsh and Scottish teams would be far more competitive than they presently are.
Probably got more to do with :
A) better players
B) central contracts.

Notch

I know that last comment is probably a bit tongue in cheek mate, but was it really necessary? All coaches of all nationalities make excuses for defeat at one time or another, it is not an English thing and that comment is just likely to get people's back up as opposed to prompting sensible debate.

Notch wrote:Good points Pete. It's been said already.

I just look at Ulster; we had the exact same problem as Saints come the end of the season. Fatigue. The Magners didn't save us from that, we were worn out by the end of the season after a very tough campaign. Leinster did not suffer that problem, because they had a whole second team of players who can step into the side and perform well.

What's more, is almost all of those players are homegrown. O'Malley, McFadden, Dave Kearney, Rhys Ruddock, Dominic Ryan, Devin Toner, Kevin McLaughlin, Ian Madigan have all come through the Leinster Academy. Then you have guys like Stan Wright, Heinke Van Der Merwe, Isaac Boss- they have incredible depth. Mainly due to the most productive academy in Europe and a few smart signings.

There's nothing easy about the Magners anymore. It's become a very tough, competitive league that will drain players just as much as the AP.

But an Englishman without an excuse... well that's like a dog without a bone

Notch, I was thinking about this this morning, in relation to the salary cap, could Ireland in years to come suffer from our NIQ rule??


Yes at the minute its working because were winning but if the bubble bursts and the quality of players we can produce alá BOD POC Paddy Wallace (sic) dries up then what then?? Would it be right to blame this rule on our lack of success??

You mean the fact we can only have so many NIQs?

It might do Hughie. But it's more important for me that we produce players for the national side than win Heineken Cups. I think the mindset has to be about bringing young players through at the four provinces because we only have four teams to give guys experience.

Right now, we have the right balance but I wouldn't want to increase it. IRFU want to decrease it from 5+1 project, to 4+1 project.

I do mean that, there was an article in the Irish Independent this morning

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-the-building-of-an-empire-2655183.html


Now because of the NIQ rule this is only possible if we can continue to produce world class players, which is not guaranteed at all and most likely will cause a problem down the line

Thats a good good point Hughie.

How about we envite Saints to play a season in the magners and see if it helps them be any more competitive in Europe?

Personally I think they over acheived due to havin a relatively easy group and run to the final. They simply aren't up to the level of Leinster, Toulouse etc.

Welcome to the boards rodders

thanks hobo

hughie1986 wrote:I do mean that, there was an article in the Irish Independent this morning

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-the-building-of-an-empire-2655183.html

Now because of the NIQ rule this is only possible if we can continue to produce world class players, which is not guaranteed at all and most likely will cause a problem down the line

The answer is simple. If Leinster want to maintain their Empire, they must keep producing BODs, O'Briens and Sextons. Sport is by it's very nature cyclical. We mustn't let the prospect of a few barren years for one province derail our main objective in the professional era, which is producing a winning Ireland team.

My point of view is that provincial success must always take a back seat to national success. The system as it is encourages the provinces to invest in the academies and young players, which is the way forward.

Also, you're not going to build a team like the one Leinster have by buying in players. With homegrown players, you know that that group of players could be together for 10 years. NIQ players generally come for 1, 2, 3 years then leave.

Leinster have got the balance right over the past couple of seasons and the Foreign imports that they have bought in have been top class and are players that the younger Irish guys can learn from. You can't underestimate the impact that Elsom would have had on SOB during his time there. It is clear to see in the way SOB plays the game.

Likewise Hines as a senior pro will be influencing younger players behind the scenes, as Contepomi would have done with Sexton.

All the time they invest in the academy whilst bringing the right 'outsiders' in for them to learn from, they will continue to be strong.

It is a sound model for success and one that almost any team could follow should they decide to do so. Ulster are doing it with the likes of Muller and Pienaar and look to be in it for the long haul.

Saints built from relegation for mid term success and have fallen betwenn two stalls. Their talented youngsters are not yet ready and they relay too heavily on the first string players. If they keep at it and push more into development, in 3-5 years time they could be where Leinster are now. They will have to probably endure more heartache like they did on the weekend in the meantime, but it will be worth it in the long run.

LDCPete wrote:They will have to probably endure more heartache like they did on the weekend in the meantime, but it will be worth it in the long run.

Exactly. Munster lost to Saints in the final in 2000. They were probably victim to a lack of TMO in 2001 and then got another chance in 2002 where they were comfortably 2nd best against Tigers. But they learnt from all that.

roddersm wrote:How about we envite Saints to play a season in the magners and see if it helps them be any more competitive in Europe?

Personally I think they over acheived due to havin a relatively easy group and run to the final. They simply aren't up to the level of Leinster, Toulouse etc.

In the contemporary era, only three teams in the Magners have ever been successful in Europe - one of them, Ulster has won it once. On the other hand four different English teams have won the competition, with Bath winning only once. Hardly Magners League dominance is it? And in the latest period of Irish ascendency, only Munster and Leinster have done it, Leinster only recently. So, tell me, apart from Munster (on the wain) and Leinster, just what benefits would Northampton gain from being in the Magners League with everybody else second best, no relegation and two Italian teams that are way short of the mark.

Great White wrote:

roddersm wrote:How about we envite Saints to play a season in the magners and see if it helps them be any more competitive in Europe?

Personally I think they over acheived due to havin a relatively easy group and run to the final. They simply aren't up to the level of Leinster, Toulouse etc.

In the contemporary era, only three teams in the Magners have ever been successful in Europe - one of them, Ulster has won it once. On the other hand four different English teams have won the competition, with Bath winning only once. Hardly Magners League dominance is it? And in the latest period of Irish ascendency, only Munster and Leinster have done it, Leinster only recently. So, tell me, apart from Munster (on the wain) and Leinster, just what benefits would Northampton gain from being in the Magners League with everybody else second best, no relegation and two Italian teams that are way short of the mark.

Is it any different to the English with Bath & Wasps (on the wain), Saints (not there yet) and the Tigers with everyone else 2nd best and a few Northern teams way short of the mark.

Perhaps not but then to suggest that one team should join the other league in order to improve it, is quite obviously garbage then isn't it?

Great White wrote:Perhaps not but then to suggest that one team should join the other league in order to improve it, is quite obviously garbage then isn't it?

It is of course garbage but that wasn't what he said at all. It was that even if Saints could join ML they wouldn't magically get better. That was all.

I think we all know what he meant. And it wasn't your version of events either....

White, his version was that they weren't good enough to win the Euro Cup and that its nothing to do with the league they are in. I don't know what you thought he meant?

So if had nothing to do with the league they were in, why did he suggest moving to the Magners to see if they got any better?

Great White wrote:So if had nothing to do with the league they were in, why did he suggest moving to the Magners to see if they got any better?

To prove the point. Again what do you think he meant. To me its very clearly saying "put them in ML but it will do no good. ML/Premiership isn't the reason".

To me what it says is 'my form from BBC606 is being carried over to 606v2, I took every opportunity to belittle English clubs then, and I see no reason to stop now'.

Great White - the original part of this thread was that Mallinder suggested that Saints players were more tired by the end of the season because they played in the Aviva. Some have pointed out that it's no longer the case of the Magners being "easier" on players and that it's just as hard, hence the suggestion about Saints playing in it to see if they would find it easier. I think the obvious answer would be that they wouldn't.

I might be completely wrong on my reading of it, but I don't see what was so bad about what rodders has said.

Great White wrote:To me what it says is 'my form from BBC606 is being carried over to 606v2, I took every opportunity to belittle English clubs then, and I see no reason to stop now'.

Grreat White - to make you aware, everyone who comes to v2 get's a fresh start, a clean slate as it were, regardless of what they were like on 606. I would ask please can you forget old rivalries from 606 if you can. I've read back over the comment and there is nothing wrong with it, the poster is simply just expressing their own views.

Dreamer your not wrong. There was nothing bad in it at all.

White, forget about what people may have written on 606. If I wrote that would you be having a go at me? Or is it just because of stuff he wrote before that its offensive?

Even Stephen Jones (journalist) makes a good point once in a while

A leapoard doesn't change its spots.

Bleeding heart liberalism is what allowed BBC 606 to descend into a cesspool of WUMMery.

It does seem strange that Saints are getting rid of Bruce Reihana, Mark Easter, Joe Ansbro, Shane Geraghty, Dan Sanderson , Regardt Dreyer and Matt Cornwell given lack of depth. I wonder are they making many signings. I heard that Vasily Artimiev is joining.

Okay, Great White could you just take a deep breath for a moment please.

Rodders, like everyone is allowed an opinion. He has made his point and for some reason you dont agree with it. AS someone who doesnt know either of your histories and took the post on face value, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

This site has rules about what is allowed and what isnt. His post doesnt come anywhere near breaking anything. If anything, its actually caused debate which is what forums are meant to do.

I would appreciate it if you leave any preconceived grudges at the (606) door. Everyone gets a fresh start. If he, or anyone else breaks the house rules, they will be dealt with accordingly.

For the time being though, I would gracefully ask you to tone your aggressiveness towards him down and comment nicely.

This board hasnt had any problems with regards to WUMs so far - we are going to keep it that way.

If you have any further issues, please contact me via PM to discuss - this thread should now go back on topic please.

I agree Stag. That's a lot of players to replace. Geraghty and Ansbro will be the most missed I think.

They have replaced Geraghty with Lamb. Not sure if that is an improvement or not, and that is coming from a London Irish supporter, where we replaced Geraghty with Lamb. Maybe Mallinder will get the best out of him on a consistent basis.

Doran-Jones (Gloucester), May (Toulon), G. Pisi (Taranaki), Armetiev (VVA-Podmoskovye), Lamb (London Irish), M. Roberts (Scarlets), Cato (Saracens), Manoa (San Francisco), Craig (Leeds), C. Sempere (Nottingham)

Stag, the above are who Saints have signed so far. They've signed a whole new back line there and also two new players at lock.

The back-row might have been somewhere they should have looked at but maybe there are more signings in the offing.

I think objective English fans can be quite glad with their domestic situation. They are taking the short term pain of the wage cap on the chin. One of their two European finalists won their final. The other was within 2 scores of a truly excellent Leinster side. The wage cap is a gamble, there is no doubt about that. However if the English teams can stick it whilst France either see clubs going bust or adopt their own after the damage is done the European scene could be very different within 5 years. There are benefits for the international side that come from fostering their own talent as well.

MBTGOG - they are very impressive signings.

I confess I forgot Martin Roberts was going there. He'll be great behind the Saints pack, well if he can sort his attitude out a bit anyway! Got a brilliant pass on him.

Martin Roberts needs a good coach.