Question of the Week: Terrorism

First topic message reminder :

It has been 13 years since the war on terror began so the question I want to ask is this: Has the war on terror made the world (most notably western countries) a safer place?

kingjohn7 wrote:

Olly wrote:America intervene in Iraq as they don't want a genocide but happily turn a blind eye to one happening in Gaza

God I can't stand america

Why, what should they do in Gaza airstrike Israel or something? Both sides are attacking each other. Its not genocide in Gaza. Its heartbreaking and terrible for the ordinary people that as usual suffer the most, but their own leaders are as much (more so IMO) to blame as Israel.

You know full well that Hamas aren't recognized as the leaders of Palestine, or Gaza, unless death tolls need to be justified.

I'm yet to see a Briton say, "well the London bombings were unfortunate and it's sad to see the loss of innocent life, but we are also to blame for this since we invaded a country under false pretenses, removing its leader, and plunging it into a civil war"

Really? Ive heard loads of British people say things to that affect. I never said the people of Gaza were to blame for whats going on at the moment. Hamas are the leaders of Gaza, they may not be recognised by Palestinian rulers or the international community but they rule it none the less.

If that's the general British they on the London bombings, that they were self inflicted and brought upon themselves, then fair enough, I was wrong. Gaza deserves to be lit up forever and ever, because that's Hamas HQ. Hopefully no terrorist cells make my neighborhood a base, as then I'll deserve to die.

In other news, multiculturalism is still a storming success in the United Kingdom.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

Duty281 wrote:Yes the human element, the civilian casualties of which my sympathies lie entirely with, exist on both Israel and Gaza, hence why I do not favour one side or the other. Both Israel and Palestine are commiting atrocities.

That's a total and ignorant disregard of the imbalance though. It's a bit like saying Germany and Fiji are both guilty of atrocities in WWII just because the little island contributed to Allied forces and therefore undoubetdly got a little blood on their hands along the way.

Only Israel is bombing schools, hospitals and UN shelters. It gets away with it because ever since its mythical creation out of thin air it has had big bro U S of A backing it without exception because the Jews hold way to much power both gloablly and especially in the US - just look at all the Jew Hollywood producers now refusing to work with Javier Bardem n his missus.

kingjohn7 wrote:Really? Ive heard loads of British people say things to that affect. I never said the people of Gaza were to blame for whats going on at the moment. Hamas are the leaders of Gaza, they may not be recognised by Palestinian rulers or the international community but they rule it none the less.

Really? I've not, other than a few hippies who just need a serious f***ing slap.

Sorry Tophat, I don't understand. You havnt or you have?
Hamas want Israel wiped off the face of the earth, your ww2 comparison is nothing like this situation. Sad thing is as more time goes by I imagine lots of Israelis will think the same about Gaza.

Almost nobody I've ever spoken to has uttered anything close to saying "we basically deserved it because of our foreign policy".

Apart from the occassional (but very rare) hippy tw*t you meet in East London or Glastonbury Festival that needs a proper slap.

And re your other point, it's all about scale. Israel losing a couple of dozen civilian casualities over the space of a year or more does in no way equate, or justify, their deliberate targeting of civilians including the bombing of schools and hospitals.

The dislike of Israel/the Jews is a problem of their own creation. They still other-countries' land, forcibly remove residents in what is essentially racial-purging, and build their own 'Jew-only' settlements in their place.

Recognising that our foreign policy is partly to blame for bombings in London doesn't make you a hippy. Nor does it mean that you think our citizens 'deserve' it. The same way as normal Palestinian and Israeli citizens don't deserve the hardships they have to go through.
Settlers in the west bank are out of order, but I think that is declared illegal by Israeli government. Hatred of the Jews in that region goes back much longer than 70 years.
I don't get the argument that because Israel havnt had more citizen casualties(of which they have had a lot over the years) they are in the wrong. They have shelters, warning sirens, iron dome and evacuate people from danger zones all to look after their people. Contrast to hamas who don't give a FCK about their citezrns and actually put them in harms way.
I'm not pro Israel in this but I just find it amazing that a country that is always under attack and hated by all its neighbours is vilified so much when it actually has cause to go to war, unlike other nations that do... Or should they treat it like horse racing and handicap themselves to make it an even race so we can watch the news and go "ah that seems like a nice fair war"

Hamas are not realistic

they want the destruction of Israel but don't have the means to achieve this goal and Israel well know it.

The founder of Hamas sheik Yassin had stated before he was assassinated that all the Palastinian's wanted was their rights.

People should try to look at the situation from the Palastinian side. I don't agree with voting for Hamas but after more then 60 years of imprisonment, blocked off on all sides, no future for their people and hardly any jobs I can't blame them if they see themselves at war.

Israel is not and has never been a democracy.

They need to share the land.

I agree Onetwo.

incontinentia wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Life under Saddam doesn't look so bad now ??

You're definitely not a Kurd are you ??

Yeah Saddam didn't like the Kurds, but now the country is f*cked up for EVERYONE. So which situation is better?

The IRaq-Iran war is where Saddam saw an opportunity for Kurdish genocide, who had lobbied for their own land since ww1.
Cyanide gases rained down on them killing 1000's.
They are less targeted now but admittedly if the pershmerga fall to the IS, it could be equally as brutal. Just so abhorrent all of it.

kingjohn7 wrote:Recognising that our foreign policy is partly to blame for bombings in London doesn't make you a hippy. Nor does it mean that you think our citizens 'deserve' it. The same way as normal Palestinian and Israeli citizens don't deserve the hardships they have to go through.
Settlers in the west bank are out of order, but I think that is declared illegal by Israeli government(1). Hatred of the Jews in that region goes back much longer than 70 years.
I don't get the argument that because Israel havnt had more citizen casualties(of which they have had a lot over the years) they are in the wrong(2). They have shelters, warning sirens, iron dome and evacuate people from danger zones all to look after their people. Contrast to hamas who don't give a FCK about their citezrns and actually put them in harms way.
I'm not pro Israel in this but I just find it amazing that a country that is always under attack and hated by all its neighbours is vilified so much when it actually has cause to go to war, unlike other nations that do... Or should they treat it like horse racing and handicap themselves to make it an even race so we can watch the news and go "ah that seems like a nice fair war"

(1) Hardly, the Israeli gov't provides the army to ethnically 'cleanse' the areas of non-Jews and then backs the building of the new settlements.

(2) Because in warfare military personnel should make up the bulk of the casualities. Israel deliberately and consciously targets civilians areas and, in particular, hospitals & schools. This puts them well and truly in the WRONG. As does using globally outlawed illegal weaponry such as white-phosphorous grenades (which it denied until all the camera footage came out).

kingjohn7 wrote:Recognising that our foreign policy is partly to blame for bombings in London doesn't make you a hippy. Nor does it mean that you think our citizens 'deserve' it. The same way as normal Palestinian and Israeli citizens don't deserve the hardships they have to go through.
Settlers in the west bank are out of order, but I think that is declared illegal by Israeli government. Hatred of the Jews in that region goes back much longer than 70 years.
I don't get the argument that because Israel havnt had more citizen casualties(of which they have had a lot over the years) they are in the wrong. They have shelters, warning sirens, iron dome and evacuate people from danger zones all to look after their people. Contrast to hamas who don't give a FCK about their citezrns and actually put them in harms way.
I'm not pro Israel in this but I just find it amazing that a country that is always under attack and hated by all its neighbours is vilified so much when it actually has cause to go to war, unlike other nations that do... Or should they treat it like horse racing and handicap themselves to make it an even race so we can watch the news and go "ah that seems like a nice fair war"

I agree re the conduct of Hamas but in all honesty, where can they go? Its what 25miles by 9 and its one of the most densely populated places on earth. Where do they go?

A lot of Americans are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.....But nothing is going to change anytime soon.....

Six million Jews in America...Many located in bellwether states but most importantly carrying power, influence and most importantly MONEY...........

Top two contributors to Obama's campaign were Jewish businessmen as was the top contributor to Romney's.......Adelson alone gave $35 million bucks to Romney and that's before you consider what the "Packs" contribute.....

Billions spent on elections and s**t load of good families bankrupting themselves because they can't afford healthcare.............Bollox isn't it....

Jewish Americans dominate the film industry...They make up the majority of radio hosts and own a number of important other major media outlets....Like the NY times and other tabloids..

They also dominate the legal industry...........

Jewish Americans own at least 60% of America's wealth and that's supposed to be a conservative estimate !!...

Amazing considering they are less than 2% of the population...

Not suggesting there is anything wrong with this...Jewish Americans are renowned for a hard working ethic and everyone is deserving of rich rewards should they invest hours of toil into their investment..

Fact is If you want to run for congress or fight for the White house you don't upset Israel.......End of !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:A lot of Americans are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.....But nothing is going to change anytime soon.....

Six million Jews in America...Many located in bellwether states but most importantly carrying power, influence and most importantly MONEY...........

Top two contributors to Obama's campaign were Jewish businessmen as was the top contributor to Romney's.......Adelson alone gave $35 million bucks to Romney and that's before you consider what the "Packs" contribute.....

Billions spent on elections and s**t load of good families bankrupting themselves because they can't afford healthcare.............Bollox isn't it....

Jewish Americans dominate the film industry...They make up the majority of radio hosts and own a number of important other major media outlets....Like the NY times and other tabloids..

They also dominate the legal industry...........

Jewish Americans own at least 60% of America's wealth and that's supposed to be a conservative estimate !!...

Amazing considering they are less than 2% of the population...

Not suggesting there is anything wrong with this...Jewish Americans are renowned for a hard working ethic and everyone is deserving of rich rewards should they invest hours of toil into their investment..

Fact is If you want to run for congress or fight for the White house you don't upset Israel.......End of !!

Well after the 400 years of black free labour all the African Americans were awarded was 40 acres and a mule.

The jews have a long history of hard work and graft in America and deserve to be respected for it. Its the Zionists who are just as bad as any Islamic extremist that have occupied places of influential power in the states and you're recent post Vietnam international policy reflects that.

What I don't get about Israel's approach to Gaza, the issue of Palestine and the right of return etc is the fact that they think they'll ever get peace with the approach they have now. As things stand, there'll always be someone who wants to be a suicide bomber, place a bomb in a public place, or shoot some poor Israeli/Jewish innocent because of their current policies.
Even if they crush Gaza and turn the West Bank completely into a Jewish enclave, they'll never get away from the fact that someone may get shot, blown up or kidnapped by a terrorist as result of what they're doing/have done. If that sort of thing can't be carried out in Israel itself anymore in the future, I'm sure some enterprising loonies will take it abroad to Jews/Israelis living elsewhere. What a fabulous policy.

Personally, I think Israel is ruled by people who're soaked in blood and know no other way. Do the majority of Israeli youth want to be constantly looking over their shoulders all their lives and maybe never risking travelling abroad? I completely understand why the Israeli state thinks this is the way to go and, God knows, the Jews shouldn't trust others to look out for their interests but if I was a Jew in Israel, I'd be leaving.

As for Hamas, they're hardly a nice bunch of people but, to be fair, they've tried democracy recently and when they got voted in through the ballot boxes we (the 'West') quite conveniently refused to do any business with them and Israel just blanked them. Sorry, but their approach was, unfortunately, entirely predictable after that. No wonder plenty of people view the 'West' as untrustworthy.

This isn't the only example of this sort of thing but I've always thought it completely laughable that if this was a fight between, say, someone's two sons, the parents would inevitably tell the older/stronger one to break it off first and not to be a bully before sorting out the causes and answers. Somehow though, international 'diplomacy' works the opposite way. Bizarre.

That's it isn't it? You can't call Hamas an illegitimate terrorist organization, who weren't democratically placed into power, and in the same breath light up Gaza because "their leaders" are attacking you!

You make a sound argument navy

My view is Israel would rather just do away completely with the Palestinians. Israel wants that tiny bit of land and the whole region. They believe Palestinians can move on to Syria or Jordan but they (Palestinians) have no plans to leave their lands.

As for Hamas they should look within instead of waging what is right now an un realistic war. Sort out the quality of life for its people, try to eek out a future for the young who are hopelessly unemployed, and even tho you have no lands to speak of at least they will have a positive, progressive identity.

Gonna be the greatest magic trick of all time for a country the size of a small city with no trade partners and a dismantled Gaza to eek out any sort of future.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:As for Hamas they should look within instead of waging what is right now an un realistic war. Sort out the quality of life for its people, try to eek out a future for the young who are hopelessly unemployed, and even tho you have no lands to speak of at least they will have a positive, progressive identity.

Unfortunately this isn't Utopia...

It's the blame game..............At the moment they can blame Israel for their own shortcomings.................Bit like Cameron still blaming Labour for the economy...and Obama blaming Bush for his own failures............

It's politics Mate......Welcome to the real world............Ain't gonna change anytime soon !!!

Same with Israel..

Most people in Britain and the US would like a positive, progressive identity................Politics is inherently negative however..

kingraf wrote:Gonna be the greatest magic trick of all time for a country the size of a small city with no trade partners and a dismantled Gaza to eek out any sort of future.

My history has proven that anything is possible with will and hope even under the HARSHEST of environments. In fact I would not be here today had my ancestors had not achieved success in survival.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:...Sort out the quality of life for its people, try to eek out a future for the young who are hopelessly unemployed, and even tho you have no lands to speak of at least they will have a positive, progressive identity.

Pretty sure they've tried that. Difficult though if you're being throttled by a much more powerful neighbour who's given tacit approval, no matter what, by the U.S.

kingraf wrote:Gonna be the greatest magic trick of all time for a country the size of a small city with no trade partners and a dismantled Gaza to eek out any sort of future.

Almost like...dare one say it...a ghetto?

9/11 changed the ball park completely for Organizations like Hamas........

We are living in an age where people are scared and rightfully so !!.........Israel are far from perfect but at least they are civilized..

I mean when the PLO are calling for the prosecution of John kerry it's hardly likely to help their cause is it ??

So? I'm sure many reputable people are calling for the prosecution of Tony Blair. The PLO and the Palestinians have had F.A. from the 'West' for 60 years. Why wouldn't they behave they way they do now? Nothing else has made one iota of difference.

Personally, I think Hamas ought to swallow their stupid pride, bend over and take it from Israel, be a good little political entity....and then demand that settlement building in the West Bank etc etc is demonstrably stopped and all the UN rulings that Israel continually flout be adhered to. Pretty sure that's the last thing Israel would expect and I seriously doubt they'd actually want Hamas etc to do that as there's no way they'll agree to stop all the settlement building. In that sense, I think Hamas etc are right - it doesn't matter what they agree to as Israel has a policy which they'll implement no matter what anyone says to the contrary and no matter the long term damage.

Whatever. This is only going to end in a lot more tears - but then I guess that's what the faceless cretins at the top are happy to allow? I wonder how they can look at themselves in the mirror?

John Kerry is hardly Tony Blair is he ?

No, he's not, but it's hardly mature to say "We aren't dealing with you as you're suggesting Kerry should be prosecuted!" is it? I mean, FFS, if that's the level of 'statesmanship' we have in the World now, we're all FUBAR.

One other thing. Pre-9/11, let me know how it was that Hamas/PLO/Fatah weren't already getting the shaft from Israel/U.S.A./the 'West'?? They were having such a good time of it then? I'm not sure I agree.

navyblueshorts wrote:No, he's not, but it's hardly mature to say "We aren't dealing with you as you're suggesting Kerry should be prosecuted!" is it? I mean, FFS, if that's the level of 'statesmanship' we have in the World now, we're all FUBAR.

Who said that ????????????????????????

I said it doesn't help their cause.....

Ok. Fortunately, you aren't in a position to allow that to have any influence then!   

If John Kerry was in league with a small African despot, he'd be prosecuted...