England vs India - Second Test - Lords

First topic message reminder :

Seeming as we have such a short turnaround thought I'd stick up a thread

England have added Simon Kerrigan to the squad interestingly. I'd imagine he must be in serious contention, or else what's the point of adding another body?

That was a tiny nick and should have been out. But anyway- these two will not be lasting long. They are flapping

I try not to be TOO critical... but 6 men on the boundary? With England's leading Test wicket-taker in England bowling to a No. 10? Rubbish. Utter rubbish

India's Day...on a very difficult pitch negating the loss of the toss and now will maximize the advantage of bowling 4th      

Clearly England's day, although they will be a tad disappointed not to have skittled India out already. History shows us that the track will improve, even more so with the good conditions for the next couple of days, so that's further good news for England (and was probably in Cook's mind at the toss).

Just so long as that last wicket is taken for under 320, England will be feeling confident.

Duty281 wrote:Clearly England's day, although they will be a tad disappointed not to have skittled India out already. History shows us that the track will improve, even more so with the good conditions for the next couple of days, so that's further good news for England (and was probably in Cook's mind at the toss).

Just so long as that last wicket is taken for under 320, England will be feeling confident.

Duty you've got to be joking if you think that's England's day

Not sure that either team can claim to have had the better of that day. It's pretty even, if England get the last wicket early then the momentum is with them but if India can put on a good stand then they'll have the momentum, so an even first day with a big momentum swing to come in the morning.

KP fan there s no advantage owling 4th at lords- you will need to take wickets- and i dont think you can here- your team hasnt got the fire power.

Not sure where this Indias day comes from

start of play(after toss) england 2.8 for the win, india 4 for the win. end of play England 1.87 for the win, india 4.8 for the win.

and tbh that is exactly the way i see it.

India could have been bundled out for less- but all the same its about taking wickets. I cant see India doing it.

On balance, I can't see how it's not England's day. Days two and three will remain the best for batting, and India are still nine wickets down. The difference is, one session ago, India were on their last legs. Now, they've got right back in it. Still a jump in belief to see that team sklitting England out.

I miss Mike and his detailed analysis. Really contributed to a day's play.

mystiroakey wrote:KP fan there s no advantage owling 4th at lords- you will need to take wickets- and i dont think you can here- your team hasnt got the fire power.

Not sure where this Indias day comes from

start of play(after toss) england 2.8 for the win, india 4 for the win. end of play England 1.87 for the win, india 4.8 for the win.

and tbh that is exactly the way i see it.

India could have been bundled out for less- but all the same its about taking wickets. I cant see India doing it.

You love talking nonsense don't you?

How'd you know India don't have the FIREPOWER?

This is a pretty average England batting line up.

If they where bowling at South Africa or Australia then you'd think the bowling attack might struggle.

England don't have any world class batsmen(47+ averages)

Might be irrelevant but India will be pretty happy that they will get to bat tomorrow morning.

Keeps Cook on his toes. He'll get a little edgy and there's the 10min turnaround.

Cook would've loved to be walking out first thing tomorrow instead of stewing in the morning.

This pitch is gonna deteriorate, there's already uneven bounce and some turn for Ali. Batting fourth on here will be deadly. 

England have let another match winning situation slip, and honestly if they're chasing anything over 200 in the 4th, I can't see them doing it.

Don't think this pitch is gonna get better for batting, most lead I can see England getting is maybe 50 if they play well.

No i am being backed up by odds Gerry. I have everything going for me with my take on the day.

root's average is over 47 , 

I suspect you picked that random figure because you thought cook had just driffted under it.

haha- you are so see through its ridiculous

mystiroakey wrote:No i am being backed up by odds Gerry. I have everything going for me with my take on the day.

root's average is over 47 , 

I suspect you picked that random figure because you thought cook had just driffted under it.

haha- you are so see through its ridiculous

Talking of Kevin Pietersen you see he played 100 Tests so his average is a fair reflection on his talent.

Root's average. Only gets runs at home.

India will bowl England out under their total.

both KP and Cook at 90 tests were on averages of 50- they both went backwards on a dip of form- 

I think at 90 test matches a 50 average is a decent indication.

But Look if you think India will win- heck even draw- take the bet- you can Lay england off and over double your money

mystiroakey wrote:both KP and Cook at 90 tests were on averages of 50- they both went backwards on a dip of form- 

I think at 90 test matches a 50 average is a decent indication.

But Look if you think India will win- heck even draw- take the bet- you can Lay england off and over double your money

I don't do betting so I'll take your word for it.

KP > Cook

That's my opinion. But it doesn't matter now as KP is persona non grata

Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Clearly England's day, although they will be a tad disappointed not to have skittled India out already. History shows us that the track will improve, even more so with the good conditions for the next couple of days, so that's further good news for England (and was probably in Cook's mind at the toss).

Just so long as that last wicket is taken for under 320, England will be feeling confident.

Duty you've got to be joking if you think that's England's day

Now, now, Oliver, calm yourself. Take a deep breath, or two, have a cold drink, and relax. England's day and, looking at the bigger picture, they will have best use of the wicket for batting.

KP was our most talented player- i doubt many will  dispute that.

Cook > KP.

A significant recovery from India. From 145-7 and staring at humiliation, the last wickets have doubled the total to a respectable 290-9. Absolutely fabulous innings from Ajinkya Rahane, that 6 of Anderson is going to stay in the mind for long!. Terrific support from Bhuvneshwar Kumar, he played some nice shots after he got in.
Atrocious field placings from Alastair Cook. Former number 11, recently promoted to number 10, Mohammed Shami had no less than 6 deep fielders for him, facing up to the new ball, with the number 11 Ishant Sharma for company. That too against James Anderson and Stuart Broad. If you were attacking the lower order batsman and letting the proper batter get off strike with a single, though convoluted, has a strange logic to it. But this was simply atrocious!.
The other question is on Liam Plunkett. Those who have seen him in county action, is this the only length he bowls? Halfway down the pitch, ball after ball, over after over? He had that injury concern and was way short of his usual pace since return. Yet the bowler and the captain, and the team management as such, kept with the plan that hasn't been working for 2 test matches.

plunkett might be injured and his pace is down- he should be able to reach and get past 90 mph as he hs on many occasions before . I ahve no idea why he was bowling so short- just injured or badly out of nick.


This Quicks are like that though.

I doubt he will  be our Mitch- but look at him at his worst to his best- You cant get a larger variance

Mysti its not just about the pace. It is about the kind of plan he or the team management works with. Yes he's quick though not really in the Johnson class, but he can, as you said hit 90 MPH mark. Even then, the short ball has to have a surprise element to it. Short has become Plunkett's default length, he's a better bowler than that, and if he keeps 90 % of his balls on the shorter side, then his pace won't have the expected effect either. They had confused and messed up Stuart Broad like this ones up on a time. Ever since he came out of that nonsense mentality, he has become a far, far better bowler.
Either Plunkett is not capable of hitting good areas, or Cook and the management are making yet another terrible mistake with him and adding to their long list of messed around cricketers, a list that includes some of England's most promising young tallents, Steven Finn, Joe Root and so on.

my point was about Johnson and what Australia did with him and also various spinners before deciding on them- its a work in progress- just give them the game time then just settle on one. will it be plunkett , or will it be someone else..Maybe people forget how bad Mitch was or even Lyons- but in the end they thought sod it- these are the best we have so lets just stick with them and give them practice even if they mess up.

In the end it worked for both players.

Off course plunkett is capable of bowling in good areas - he just wasnt today.


I also am not sure what you mean about joe root- he may have been shifted about but it hasnt hurt him as a player- it has only given him experience and he will be in our side for the next 10 years plus

why its India's Day ?

--on D1 this is a 200 to 225 pitch if you bat well so getting 300 you are covering the par score for second inning.

--Ind got Eng to 200-7 and have a pretty good attack if there is life in the pitch. actually juice in the pitch helps prop up Indiam bowling if their batsman have put a par score.

--4th inning the is the pressure inning... and we don't need square turn, but just a bit og bounce and skid off the pitch and jadeja will be handy.

someone for Eng could play a super inning and get 400ish and bat India out, but the odds are on Eng batting well and getting a par 300ish in their first inning

the 'bookies' odds favour an england win due to getting so many wickets day 1 at lords- 

lords historically flattens out and draws are the huge favorite result.

draw is the next lowest odd predication for that reason

then an Indian win 3rd- as its so rare for a team to get 20 wickets on this pitch- but england already have 9

I'd say that it was India's day today, but also that, perhaps counter intuitively, England are slightly ahead in the game. From losing the toss, and being 150-7, India will be delighted with the recovery. A tremendous knock from Rahane, hung in well and scored at a good rate. Someone like Pujara, who is also a good player, got a little stuck and you can't do that on this pitch as there is always a ball with your name on.

Despite this, England will be fairly pleased as if they can get the final wicket early tomorrow morning they will fancy their chances of getting a sizable first innings lead of circa 100, as the pitch seemed to flatten out by the time of the second new ball and didn't do as much through the air. The new ball spell of Kumar will be crucial.

if normal Lords rules apply why would Cook win the toss and bowl first 

KP_fan wrote:if normal Lords rules apply why would Cook win the toss and bowl first 

morning weather- cook was hoping that it would be the best chance of effective seam bowling. and to be fair England do have 9 wickets.

if the pitch stays as it is or gets worse and worse- this game would be a 55/45 to india and the draw would be out the window.

But lords normally only gets better for the batters, and that is why draw is still quite a low odd(relative high chance)

The resistance from Rahane and the lower order just made it an even day.
Yes considering the bowling conditions, there is a temptation to call it India's day. However, they have reached only 290, not a big score by any means, not a bad one either. But tomorrow is expected to be a hot and dry day followed by a more cloudier and even rainy day the day after. So tomorrow it might just be that batting may not be as difficult as it was today. And it will be India who will be starting in the morning. Even if they bat 15 minutes, then almost the first half-hour is taken out of the game as far as the England batsmen are concerned, the time of the day where the ball would be doing a lot of things. So England can come out, take their time, play themselves in and build a decent lead. If they manage a 100-120 lead, it will be difficult for India in the 3rd innings.
But if Bhuvi and Shami make better use of the new ball unlike the English bowlers, and if Ishant, Jadeja and Binny offer better back-up than the likes of Plunkett did, then India can get England lead to manageable proportions. I will be very glad and pleasantly surprised if India manage a first innings lead.

tbh i have no idea what is going to happen- just re checking the history- yes it was a draw pitch and we had about 5 on the spin or something - but the last 20 tests on this ground have ended up being 10 wins to england 7 draws and 3 away wins.

what I do know is that England's odds to win has fallen since the start of the game and after the toss.

I think what is clear is that england and india are of a very similar standard- neither have the killer edge - one is slightly better at batting and one is slightly better at bowling.

If i was an Indian fan I would probably take the 4/1 on India- but this is a very good ground for England and in recent history its very rare that we lose- and looking at the difference between batting first or second- there isn't much correlation there..

Boycott writes off Cook......sounds eerily familiar to Warne

bbc cricket wrote:England v India: Alastair Cook criticised by Geoffrey Boycott

Second Test, Lord's (day one)
India 290-9 v England
Scorecard
Alastair Cook will not "make it as a tactical captain", according to former England batsman Geoffrey Boycott.
England skipper Cook was criticised after his side surrendered a strong position on the opening day of the second Test against India at Lord's.
On a pitch helpful to the bowlers, India recovered from 145-7 to reach 290-9 at the close.
"He might make it scoring runs, but he won't not make it as a tactical captain," said Boycott.

KP_fan wrote:Boycott writes off  Cook......sounds eerily familiar to Warne

bbc cricket wrote:England v India: Alastair Cook criticised by Geoffrey Boycott

Second Test, Lord's (day one)
India 290-9 v England
Scorecard
Alastair Cook will not "make it as a tactical captain", according to former England batsman Geoffrey Boycott.
England skipper Cook was criticised after his side surrendered a strong position on the opening day of the second Test against India at Lord's.
On a pitch helpful to the bowlers, India recovered from 145-7 to reach 290-9 at the close.
"He might make it scoring runs, but he won't not make it as a tactical captain," said Boycott.

but he tactically made the right call to bowl first!

he just messed it up last session- but in fairness we have to put some of that credit on the Indian batsman!

A captain who leaves alone the number 10 to attack the number 11!. Enough said!.

We know MSD can be boringly and terribly defensive, but Cook has completely outclassed him.......

msp83 wrote:We know MSD can be boringly and terribly defensive, but Cook has completely outclassed him.......

I wouldn't go that far map

Dhoni in that partnership between Anderson/Root sunk to depths I thought no captain could go

msp83 wrote:We know MSD can be boringly and terribly defensive, but Cook has completely outclassed him.......

Don't be so sure msp......dhonis Cook's brother and the single reason that lets India's batting and bowling down

Duty281 wrote:

Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Clearly England's day, although they will be a tad disappointed not to have skittled India out already. History shows us that the track will improve, even more so with the good conditions for the next couple of days, so that's further good news for England (and was probably in Cook's mind at the toss).

Just so long as that last wicket is taken for under 320, England will be feeling confident.

Duty you've got to be joking if you think that's England's day

Now, now, Oliver, calm yourself. Take a deep breath, or two, have a cold drink, and relax. England's day and, looking at the bigger picture, they will have best use of the wicket for batting.

I can't say I agree Duty. I don't think the pitch will be considerably better tomorrow or day three, and I think come the fourth innings its going to have deteriorated badly (turn and uneven bounce on day one isn't usually a good sign a pitch will hold together)

That being sad, recently my gut feeling has been woefully off. My Germany to get knocked out in the group stage feeling didn't exactly go well!

mystiroakey wrote:tbh i have no idea what is going to happen- just re checking the history- yes it was a draw pitch and we had about 5 on the spin or something - but the last 20 tests on this ground have ended up being 10 wins to england 7 draws and 3 away wins.

what I do know is that England's odds to win has fallen since the start of the game and after the toss.

Best days for batting are usually two and three at Lord's, hence why Cooky bowled first. England will want to take maximum advantage and eke out a hundred run first innings lead (minimum), thusly piling the pressure on India...but only after they've got that last wicket of course!

It's a stretch to see how India can win this one, particularly when you consider the conditions will be weighted highly in England's favour.

Might be a delayed start tomorrow, actually, looking at the weather. Hope it won't be like what it is in Cornwall currently!

Boycott is spot on. This England team is better than it's displaying and again and again recently they fail to be more than the sum of their parts.

Right last couple of moans from me today

1.Matt Prior. He clearly isn't fit. His keeping has gone down the toilet. His batting in the SL series showed he still has issues with the short stuff. Honestly I don't care if Buttler is ready or not, he wouldn't do worse than Prior is now. And he's got the potential to be so so much more.

2. This short ball theory from Plunkett/Cook. I can't stand it. The short ball is best used as a surprise ball to keep the batsman back. You'll see Johnson in the ashes used it like that, got loads of wickets with batsmen half forward to full balls. England make it more obvious than my love for Gary Ballance. Rahane was just swatting it away with ease. And don't do it on a pitch that was nipping around!!!!!

A positive for me - Ali bowled well. Should've had two wickets (Mr Prior ahem), and kept it quiet. And Stokes bowled nicely again. Good rhythm and pace

Stokes reminded me off, cough, Flintoff with the ball today. Bowled nicely with good pace and a little movement but he generally too short to get the edge a la Freddie.

JDizzle wrote:Stokes reminded me off, cough, Flintoff with the ball today. Bowled nicely with good pace and a little movement but he generally too short to get the edge a la Freddie.

I've seen that comparison myself and can't say I agree

For me Flintoff was very much a bang in into the pitch type, only kissed the surface when he pitched it right up, whereas Stokes really seems to kiss the surface. He's got a skiddy kind of action I think

Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Stokes reminded me off, cough, Flintoff with the ball today. Bowled nicely with good pace and a little movement but he generally too short to get the edge a la Freddie.

I've seen that comparison myself and can't say I agree

For me Flintoff was very much a bang in into the pitch type, only kissed the surface when he pitched it right up, whereas Stokes really seems to kiss the surface. He's got a skiddy kind of action I think

Yeah, I get where you are coming from. Perhaps not a great comparison. Wasn't so much comparing the styles, just the end product today. Stokes would have got more reward for me if he had pitched it up more, a problem Freddie had a lot. Although Fred's natural length was shorter than Stokes, which makes it more anoying he didn't push it slightly further up today!

JDizzle wrote:

Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Stokes reminded me off, cough, Flintoff with the ball today. Bowled nicely with good pace and a little movement but he generally too short to get the edge a la Freddie.

I've seen that comparison myself and can't say I agree

For me Flintoff was very much a bang in into the pitch type, only kissed the surface when he pitched it right up, whereas Stokes really seems to kiss the surface. He's got a skiddy kind of action I think

Yeah, I get where you are coming from. Perhaps not a great comparison. Wasn't so much comparing the styles, just the end product today. Stokes would have got more reward for me if he had pitched it up more, a problem Freddie had a lot. Although Fred's natural length was shorter than Stokes, which makes it more anoying he didn't push it slightly further up today!

Think that criticism is valid today for sure. I was impressed with Stokes's pace, he really can get it through high eighties and touching ninety when he gets going

Anderson I thought was poor today yet ended up with fantastic figures. Today was certainly one of those "he'll bowl worse and pick up more wickets days" in the sense that he was pants and picked up more wickets!!

I felt Anderson definitely could have got his inswinger out more to the RH's early on, just to get them playing more. He was getting so much movement with the outswinger, it was an easy leave! Broad was disappointing early on too.

Thought Cook had a decent day up till a point. Right decision to bat first, let down by his bowlers in the first session and the start of the last session but some of the tactics to Shami were unbelievable. Also not convinced Plunkett has it at Test level. Sure the tracks haven't suited him, but you've got to have something else when bowling reasonably quickly and short doesn't work. Just can't maintain a good length. He did look to be carrying a knock today, so I'll give him somewhat of a pass.

Gerry SA wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:No i am being backed up by odds Gerry. I have everything going for me with my take on the day.

root's average is over 47 , 

I suspect you picked that random figure because you thought cook had just driffted under it.

haha- you are so see through its ridiculous

Talking of Kevin Pietersen you see he played 100 Tests so his average is a fair reflection on his talent.

Root's average. Only gets runs at home.

India will bowl England out under their total.

Golly. It's lucky Root isn't playing in England then!

first things first.....Eng needs to take the 10th wkt.
Last time a test match side finished a day with opponent 9 wickets down......they took the 10the just before tea the next day

Stokes bowled pretty well yesterday. The lad has got pace, and he can learn with experience. He's not one of those military medium all-rounders, he's the genuine stuff, can bat, can bowl. Was very impressed with his performance on day one, the pace was back, he wasn't quite there in the first test.
BTW, I read Steven Finn has started training with England. Hope they don't set him back again, and he has become his own person to tell off Saker or anyone.

Don't know about everyone else but I found yesterday quite fascinating ...surely shows how a pitch that errs on the side of being a little unfair to batsmen generally makes for more watchable cricket.
The day , like Gaul , was divided into three parts ; a morning session in which England rather wasted their opportunities ; an afternoon in which they mostly made up for that ...and a final session in which India first resisted the tide and then turned it back , to finish arguably ahead on points ; though we will have to see what transpires today before making a definitive judgement on that.
It seems to be widely held that England were guilty of a poor choice of length in the morning session. I think that has been somewhat overstated ; cricinfo stats indicate that over the whole day "full" deliveries (some 113 of them) were punished to the tune of 126 runs - over 6.5 per over ! While length balls went at only 1.7 ; and took most of the wickets. This suggests that the best length on this particular pitch was actually a little shorter than the commentariat assumed. ( There were also a lot of "short" balls , which in my opinion were overused ; but I think they came mostly later in the day)
In fact I feel the main error by England in the morning was one of line. The pitch map shows a predominance of balls around fifth stump , which points to a preconceived plan to deny the Indian batsmen any opportunity to work the ball to leg ; and presumably to test their patience with a lot of balls passing their outside edge. This doesn't seem a bad plan (before the game , no one could know for sure how much movement would be on offer, despite the promising green tinge to the strip). Here the extravagant movement of the seam which actually occurred worked against England's interests , as it enabled the Indian batsmen to leave the ball more easily - and those balls which came back in were bouncing high enough that lbw appeals were a waste of time.
Now clearly the England bowlers should have adjusted their lines to allow for this ; and I am not entirely sure why it took them so long to do so. Though I suspect the Lord's slope , which has thrown a lot of bowlers off at times , may have had something to do with it. For all the complaints about missed opportunities , Vijay came close to dismissal on several occasions : Prior's drop , and a couple that went through gaps in the cordon ; so the limitations of the attack plan may not have been as obvious to those on the field as it appeared to watchers from above. India won the session - probably would have even had Prior taken the second chance off Ali.
After lunch England did indeed amend their lines - and a lessening of the seam movement helped as well. Anderson and Stokes in particular were very good in this period , and the best efforts of Pujara and Rahane were insufficient to stop the hosts from regaining any ground conceded in the early session. At tea it looked as if India would struggle to get much beyond 200 ; a view that was enhanced by the somewhat unfortunate dismissal of Son of Roger shortly after the break to a dubious lbw call.
But from there it went downhill for England due to a number of factors. First I think we should give due credit to Rahane and Kumar . Quite simply , they both played very well. Secondly the ball had softened , and given the lush surface , reverse was unlikely to be a factor. Added to which the pitch seemed to have settled down to a degree. And of course finally the bowlers had started to feel the effects of a lot of bowling at Trent Bridge only a few days ago : this was always going to be a risk from inserting India , though one which was surely justified by the appearance of the pitch at the toss. So inevitably the Indian resistance morphed into some Indian free scoring ; and if the two wickets with the new ball wrested things back a bit England's way , it may not have been quite enough for the local team's comfort.
Incidentally (though I had quit for the night and did not see it) I do think criticism of Cook for his tactics at the end of the day are a little overblown. Generally I detest the tactic of giving the better of two batsmen free singles in late innings partnerships (and I will be very annoyed if it happens this morning) ; but last night when Anderson bowled to Shami with three slips and six boundary riders it is surely possible the idea was not so much to defend (there were only a dozen balls left in the day , after all) as to entice the Indians to allow Anderson a few of those balls at the just arrived number eleven ? Just a thought...
Anyway that is it for now. Agree with comment above that if India shaded the day they may still not have done enough to redress the advantage England gained from winning the toss. But that will be decided as we go on. Hope the weather stays fair.

Regarding the morning session

We just missed 1 99/100 catch in the morning(prior from Ali) and 2 relatively easy ones as well. I wouldn't blame the bowlers . India edged the whole session , many went through gaps .

England didn't gain much advantage if any by winning toss as I feel India would have batted first anyway.