Question of the Week: Terrorism

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 24 Jul 2014, 10:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been 13 years since the war on terror began so the question I want to ask is this: Has the war on terror made the world (most notably western countries) a safer place?

by Rowley Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:17 pm

Didn't argue it was fine, however experimenting on people in the belief, however misguided, that it is for valid reasons is a world away from killing innocents, who you also know will not survive, even in a diminished state, particularly knowing the method of their death is absolutely horrific. The idea that not one of the countless conspiritors has not had a pang of conscience yet is just too fanciful for me.

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:18 pm

kingraf wrote:So torturing and leaving people for dead is fine, but actually killing them is where the line absolutely must be drawn? I somehow don't agree. If you can find people that sleep well knowing they are destroying the lives of innocent people, but people who kill are a step too far?

They can't understand raf because they can't relate.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:22 pm

kingraf wrote:Okay, so, you invade the wrong country and stay for a decade because?

because, if you turn around and invade the right country people will start to get suspicious. Stay there long enough and people will think that even though Bin Laden and his cronies admitted to the attacks, there must be a genuine reason why American troops are in Switzerland or wherever they're currently stationed.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:23 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
kingraf wrote:So torturing and leaving people for dead is fine, but actually killing them is where the line absolutely must be drawn? I somehow don't agree. If you can find people that sleep well knowing they are destroying the lives of innocent people, but people who kill are a step too far?

They can't understand raf because they can't relate.

Sorry and you can relate to this how exactly?

by kingraf Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:24 pm

Again - if a terrorist organization only needs seven... a country which releases ''unclassified'' information with more scratches than my Spanish final GCSE only needs seven. It's really that simple. How many Americans in government do you think knew about the spygates? How many knew about killing Bin Laden? Has the names or faces of the people who killed bin Laden ever been exposed? I thought this was the "social media" era where nothing could be hidden.

by Rowley Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:25 pm

What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.

by kingraf Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:28 pm

If you call unclassifying reports by releasing files with every second word scratched out... then yes, they were quite open and upfront with MKUltra

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:30 pm

Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.

but they have not bucked anything. They have just flat out IGNORED and RUBBISHED attemps by academics, scientists, engineers and family members of the dead by hiding behind a veil of fear and patriotism.

Many 9-11 truth seekers are ready to take the matter to a court of law but the government won't allow it.

why?

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:33 pm

Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.

It's a bit like the Bible...records of Christ's magic trick, sorry miracles, only started surfacing 60 years after his supposed death. Now granted, there was no FACEBOOK back then but I figured that someone somewhere would have mentioned this fella who could walk on water, heal the sick and claim to be the son of God a bit sooner than they did. Still, maybe there was a conspiracy afoot there too.

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:34 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.
It's a bit like the Bible...records of Christ's magic trick, sorry miracles, only started surfacing 60 years after his supposed death. Now granted, there was no FACEBOOK back then but I figured that someone somewhere would have mentioned this fella who could walk on water, heal the sick and claim to be the son of God a bit sooner than they did. Still, maybe there was a conspiracy afoot there too.

Know it all don't you DAVE

by Rowley Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:34 pm

Would guess it is because the various conspiracy theorists have not produced one shred of credible evidence to suggest government involvement and so going to court is a waste of time, money and resources.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:35 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.

but they have not bucked anything. They have just flat out IGNORED and RUBBISHED attemps by academics, scientists, engineers and family members of the dead by hiding behind a veil of fear and patriotism.

Many 9-11 truth seekers are ready to take the matter to a court of law but the government won't allow it.

why?

Because that many nutters should never allowed out a one time?

by Rowley Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:36 pm

Onetwo, am going home soon, but will check in later, in the meantime put together some evidence that you think points to government involvement. Convince me, am open to being turned round on this issue.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:37 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.
It's a bit like the Bible...records of Christ's magic trick, sorry miracles, only started surfacing 60 years after his supposed death. Now granted, there was no FACEBOOK back then but I figured that someone somewhere would have mentioned this fella who could walk on water, heal the sick and claim to be the son of God a bit sooner than they did. Still, maybe there was a conspiracy afoot there too.

Know it all don't you DAVE

Not all, much of it is classified...Level 9...but basically more than is good for you to know. Now, go back to sleep, shhhhhh

by Rowley Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:40 pm

Are you only cleared to level 9 Dave. I only worked in the civil service for four years and I made level 11. Guess at level 9 you don't even know where Elvis is living.

Oh balls, I have said too much already, pretend you did not read that.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:41 pm

kingraf wrote:Again - if a terrorist organization only needs seven... a country which releases ''unclassified'' information with more scratches than my Spanish final GCSE only needs seven. It's really that simple. How many Americans in government do you think knew about the spygates? How many knew about killing Bin Laden? Has the names or faces of the people who killed bin Laden ever been exposed? I thought this was the "social media" era where nothing could be hidden.

Probably not the smartest move to reveal the identity of members of an elite paramiltary unit just in case they need to go undercover at some point. Just an idea you understand. Bit like how we don't reveal the identity of our undercover drug officers as it tends to f**k up any future drug operations

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:42 pm

Rowley wrote:Are you only cleared to level 9 Dave. I only worked in the civil service for four years and I made level 11. Guess at level 9 you don't even know where Elvis is living.

Oh balls, I have said too much already, pretend you did not read that.

You spend as much time making tea (or should that now be "making tea"?) as I do and you simply don't have time to attend all the super secret spy meetings. There's skullduggery to be gotten up to you know

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:43 pm

Rowley wrote:Onetwo, am going home soon, but will check in later, in the meantime put together some evidence that you think points to government involvement. Convince me, am open to being turned round on this issue.

All you need is an open mind.

i never said it was the certain truth its just the many questions that have gone un-answered puts doubt into peoples minds.

by kingraf Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:44 pm

Funny enough, Dave.... the Trojan war was only immortalized by a blind old man years after the fact.... Maybe it was all just dreamt up?

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:48 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Rowley wrote:Onetwo, am going home soon, but will check in later, in the meantime put together some evidence that you think points to government involvement. Convince me, am open to being turned round on this issue.

All you need is an open mind.

i never said it was the certain truth its just the many questions that have gone un-answered puts doubt into peoples minds.

Like how the f**k have you managed to get off your Meds again?

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:50 pm

kingraf wrote:Funny enough, Dave.... the Trojan war was only immortalized by a blind old man years after the fact.... Maybe it was all just dreamt up?

Stevie Wonder never alludes to it on any of his albums....are these secret hidden messages that only the chosen few can decipher?

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:52 pm

Its been a good debate guys but I must dash.

by Duty281 Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:53 pm

A good debate?! Laugh

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!

More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

by Guest Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:56 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Its been a good debate guys but I must dash.

The men in trenchcoats and dark glasses must be closing in. Run now Grey Fox and meet Red Squirrel at the rendezvous where you shall once again join forces to expose the hypocrisy and lies and free your fellow man because you cannot cage the TRUTH......

Or maybe his Mum's called him down for his tea before bath-time.

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 5:58 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!
More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

Well we have come to expect that from you.

by Duty281 Fri 01 Aug 2014, 6:00 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!
More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

Ah too good for me once again.

by ONETWOFOREVER Fri 01 Aug 2014, 6:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!
More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

Ah too good for me once again.

Bet you've said that a few times today already.

disgusting

by kingraf Fri 01 Aug 2014, 6:09 pm

Homer is not Stevie Wonder... But more to the point. Like I've originally said, I'm on the fence about 9/11, simply because... Americans lie, and are shady, untrustworthy types who'd fund a genocide if they thought it would lead them to bigger profit margins. We still don't know the names, or faces of the people who killed Osama, so the whole "how could they keep this quiet", thing doesn't fly. Moreover it's all good and well to claim governments suck at withholding information, but looking at the incidents which they bungled, in terms of secrecy,Roswell, MKUltra... it seems quite amusing that we don't really know much, given the wealth of blotted information we have at our disposal.

by Duty281 Fri 01 Aug 2014, 6:12 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!
More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

Ah too good for me once again.

Bet you've said that a few times today already.

disgusting

Nope, sorry, you've lost me.

by Derbymanc Fri 01 Aug 2014, 7:13 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Rowley wrote:What is interesting about Project MKUltra is it was apparently ended in 1973, and the first reports about it appeared in 1974. This does somewhat come back to the point many of us have made on here about how inefficient governments are at covering up their mistakes. Does make you wonder why they have bucked the trend of inefficiency for 9/11.

but they have not bucked anything. They have just flat out IGNORED and RUBBISHED attemps by academics, scientists, engineers and family members of the dead by hiding behind a veil of fear and patriotism.

Many 9-11 truth seekers are ready to take the matter to a court of law but the government won't allow it.

why?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAWHAHAHWHAHAHAHAHAHAHWHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHWHAHHAHAHAHHWHAHAHAHWHAHHHAHAHAHAH
I could go on, if fact I think I will
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHbWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Read into a lot of the so called engineers, just because I design a house on minecraft, doesn't mean I'm an engineer
laughing

I've got one last question before I'm out, do either of onetwo or Raf stick with the side of the Sandy Hook Conspiracy?

by kingraf Fri 01 Aug 2014, 8:22 pm

No, I don't even side with a "conspiracy" for 9/11, more the feasibility of one occurring... I'm really undecided, gun to head, I'd say there's no 9/11 conspiracy, but decent enough odds, and I'd put money on a conspiracy. Sandy Hooks, well, I'd hope not.

by Derbymanc Fri 01 Aug 2014, 8:28 pm

No probs Raf and cheers for answering.

by **navyblueshorts** Sat 02 Aug 2014, 3:15 pm

Rowley wrote:To be serious for a minute who actually believes conspiracy theories. They are part of the seemingly popular modern phenomena that the likes of holistic medicine and those idiot mediums off the TV buy into, the idea that you are allowed to fill in any gaps in knowledge or understanding with absolute mumbo jumbo and just because the actual truth cannot be explained away beyond any reasonable doubt this gives the mumbo jumbo the same credence as more rational explanations, it doesn’t, in any way, shape or form.

Also think they feed peoples need to feel intellectual, how much does it appeal to your vanity to believe you are so smart you can see through stories put forwards by governments or official channels? Also feel there is a strange comfort to be had in conspiracy theories. If we take 9/11 the idea that 20 odd fundamentalists in barely developed countries can carry out such a devastating attack on the most powerful country in the world is not one that should make any sensible person sleep well in their beds. There is something almost comforting in believing more powerful or shadowy forces are at play, if you have to believe some pretty implausible things to buy into that suspect many are willing to do so.

Suspect the truth is virtually none of the conspiracy theories that abound stand up to much in the way of detailed analysis, one only has to think of Watergate, all that involved was hiding a couple of tapes and that was unpicked by a couple of committed journalists. The idea that the same governments or agencies could cover up events of multiple times the magnitude or complexity is just a step too far for me to accept.

by **navyblueshorts** Sat 02 Aug 2014, 3:19 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Or GM foods, Vaccinations, Aliens, etc etc etc etc.

It's absolutely bonkers some of the stuff that comes under conspiricies and how many times stuff has been proven wrong (Example, they have to keep spending money to do various studies on the link between autism and Vaccinations due to ONE report (later discredited) that said their was a link.)
You wouldn't find it funny if, like me, you had an autistic cat

by incontinentia Sat 02 Aug 2014, 6:13 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:A good debate?!
More of a MASS DEBATE such was the load of old w@nk being spouted at times.

You seem like a master debater dave

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 1:44 pm

Look up US CIA and British direct involvment in 1950's Iran Coup.

Look at their reasons (oil) and look at what happened to Iran then and now.

Then ask yourself if they are not able to do outragous acts to serve their agenda.

by Derbymanc Sun 03 Aug 2014, 1:48 pm

Not killing their own citizens in the way they did no. Too many variables, too many issues could have gone wrong.

If it was the government thy'd have planted a bomb or something as there's less chance of it going wrong.

Unfortunately the tin foil hat brigade will make a conspiracy out of anything (see Kennedy for something that's been proven time and time again and for the fact that most of the conspiricies include 'facts' from a fictional film).

What are your thoughts on Sandy Hook onetwo?

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 1:56 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Not killing their own citizens in the way they did no. Too many variables, too many issues could have gone wrong.

If it was the government thy'd have planted a bomb or something as there's less chance of it going wrong.

Unfortunately the tin foil hat brigade will make a conspiracy out of anything (see Kennedy for something that's been proven time and time again and for the fact that most of the conspiricies include 'facts' from a fictional film).

What are your thoughts on Sandy Hook onetwo?

I could'nt give a rats behind about some mentally disturbed pencil neck's reasons for killing children.

Read what I have stated above. The US can orginize the illiegal coup of another country instantly destablizing it with the effects still being shown today.

by kingraf Sun 03 Aug 2014, 1:58 pm

The Kennedy one is probably the most interesting, after "did Hitler really die". Lack the energy to research it though.

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:01 pm

Anyone who does not agree with the CNN,SKY,FOX etc are tin foil hat loonies.

by Derbymanc Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:03 pm

Anyone that ignores the evidence and blindly follows some guy that started off the theory with a blog in America is one of the tin foil hat brigade.

I did read it onetwo, once again though it doesn't make sense. The government would have no reason at all in the slightest to do something that big with such a massive scope for failure when if they were going to do it, they could have planted a bomb.

Nice to hear your not a completely nutty conspiracy theorist then onetwo Wink

Governments have been involved with destablising other countries since time began, that's not in doubt, what is in doubt (and in fact is completely mental to think about really) is that America planned and carried out a terrorist attack on it's own soil.

Although if we ignore 9/11 I'd be interest to hear what theories about other things you have.

@RAF
JFK's been done to death and proven by many different things including CSI techniques of today (BBC2 did a cracking documentary on it that also went into LHO's life as well.) Same as the moon landings. Had heard the Hitler one but thought it was only a small thing, might have to look that up.
The biggest problem with conspiracy theorists is that they hold onto something so hard that when it gets disproven they warp the facts to fit something else. e.g There was someone on the grassy knoll, (Proved their wasn't) well that doesn't matter cause LHO was working for the government etc etc etc etc

by kingraf Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:08 pm

Oh come on, does anyone have an opinion on the most plausible Conspiracy of all time. Did Hitler survive WW2?

by Derbymanc Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:12 pm

I can't see it as i'm sure we'd have heard more about it by now, although sticking it in google brings up a few results.

http://topinfopost.com/2014/02/12/historians-lied-hitler-did-not-die-in-germany
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545770/New-book-claims-THIS-picture-proves-Hitler-escaped-Berlin-bunker-died-South-America-1984-aged-95.html
(The picture in that one cracked me up, it looks more like popeye)
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/omegafile18.htm

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:18 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Anyone that ignores the evidence and blindly follows some guy that started off the theory with a blog in America is one of the tin foil hat brigade.

I did read it onetwo, once again though it doesn't make sense. The government would have no reason at all in the slightest to do something that big with such a massive scope for failure when if they were going to do it, they could have planted a bomb.

Nice to hear your not a completely nutty conspiracy theorist then onetwo

Governments have been involved with destablising other countries since time began, that's not in doubt, what is in doubt (and in fact is completely mental to think about really) is that America planned and carried out a terrorist attack on it's own soil.

Although if we ignore 9/11 I'd be interest to hear what theories about other things you have.

This is true but why do we complain when terrorist kill people?

If we are happy to accept that these failed states that breed terror are victims of US/UK imperial interferance then who cares what crazy muslims in Iraq are doing with peoples heads today.

Hitler once said “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”

You cannot tell me that all the destruction on 9-11 was the result of a few poorly trained middle eastern thrill seekers who managed to pull off the most spectacular fireworks show the world has ever seen with all plans followed out and executed to a tee. A 1 off shot, no mistakes..........please. If you believe that then you are the conspiracy theorist.

by Derbymanc Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:25 pm

Sorry OneTwo I can and will tell you that 9/11 was pulled off by terrorists funded by Osama Bin Laden and trained at various flight schools around the globe.

If you want to believe what some kid on a blog in America started then that's entirely up to you, I won't insult you but take the time to look up the facts as your doing what nearly everybody does with terrorists.

Assuming they're all incredibly stupid people planning stuff in the back of a bedroom. Most of the upper echelons were involved with the Afghan/Russian war and are properly trained guerilla's. They have the mindset to know how to attack a country that is much bigger than it.

http://www.news.com.au/world/six-really-stupid-911-conspiracies-debunked-in-about-six-seconds/story-fndir2ev-1226717737311

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Terrorist - A person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:29 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Sorry OneTwo I can and will tell you that 9/11 was pulled off by terrorists funded by Osama Bin Laden and trained at various flight schools around the globe.

If you want to believe what some kid on a blog in America started then that's entirely up to you, I won't insult you but take the time to look up the facts as your doing what nearly everybody does with terrorists.

Assuming they're all incredibly stupid people planning stuff in the back of a bedroom. Most of the upper echelons were involved with the Afghan/Russian war and are properly trained guerilla's. They have the mindset to know how to attack a country that is much bigger than it.

http://www.news.com.au/world/six-really-stupid-911-conspiracies-debunked-in-about-six-seconds/story-fndir2ev-1226717737311

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Firstly what kid you on about?

To shut you up please explain how building 7 (which was not hit by a plane) managed to fall into its own footprint? Just EXPLAIN that one and I will end this chirade

by Duty281 Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:30 pm

I would ask, again, for some evidence from ONETWO but he doesn't strike me as the most logical thinker. Someone who calls the deaths of nearly 3,000 people "the greatest fireworks show the world has ever seen" can't be taken seriously.

by Derbymanc Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:35 pm

How building 7 collapsed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/7434230.stm

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/911-at-least-this-aspect-of-it-was-not-an-inside-job.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/10079244/The-911-conspiracy-theorist-who-changed-his-mind.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_15740_was-911-inside-job_p2.html

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun 03 Aug 2014, 2:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:I would ask, again, for some evidence from ONETWO but he doesn't strike me as the most logical thinker. Someone who calls the deaths of nearly 3,000 people "the greatest fireworks show the world has ever seen" can't be taken seriously.

It was tho.

Too many unanswered questions which people who lost loved ones are asking. Yes you see dummy not everyone is convinced by the boogy man explanation. Some people just want answers instead of the cowboy and Indian tale they were given.

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