England Spin Options

First topic message reminder :

First time poster, keen cricket fan though football is my main game. Was just wondering who you all would play as a front line spinner for England? I'm no expert on cricket so is there any hidden gems apart from the obvious names?

Hey guildford...still pushing the Batty Bandwagon ? It's gathering momentum   

In place of Bell though ? Moeen at four would worry me...didn't like the way he got out to that short ball , second such dismissal this summer. I think Ali deserves to stay for now , his bowling is not top line but he is doing a decent job for a man who should probably only be operating as a back up part time spinner. Not easy bowling spin to these Indians on non-turning tracks either....
To be honest I still can't fit a full time spinner in yet. Stokes batting hardly warrants promotion to six , new keeper will either be green or a non batter...and four seamers are surely essential.
If they can use all your twelve or thirteen fielders it would make things a lot easier for Kerrigan or whoever though   

Hi Alfie - didn't really mean that Batty comes in for Moeen. Was really trying to make the point (admittedly in a clumsy way) that just because a full time spinner comes in doesn't automatically mean Moeen has to be ditched.

At the moment, I'm leaving out Prior obviously, dropping Bell and resting Broad. In comes Batty, Woakes, Read or Buttler and a batsman. I know the maths don't work - nothing seems to!

Good to see England at least has spin options, our cupboard is bare.

MOEEN is doing a decent job so far this series, 7 wickets at an average of 38 is pretty good against the Indians 

Actually been better than I thought he would be with the ball. He's got a good action, gives it a good rip. Just needs to become more consistent, and gain experience and improve. 

As I've said before he could become a much better Samit Patel.

By the way, is Samit P anywhere in the selectorial frame?

Olly wrote:MOEEN is doing a decent job so far this series, 7 wickets at an average of 38 is pretty good against the Indians 

Actually been better than I thought he would be with the ball. He's got a good action, gives it a good rip. Just needs to become more consistent, and gain experience and improve. 

As I've said before he could become a much better Samit Patel.

He already is better than him!

4 wickets for Rashid today as he bowled Yorkshire to the top of the table...

Biltong wrote:Good to see England at least has spin options, our cupboard is bare.

The seamers and batting isn't too shabby though Bilt!

Have you not rated Tahir during his run in the side? Looked an excellent bowler at county level but seems to have flattered to deceive during the step up, as so many spinners often do.

Too late!

James Tredwell took 4 for 7 from almost 13 overs as he hepled bowl his on loan side Sussex to victory over Warks at Horsham yesterday.

Moeen Ali isn't long term option..

I like Borthwick but bowling spin in Durham isn;t going to happen reguarly...Kerrigan, should get another go at some stage, and i think he will do better second time round...Rashid fasicnates me..very good all-round cricketer good enough to bat top 6, and a better bowler then Mo..

freemo wrote:Moeen Ali isn't long term option..

I like Borthwick but bowling spin in Durham isn;t going to happen reguarly...Kerrigan, should get another go at some stage, and i think he will do better second time round...Rashid fasicnates me..very good all-round cricketer good enough to bat top 6, and a better bowler then Mo..

Don't think Rashid is anywhere good enough at moment to bat in the top six at Test Level. Doubt he's even one of the best 20 batsmen in the country.

freemo wrote:Moeen Ali isn't long term option..

I like Borthwick but bowling spin in Durham isn;t going to happen reguarly...Kerrigan, should get another go at some stage, and i think he will do better second time round...Rashid fasicnates me..very good all-round cricketer good enough to bat top 6, and a better bowler then Mo..

Pretty harsh on Ali who has started very well. He might not be the answer long-term, why do you consider Rashid to be a better bowler? Remember there have been quite a few English leg-spinners tried at Test level who didn't do anything, its a very hard transition for a legspinner. Look at Tahir for SA, an excellent FC record but his Test career could well be over as he just leaked too many runs.

Also no way is Rashid good enough to bat top 6 in Tests

Moeen scored a ton against Sri Lanka, but I wasn't impressed with the way he didn't try to farm the strike as much as I thought he could.

In this series, his batting has gone downhill was his spin bowling has really come on. Not sure how much that is him and how much is the Indian batsman capitulating, but it's an amazing turnaround. Michael Vaughan has suggested that Ali could play at 8 with Stokes coming in at 6, which is definitely an option if Ali's bowling keeps coming on. Getting an England team 5 or 6 down then having Buttler, Ali and Broad coming at you at 7, 8 and 9 would be ridiculous.

I think Kerrigan is definitely the next cab of the rank, and he should go on the A tour as the primary spinner and get a call-up to the West Indies squad. I would have him stay in and around the squad before making his second appearance in the next subcontinent tour as part of a two-spinner attack with Ali. Having an off-spinner and a left-armer would give us a good chance on spinning decks, similar to when Swann and Panesar played together.

Rashid top 6? Nope. A good 8 at most.

Another 5 for Rashid yesterday in the Royal London. I think he's now the leading wicket taker in the comp. Best career figure for him in List A. (5/33). He's knocking...

Figures look good, but four of his five where tailenders.

People will still be putting Rashid forward for a test debut when hes 90

Haven't seen him play for a while but last I saw of him he bowled too slowly and didn't turn it enough. Plus there were questions about his attitude. If he's gone away and worked on some things and keeps performing then he'll be worth another look at, but right now there are rightly quite a few above him in the pecking order.

Surely Moeen has done enough anyway for the time being? Even if his batting is of the number 7 or 8 variety, with Buttler followed by Woakes or Stokes the balance looks fine to me.

Surely Cooks in the squad to bamboozle India with some non spinning spin bowling.

His attitude seems to be (I hope) a thing of the past if it is even at all true - seems to be a handy excuse for anyone England pick and discard hastily. I think Boycott had a swipe at him a few years back so perhaps it comes from that. Anyway, his bowling is coming on impressively. He does bowl quicker, especially with the white ball (where he has improved the most).
 
I'm not sure how much more he's turning it now but he always had a variety of balls to bowl so I never thought that it was much of an issue for him. Control is/was his main problem and while he will bowl a loose delivery here and there -he's a legspinner so anyone who selects him needs to take that under consideration. England didn't originally and then underbowled him and wrecked his confidence.
 
His batting has not prospered as much this season but it's a big ask to be a leg spinning allrounder. Difficult art to master. He does have a century this season though. England might want to consider him for ODis or the Lions at least. He may be down the pecking order, but nobody really stands out on it so if he continues in this vain he want be far away.

Whereas I find the fashion of blaming the England management every time a young player fails to make the grade and is discarded a bit wearisome...

Anyway the issue with Rashid (or indeed Borthwick) for me is simple: bowling leg-spin at international level with any kind of success is hard. Really really hard. It has gotten a lot harder (IMO) with the evolution of the modern game placing emphasis on control (because batsmen like to get on with things) but also because leggies have IMO been harmed more than offies by the flatter wickets, shorter boundaries and heavier bats.

Because leggies bowl slower than offies in general, it is slightly easier for batsmen to run down the wicket to them and muscle the ball for 6 (note that also nowadays batsmen tend to read flight a bit better as there is more understanding of how to go about reading the flight of a ball). Also, the short balls tend to go for 6 a lot more than they used to: if you cast your mind back 8 or 10 years it was relatively rare for a short ball from a spinner to be hit for 6, but now we see 6s hit over extra-cover on the back foot, let alone that the long-hop often goes into the crowd and mid-wicket or square-leg.

Yet the actual art of bowling leg-spin has not inherently become any easier. Leggies will still bowl a number of bad balls, particularly those wanting to bowl "classical" leg-spin, i.e. give the ball a real rip. In the past these bad balls went for 4, or even 1 or 2 because you could cover some areas with outfielders. When they are being hit for 6 you can't do much about it.

Added to that, the current thinking seems to be to first pick players in ODI (50 over) cricket. In my view current 50 overs cricket is the toughest place to bowl leg-spin. In T20 you have batsmen constantly coming at you and trying to hit your good balls, so although you will go for runs you will also pick up wickets, and guys like Muirhead, Boyce and co seem to get by OK (England have had a number of young leggies first making their name in T20s as well: Borthwick, Beer, Waller...). In tests batsmen tend to be more watchful and less inclined to hit the short balls for 6s (particularly with boundary riders) so you can bowl yourself into some rythm. IN ODIs though batsmen are content to milk your good balls, and your bad balls tend to go the distance. Moreover the 4 fielders out rule is really harmful to the slower spinners.

All of this partly explains why there are very few if any leggies operating in internationals nowadays with much success. Look at Fawad Ahmed of Australia: perfectly decent leggie, gave it a rip, didn't bowl too much loose stuff, yet England took him for 6-7 an over comfortably and he didn't exactly pick up a bagful of wickets. Or Imran Tahir (admittedly less classical), or even Amit Mishra who has struggled to impose himself. Going back to when Steve Smith was a regular bowler, he did OK in T20s for a while but really struggled in ODIs. Borthwick when he first came into the England ODI side bowled perfectly reasonably, and went for 6 an over.

I haven't even talked about video analysis removing some of the mystery elements of a leg-spin. Or the Warne effect which has meant paradoxically that people are less willing to accept the odd bad ball (because Warne bowled so few).

So yeah, it's tough, really tough for young leggies at the moment.

Mooens a good enough option for now, but we do need to get something in place to give young spinners a chance

What about Borthwick?

im a huge fan of Borthwick, but he needs to bowl a hell of a lot more than he's doing now...maybe moving away from Durham would help...?

I was really excited by Borthwick when I first saw him play (which may have been one of his first big matches, it was a televised T20 match against Lancashire, he got a couple of cheapish wickets including Kyle Hogg with a dreadful long-hop in the last over, Lancs made 170odd on the back of I think a Stuart Law half-century and Durham chased it down thanks to some good late hitting from Albie Morkel).

However his bowling hasn't come on, mainly because he should have moved away from Durham a good few years ago. It's not too late of course (spinners can be late developpers) but he seems to be focusing more and more on his batting.

I was looking through the scorecard for Surrey's last second XI match as you do when I spotted amongst the names of the opposition someone who got a few mentions on this thread from three years ago and was for a time thought to be the next thing. Kent's Adam Riley.

I had completely forgotten about him. Checking cricinfo, his last first class match was in May 2016. In this week's second XI game (effectively reduced to one innings per side due to the weather) in which Surrey were pummelled by over 200 runs, he didn't bat or bowl. Rather sad.

Riley - yes I had forgotten all about him.  Is he treading water until Tredwell retires or gets dropped?

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Riley - yes I had forgotten all about him.  Is he treading water until Tredwell retires or gets dropped?

Riley's wait doesn't look as if it will end any time soon. As well as Tredwell, he now has to compete for a first team place with Yasir Shah who Kent have just signed on a short term contract. Shah is playing in their CC match today in place of Tredwell.

Never wanting to be accussed of a massive Surrey bias the England selectiors have once again shown their desperation at the situation regarding spinner development by putting 18 year old Amar Vidri  into the Lions training squad off the back of one innings of CC bowling.

Gooseberry wrote:Never wanting to be accussed of a massive Surrey bias the England selectiors have once again shown their desperation at the situation regarding spinner development by putting 18 year old Amar Vidri  into the Lions training squad off the back of one innings of CC bowling.

Goose - ok, I'll bite. Virdi's call up has been on the back of other performances as well, particularly the England under 19s. Anyway, aren't you the the one forever banging on about Championship performances having no relevance to Test cricket?

It's worth emphasising that he hasn't been called up into the Lions squad but just invited to train with them. I feel looking further at and trying to encourage and develop a young player who has been identified as possibly having what it takes is a good thing, particularly in the company of players a bit further up the professional ladder.

I haven't seen much of Virdi at Surrey but he's been pulling up trees in the seconds for over a year. I believe he could go a long way in the game. In the modern era, he will though probably have to work on his batting too and perhaps also his fitness and fielding (when a friend saw him in the nets at Guildford recently, he refused to believe he was 18 and commented on him looking ''nearer to 48'' - to be fair to all, Virdi has probably got the longest beard in the English game which makes him seem much older!).

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Never wanting to be accussed of a massive Surrey bias the England selectiors have once again shown their desperation at the situation regarding spinner development by putting 18 year old Amar Vidri  into the Lions training squad off the back of one innings of CC bowling.

Goose - ok, I'll bite. Virdi's call up has been on the back of other performances as well, particularly the England under 19s. Anyway, aren't you the the one forever banging on about Championship performances having no relevance to Test cricket?

It's worth emphasising that he hasn't been called up into the Lions squad but just invited to train with them. I feel looking further at and trying to encourage and develop a young player who has been identified as possibly having what it takes is a good thing, particularly in the company of players a bit further up the professional ladder.

I haven't seen much of Virdi at Surrey but he's been pulling up trees in the seconds for over a year. I believe he could go a long way in the game. In the modern era, he will though probably have to work on his batting too and perhaps also his fitness and fielding (when a friend saw him in the nets at Guildford recently, he refused to believe he was 18 and commented on him looking ''nearer to 48'' - to be fair to all, Virdi has probably got the longest beard in the English game which makes him seem much older!).

"Other performances"  meaning 6 for 248 over the 3 games he played for the U19s?  As for his batting the only games cricinfo lists hes scored a total of 34 in 4 innings and batted at 11 in the youth tests. Im not sure what trees hes been pulling up for the Surrey second XI but its not been first class games. Yes its true I do think bangiung a few hundred runs and taking a couple of 5 fers in county cvricket is no indiciation of real class (Whos even heard of Sangakarra? Doubt he will ever play for England) .... but there is some relevance in being deemed good enough to actually get to play in it and having had some experience even at that low a level before stepping up to the grade above.

Yes it is just to train with and obviously I am being a bit jokey with the whole Surrey thing here. Of course I dont have issue with devleopment spots being given and England looking at the long term nurturing of players, theres an existing system for that of course. And aruably he gets to train with a higher quality squad of players at Surrey on a week to week basis (trying not to make any cutting reamrks about your other spinners slow bowlers).

My point here really was this again evidences just how far left field England are looking in trying to identify a specialist spinner not just for now but for a few years times. Yes its good they arent sitting on their laurels but concerning they are having to fish around so much to find anyone who has any potential at all.

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Never wanting to be accussed of a massive Surrey bias the England selectiors have once again shown their desperation at the situation regarding spinner development by putting 18 year old Amar Vidri  into the Lions training squad off the back of one innings of CC bowling.

Goose - ok, I'll bite. Virdi's call up has been on the back of other performances as well, particularly the England under 19s. Anyway, aren't you the the one forever banging on about Championship performances having no relevance to Test cricket?

It's worth emphasising that he hasn't been called up into the Lions squad but just invited to train with them. I feel looking further at and trying to encourage and develop a young player who has been identified as possibly having what it takes is a good thing, particularly in the company of players a bit further up the professional ladder.

I haven't seen much of Virdi at Surrey but he's been pulling up trees in the seconds for over a year. I believe he could go a long way in the game. In the modern era, he will though probably have to work on his batting too and perhaps also his fitness and fielding (when a friend saw him in the nets at Guildford recently, he refused to believe he was 18 and commented on him looking ''nearer to 48'' - to be fair to all, Virdi has probably got the longest beard in the English game which makes him seem much older!).

"Other performances"  meaning 6 for 248 over the 3 games he played for the U19s?  As for his batting the only games cricinfo lists hes scored a total of 34 in 4 innings and batted at 11 in the youth tests. Im not sure what trees hes been pulling up for the Surrey second XI but its not been first class games. Yes its true I do think bangiung a few hundred runs and taking a couple of 5 fers in county cvricket is no indiciation of real class (Whos even heard of Sangakarra? Doubt he will ever play for England) .... but there is some relevance in being deemed good enough to actually get to play in it and having had some experience even at that low a level before stepping up to the grade above.

Yes it is just to train with and obviously I am being a bit jokey with the whole Surrey thing here. Of course I dont have issue with devleopment spots being given and England looking at the long term nurturing of players, theres an existing system for that of course. And aruably he gets to train with a higher quality squad of players at Surrey on a week to week basis (trying not to make any cutting reamrks about your other spinners slow bowlers).

My point here really was this again evidences just how far left field England are looking in trying to identify a specialist spinner not just for now but for a few years times. Yes its good they arent sitting on their laurels but concerning they are having to fish around so much to find anyone who has any potential at all.

Goose - although you've characteristically got things wrong on the stats [if only England's slow bowlers had your consistency], I'll allow you to put the blame here at cricinfo's door. They present the stats of Amar Virdi and G (for Guramar) S Virdi as being for two cricketers when in fact they are one and the same. If you look at the latter's profile, you'll see returns since last month including 3/15, 4/24, 5/54, 6/77 and 7/33 against other first class county second XIs in Championship and Trophy games.

I don't think it's wrong at all or even particularly left field to get a young guy like Virdi involved to a limited extent with the Lions. Just look at Mason Crane. He's only 20 but has now played two international t20s. I know you were sniffy the other day about his combined stats but he contributed to our wins in both the games he played, firstly with a very economical spell and secondly with a key wicket. Sure, it would be great to have both in the same game but, above anything else, he didn't look out of place and it didn't seem a crazy decision at all to pick him. No one is suggesting Virdi be picked for England or even the Lions at this stage. However, there's no reason to rule him out of future contention and a bit of extra preparation now can only help.

Ah righto that makes a bit more sense!
That is much better and a bit more understandable.

Like I said I take your point regarding young players and I don't have any great issue with them being fast tracked if they have done anything to really show more than just " a nice natural action" . Those second XI stats do show he has indeed been tearing up trees.

Its taken a long time in the past to bring through guys like Rashid who had a number of very good seasons with Yorkshire before being allowed to carry drinks then get ignored. The rapid rise of kids like Hameed and crane does show a shift in attitude toward not demanding 30 years of mediocre performances on the county circuit and a recognition that theres more to be gained by pitching kids into the performance programmes and senior squads sooner rather than later. The county game is becoming an irrelevance and isn't in itself a breeding ground in itself for test players (if we ignore the likes of Jennings)

Gooseberry wrote:Ah righto that makes a bit more sense!
That is much better and a bit more understandable.

Like I said I take your point regarding young players and I don't have any great issue with them being fast tracked if they have done anything to really show more than just " a nice natural action" . Those second XI stats do show he has indeed been tearing up trees.

Its taken a long time in the past to bring through guys like Rashid who had a number of very good seasons with Yorkshire before being allowed to carry drinks then get ignored. The rapid rise of kids like Hameed and crane does show a shift in attitude toward not demanding 30 years of mediocre performances on the county circuit and a recognition that theres more to be gained by pitching kids into the performance programmes and senior squads sooner rather than later. The county game is becoming an irrelevance and isn't in itself a breeding ground in itself for test players (if we ignore the likes of Jennings)

Thanks, Goose. I don't fully agree with your final sentence but understand what is behind it. Anyway, you might soon also be able to say as well ''the likes of Stoneman''.

It was announced yesterday that Simon Kerrigan, although remaining on Lancs' playing staff, will focus on coaching across their different age ranges and teams. He views his own form currently as at ''an unacceptable level''.

Admittedly, there are greater tragedies in the world but still very sad.

Im glad someone got this back on topic, i read on cricinfo that Amar Virdi of Surrey is someone who is being looked at quite a lot by the ECB as a prospect in the future

Yeah I scoffed at the desperation oif him being called up to the Lions over the winter...but hes really hit the ground running this county season (as has Dawson).
Moeen, Crane and Leach have barely bowled a ball between them so far so theres good opportunity for another wonderkid to make an impression in whats usually not a good time of year for spinners.
Still hes surely a long way off playing, and Englad remain lacking in this department. It reamins a worry for all formats with Rashid not having bowled a competitive ball since early march. Looking at IPL theres a large number of "mystery" spinners ( chuckers) coming through from the Asian nations who are bring variations in short form cricket you simply wont see in the English game at all. How many of those will also be forces in test cricket is another question, but regardless England are lagging behind pretty much every test team.

I really want to see Leach bowl more and make a statement about his readiness for to play the summer tests. As it is hes only bowled 3 overs in the county season so far....which maybe flags where some of teh problems for English cricket stem from. If the best wicket taking spinner in recent years cant get a bowl then why woudl counties invest heavily in spinners.

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Never wanting to be accussed of a massive Surrey bias the England selectiors have once again shown their desperation at the situation regarding spinner development by putting 18 year old Amar Vidri  into the Lions training squad off the back of one innings of CC bowling.

Goose - ok, I'll bite. Virdi's call up has been on the back of other performances as well, particularly the England under 19s. Anyway, aren't you the the one forever banging on about Championship performances having no relevance to Test cricket?

It's worth emphasising that he hasn't been called up into the Lions squad but just invited to train with them. I feel looking further at and trying to encourage and develop a young player who has been identified as possibly having what it takes is a good thing, particularly in the company of players a bit further up the professional ladder.

I haven't seen much of Virdi at Surrey but he's been pulling up trees in the seconds for over a year. I believe he could go a long way in the game. In the modern era, he will though probably have to work on his batting too and perhaps also his fitness and fielding (when a friend saw him in the nets at Guildford recently, he refused to believe he was 18 and commented on him looking ''nearer to 48'' - to be fair to all, Virdi has probably got the longest beard in the English game which makes him seem much older!).

Gooseberry - hopefully 14 wickets in three innings this season has reassured you there's a bit about Virdi. He certainly doesn't look out of place in CC1: not just the wickets but good control, too. He just took 6 for 100 or so v Worcs in over 40 overs on a depressing Oval road of a pitch. And some of those he's dismissed this season are, to say the least, rather useful frontline batsmen. But it's surely much too early to bring him into the England frame. If he continues to have a good 2018 then maybe take him on a Lions' tour this winter.

Simon ..as per my previous post absolutely yes its great to see that hes hit the ground running, especially where others have struggled or simply not played. England are desperately short on spinners, and my initial comment regarding his call up for the Lions was more to do with just how far from estavblished players that they were being forced to look rather than an attack on Vidri and his potential.

Going back to Leach ...well cant complain hes not getting to bowl now after 46 overs in an innings this weekend then bat to save the game. Not great results with the ball, but I assume a pretty flat pitch given several England bowlers struggled to make an impact in the game.

Worth noting that Virdi's haul in the cc this season currently stands at 20 wickets @17.95