Hungarian GP Thread (Contains Quali/Race spoilers) - Sponsored by who cares

[GSC]

First topic message reminder :

Track: Hungaroring. Permanent circuit.

Race start time: 1pm UK time Sunday (2pm local).

Laps: 70.

Track length: 4.381 km.

Tyre allocation: Medium (white) and soft (yellow).

DRS Zones: Two with one detection point – pit straight and between Turns One and Two.

Driver steward: Emanuele Pirro.

Lap record: Michael Schumacher - 1:19.071 (Ferrari; 2004).

2013 pole: Lewis Hamilton - 1:19.388 (Mercedes).

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Thursday 24th July
2pm - Drivers' Press Conference

Friday 25th July
8.45am – Hungarian GP Practice One
12.45pm – Hungarian GP Practice Two

Saturday 26th July
9.45am – Hungarian GP Practice Three
12pm – Hungarian GP Qualifying

Sunday 27th July
12pm - The 2014 Hungarian GP – Race

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Lewis Hamilton is tied with Michael Schumacher as the most successful driver of all-time in Hungary having won the race on four occasions. The Mercedes man broke his duck for the Silver Arrows at the Hungaroing last year and another win in 2014 would make it three in a row at the venue.

Jenson Button is the only other current driver to have won the race on multiple occasions, whilst Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen have also both stood atop the podium in 2003 and 2005 respectively.

2013 result: 1. Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes); 2. Kimi Raikkonen (Lotus); 3. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull); 4. Mark Webber (Red Bull); 5. Fernando Alonso (Ferrari); 6. Romain Grosjean (Lotus); 7. Jenson Button (McLaren); 8. Felipe Massa (Ferrari); 9. Sergio Perez (McLaren); 10. Pastor Maldonado (Lotus).

Last five winners in Hungary: 2013: Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes); 2012: Lewis Hamilton (McLaren); 2011: Jenson Button (McLaren); 2010: Mark Webber (Red Bull); 2009: Lewis Hamilton (McLaren).

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Pirelli will bring the white-marked medium and yellow-banded soft tyres to the Hungaroring, as was the case in 2013.

“The Hungaroring is a relatively slow-speed track, but the race is often run in hot conditions, increasing the work on the tyres. To provide a wide working range and increase opportunities for strategy, the medium and the soft tyres will be brought to Hungary.,” the Italian firm said.

[Fernando]

Brilliant race, great drives from the podium boys. For all Hamiltons issues, Rosberg only leads by 11 points. That will hurt. Don't think the strategy argument is a big story, Toto Wolff blaming safety car for NR not winning. Rosberg had no pace all day & was nowhere near LH gearbox. Rosberg isn't a ruthless overtaker, unlike Hamilton. That move on Vergne was brilliant. Cracking stuff all round.

Well Toto ain't wrong he'd have been off into the distance but for the SC. What cost Rosberg wasn't his pace that was there as you can see by him reeling the front 3 in in 8 laps. Was having to go around again for the 1st SC which plonked him into the midfield. If he had kept infront their is was game over really so you can't say all the bad luck is going to Lewis now.

I suspect this will be roundly ignored or replied to in a stupid comment from someone with red tinted Hamilton glasses on. Hamilton fans don't like the truth without that 1st SC he'd have been a long way behind Nico.

nando after the first SC Nico was 5th and LH was 13th

so come on lets not talk nonsense.

The SC may have cost him the race- but even at that point - he was still 8 ahead of his championship rival!!

^ That's the point thought Mysti If Rosberg didn't have to do a 2nd lap under the SC he'd retained the lead have been long gone ahead it seems like RB last year that their setup to lead from the front and not so much overtaking

[Bull]

Nando no point arguing with him, let him love Ham.

[mystiroakey]

Brilliant race, great drives from the podium boys. For all Hamiltons issues, Rosberg only leads by 11 points. That will hurt. Don't think the strategy argument is a big story, Toto Wolff blaming safety car for NR not winning. Rosberg had no pace all day & was nowhere near LH gearbox. Rosberg isn't a ruthless overtaker, unlike Hamilton. That move on Vergne was brilliant. Cracking stuff all round.

Well Toto ain't wrong he'd have been off into the distance but for the SC. What cost Rosberg wasn't his pace that was there as you can see by him reeling the front 3 in in 8 laps. Was having to go around again for the 1st SC which plonked him into the midfield. If he had kept infront their is was game over really so you can't say all the bad luck is going to Lewis now.

I suspect this will be roundly ignored or replied to in a stupid comment from someone with red tinted Hamilton glasses on. Hamilton fans don't like the truth without that 1st SC he'd have been a long way behind Nico.

nando after the first SC Nico was 5th and LH was 13th

so come on lets not talk nonsense.

The SC may have cost him the race- but even at that point - he was still 8 ahead of his championship rival!!

You've entirely missed my point Mysti. If Rosberg didn't have to do a 2nd lap under the SC he'd retained the lead have been long gone

i already explained if there was no SC he would have won. what point are you not getting here!

and losing 5 places is a lot easier to  deal with than losing 21 and starting from the pits because your car blows up!!

[mystiroakey]

Nando no point arguing with him, let him love Ham.

Its not about  loving ham- its about others hating him.

good drivers recover from 5th in the best car- bad ones dont!

[dyrewolfe]

Nando no point arguing with him, let him love Ham.

I love Ham too...especially with Mustard...   

[mystiroakey]

"Also glad Lewis ignored team orders to make way for Nico, given Rosberg wasn't even close enough to pass without Lewis slowing significantly. Could understand if he was obviously holding Nico up, but that wasn't the case. Hope there's no fall-out from that."


The haters wont get that obvious point Dyre- He should have given it up!! even though he couldt get close   

[Fernando]

Brilliant race, great drives from the podium boys. For all Hamiltons issues, Rosberg only leads by 11 points. That will hurt. Don't think the strategy argument is a big story, Toto Wolff blaming safety car for NR not winning. Rosberg had no pace all day & was nowhere near LH gearbox. Rosberg isn't a ruthless overtaker, unlike Hamilton. That move on Vergne was brilliant. Cracking stuff all round.

Well Toto ain't wrong he'd have been off into the distance but for the SC. What cost Rosberg wasn't his pace that was there as you can see by him reeling the front 3 in in 8 laps. Was having to go around again for the 1st SC which plonked him into the midfield. If he had kept infront their is was game over really so you can't say all the bad luck is going to Lewis now.

I suspect this will be roundly ignored or replied to in a stupid comment from someone with red tinted Hamilton glasses on. Hamilton fans don't like the truth without that 1st SC he'd have been a long way behind Nico.

nando after the first SC Nico was 5th and LH was 13th

so come on lets not talk nonsense.

The SC may have cost him the race- but even at that point - he was still 8 ahead of his championship rival!!

You've entirely missed my point Mysti. If Rosberg didn't have to do a 2nd lap under the SC he'd retained the lead have been long gone

i already explained if there was no SC he would have won. what point are you not getting here!

and losing 5 places is a lot easier to  deal with than losing 21 and starting from the pits because your car blows up!!

Duly edited that bit.

It's not hard when you can change everything on your car like Vettel in Abu Dhabi hence why Hamilton could make his way through the field easier then Nico did because he was able to break Parc Ferme it also helps when your 1-1.5 seconds faster on race pace. (Was lucky to avoid a penalty like Ericsson in Germany) . Rosberg was setup to lead from the front and go off in the distance soon as he got in the pack he was in trouble

[dyrewolfe]

"Also glad Lewis ignored team orders to make way for Nico, given Rosberg wasn't even close enough to pass without Lewis slowing significantly. Could understand if he was obviously holding Nico up, but that wasn't the case. Hope there's no fall-out from that."


The haters wont get that obvious point Dyre- He should have given it up!! even though he couldt get close   

Ha! Let the haters hate. Anyone with 1 working eye could see Nico wasn't exactly trying to dive up the inside and having the door slammed in his face.

Only time Hamilton obviously shut the door on Rosberg was after the final pit stop when it was a straight fight to the finish, when he was having to defend on worn tyres. Hard but fair IMO...

[Bull]

Yeah no point hating on that. He wasn't close and lewis would have lost too much time to Fernando and Riccardo. Nico even said int he interview the team told him Lewis would let him pass.

[mystiroakey]

Yeah no point hating on that. He wasn't close and lewis would have lost too much time to Fernando and Riccardo. Nico even said int he interview the team told him Lewis would let him pass.

not what olly was saying........

Which in fairness started this very minor dispute

[CaledonianCraig]

Rosberg started in pole whilst Hamilton started from pit lane. Lets remember everyone here would agree the Mercedes is a cut above the rest so no way can one safety car account for 20 places or so.

The point people here should focus on is Veregne. Rosberg followed him for umpteeen laps without even attempting a pass (Mercedes V Torro Rosso here folks). After Rosberg pitted, Hamilton dealt with Veregne far differently passing him immediately on a part of the track now known for overtaking. Why such a difference?

[Fernando]

Rosberg started in pole whilst Hamilton started from pit lane. Lets remember everyone here would agree the Mercedes is a cut above the rest so no way can one safety car account for 20 places or so.

The point people here should focus on is Veregne. Rosberg followed him for umpteeen laps without even attempting a pass (Mercedes V Torro Rosso here folks). After Rosberg pitted, Hamilton dealt with Veregne far differently passing him immediately on a part of the track now known for overtaking. Why such a difference?

Because like all times you start in the pitlane you are out of Parc Ferme rules therefore Lewis can set his car up for overtaking because he had a lot to do unlike Nico's who's was for leading from the front like last year when RB dominated when they weren't stuck in the pack.

[dyrewolfe]

Rosberg started in pole whilst Hamilton started from pit lane. Lets remember everyone here would agree the Mercedes is a cut above the rest so no way can one safety car account for 20 places or so.

The point people here should focus on is Veregne. Rosberg followed him for umpteeen laps without even attempting a pass (Mercedes V Torro Rosso here folks). After Rosberg pitted, Hamilton dealt with Veregne far differently passing him immediately on a part of the track now known for overtaking. Why such a difference?

Because like all times you start in the pitlane you are out of Parc Ferme rules therefore Lewis can set his car up for overtaking because he had a lot to do unlike Nico's who's was for leading from the front like last year when RB dominated when they weren't stuck in the pack.  

So I guess we'll have to wait for a race where Rosberg starts from the pit lane, with Hamilton on the front row, before we can draw a true comparison?   

[CaledonianCraig]

Rosberg started in pole whilst Hamilton started from pit lane. Lets remember everyone here would agree the Mercedes is a cut above the rest so no way can one safety car account for 20 places or so.

The point people here should focus on is Veregne. Rosberg followed him for umpteeen laps without even attempting a pass (Mercedes V Torro Rosso here folks). After Rosberg pitted, Hamilton dealt with Veregne far differently passing him immediately on a part of the track now known for overtaking. Why such a difference?

Because like all times you start in the pitlane you are out of Parc Ferme rules therefore Lewis can set his car up for overtaking because he had a lot to do unlike Nico's who's was for leading from the front like last year when RB dominated when they weren't stuck in the pack.  

Yes that is a valid point you make but you miss one pertinent fact that Hamilton, plain and simply, is quicker than Rosberg at Hungaroring. All three practice sessions and Hamilton was top of the time sheets until qualy plus his record on the track here is like night and day to Rosberg's.

[Fernando]

Rosberg started in pole whilst Hamilton started from pit lane. Lets remember everyone here would agree the Mercedes is a cut above the rest so no way can one safety car account for 20 places or so.

The point people here should focus on is Veregne. Rosberg followed him for umpteeen laps without even attempting a pass (Mercedes V Torro Rosso here folks). After Rosberg pitted, Hamilton dealt with Veregne far differently passing him immediately on a part of the track now known for overtaking. Why such a difference?

Because like all times you start in the pitlane you are out of Parc Ferme rules therefore Lewis can set his car up for overtaking because he had a lot to do unlike Nico's who's was for leading from the front like last year when RB dominated when they weren't stuck in the pack.  

Yes that is a valid point you make but you miss one pertinent fact that Hamilton, plain and simply, is quicker than Rosberg at Hungaroring. All three practice sessions and Hamilton was top of the time sheets until qualy plus his record on the track here is like night and day to Rosberg's.

P1 - 0.183
P2 - 0.238
P3 - 0.047

For something that's a specialty of Lewis it's not a gap that big to be honest. He could of pulled out a bigger gap in Qualifying but we're never know now. That being said we've seen bigger gaps over the season than those.

[CaledonianCraig]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico? All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings. After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

[Fernando]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico?  All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings.  After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

Not really much point comparing records tbh CC, Apart from last year Lewis has always been in a superior car apart from last year when Nico's engine failed during the race. You have the best mechanics in the world apart from the brakes there wouldn't be much of an issue to get a feel as it will have been tested throughout practice with various setups.

[Gerry SA]

Ricciardo didn't luck out?

He was only in position to win the race as the first SC left the top 4 drivers unable to pit at the same time.

As for Vettel being 'average' jog on. When the overrated Hamilton wins 4 WDCs then you can talk.

[mystiroakey]

riccardo deserved the win- took his chance well. That is what sport is about.

calling it luck is bitter nonsense

[GSC]

What if it's bad luck

[CaledonianCraig]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico?  All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings.  After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

Not really much point comparing records tbh CC, Apart from last year Lewis has always been in a superior car apart from last year when Nico's engine failed during the race. You have the best mechanics in the world apart from the brakes there wouldn't be much of an issue to get a feel as it will have been tested throughout practice with various setups.

There is no grounds though to even try to debate that Lewis was faster than Nico today and across the whole of the meet. Even if you wish to use his chance to change settings it doesn't hold up as Lewis was the quicker driver in all parts of the meeting barring quali so why are we even having this debate.

Fine dislike somebody but don't let it cloud your judgement. I am no fan of Seb but do believe I have congratulated him for his fine drive this season when he started towards the back of the grid but stormed through the field.

[Gerry SA]

riccardo deserved the win- took his chance well. That is what sport is about.

calling it luck is bitter nonsense

Absolute tosh...

Rosberg was strolling to victory before the SC came out. He was 10secs up on Bottas.

Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Alonso where all handicapped by missing the pit entry when the SC was deployed. Whereas Ricciardo, Button etc all benefited from it.

Ricciardo got lucky, but he capitalised on his luck.

[Don Caboose]

riccardo deserved the win- took his chance well. That is what sport is about.

calling it luck is bitter nonsense

Absolute tosh...

Rosberg was strolling to victory before the SC came out. He was 10secs up on Bottas.

Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Alonso where all handicapped by missing the pit entry when the SC was deployed. Whereas Ricciardo, Button etc all benefited from it.

Ricciardo got lucky, but he capitalised on his luck.  

Alonso was handicapped by missing the pit entry, but why was he still able to come 2nd and just miss out on the win? Rosberg just wasn't decisive while overtaking once in the field (Vergne and Hamilton).

There was nothing lucky about Ricciardo's win, as we saw in Montreal, when the chance is there he grabs it with both hands.

[Gerry SA]

I see a lot of negativity towards Sebastian Vettel on here...

Reality check, many of the all times greats have had the best car in their careers, yet none of them did what Sebastian has already achieved aged only 27.

And now because Ricciardo's having a few decent results against the 4 time WDC, Vettel's overrated/rubbish/average.

Vettel could retire tomorrow and he's already one of the all time greats.

[banbrotam]

riccardo deserved the win- took his chance well. That is what sport is about.

calling it luck is bitter nonsense

Absolute tosh...

Rosberg was strolling to victory before the SC came out. He was 10secs up on Bottas.

Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Alonso where all handicapped by missing the pit entry when the SC was deployed. Whereas Ricciardo, Button etc all benefited from it.

Ricciardo got lucky, but he capitalised on his luck.  

The 'tosh' here is you thinking that Rosberg was unlucky when he qualifies on pole, has clearly the fastest car, but can't dispense with one of the midfielders   

Next you'll be telling is that Hamilton's qualification fire was on his own

One of the reasons why it would be bad for racing if Rosberg won the WC was demonstrated here today. I've no issue with Lewis losing out to the wonderfully enthusiastic Ricardo or the ever magnificent Alosno - but not someone who has basically taken advantage of someones bad luck and some bad decisions

[Bull]

 If Rosberg won the WDC it would be bad for racing?

Why can't you just say they both have shown why they deserve the championship and we will see at the end of it all who gets it. Honestly to say something like this would be bad for racing is silly in my opinion. But each to their own.

[banbrotam]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico?  All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings.  After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

Not really much point comparing records tbh CC, Apart from last year Lewis has always been in a superior car apart from last year when Nico's engine failed during the race. You have the best mechanics in the world apart from the brakes there wouldn't be much of an issue to get a feel as it will have been tested throughout practice with various setups.

Are you seriously telling us that, if under the same conditions Rosberg is faster?

If so, can you tell me why when Rosberg has been behind Hamilton, when they're running similar strategies, he's not overtaken Lewis once?

I'll give Rosberg credit for his Canadian points as Hamilton's brake issues was self inflicted due to poor qualifying, well done to the German for managing his car with dodgy breaks to 2nd place. But let's not kid ourselves about any of his victories, which have been created by amazing good fortune (Monaco qualifying) or Hamilton car failures (Australia / Germany) or the daft Hamilton misjudgment at Austria

[banbrotam]

 If Rosberg won  the WDC it would be bad for racing?

Why can't you just say they both have shown why they deserve the championship and we will see at the end of it all who gets it. Honestly to say something like this would be bad for racing is silly in my opinion. But each to their own.  

I'll be honest and tell you that I won't be particularly impressed with Hamilton winning the WC either. Give me 2008 any time - inferior to the Ferrari for the first five or so races, daft steward decisions (note, that they've now been told to stop giving so many driving incident penalties) and yet he still wins

Do you think that if we had the RB / Ferrari been say, within 0.1 seconds, instead of the current 0.5, that Rosberg would cope with a car only marginally faster. No he wouldn't. The superior skills of Alonso would be more into play and he'd certainly be out raced by Ricardo

Look I'm all for the Webber's of this world and I've no issue with Rosberg. But I don't watch F1 to see nice guys race nicely and win. I watch to see exciting drivers like Alonso and Hamilton, who time and time again show what overtaking is all about

So yes, I think a Rosberg WC win would be poor for the sport, because neutral fans would clearly carp on about it been all about the car - when really it should be about the car and driver

[CaledonianCraig]

I see a lot of negativity towards Sebastian Vettel on here...

Reality check, many of the all times greats have had the best car in their careers, yet none of them did what Sebastian has already achieved aged only 27.  

And now because Ricciardo's having a few decent results against the 4 time WDC, Vettel's overrated/rubbish/average.

Vettel could retire tomorrow and he's already one of the all time greats.

It depends on how you want to judge all-time greats. In my eyes world titles for a car in a league of its own with a team-mate not seen as a particularly fantastic driver who is held back by bad luck is not something I will wet my pants about. Now if Vettel is an all-time great why is he being blown away by a newcomer to the team and one with far less F1 experience? I judge somebody's greatness on being successful even when the car is not the very best and always having the upper hand on their team-mates and Vettel has yet to demonstrate that.

And yes four world titles on the bounce may never be matched but lets not down play the great Adrian Newey's role in that success. Dig out a story from a month or two ago and either Horner or Red Bull owner says the team was built around Newey - that says a lot about his massive influence.

[sportform]

Ricciardo didn't luck out?

He was only in position to win the race as the first SC left the top 4 drivers unable to pit at the same time.

As for Vettel being 'average' jog on. When the overrated Hamilton wins 4 WDCs then you can talk.

Pretty sure Hamilton would have won World Championships if he was in that Red Bull.

Ricciardo did get in a position to win because of the safety cars but so did Alonso and Hamilton. Take the SC out of that race and Alonso and Hamilton wouldn't have had a chance of winning. Even with the SC Ricciardo stopped an extra time to Alonso and Hamilton and still had to catch up and pass them. That was not easy in Hungary. Rosberg was nowhere near Ricciardo on his two stops.

[sportform]

I see a lot of negativity towards Sebastian Vettel on here...

Reality check, many of the all times greats have had the best car in their careers, yet none of them did what Sebastian has already achieved aged only 27.  

And now because Ricciardo's having a few decent results against the 4 time WDC, Vettel's overrated/rubbish/average.

Vettel could retire tomorrow and he's already one of the all time greats.

Many of the all time great had a teammate who was allowed to race against them. Vettel had the best car in a one man team. Put Vettel further back in the grid and under pressure and he is not as good. Ricciardo has won two races this year, four podiums and more points than Vettel. Vettel has had two thirds.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I see a lot of negativity towards Sebastian Vettel on here...

Reality check, many of the all times greats have had the best car in their careers, yet none of them did what Sebastian has already achieved aged only 27.  

And now because Ricciardo's having a few decent results against the 4 time WDC, Vettel's overrated/rubbish/average.

Vettel could retire tomorrow and he's already one of the all time greats.

It depends on how you want to judge all-time greats. In my eyes world titles for a car in a league of its own with a team-mate not seen as a particularly fantastic driver who is held back by bad luck is not something I will wet my pants about. Now if Vettel is an all-time great why is he being blown away by a newcomer to the team and one with far less F1 experience? I judge somebody's greatness on being successful even when the car is not the very best and always having the upper hand on their team-mates and Vettel has yet to demonstrate that.

And yes four world titles on the bounce may never be matched but lets not down play the great Adrian Newey's role in that success. Dig out a story from a month or two ago and either Horner or Red Bull owner says the team was built around Newey - that says a lot about his massive influence.

So Vettel's time in the Toro Rosso where he became the youngest bloke to win a grand Prix and got multiple top five finishes in a pants car just what never happened?

[Fernando]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico?  All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings.  After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

Not really much point comparing records tbh CC, Apart from last year Lewis has always been in a superior car apart from last year when Nico's engine failed during the race. You have the best mechanics in the world apart from the brakes there wouldn't be much of an issue to get a feel as it will have been tested throughout practice with various setups.

There is no grounds though to even try to debate that Lewis was faster than Nico today and across the whole of the meet.  Even if you wish to use his chance to change settings it doesn't hold up as Lewis was the quicker driver in all parts of the meeting barring quali  so why are we even having this debate.

Fine dislike somebody but don't let it cloud your judgement.  I am no fan of Seb  but do believe I have congratulated him for his fine drive this season when he started towards the back of the grid but stormed through the field.

I have no qualms that Lewis was faster then Nico today but let's face it if Lewis wasn't able to alter his car under Parc Ferme do you think he'd have got as far as he did? he was struggling to overtake Vettel in the RB today for a while and he'd have had a lower top speed and more downforce on the car to go off into distance along with Nico.

I actually quite like Lewis as a driver very talent and quick it's just when you lads give credit to him but you won't others it makes me wish i had a towing rope to get some of you guys out of his bottom    (see my example at bottom of page)

Are you seriously telling us that, if under the same conditions Rosberg is faster?

If so, can you tell me why when Rosberg has been behind Hamilton, when they're running similar strategies, he's not overtaken Lewis once?

I'll give Rosberg credit for his Canadian points as Hamilton's brake issues was self inflicted due to poor qualifying, well done to the German for managing his car with dodgy breaks to 2nd place. But let's not kid ourselves about any of his victories, which have been created by amazing good fortune (Monaco qualifying) or Hamilton car failures (Australia / Germany) or the daft Hamilton misjudgment at Austria

At no point have i said Nico is faster then Lewis. That being said it's a lot closer then most people seem to reckon it's rarely been more then 0.5 over qualifying. If Nico was able to alter his setup out of Parc Ferme today i don't believe he'd have had an issue taking Vergne like he did.

consistency will always trump speed and aggressiveness over a season however lucky Nico has been apart from his non finish at Silverstone today was his 1st time off the podium.

This is the response when Vettel got 3rd in Abu Dhabi 2012 doing the same as Hamilton with a SC in the 1st stint too...

"Safety cars played a huge part in bringing the cars ahead to him (saved 20 seconds alone when changing a front wing) - as did teammates who were pitted against their will and sister teams falling over themselves to move aside"

"lets remember again that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so I'd fully have expected him to make light work of HRT's, Marussia's, Toro Rosso's, Force India's, Sauber's and William's and benefited from the crash between four cars as well I seem to recall. Once more a great drive aided by luck and a beast of a car"

"Ridiculous luck and timing of safety car's just paved the way for a Vettel charge. Everyone predicted he would finish top 10 in a dominant car without these events but what unfolded was quite frankly unbelievable and Alonso's title chance is now very slim.

Thought Vettel's driving was appaling in the first half of the race and then crying like a baby over the radio was just embarrassing. Also his foul language at the interview process was disgusting, certainly no role model and makes my hatred towards him increase"

[Guest]

Lol nando.

[CaledonianCraig]

All the same he was evidently the quicker driver and can we also see his Hungaroring record compared to Nico?  All evidence that the result today was more than just because he could change his settings.  After all it could be argued he was given a car rebuilt and had one out lap to get the feeling of it before the race.

Not really much point comparing records tbh CC, Apart from last year Lewis has always been in a superior car apart from last year when Nico's engine failed during the race. You have the best mechanics in the world apart from the brakes there wouldn't be much of an issue to get a feel as it will have been tested throughout practice with various setups.

There is no grounds though to even try to debate that Lewis was faster than Nico today and across the whole of the meet.  Even if you wish to use his chance to change settings it doesn't hold up as Lewis was the quicker driver in all parts of the meeting barring quali  so why are we even having this debate.

Fine dislike somebody but don't let it cloud your judgement.  I am no fan of Seb  but do believe I have congratulated him for his fine drive this season when he started towards the back of the grid but stormed through the field.

I have no qualms that Lewis was faster then Nico today but let's face it if Lewis wasn't able to alter his car under Parc Ferme do you think he'd have got as far as he did? he was struggling to overtake Vettel in the RB today for a while and he'd have had a lower top speed and more downforce on the car to go off into distance along with Nico.

I actually quite like Lewis as a driver very talent and quick it's just when you lads give credit to him but you won't others it makes me wish i had a towing rope to get some of you guys out of his bottom    (see my example at bottom of page)

If the comment is directed at me I think it is misdirected. I praise many drivers after great drives so why should Lewis Hamilton be any different? I wouldn't label myself a big Hamilton fan by any means but, in my opinion, he is a class above Nico Rosberg. True the title standings don't say that but this season is a bit like a handicap horse race with Hamilton carrying extra weight than Nico due to DNF's and freak happenings in qualifying.

[Fernando]

Lol nando.

Im sure you can figure which is you John   

Ironically both SC happened on Lap 9, Abu Dhabi is 15 laps shorter so if did that distance and not 70 laps it would of been identical on lap 23 instead of 38 too. Spooky  

Actually it's not aimed at you CC you called it a "Great Drive"  

[CaledonianCraig]

I see a lot of negativity towards Sebastian Vettel on here...

Reality check, many of the all times greats have had the best car in their careers, yet none of them did what Sebastian has already achieved aged only 27.  

And now because Ricciardo's having a few decent results against the 4 time WDC, Vettel's overrated/rubbish/average.

Vettel could retire tomorrow and he's already one of the all time greats.

It depends on how you want to judge all-time greats. In my eyes world titles for a car in a league of its own with a team-mate not seen as a particularly fantastic driver who is held back by bad luck is not something I will wet my pants about. Now if Vettel is an all-time great why is he being blown away by a newcomer to the team and one with far less F1 experience? I judge somebody's greatness on being successful even when the car is not the very best and always having the upper hand on their team-mates and Vettel has yet to demonstrate that.

And yes four world titles on the bounce may never be matched but lets not down play the great Adrian Newey's role in that success. Dig out a story from a month or two ago and either Horner or Red Bull owner says the team was built around Newey - that says a lot about his massive influence.

So Vettel's time in the Toro Rosso where he became the youngest bloke to win a grand Prix and got multiple top five finishes in a pants car just what never happened?

Err Liuzzi managed 6th in a Torro Rosso as well in 2007. I wonder what happened to him? And Bourdais had top ten finishes as well for Torro Rosso so the car wasn't that pants. Great win at Monza yes but pray tell what is happening this year? I can't recall other drivers I'd list as all-time greats being done over so greatly by a driver he was expected to dominate (Ricciardo). The only driver I'd put as perhaps an all-time great in F1 at the moment would be Alonso. Won world titles in cars not deemed the best in F1 and has never been dominated by a team-mate in F1 and can still churn out results in struggling cars/teams and finish high up in world title races.

Sure everyone will have their own gauge system for judging all-time greats - I have mines and others have theirs and nothing will change that.

[Gerry SA]

Craig

Going by your theory, Vettel's WDCs are devalued because he beat a weak team mate in a strong car.

So does that apply to Michael Schumacher as well? Schumacher's 7 WDCs his team mates where verstapen, Herbert and Barrichello. All three whom are proper worst than Webber.

[CaledonianCraig]

I would give credit to Schumacher though for winning world title when not in the fastest car but he had much that went for him so just because he has most world titles I wouldn't call him the greatest of all-time.

[Gerry SA]

I would give credit to Schumacher though for winning world title when not in the fastest car but he had much that went for him so just because he has most world titles I wouldn't call him the greatest of all-time.

IMO,

Juan Manuel Fangio is the Bradman of F1. In a league of his own. Unmatchable.

But Senna isn't too far behind him.

Those are my top 2.

Vettel could many one day join those two.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes I would put Senna right up there. I don't know enough about Fangio to say where I rate him to be honest but he does have a great reputation.

[Trebs]

Just watched the race. Great stuff.

The front four were completely screwed by the safety car timing, which is why Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas finished three or four places lower than they should have done. Alonso drove superbly to get that second place on tyres shot to pieces and it was a brilliant drive.

Hamilton should have allowed Rosberg past. What's Rosberg supposed to do, get right up behind him for several laps risking taking both cars off? They were on different strategies, and overall that has cost Mercedes as a whole points. At the end of the day, that comes before the individual drivers irrespective of the fact they are fighting for the title.

[mystiroakey]

  

[CaledonianCraig]

First of all Trebs the constructor's title is already in the bag such is the sheer scale of Mercedes domination this year so I don't buy it that Mercedes lost anything. In fact it could be argued they came out of the race with more integrity intact. How pathetic would it have looked if Hamilton (chasing hard cars closer to him in from than Rosberg behind) had pulled over to let Rosberg through? It wasn'the even as if Rosberg was right up his gearbox which he never was he couldn't close to less than a second adrift. On team radio that is what Hamilton was saying and sounded like he'did have pulled aside if Rosberg was closer but he wasn't so he didn't.  Plus remember Hamilton would have been as good as handing over more points to his only rival in the title race so it would have been a crazy thing to expect him to do.

The whole issue is now at breaking point you feel at Mercedes. Something will give in the coming races you feel but at least it keeps the race for the driver's title bubbling.

[mystiroakey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/28517704


wolf comments that they will not do something like that again and they were wrong to ask Hamilton to move over- Fair play..


Time to think Merc?? its a two horse race!- Its Lewis v Nico now. No one else can win the drivers and no one else can win the constructors.

They made a comment that they will not use team orders unless things significantly change and they need points for the constructors or to get a drivers win. The Irony is they have hit the point where no one else can win and they start team orders- Work that one out??

[liverbnz]

This GOAT debate and constant need to draw conclusions from every single race is extremely dull and pointless. Different drivers, diifferent cars, different regs, different competition and different scenarios = waste of time. It's beginning to look like the tennis board!
 
Anyway great race, that you couldn't keep your eyes of for one second. Another brilliant drive from Ricciardo who is looking every bit the top class driver, something I didn't have him down for this time last year. He looks hungry for success, whereas his partner looks half the driver he was. A winter move is surely on the cards for Vettel?
 
Alonso had another typically Alonso race. Just keeping himself in there despite having maybe the 4th/5th fastest car on the track. Perez has yet another accident and he is looking very much the amateur that McLaren seen and duly ditched him for. The Hulk can be excused given his level of performances so far this year, but FI are beginning to make some costly mistakes. Another solid race for Bottas too who was unlucky with the 1st safety car.
 
As for the Hamilton/Rosberg debate, I'm with Hamilton on this one. He was racing Rosberg and was well within his right to keep him behind. I hate team orders, it consititues match-fixing for me so I'm glad he ignored them. If I were Rosberg I'd be more worried about why, yet again, I couldn't overtake my teammate when it came down it. It's hard to ignore that if Hamilton's and Rosberg's luck had been reversed, Lewis would likley be miles in front by now.

[GSC]

Ultimately, Merc pay for both the car and Hamiltons wages. If he's told to move over because his teammate is on a different strategy he should. Dont be surprised if Rosberg gets his elbows out again. Merc won't take the Constructors title out the equation until it's sewn up. Williams are improving, RB gained massively on them a year ago. Reliability has been an issue lately. At the end of the day, the team always comes first.

Too much is being made of this gap. Rosbergs not going to overtake at this trackand expecting hhis teammate to move over as instructed. A. If he battles Lewis they'll lose time to the leaders. B. They risk an off or damage. C. If he sits in his gearbox, he wrecks his front tyres through understeer and overheats his brakes.

[mystiroakey]

GSC the odds on merc not getting the constructers is 1/1000

come on debate with some sense. It is sown up!

Wolff and Lauda have both come out and defended LH and that the team order was wrong. so i think if they can its time for you to get out of your fanboy love/hate(not sure which one it is tbh). They are not even backing themselves.

[CaledonianCraig]

A very valid point as well is that team orders weakens F1's image. We saw the damage it done with Shumacher at Ferrari and the FIA even tried to ban team orders in recent years. Just how bad would it have looked to viewers if Hamilton, right on the gearbox of Ricciardo and Alonso and a second ahead of Rosberg had backed off and pulled over to let Rosberg through? It would have been bad PR for F1, bad for the integity of Mercedes and would just have left an all-round bad taste in the mouth in my opinion.

[GSC]

People who aren't up Hamilton's arse are the fanboys now, Christ. I'll be a conspiracy theorist soon if the pattern holds

I've tried to be reasonable before now, if he's told to move he should, regardless of Toto and Lauda doing some firefighting post race.

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