England v India 3rd Test, Ageas Bowl

First topic message reminder :

Lets get in the thread early enough.
India 1-0 up and now is the time to keep up the leel of intensity.
For England a few careers might depend on a quick turnaround in fortune here.
The pitch is reported to have some green on it and is expected to be in between the ugly pathetic track for the Trent Bridge and a lively track for the 2nd test at the HQ.
Not many reports on the England xi, but there are indications that Stuart Binny will be out for India, and by reports coming in now, its Rohit Sharma who might come in.

msp83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Is there any clear evidence of Anderson's supposed wrongdoings? That appears to be one thing missing.

Just watch the game Duty, just watch the game!.

I did, but that doesn't give clear evidence.

Mike Selig wrote:I'm a bit torn on the Anderson thing TBH. I don't mind sledging as a rule, but feel we are veering more and more towards it going too far too often.

If Anderson did shove Jadeja then that is obviously unacceptable.

Given how the ICC still bend over backwards for the BCCI, I don't think Anderson's prospects look good. I'd be interested in seeing what would happen if the ECB appealed and insisted on being allowed to pick Anderson until the appeal was heard (technically you're not allowed to, but then technically you're not allowed to appeal a level 1 - note that IMO this is a travesty in the first place, so in a way I'm glad India have been allowed to if it leads to a change in the rules).

I agree with msp when he says that some England fans do pick and choose what they consider to be the spirit of cricket.

I wasn't around on these boards when the Buttler incident happened, but would be interested to hear what the view was. For what it's worth if you ask me, Buttler once he had been warned was either cheating or being dozy.

I do find the notion of the BCCI somehow being on a "greater good" campaign completely ludicrous.

The BCCI is not the most credible organization when comes to leading a larger good campaign, bu they are powerful enough to lead one such effort. And I hope they use that power for something good ones.......
I think there has to be a distinction between a funny bit of banter and insouciant abuse. The exchange between Mark Waugh and Jimmy Ormond is something worth remembering, but Glenn McGrath's line to Ramnaresh Sarwan that got a deserving response isn't IMO.
I would any day take away the image of Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee from Ashes 2005 rather than any big mouth nonsense from a cricket field.

msp83 wrote:

Olly wrote:

msp83 wrote:And while we are at it, I can't help but wonder, as to how different the reactions of many here would have been if the situations and protagonists had their roles reversed!.
How much sanctimonious lectures on spirit of cricket and what not????!

I think the reaction would be the same, in that its absolute rubbish and they should just get on with it

Only difference is getting Jadeja banned would be a bad thing for England

Yeah, haven't forgotten the abuse and namecalling that David Warner received on these boards after the Root incident and particularly after his comments on Trott that had nothing to be blamed about!.
And the sanctimonious lectures after Jos Buttler was legitimately run-out by the Sri Lankans....... They like to dish out but absolutely hates when the other side refuse to be pushed around.

Steady on. Warner punched Root in the face. Now England do do things agaisnt the spirit of cricket and sometimes it's a shame and sometimes it is genuinely plucky or good sense and only agaisnt the spirit if we ignore everything that has happened in professional international cricket for decades. But punching someone in the face deserves condemnation with very very few contextual exceptions, none of which were close to being fulfilled. False comparisons galore

ChequeredJersey wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Olly wrote:

msp83 wrote:And while we are at it, I can't help but wonder, as to how different the reactions of many here would have been if the situations and protagonists had their roles reversed!.
How much sanctimonious lectures on spirit of cricket and what not????!

I think the reaction would be the same, in that its absolute rubbish and they should just get on with it

Only difference is getting Jadeja banned would be a bad thing for England

Yeah, haven't forgotten the abuse and namecalling that David Warner received on these boards after the Root incident and particularly after his comments on Trott that had nothing to be blamed about!.
And the sanctimonious lectures after Jos Buttler was legitimately run-out by the Sri Lankans....... They like to dish out but absolutely hates when the other side refuse to be pushed around.

Steady on. Warner punched Root in the face. Now England do do things agaisnt the spirit of cricket and sometimes it's a shame and sometimes it is genuinely plucky or good sense and only agaisnt the spirit if we ignore everything that has happened in professional international cricket for decades. But punching someone in the face deserves condemnation with very very few contextual exceptions, none of which were close to being fulfilled. False comparisons galore

So a punch in a bar where the baby face had gone to listen to a lecture on the spirit of cricket at 2-30 AM is not on while a push in the dressingroom pathway is very much cricketing and routine!.
I was very critical of what Warner did in the Root insidant, and have never been a fan of hour-long abuse sessions in the name of cricket. And Anderson took it beyond the boundaries, yet some people want to live in the world of denial.

I shall repeat one final time, MSP: can I have some clear evidence of what Anderson said or did to prove your claim?

I don't expect you to give me this, simply because there isn't any (currently) and you're just operating off a prejudiced dislike.

I think the case will centre around eye-witness evidence. Not sure but I think Dhoni is quoted somewhere as sating he never saw 'the push' he just heard raised voices. So who saw the push? If multiple players offer eye witness evidence then Anderson will be found guilty and has to accept his medicine. If he is cleared it surely can be presumed nobody saw a push.

If Erasmus claims he saw it, can his testimony be discarded? Not the contact he has imagined this past few days...

Dhoni did indeed talk about Jadeja being pushed. He in fact mentioned that Jadeja just about managed to regain his balance after that.

And Ben Stokes has said that Jadeja pushed Anderson first.

Golly, who shall I believe? I've even heard that Jadeja lifted his bat as if to strike Anderson.

msp83 wrote:Dhoni did indeed talk about Jadeja being pushed. He in fact mentioned that Jadeja just about managed to regain his balance after that.

Well no as this is his transcript:-

Dhoni said Jadeja had been on the receiving end of "foul langauge" and physical assault and, although the India skipper did not name Anderson on Saturday, it was clear he was referring to the England paceman during a news conference in Southampton ahead of Sunday's third Test match.

"I don't want to take any individual's name, but one used foul language against Jadeja," Dhoni said.

"I had to step in the middle. By that time, we had reached the ropes, and I thought the thing was defused.

"Then, when we were going through the members' area, I was ahead of Jadeja, who was a couple of yards behind me.

"Again, something happened. Something was told to him and he turned across to the individual.

"After that, he was pushed and he barely gained his balance. Then, he turned to see what was happening.

"The bat was under his armpit throughout, and right from the call for lunch till the time he entered the dressing room, not one word was spoken by him (Jadeja)."

Now I take it when it says 'he turned to see what was happening' it is referring to Dhoni.

its obvious what happened.,

Anderson and Jadeja was having a sledge match- jimmy said something- Jadeja turned round agrresively up in Jimmys face and jimmy pushed him out the way.

Its a 50/50 thing even if it marginally isnt.

Many things have to be taken into account here. If he was seen maliciously pushing Jadeja then he deserves punishment and if that means a ban then he should accept his medicine. There may have been a push that wasn't malicious in intent as in that just a whole pushing of people rushing to get in for lunch (not likely I know but possible) and if so this is just a storm in a teacup. It lies on eye witness evidence for me.

mystiroakey wrote:its obvious what happened.,

Anderson and Jadeja was having a sledge match- jimmy said something- Jadeja turned round agrresively up in Jimmys face and jimmy pushed him out the way.

Its a 50/50 thing even if it marginally isnt.

Yes that is the most likely scenario but even so it is not acceptable raising hands to an opponent. Jadeja has been punished and so now it is Anderson's turn.

If Jadeja has turned around aggressively and Jimmy has pushed him away because of this then they are both as bad as each other and as such the punishment should be the same, if the push is uncalled for and not merited then Jimmy should rightly get a more severe punishment.

It's funny that MSP is taking Dhoni's account as gospel, what do you expect the team captain to say?

hampo171 wrote:If Jadeja has turned around aggressively and Jimmy has pushed him away because of this then they are both as bad as each other and as such the punishment should be the same, if the push is uncalled for and not merited then Jimmy should rightly get a more severe punishment.

It's funny that MSP is taking Dhoni's account as gospel, what do you expect the team captain to say?

Well from that transcript I posted it would seem Dhoni never actually saw it and only saw the aftermath.

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Erasmus claims he saw it, can his testimony be discarded? Not the contact he has imagined this past few days...

Judging by the way he umpired the past few days him saying he saw it is the worst thing that could've happened for India

If only someone in the members area at Lords was taking a video of the incident. Oh but there again the BCCI are staunchly against that sort of thing.

hampo171 wrote:If Jadeja has turned around aggressively and Jimmy has pushed him away because of this then they are both as bad as each other and as such the punishment should be the same, if the push is uncalled for and not merited then Jimmy should rightly get a more severe punishment.

It's funny that MSP is taking Dhoni's account as gospel, what do you expect the team captain to say?

Captains can say so many things like what Cook did. Dhoni's statement was clear, that he did see Jadeja getting pushed and barely gaining balance.
And I must say, I found it absolutely amazing that in this day and age where access to dressingrooms are so closely monitored, the ECB/County cameras just refused to work!!!.

If Anderson pushed Jadeja without provocation then he deserves a ban, if Jadeja squared up to Anderson and he pushed him away then they're both as bad as each other.

It sounds more like the latter but I shall reserve judgement until a tribunal is held.

The BCCI's position on DRS is debatable to say the least, but using that as cover for Anderson just doesn't cut. If you haven't noticed, the question here is not about whether Anderson's push would have landed on Jadeja's face or would it have missed the face and hit the chest!.
And what has members at Lord's got to do with it all anyways?

The question is did jadeja square up to jimmy?

the fact that jadeja has been fined tells us he must have (in the ICC's eyes) therefore its a 50/50 fault, unless india can proof jadeja was completelky innocent and jimmy just went right up to him and physical abused him without him 'starting' it

Dhoni will back his man so you can't take his word as gospel, far to quick to try and crucify Anderson who hasn't had any disciplinary issues in his career, there is a cynical side of me that thinks this is all a ploy to get England's best bowler out of the series.

mystiroakey wrote:The question is did jadeja square up to jimmy?

the fact that jadeja has been fined tells us he must have (in the ICC's eyes) therefore its a 50/50 fault, unless india can proof jadeja was completelky innocent and jimmy just went right up to him and physical abused him without him 'starting' it

England put up a level 2 charge against Jadeja and the match referee did not find merits in the same. He was not convinced that Jadeja's role in the confrontation would justify a level 2 charge. So I can't understand how it can be deduced that he must have squared up to Anderson.......

msp83 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:The question is did jadeja square up to jimmy?

the fact that jadeja has been fined tells us he must have (in the ICC's eyes) therefore its a 50/50 fault, unless india can proof jadeja was completelky innocent and jimmy just went right up to him and physical abused him without him 'starting' it

England put up a level 2 charge against Jadeja and the match referee did not find merits in the same. He was not convinced that Jadeja's role in the confrontation would justify a level 2 charge. So I can't understand how it can be deduced that he must have squared up to Anderson.......

i didnt say he must have- i said he must have(in the ICC's eyes) otherwise he did nothing wrong and wouldnt have been fined a thing

hampo171 wrote:Dhoni will back his man so you can't take his word as gospel, far to quick to try and crucify Anderson who hasn't had any disciplinary issues in his career, there is a cynical side of me that thinks this is all a ploy to get England's best bowler out of the series.

I don't see it that way. Even if it was the case then Anderson has been a silly boy for being suckered into such a situation. If he pushed Jadeja (whatever the provocation) he has to accept the punishment even if it is a one test ban. It may teach him not to get involved in such pathetic incidences IF he is found guilty that is.

mystiroakey wrote:

msp83 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:The question is did jadeja square up to jimmy?

the fact that jadeja has been fined tells us he must have (in the ICC's eyes) therefore its a 50/50 fault, unless india can proof jadeja was completelky innocent and jimmy just went right up to him and physical abused him without him 'starting' it

England put up a level 2 charge against Jadeja and the match referee did not find merits in the same. He was not convinced that Jadeja's role in the confrontation would justify a level 2 charge. So I can't understand how it can be deduced that he must have squared up to Anderson.......

i didnt say he must have- i said he must have(in the ICC's eyes) otherwise he did nothing wrong and wouldnt have been fined a thing

I thought it was a fine for swearing or something that he got.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/766083.html

The hearing (with the commissioner listening over Skype, how frightfully modern!) could take up to two days to reach a verdict.

Beyond reasonable doubt, the article says. No way will India be able to prove that without video evidence.

mystiroakey wrote:

msp83 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:The question is did jadeja square up to jimmy?

the fact that jadeja has been fined tells us he must have (in the ICC's eyes) therefore its a 50/50 fault, unless india can proof jadeja was completelky innocent and jimmy just went right up to him and physical abused him without him 'starting' it

England put up a level 2 charge against Jadeja and the match referee did not find merits in the same. He was not convinced that Jadeja's role in the confrontation would justify a level 2 charge. So I can't understand how it can be deduced that he must have squared up to Anderson.......

i didnt say he must have- i said he must have(in the ICC's eyes) otherwise he did nothing wrong and wouldnt have been fined a thing

We should have more on the Jadeja fine tomorrow anyways. The legal submissions by the BCCI forced the ICC to take the unprecedented step of allowing an appeal on a level 1 charge. Its in this context that the talk of the video has come up. I hope the BCCI is able to provide videio proof in the issue.
Regardless of whatever be the outcome of the case, the whole abuse culture in the name of sledging should be strictly controlled.

Duty281 wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/766083.html

The hearing (with the commissioner listening over Skype, how frightfully modern!) could take up to two days to reach a verdict.

Beyond reasonable doubt, the article says. No way will India be able to prove that without video evidence.

And as we know, the cameras conveniently didn't work that day!!.

I'm sorry guys but it doesn't follow that because both were involved and both did wrong that they are equally culpable.
Pushing someone is a more serious offence than squaring up to someone IMO.

I'm not sure Jadeja is the innocent party Dhoni is claiming, and to be fair the Indians do have a history of being liberal with the truth when one of their own is accused.

But if there is compelling evidence that Anderson pushed Jadeja then he should be banned, probably for a couple of matches.

Mike Selig wrote:I'm sorry guys but it doesn't follow that because both were involved and both did wrong that they are equally culpable.
Pushing someone is a more serious offence than squaring up to someone IMO.

I'm not sure Jadeja is the innocent party Dhoni is claiming, and to be fair the Indians do have a history of being liberal with the truth when one of their own is accused.

But if there is compelling evidence that Anderson pushed Jadeja then he should be banned, probably for a couple of matches.

Absolutely

How do you define the push though mike? If it's a shove then I agree as there's no place, however if it is just Anderson attempting to move Jadeja back because he has invaded his personal space then he is entitled to do that as you would be in any walk of life.

If Anderson actually shoved Jadeja in an aggressive manner he would have been on his backside.

The fact that he barely lost any balance indicates that it was controlled to simply move him out of the way.

That's hardly the most scientific measurement. By that reckoning, a James Taylor type should have a full blown pop at Morne Morkel, as there is now way he's dropping him. It's really got nothing to do with balance, Iraq anything of the sort. You don't put your hands on a cricketer during the game, and you surely don't do it during lunch breaks and such. Jimmy Anderson just comes across as the freaking village idiot.Then If found guilty, there's simply no way around a ban.

I confess I am bewildered by the level of criticism of Anderson's general behaviour shown by some posters - and , apparently , the strong feelings on the part of India's cricketers. It sometimes seems that this case may be less about the actual events on the day than this feeling that Jimmy constantly goes beyond acceptable sledging , to the point of intimidation ; but where is the evidence for this ?

Anderson likes to say a few words to batsmen .

Wow. Come and play club cricket in Australia for a few years and you'll soon get immune to most insults (I came to regard "effing Pommy Bast..." as almost a form of endearment over time). And yes , the authorities are trying to clean it up in more recent years ; but still a work in progress I reckon...
If Anderson were as "bad" as some imply , the umpires would have had him on report long ago. And if the current Indian team find his manner offensive it is just as well they never played against Merv Hughes    Or "Mad Dog" Callen...

None of this is to excuse Anderson if indeed he has overstepped the mark in this case. But we simply don't know. David Boon clearly didn't totally accept the testimony of the Indian witnesses , hence his (mild , sensibly so , in my opinion ) treatment of Jadeja. It remains to be seen how the judge in this case sees things.

I'll be disappointed if Anderson is hung out to dry over what many see as a storm in a teacup just because of BCCI pressure . Hope that no such pressure is forthcoming. But I do remember the Symonds- Bhaji case...

Justice will - hopefully - be done in a few hours. Just hope nothing more comes of it than a fine : because if England ended up being deprived of their main bowler by what they perceived as a witch hunt it wouldn't do much for the relations between the teams. And this is in fact a good series , which I would prefer not to be spoiled by any more silly stuff , on field or in corridors...

And getting away from the legal nonsense : India must surely consider Ashwin for the next match ? Even with his limitations he must offer something extra to their attack ...
And Gambhir can't do worse than Dhawan.

Hope Pankaj gets another chance - one of the unluckiest 0/for I've ever seen.

It's not really the sledging, for me anyway. I didn't even know until last night that Anderson was regarded as a prime sledge-master, and I don't even care. You just don't put your hands on another professional, simple as. The sledging, combined with the Warner-esque Michael Clarke incident years ago, just makes him look the type to think this sort lowest common denominator stuff is acceptable. I've been more surprised with his defendants on here, bemoaning the game for going soft... Never in the history of cricket has pushing a player been regarded as acceptable behaviour.

kingraf wrote:It's not really the sledging, for me anyway. I didn't even know until last night that Anderson was regarded as a prime sledge-master, and I don't even care. You just don't put your hands on another professional, simple as. The sledging, combined with the Warner-esque Michael Clarke incident years ago, just makes him look the type to think this sort lowest common denominator stuff is acceptable. I've been more surprised with his defendants on here, bemoaning the game for going soft... Never in the history of cricket has pushing a player been regarded as acceptable behaviour.

I agree.

Also I have to say Jimmy only has himself to blame if found guilty. Even if he was sworn at or something you laugh it off, move on and think to yourself you'll do the talking on the cricket pitch. If he was silly enough to lose his rag and push Jadeja then a ban is what he should get and what he will deserve. He should know better as one of the most experienced players in the England side.

Craig, perhaps the long experience is what let down Andeson. Or to be more precise the knowledge that the game has developed an anything goes culture in the name of sledging over the years, and the umpires do not always appaly the rulebooks strictly and just accept things as part of the routine.
As alfie said, perhaps this is quite regular in the club seen in Australia, and the Australians under Steve Waugh took the whole thing to the most ridiculous levels and gave it the fancy name of 'mental disintegration'.
Glad to hear that the Australian authorities themselves are attempting a a bit of a clean up, much, much needed I would say. Also it has to be kept in mind that the main cricket playing countries, leave alone the 100 other associates and others, they all come from different cultural backgrounds, so what is seen routine may not be perceived similarly elsewhere.
With the Australians legitimizing it and giving back better than what you got perceived as the legitimate response to sledging, it has become a disease that has spread across the cricket world.
I hope this is the beginning of a larger cleanup that the game badly needs.

Sledging is fine on the pitch as long as it is kept to an acceptable level and is policed responsibly by the umpires. However, it should be left out on the pitch and not carried over as it seems was the case here.

Neither Jadeja, nor Anderson found guilty.
Very interesting, I must say.
Very much looking forward to the reasoning.
Is it lack of clear evidence?
Or does the judicial commissioner believe abusing pushing and all that adds to the game?
A battle has been lost, but the war to make the game more civilized should continue nevertheless.

msp83 wrote:Neither Jadeja, nor Anderson found guilty.
Very interesting, I must say.
Very much looking forward to the reasoning.
Is it lack of clear evidence?
Or does the judicial commissioner believe abusing pushing and all that adds to the game?
A battle has been lost, but the war to make the game more civilized should continue nevertheless.

Actually the Judge probably believed Anderson's story that he pushed past Jadeja who he believed had turned aggressively and raised his bat.

He also believed Jadeja when he said he turned to hear what Anderson was muttering and any raising of the bat in Anderson's direction was co-incidental.

Both players probably did not tell the whole truth, and both should have been found guilty of Level 2 breaches.


Any war for civilised cricket was lost the second BCCI aided by ECB and CA put money ahead of the good of the game. I suggest you put down your stones before breaking that glass house you live in.

What have the ECB or CA done.

The ECB especially is trying to keep test cricket alive by playing the most matches year in year out.

India's stance on t20 and DRS are the big problems test cricket faces. 

Sledging is minor in comparison.

In my dream world, Cricket would be divided into two separate sports (like Rugby Union and Rugby League).

First-class, Test and fifty-over cricket on one side; Twenty20 rubbish on the other. Players can play on one side or the other, but not both.

Oh perchance to dream!

mystiroakey wrote:What have the ECB or CA done.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10925478/England-India-and-Australias-power-grab-at-the-ICC-is-the-worst-thing-that-has-ever-happened-to-our-sport.html

LondonTiger wrote:

msp83 wrote:Neither Jadeja, nor Anderson found guilty.
Very interesting, I must say.
Very much looking forward to the reasoning.
Is it lack of clear evidence?
Or does the judicial commissioner believe abusing pushing and all that adds to the game?
A battle has been lost, but the war to make the game more civilized should continue nevertheless.

Actually the Judge probably believed Anderson's story that he pushed past Jadeja who he believed had turned aggressively and raised his bat.

He also believed Jadeja when he said he turned to hear what Anderson was muttering and any raising of the bat in Anderson's direction was co-incidental.

Both players probably did not tell the whole truth, and both should have been found guilty of Level 2 breaches.


Any war for civilised cricket was lost the second BCCI aided by ECB and CA put money ahead of the good of the game. I suggest you put down your stones before breaking that glass house you live in.

Have always been very critical of the power games played by the big 3 at the ICC.
That's a war that's lost already though unfortunately.
But that's more about the administrative side of the game, I want to watch my game being played on the field with a bit more civility....... Could be another lost war, but as Duty said, we can always dream