Hungarian GP Thread (Contains Quali/Race spoilers) - Sponsored by who cares

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First topic message reminder :

Track: Hungaroring. Permanent circuit.

Race start time: 1pm UK time Sunday (2pm local).

Laps: 70.

Track length: 4.381 km.

Tyre allocation: Medium (white) and soft (yellow).

DRS Zones: Two with one detection point – pit straight and between Turns One and Two.

Driver steward: Emanuele Pirro.

Lap record: Michael Schumacher - 1:19.071 (Ferrari; 2004).

2013 pole: Lewis Hamilton - 1:19.388 (Mercedes).

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Thursday 24th July
2pm - Drivers' Press Conference

Friday 25th July
8.45am – Hungarian GP Practice One
12.45pm – Hungarian GP Practice Two

Saturday 26th July
9.45am – Hungarian GP Practice Three
12pm – Hungarian GP Qualifying

Sunday 27th July
12pm - The 2014 Hungarian GP – Race

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Lewis Hamilton is tied with Michael Schumacher as the most successful driver of all-time in Hungary having won the race on four occasions. The Mercedes man broke his duck for the Silver Arrows at the Hungaroing last year and another win in 2014 would make it three in a row at the venue.

Jenson Button is the only other current driver to have won the race on multiple occasions, whilst Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen have also both stood atop the podium in 2003 and 2005 respectively.

2013 result: 1. Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes); 2. Kimi Raikkonen (Lotus); 3. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull); 4. Mark Webber (Red Bull); 5. Fernando Alonso (Ferrari); 6. Romain Grosjean (Lotus); 7. Jenson Button (McLaren); 8. Felipe Massa (Ferrari); 9. Sergio Perez (McLaren); 10. Pastor Maldonado (Lotus).

Last five winners in Hungary: 2013: Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes); 2012: Lewis Hamilton (McLaren); 2011: Jenson Button (McLaren); 2010: Mark Webber (Red Bull); 2009: Lewis Hamilton (McLaren).

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Pirelli will bring the white-marked medium and yellow-banded soft tyres to the Hungaroring, as was the case in 2013.

“The Hungaroring is a relatively slow-speed track, but the race is often run in hot conditions, increasing the work on the tyres. To provide a wide working range and increase opportunities for strategy, the medium and the soft tyres will be brought to Hungary.,” the Italian firm said.

[mystiroakey]

And tbh why didnt LH get on  softs - then he could have had a chance himself to win. Even the Rosberg lovers must admit that LH is the better overtaker.

I understand teams want to mix strategy's so each other driver has less chance meeting untill the last few laps- but in this case there would have been much less chance in the cars coming together. MERC didnt expect vettel to spin and then LH to straight away take Vergne(therefore take track position after a pit-they expected Rosberg to come out ahead )- But as soon as that happened- They should have put both on the same stratergy- LH could have easily won with the two stop soft strategy.

[mystiroakey]

People who aren't up Hamilton's arse are the fanboys now, Christ. I'll be a conspiracy theorist soon if the pattern holds

I've tried to be reasonable before now, if he's told to move he should, regardless of Toto and Lauda doing some firefighting post race.

what nonsense- Most people hate Team orders, whoever its for. It devalues racing..

[CaledonianCraig]

If you take into account Hamilton's spin on the first lap and damage to the front wing then surely even Rosberg's staunch fans have to admit that Hamilton was the faster driver on the day.

[CaledonianCraig]

People who aren't up Hamilton's arse are the fanboys now, Christ. I'll be a conspiracy theorist soon if the pattern holds

I've tried to be reasonable before now, if he's told to move he should, regardless of Toto and Lauda doing some firefighting post race.

Tosh.

So because people can post clearly and without bias with regards Hamilton they are either fanboys or 'up Hamilton's arse'. Really? What a stupid comment.

As I have said before I wouldn't class myself as a Hamilton fan and haven't tried painting him as anything he isn't so I fail to see where you are coming from.

[GSC]

And apparently I'm a fanboy (how does that even make sense) for pointing out team orders made sense.

[CaledonianCraig]

And apparently I'm a fanboy (how does that even make sense) for pointing out team orders made sense.

I didn't use that term. And I will re-iterate, especially in this instance, team orders would have been detrimental to F1 as Woolf and Lauda have already conceded so time to move on.

[Guest]

whole story is nonsense, storm whipped up by the media. hamilton was never going to obey those orders, he'd mers well just park up & go on holiday until december otherwise, such was the gift he would of given to rosberg & the loss of points. backed up by lauda and co. says everything. i have no idea why people are even debating who's the better overtakers. rosberg has none of the characteristics associated with the skill of making championship winning overtakes. he couldnt do it in bahrain, spain or yesterday, what hamilton did on vergne, around the outside in a non-drs zone, was what differentiates champions from decent drivers. the fact rosberg only leads an issue plagued hamilton by only 11 points is extremely poor. as hamilton says, i have the speed, it's the car which is letting me down'. it's also allowed a decent to good driver in rosberg look or appear suddenly on a level with hamilton. which with anyone with a brain knows is total BS. Roll on Spa.

[CaledonianCraig]

I would agree with that John.

For me Rosberg is akin to Mark Webber as in a very good driver but not amongst the elite.He leads the title race because of his superior car and Hamilton's misfortune. Somebody mentioned yesterday, and it is a fair point, that I'd like to see how Rosberg copes with a disaster in qualifying where he starts at the back of the grid.

[mystiroakey]

I think Rosberg is superior to Webber.

In an ideal world i would like to see vettel and rosberg in the Merc , Lewis and riccardo in the RB or Mclaren , and alonso and botas in the ferrari- with all cars being equal.

[liverbnz]

Webber was a far better 'racer' than Rosberg is showing this season in a much pacier car. Webber was a wheel-to-wheel man who just didn't have the drive in him. Rosberg is more (2/3 years ago) Vettel-lite.

[Trebs]

Whether Mercedes are 1 pt in front of their nearest challenger or 1pt from securing the constructors title, they need to think of themselves. Whichever driver gets the title is irrelevant.

If Hamilton was behind Rosberg and on a different strategy you'd all be screaming how he cost him the race. At the end of the day the title isn't won. Play games when its mathematically done.

[CaledonianCraig]

I think Rosberg is superior to Webber.

In an ideal world i would like to see vettel and rosberg in the Merc , Lewis and riccardo in the RB or Mclaren , and alonso and botas in the ferrari- with all cars being equal.

Hmm I am not so sure. Webber was better on the overtakes definitely but far more erratic with it. Rosberg is a solid but unspectacular driver in my opinion.

[CaledonianCraig]

Whether Mercedes are 1 pt in front of their nearest challenger or 1pt from securing the constructors title, they need to think of themselves. Whichever driver gets the title is irrelevant.

If Hamilton was behind Rosberg and on a different strategy you'd all be screaming how he cost him the race. At the end of the day the title isn't won. Play games when its mathematically done.

Well that viewpoint is irrelevant as it would seem Mercedes have already decided they won't make such a call again as they realise the world title is at stake for BOTH of their drivers and the team is sensible enough to realise that there is more chance of Caterham scoring a point this season than Mercedes not wining the constructor's title.

[Guest]

If Hamilton was behind Rosberg and on a different strategy you'd all be screaming how he cost him the race. At the end of the day the title isn't won. Play games when its mathematically done.

This is what I'm talking about. Hamilton on softer, faster tyres behind Rosberg would of been all over his gearbox & made the move on Rosberg & passed him in the DRS zone. His aggressive, ruthless streak would of kicked in & his racing skills would of been used. Rosberg has to press the radio buttons & start calling for Lewis to be moved out of the way everytime, because Rosberg doesn't have the ability to do the dirty or hard work himself. As someone stated above, Rosberg is essentially a Vettel clone but worse, who can only drive from the front.

[GSC]

Hamilton wasn't going to overtake Rosberg. Nigh impossible. Look at how he struggled with Vettel until he barrier'd it. Vergne on dead tyres is a different story altogether.

[mystiroakey]

Whether Mercedes are 1 pt in front of their nearest challenger or 1pt from securing the constructors title, they need to think of themselves. Whichever driver gets the title is irrelevant.

If Hamilton was behind Rosberg and on a different strategy you'd all be screaming how he cost him the race. At the end of the day the title isn't won. Play games when its mathematically done.

Well that viewpoint is irrelevant as it would seem Mercedes have already decided they won't make such a call again as they realise the world title is at stake for BOTH of their drivers and the team is sensible enough to realise that there is more chance of Caterham scoring a point this season than Mercedes not wining the constructor's title.

you get less money making a bet on merc winning the drivers championship than you would leaving the money in an isa and collecting the interest!

[banbrotam]

whole story is nonsense, storm whipped up by the media. hamilton was never going to obey those orders, he'd mers well just park up & go on holiday until december otherwise, such was the gift he would of given to rosberg & the loss of points. backed up by lauda and co. says everything. i have no idea why people are even debating who's the better overtakers. rosberg has none of the characteristics associated with the skill of making championship winning overtakes. he couldnt do it in bahrain, spain or yesterday, what hamilton did on vergne, around the outside in a non-drs zone, was what differentiates champions from decent drivers. the fact rosberg only leads an issue plagued hamilton by only 11 points is extremely poor. as hamilton says, i have the speed, it's the car which is letting me down'. it's also allowed a decent to good driver in rosberg look or appear suddenly on a level with hamilton. which with anyone with a brain knows is total BS. Roll on Spa.

         

But of course you're a Hamilton fanboy   

I know some very reasonable people who hate Hamilton and when I analyse why it's clear they don't have a clue about his skills and they admit it because they are not F1 fans. They mistakenly criticise him for wanting to win and taking daring chances - but at the same time think that Senna was a god!! i.e. it was OK for Ayrton to do this, but not a Brit!!

However, I would expect anyone writing on here to at least have the grace to acknowledge that Hamilton and Alonso are a class above the others, they've proven it time and time again in cars that have been seconds off the pace

Now, I had no time for Alonso when he was at MM, it put me off him for a while - he then went back to Renault and also started throwing his weight about. However, ever since he joined Ferrari he has actually reminded me what a great Champion he is - I assume this now makes me an Alonso fan boy   

[GSC]

I have Vettel and Alonso as 1 and 2.

If that makes me a "hater" then so be it.

[banbrotam]

Hamilton wasn't going to overtake Rosberg. Nigh impossible. Look at how he struggled with Vettel until he barrier'd it. Vergne on dead tyres is a different story altogether.

Disagree. There was about five laps after the safety car went in, when clearly Hamilton was clearly the most comfortable. If he'd had got behind Rosberg, I think he'd have had a go. Rememeber, Rosberg had a temporary issue as the time

[banbrotam]

I have Vettel and Alonso as 1 and 2.

If that makes me a "hater" then so be it.

I've no issue, provided you can give us all some logic

Do you really think that Hamilton would have been failing in a reliable RB during those seasons Vettel won?

Has Vettel done something, I've not seen this season - i.e. actually get on with accepting the second best car and doing what Hamilton and Alonso did for years.

Oh, or course not, Ricardo's doing it instead   

I don't see the issue Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi (if he was interested) are the last of the old fashioned over-takers - but at least let's call it like it is

I'm sure Vettel will be back, but I do not think he is as good as them two

[GSC]

To counter that, do you really think Vettel would be failing in a dominant Merc?

Being a world champion requires more than just fast laps and flashy moves, Vettels much stronger mentally than Hamilton who seems to develop bipolar disorder whenever something doesn't break his way.

As for Ricciardo, lest we forget Button beating Hamilton in 2012...

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People have been waiting 4 years for a legitimate reason to tear down Vettels 4 WDCs though so by all means continue.

[Bull]

Rosberg's awesome. :P

[GSC]

Hes alright. Not higher than 2nd tier though. Hamilton should beat him if hes in that top tier.

[mystiroakey]

I was chatting to some Germans in mexico- and the group I made pretty decent friends with all rated Rosberg above Vettel.

Which i thought was a bit odd- but they certainly didnt overrate Vettel due to the circumstances that surrounded his 4 wins.

Personally I rate Vettel higher- but he is no Alonso or Hamilton IMO.

[CaledonianCraig]

In my eyes all-time greats do not get beaten so frequently by an up and coming member of the team ie as Ricciardo is doing to Vettel. The Australian has two race wins this season to Vettel's zero. I cannot recall Alonso or Schumacher (in his prime) having to play second fiddle to any of their team-mates. That is an anomaly Vettel has got this season and yes he has been just as stroppy (or shall we call it bi-polar) a few times this season on the radio to his pit crew..

Sure Vettel won four world titles back-to-back but look deeper and is that really so impressive? He was in a car that was strongest on the grid, had Adrian Newey designing the car and his only real opponent (team-mate Webber) was neither lucky enough with various things nor a real top notch driver to challenge him. Playing devil's advocate here but say Mercedes cement their current domination and extend it for three or four more years and Rosberg or Hamilton were to similarly string together world titles would you heap the p[raise on either of them and list them as an all-time great? Somehow I doubt it.

[GSC]

Newsflash guys. Nobody wins a Championship without a strong car.

The RB was only really truly dominant in 2011 and the second half of 2013. 2010 and 2012 both went to the final race. Nothing on the scale on this Merc.

Webber was a worthy challenger before 2013. Lost his drive that season, which is why he walked away.

In any case, if either also win 3-4 WDC they're up there. Certainly if either were to win 4 in a row before their 27th birthday

[CaledonianCraig]

I am still waiting to hear why he is being beaten so convincingly by Ricciardo this season?

[CaledonianCraig]

Newsflash guys. Nobody wins a Championship without a strong car.

The RB was only really truly dominant in 2011 and the second half of 2013. 2010 and 2012 both went to the final race. Nothing on the scale on this Merc.

Webber was a worthy challenger before 2013. Lost his drive that season, which is why he walked away.

In any case, if either also win 3-4 WDC they're up there. Certainly if either were to win 4 in a row before their 27th birthday

2010 Season 19 Races 9 Red Bull Race Wins 15 Pole Positions and World Constructor's Title by 44 points

2011 Season 19 Races 12 Red Bull Race Wins 18 Pole Positions and World Constructor's Title by 153 points

2012 Season 20 Races 7 Red Bull Race Wins 8 Pole Positions and World Constructor's Title by 60 points

2013 Season 19 Races 13 Red Bull Race Wins 11 Pole Positions and World Constructor's Title by 236 points

Seems pretty dominant to me.

[GSC]

For one thing attitude, Ricciardo came into the season with no expectations and the freedom to just drive, while Vettel was leading the team through a disaster of a winter, where Renault failed to deliver an engine that would actually drive more than a 10 lap sprint consistently. I could also play the mechanical bad luck card, and in general Ricciardos been in the right place to take advantage while Vettels been stuck in traffic.

Vettel isn't having a great season though, and Ricciardo is. Again though, Hamilton got beat by Button, Alonso by a rookie Hamilton but that seems conveniently swept under the rug in the latest 606v2 attempt to discredit Vettel.

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For comparisons sake to an actual dominant car, Mercedes lead the current constructors championship by 174 points.

[CaledonianCraig]

For one thing attitude, Ricciardo came into the season with no expectations and the freedom to just drive, while Vettel was leading the team through a disaster of a winter, where Renault failed to deliver an engine that would actually drive more than a 10 lap sprint consistently. I could also play the mechanical bad luck card, and in general Ricciardos been in the right place to take advantage while Vettels been stuck in traffic.

Vettel isn't having a great season though, and Ricciardo is. Again though, Hamilton got beat by Button, Alonso by a rookie Hamilton but that seems conveniently swept under the rug in the latest 606v2 attempt to discredit Vettel.

Sorry I don't buy that one. All-time greats find a way to deal with adversity and ALWAYS beat their team-mate - that is my experience of things. Alonso has been dealt crappy cars in his career but could always get the most out of it compared to his team-mate - that demonstrates greatness. Vettel already trails Ricciardo by 43 points (that is a big margin) - Alonso has had top notch team-mates and always held his own however putrid his car has been so I expect the same from Vettel if he wants to be rated in the same class.

[CaledonianCraig]

For comparisons sake to an actual dominant car, Mercedes lead the current constructors championship by 174 points.

I don't think anyone here would argue that Mercedes is a damned dominant force this season.

[GSC]

Alonso hasn't always beaten his teammate though.

[CaledonianCraig]

Alonso hasn't always beaten his teammate though.

As far as I can recall he has and even if not has he ever been so hammered like Vettel is this year by Ricciardo? Definitely not.

[GSC]

Alonsos lost to the only above good driver hes had as a teammate.

Fisichella, Piquet Jr, Post Crash Massa and doesn't like the new regs Kimi have hardly been the cream of the crop of F1 drivers.

[CaledonianCraig]

Alonsos lost to the only above good driver hes had as a teammate.

Fisichella, Piquet Jr, Post Crash Massa and doesn't like the new regs Kimi have hardly been the cream of the crop of F1 drivers.

Tosh. I have just checked. Fernando entered F1 in 2003 and since then he has never been beaten in a season by his team-mate (in the title race). Lewis Hamilton finished level on points with him in his loan season at McLaren but apart from that Alonso has ALWAYS beaten his team-mate.

[CaledonianCraig]

The point is no matter how rank his car has been he has the measure of his team-mates yet that is certainly not the case for Vettel this year.

[GSC]

So he's always beaten his teammate except that time he didn't (Hamilton was 2nd, Alonso 3rd).

[CaledonianCraig]

So he's always beaten his teammate except that time he didn't (Hamilton was 2nd, Alonso 3rd).

They finished on the same amount of points though - only because of results countback? Certainly not a 43 point margin (Vettel so far this season against a newcomer to the team). Massive difference there.

[mystiroakey]

Cc there is a bigger points differential this year so basing the amount of points isn't the same as in earlier years under different scoring rules.

I also think vettel will pull it back, but Riccardo is the future.

[GSC]

Also rather interesting, taking the teammate he didn't beat out of the equation, Alonsos teammates have won 3 races while Alonso was their teammate. 

Vettels have won 11 so far. Could argue Vettels faced tougher competition

[GSC]

Also can we just say Ricciardos a damn good driver in very good form? Beating these Mercs is some doing even with issues.

[CaledonianCraig]

Also rather interesting, taking the teammate he didn't beat out of the equation, Alonsos teammates have won 3 races while Alonso was their teammate. 

Vettels have won 11 so far. Could argue Vettels faced tougher competition

That can be looked at two ways though as in that Alonso was more of a dominant force given the car he was given compared to his team-mate hence never allowed them such amount of wins.  

[CaledonianCraig]

Also can we just say Ricciardos a damn good driver in very good form? Beating these Mercs is some doing even with issues.

I am not denying that but Vettel is being painted as an all-time great so I expect a driver with such a tag to be able to handle Ricciardo.

[GSC]

Also rather interesting, taking the teammate he didn't beat out of the equation, Alonsos teammates have won 3 races while Alonso was their teammate. 

Vettels have won 11 so far. Could argue Vettels faced tougher competition

That can be looked at two ways though as in that Alonso was more of a dominant force given the car he was given compared to his team-mate hence never allowed them such amount of wins.  

And yet Vettel has more career wins

[CaledonianCraig]

Also rather interesting, taking the teammate he didn't beat out of the equation, Alonsos teammates have won 3 races while Alonso was their teammate. 

Vettels have won 11 so far. Could argue Vettels faced tougher competition

That can be looked at two ways though as in that Alonso was more of a dominant force given the car he was given compared to his team-mate hence never allowed them such amount of wins.  

And yet Vettel has more career wins

Alonso has never had the luxury of a Red Bull dominating for four seasons to drive. Alonso has had to deal with far more less dominant cars to drive yet can still hold his own in those cars. Vettel is not showing that this season.

[GSC]

Those Renaults were hardly undrivable.

[monty junior]

Rosberg is just as good as Hamilton as he has proved over the last season and a half, conspiracies, excuses etc will come and go but stats prove there is little in it. Hamilton the better ovetaker, but harsher on his machinery and more likely to dump it in the wall. I could give some relevance to Rosberg having less mechanical problems but as most of Hamiltons have come in qualifying with a car 2 seconds faster than any other in race trim it's far from the handicap its made out to be. Rubbish season though, if Redbull had a half decent engine it might make it a bit more interesting.

[CaledonianCraig]

Those Renaults were hardly undrivable.

Neither were they a dominating force. Remember Alonso has the caveat of beating Ferrari and Schumacher to the title two years on the bounce.

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