England v India 3rd Test, Ageas Bowl

First topic message reminder :

Lets get in the thread early enough.
India 1-0 up and now is the time to keep up the leel of intensity.
For England a few careers might depend on a quick turnaround in fortune here.
The pitch is reported to have some green on it and is expected to be in between the ugly pathetic track for the Trent Bridge and a lively track for the 2nd test at the HQ.
Not many reports on the England xi, but there are indications that Stuart Binny will be out for India, and by reports coming in now, its Rohit Sharma who might come in.

Duty281 wrote:Who's deciding this man of the match lark then?

Cook has been an exemplary captain in this Test, and has two half-centuries.
Ballance and Bell have scored centuries.
Anderson and Ali have got five-fors.

Hmmm....

Anderson for me..

Ballance was very unlucky to get out both times though,. But it was all about the quick bowling for me. We wouldn't have won this game without taking the wickets. Its a great batting pitch even today.

To all those England doubters how silly do you feel now!

Duty281 wrote:Pretty confident of England's chances for this Test.

I reckon Cook or Bell will make a large score, and that the England bowlers will finally be clinical!

Well done England; that went pretty much as I expected.

Cook's captaincy was absolutely superb in this Test, and his batting wasn't too shabby, either!

Looking forwards to OT. Jimmys status in doubt, Broad probably has to play. Woakes bowled well enough to go again, it'll be Plunkett vs Jordan I suspect.

As for India, Dhawan has to go, Ashwin has to play somewhere. Pankaj did reasonably well enough to get another go.

Tremlett

mystiroakey wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Who's deciding this man of the match lark then?

Cook has been an exemplary captain in this Test, and has two half-centuries.
Ballance and Bell have scored centuries.
Anderson and Ali have got five-fors.

Hmmm....

Anderson for me..

Ballance was very unlucky to get out both times though,. But it was all about the quick bowling for me. We wouldn't have won this game without taking the wickets. Its a great batting pitch even today.

I'd be inclined to agree.

Day 4/5 of a test match, 6 wickets for the spinner. Can't argue with that.

In danger of becoming a bowling all rounder is Moeen.

Trebs Ali gets the final wicket. England have been very good this test.

MotM I'd give to Anderson or Ballance. Ballance's first innings dig set the game up (Bell scored more runs, but came in with England already in a very strong position), whilst Anderson led the attack from the start and his first innings bowling performance on what was still a flattish deck really put England in the driving seat. If you push me I'd go Anderson cos I do think he was very very good in this test.

India once Anderson had picked up those two early wickets didn't seem to want to fight too much. Disappointing from them, looking onwards they should have been trying to tire out the England bowlers as much as they could.

Moeen Ali? He does look a decent bowler I have to say. Gives the ball a decent rip, bowls at a good pace. Still a few too many bad balls, he's not going to be a holding bowler, but he'll get you a few wickets pretty regularly. Worth remembering Marcus North picked up the odd bagful as well for Australia so it could be a bit early to count chickens, but so far he is justifying his place as England's number 1 spinner.

Cook gets a 9/10 for me in captaincy and an 8/10 in batting.

Going from a 2/10 at best for both last game is impressive !!

well played

Moalitharan leads England to victory. Glorious scenes

So India deservedly lost. Massive loss too.
The moment they picked the Offspinner in the side, the game was half lost. The only good thing to have happened to the side is that the joker didn't make any contribution of substance.
It was a poor approach from the management from day one itself. The moment England won the toss and Bhuvneshwar Kumar failed to strike with the new ball, India decided they had to play for a draw. That is not the right approach to go with, and they started playing for the draw after the first session of day one that was criminal. Their fielding let them down, and there were some crucial umpiring calls that went against them and by the time England found themselves at the wrong end of terrible umpiring calss, the damage was mostly done.
But on such a track, the first innings effort of 330 was seriously underwhelming. Vijay, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Sharma and Dhoni all got starts but none of them played a decisive innings and Rohit and Rahane gifted their wickets away. In fact I think that passage, either side of tea on day 3 where Sharma and Rahane self-destructed that was the most important turningpoint of the game. They were both set and were building a solid partnership and then gave it away easily. Had India batted at least an hour or an hour and a half, this game could have been saved.
The 2nd innings performance wasn't any better, a cacual run-out, and batting without intent. They started playing for the draw on day one, and by the last session of day 4, they had given up. Not a good approach for a top team, hopefully they will learn from this and come out better.
Hopefully Ashwin will come in for Rohit Sharma and they should consider Gautam Gambhir for Dhawan. Mohammed Shami too has been struggling, and should be replaced by Ishant if he's fit, otherwise Ishwar Pandey. The luckless Pankaj deserves another chance, but as Mike hinted, I too have concerns regarding his fitness. He has outdone his domestic efforts at times, even bowling in the late 80s in terms of pace, but he should be able to keep the intensity and focus throughout the day, something he failed to do throughout this test match.

The Indian skipper said that Ishant Sharma won't be fit for the 4th test.
Zaheer 2011 allover again? That's the impression that you get from the 3rd test, the way they played.
So it has to be Pandey or Aaron for Shami then. Ashwin has to certainly play at OT, its a track that has bounce. Ishant will be badly missed, (never thought I would write that ever!!!!). But Ashwin is a bowler who enjoys bouncy conditions and OT can offer a bit of turn as the game progresses so he should certainly play. Will also be more than handy with the bat unlike Rohit Sharma.

It is hard to explain how...the side that was competitive in first game in parts.........very competitive for the better part in the second game.......did not simply turn up.

scored barely 500 runs losing 20 wickets to Eng's 569-7 in the first inning   

Didn't fight at all....didn't win a single session.....no semblance of resistance....simply knocked out by Eng single handedly.

could that be attributed to....Dhoni's feeling of "Nirvana" having won an overseas test after a long time??

They have to come back fighting and play some aggressive brand of cricket....try to win.....this approach of playing for a draw from D1 just doesn't work

msp83 wrote:The Indian skipper said that Ishant Sharma won't be fit for the 4th test.
Zaheer 2011 allover again? That's the impression that you get from the 3rd test, the way they played.
So it has to be Pandey or Aaron for Shami then. Ashwin has to certainly play at OT, its a track that has bounce. Ishant will be badly missed, (never thought I would write that ever!!!!). But Ashwin is a bowler who enjoys bouncy conditions and OT can offer a bit of turn as the game progresses so he should certainly play. Will also be more than handy with the bat unlike Rohit Sharma.

you...msp are missing Ishant   

I think India and Dhoni do not undertsand two flat out tests knock out pace bowlers.....Ishant is down......Bhuv looking tired and feeling his ankle and shami also very tired.

shami has to be replaced and Pandey would be my pick...because aaron can break down in the midst of a test match
and as you said Ashwin is a no brainer.

BUT
you do not know with our defensive captain........he might retain shami for his "experience"
and Rohit..because he is inherently defensive

there is a clear 8 days rest whihc is good for Bhuv to recover

msp83 wrote:The Indian skipper said that Ishant Sharma won't be fit for the 4th test.
Zaheer 2011 allover again? That's the impression that you get from the 3rd test, the way they played.
So it has to be Pandey or Aaron for Shami then. Ashwin has to certainly play at OT, its a track that has bounce. Ishant will be badly missed, (never thought I would write that ever!!!!). But Ashwin is a bowler who enjoys bouncy conditions and OT can offer a bit of turn as the game progresses so he should certainly play. Will also be more than handy with the bat unlike Rohit Sharma.

Ah , said it all along , msp : No Ishant - no India   

GSC wrote:Looking forwards to OT. Jimmys status in doubt, Broad probably has to play. Woakes bowled well enough to go again, it'll be Plunkett vs Jordan I suspect.

As for India, Dhawan has to go, Ashwin has to play somewhere. Pankaj did reasonably well enough to get another go.

First have to hope Jimmy is OK : just not replaceable. Hopefully will be ...but now KP f has apparently photoshopped a video or something...

Assuming all well I'd think either Plunkett or Stokes replaces Jordan , and Woakes perhaps gets another chance (he bowled better than 0 wickets suggests)
Ali taking six presumably settles the clamor for Kerrigan etc in some quarters. At least for now.
Hope Broad is fully fit.

Alfie, Anderson needs a kick up his back very badly. He's one of the best of his times as a bowler, needn't act like such a clown day in and day out.
George Dobell's article yesterday was hinting at the possibility of India taking a standing against too much of the nonsense going in the name of sledging. Regardless of team and players, I have never been one for the over the top nonsense, and I really hope a mark is set with Anderson.

Once again I've not been able to post thanks to problems on my mobile.

India went into this Test with a negative mindset right from the start by picking the part time offspinner over a full time (albeit useless outside Asia) spinner. Part of me wants that clown to play the rest of the series and get 4 ducks in a row to play himself out of contention for the WI series. Now that he has failed in just 1 Test, they'll bring him back against WI at home where he'll resemble Bradman again and get picked for Australia...   

Another good Test for Rahane.

Aaron for Shami would be nice by the way. And I'd prefer Saha to Gambhir as replacement for Dhawan. Thoughts?

Unchanged squad for the 4th test.

Remains to be seen whether England have turned the corner or this is a false dawn.

The most important attribute that England can take from this resounding victory relates to the mental side of the game. I never doubted the abilities of England's players, of their team, but the players themselves did. Coming up to a year without that sweet taste, ten games of desolation; it would have heavily weighed down on team England.

This thumping triumph, this sweet success, this rich resurgence, England's panacea; it has dispelled the doubts, lifted the confidence, and now Moores and Cook can start to take the long march forwards. Onto victory.

Just as it should be.

One bail of hay doesn't make a harvest Duty my man, it's an encouraging sign but doesn't erase all that's gone before it

Big hearing tomorrow for Anderson

invisiblecoolers wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I think England will still win this series. The corner will gradually be turned, and I think it'll be a 2-1 win to the home side.

At odds of at least 4/1 to win the series, I think it's fair game for a lump on.

I don't think we should make any changes, unless Broad is injured, of course, in which case Jordan should come back in.

Victory will manifest itself out of preserverance, by perfect discipline and just that ounce of luck which has certainly been lacking.

  

I know you are a die hard supporter of all English sports, the fact is the current English team is a below average team and so is Indian team.

I would put it this way an average team beat an below average team, expecting the below average team to win 4-1 and citing unluck as the reason for loss is taking way too far.

When was the last time you saw an Indian team [let alone an ordinary Indian team] come with so much so much confident of winning an overseas test series?   

If 2-1 for England is your prediction get ready for series shocks ahead, certainly won't happen [I even doubt England would win a match and the winless streak to continue to record heights].   

Ah yes, I remember in 2011 I predicted England to win by the two test or more margin which would mean becoming number one. I was laughed at, but proved right.

And in the autumn of 2012 against India my pre-series prediction was 2-1 England. I was laughed at, even more so after the first Test, but I was proved right.

I think I'll be proved right once more. England will turn a corner very soon, India don't have such a high ceiling of potential.

Good well done on your predictions   but those are past and you have to come down to present, this English squad is an ordinary squad to turn the results like past, but yes they are against another ordinary side but their opponents are still better than the home compatriots.

Just the one more win needed then! My money might just be safe after all!

Olly wrote:One bail of hay doesn't make a harvest Duty my man, it's an encouraging sign but doesn't erase all that's gone before it

Big hearing tomorrow for Anderson

Fingers crossed for Burnley's Brian Lara then!

ShankyCricket wrote:Once again I've not been able to post thanks to problems on my mobile.

India went into this Test with a negative mindset right from the start by picking the part time offspinner over a full time (albeit useless outside Asia) spinner. Part of me wants that clown to play the rest of the series and get 4 ducks in a row to play himself out of contention for the WI series. Now that he has failed in just 1 Test, they'll bring him back against WI at home where he'll resemble Bradman again and get picked for Australia...   

Another good Test for Rahane.

Aaron for Shami would be nice by the way. And I'd prefer Saha to Gambhir as replacement for Dhawan. Thoughts?

Saha, has he opened with any kind of success in any senior forms? Haven't seen it at all. And though good his keeping is, I am not too sure about his batting technique as such. He's certainly a man of determination but that alone can't cut it, when he had that strange debut where he had to play as a specialist bat, he was a bit exposed against good pace. Good enough as a back-up wicketkeeper, but not really one for a specialist bat responsibilities, particularly at the top of the order.
Gambhir at least, has been there and done that, all be it some time ago....... If we can have the Gautam Gambhir before 2011, I would certainly welcome him back, but have a feeling the one on tour is closer to the version who lived in denial up to the moment he was forced to be dropped.
BTW, would have had the 2nd rate version of Gauti over the arrogant useless prig who bowls offspin even for this game!.
At the moment, all that can be done is that whoever is picked, Ashwin, Gambhir or Rohit, we can hope and pray they do well like Ishant managed in the last game.......

Significant day for not just Anderson. If the BCCI really see this as a moment of taking a strong stand for a larger cause, then it will be a good moment for the game as such.......
With the BCCI, you can never say though!.

The larger cause being not having to face Anderson for the last 2 tests

GSC wrote:The larger cause being not having to face Anderson for the last 2 tests

That is pure nonsense. The Indians after all, just played the likes of Dale Steyn who is one of the alltime greats recently without issues. Anderson is not in that class, he's one of the better bowlers of his time that's all....... If Anderson can behave like at least a half-civilized human being, then it would never have come to any of these.

Its important to draw a stricter line on the whole 'mental disintegration' nonsense.
When Shane Warne went to press talking about a new delivery he was about to unleash and then bowled just like he always did, I enjoyed that. When he and Marlon Samuels almost came to blows mid pitch, I absolutely hated the same.
Glenn McGrath, despite all his achievements, has never been a personal favorite, while Brett Lee always was.......
If Cook feels India are trying to oust Anderson from his side, he can always ask his bowler to stop behaving like a pathetic little clown.

Ind has called up Naman Ojha for 4th test  
why Ojha..he does not open..does not bowl seam or spin nor is a bowling allrounder

And while we are at it, I can't help but wonder, as to how different the reactions of many here would have been if the situations and protagonists had their roles reversed!.
How much sanctimonious lectures on spirit of cricket and what not????!

ohh OK Saha is going back because of injury

they should have called Yadav for Ishant also

KP_fan wrote:Ind has called up Naman Ojha for 4th test  
why Ojha..he does not open..does not bowl seam or spin nor is a bowling allrounder

Naman Ojha as cover for Ishant?!
The selectors trump the batsmen's efforts in the last test effortlessly!.
Or is MS carrying any injuries? But then, Saha is already there!.
Have me stumped there, dear selectors!.

The fact is, MSP, that you're purely speculating on Anderson's behaviour without any clear knowledge or evidence, which is rather poor.

And it's silly to say that India wouldn't want Anderson out of the way for the rest of the series; of course they would. Anderson has led India a merry dance in this Test, and taken seven wickets.

KP_fan wrote:ohh OK Saha is going back because of injury

they should have called Yadav for Ishant also

Oh OK, that does make sense....... Apologies to the selectors then.......
Ojha is a very sensible choice, he was batting like Bradman for the A side in Australia, could even be considered as replacement for the Offspinner.
Yadav as cover for Ishant would have been worth it certainly.......

msp83 wrote:And while we are at it, I can't help but wonder, as to how different the reactions of many here would have been if the situations and protagonists had their roles reversed!.
How much sanctimonious lectures on spirit of cricket and what not????!

I think the reaction would be the same, in that its absolute rubbish and they should just get on with it

Only difference is getting Jadeja banned would be a bad thing for England

Duty281 wrote:The fact is, MSP, that you're purely speculating on Anderson's behaviour without any clear knowledge or evidence, which is rather poor.

And it's silly to say that India wouldn't want Anderson out of the way for the rest of the series; of course they would. Anderson has led India a merry dance in this Test, and taken seven wickets.

Anderson is not the first bowler on the planet to have taken 7 wickets against India!. Moeen Ali took more in this very game hasn't he? Ballance scored 2 hundreds in the series and Root has been among the runs in all the games. So to suggest that India's complaint against Anderson was to take him out of the game is just nonsensical.
Those who have seen Anderson in action on TV can deduce patterns of behavior without much efforts. His pathetic actions after the last ball of the day yesterday, that's just the latest in a rather longish chapter. That was the last ball of the day, It was not even that he had the batsman beaten or anything, Rahane played a good shot to get 3 of the ball and yet the clown had to have words and unseemly gestures to which Rahane reacted angrily, so it is safe to conclude Anderson was not discussing the need for world peace or about possible strategies to address poverty in less developed world.

Jeas you really have an issue with him and I have no idea what you have seen

BY the way Anderson's wickets were worth way more than 7 in the real context of the game- his impact was the winning impact. He took the first two today setting up the win, Mooen just did a bell batting job at the end to clean them up, when the hard work has been done. He got the 5er when it seemed like it was almost impossible to buy a wicket.

We have no Idea how good Moeen is yet- very similar to Jadeja I would bet- but again we have no idea how good either are- Both potential all rounders- lets wait and see.

Olly wrote:

msp83 wrote:And while we are at it, I can't help but wonder, as to how different the reactions of many here would have been if the situations and protagonists had their roles reversed!.
How much sanctimonious lectures on spirit of cricket and what not????!

I think the reaction would be the same, in that its absolute rubbish and they should just get on with it

Only difference is getting Jadeja banned would be a bad thing for England

Yeah, haven't forgotten the abuse and namecalling that David Warner received on these boards after the Root incident and particularly after his comments on Trott that had nothing to be blamed about!.
And the sanctimonious lectures after Jos Buttler was legitimately run-out by the Sri Lankans....... They like to dish out but absolutely hates when the other side refuse to be pushed around.

no one called for anyone to be banned over those incidents- so what are you talking about. Just get over it

Rather large chip on MSP's shoulder. And I do believe Anderson is the leading wicket-taker in the series currently; a fair reason for why India wouldn't want him to be playing the next game.

Tell me MSP, clearly: what happened between Anderson and Jadeja? And what did Anderson say to Rahane? Did Rahane say something previously to instigate it?

Oh I forgot, you can't answer those three questions because you don't know. None of us do.

mystiroakey wrote:BY the way Anderson's wickets were worth way more than 7 in the real context of the game- his impact was the winning impact. He took the first two today setting up the win, Mooen just did a bell batting job at the end to clean them up, when the hard work has been done. He got the 5er when it seemed like it was almost impossible to buy a wicket.

We have no Idea how good Moeen is yet- very similar to Jadeja I would bet- but again we have no idea how good either are- Both potential all rounders- lets wait and see.

Mysti, nobody is saying Ali is a better bowler than Anderson is or that Anderson's contributions in the series are not worthy. Anderson has been a fine bowler, my post above and elsewhere have acknowledged the same many times. I was responding to Cook's obnoxious charge that Duty repeated here. Anderson is not the only bowler to have done well against India, even in this series, the likes of Root and Ballance have done consistently well and as far as I know, India haven't put in any complaint against them. Historically, Broad has done very well against India, Cook himself scored half of his test runs against us, there has been no complaint.
If India and Dhoni are making a point here, it is that the side is not going to be pushed around by anyone. If England find it hard to digest, then all I can say is tough luck!.

A very fine article by cricinfo's David Hopps.
Very much agree with him that cricket has a problem of onfield thuggery that needs to be addressed without delay, and share his hope that the BCCI will use its powers, ones for the good of the game and pursue the issue beyond this one case.
And of course as he says, James Anderson has to be remembered as one of the finest bowlers of his time, and the stain brought about by his onfield behavior, perhaps a role play, needed to be addressed earlier.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/766007.html

And a noteworthy comment from a poster on cricinfo.
"What's most interesting to me is how well he bowled in a match where - one incident aside - he was on his best behaviour. I am an England supporter who would not object to a ban, but I would hope more that Jimmy has learnt from this test how irrelevant to his success the sledging actually is. He should have proved to himself that he's more than capable of letting the ball alone do the talking for another couple of years. Hopefully he will now go about trying to change his unwholesome reputation".

"Onfield thuggery" 

God we've reached kpf levels here

Is there any clear evidence of Anderson's supposed wrongdoings? That appears to be one thing missing.

Duty281 wrote:Is there any clear evidence of Anderson's supposed wrongdoings? That appears to be one thing missing.

Just watch the game Duty, just watch the game!.

I will accept the ICC probe verdict on anderson.

if he is not guilty...I have full faith in the ICC judicial system......he will go scot free and duly so.

If found guilty....then the stands ECB , Stokes and Prior have taken would come under the scanner

I'm a bit torn on the Anderson thing TBH. I don't mind sledging as a rule, but feel we are veering more and more towards it going too far too often.

If Anderson did shove Jadeja then that is obviously unacceptable.

Given how the ICC still bend over backwards for the BCCI, I don't think Anderson's prospects look good. I'd be interested in seeing what would happen if the ECB appealed and insisted on being allowed to pick Anderson until the appeal was heard (technically you're not allowed to, but then technically you're not allowed to appeal a level 1 - note that IMO this is a travesty in the first place, so in a way I'm glad India have been allowed to if it leads to a change in the rules).

I agree with msp when he says that some England fans do pick and choose what they consider to be the spirit of cricket.

I wasn't around on these boards when the Buttler incident happened, but would be interested to hear what the view was. For what it's worth if you ask me, Buttler once he had been warned was either cheating or being dozy.

I do find the notion of the BCCI somehow being on a "greater good" campaign completely ludicrous.

Mike - we all agreed in the end that it was correct for buttler to be run out under the cirumstances. No one complained.

MSP really needs to re think that comment. its not on.

I remember reactionary saying WTF type of comment- In the end i and everyone backed down once we realized the bowler warned him before.

At the end of the day if Anderson did shove any player in the chest then he should take his medicine of whatever punishment he gets. If he is banned it may not be all bad as England need to start looking to the post-Anderson years anyway so this would be an opportunity to look at their options.

As far as this series goes it all depends on England for me. If they lapse back into sloppiness and lacking a killer touch India could still win it. If, however, England knuckle down and reproduce the form shown in this test then England win no matter what India bring to the table in my opinion.