Golovkin: Boxing's Best Puncher Since Tyson?

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Is Golovkin the scariest hitter since Tyson?

Jackson, Trinidad, McClellan and Valero created an aura - a mystique - when they fought. Is Golovkin on that level? Is he the biggest hitter of them all - Tyson even?

Dipper Brown wrote:Agree with Milky, I don't fault Cotto at all personally. In his position he can take a winnable fight for huge money in Canelo and after that possibly a career pay day against Mayweather.

He's had one fight at Middleweight and is a career WW so I doubt 'cleaning out the division' is a priority to him. Huge risk and nowhere near the reward should he somehow beat GGG.

All the money in the world and the chance to be the man who takes Mayweather's 0 or a long (or most would believe short) night with a man with sledgehammers for fists?

Flip side, if I was GGG I'd be using this to hype his image as 'the most avoided man' in boxing. Why not? Adds to his mystique and value.

That's what he is doing. Why people want to deny this I don't know.

Some people on here are taking a very narrow view of things because it suits their agenda.

No people are denying the crackpot suggestions that hes being protected and that his struggles to get the big names to fight him are not very real.

catchweight wrote:No people are denying the crackpot suggestions that hes being protected and that his struggles to get the big names to fight him are not very real.

You obviously have not comprehended what I have written.

Strongy, you've been shouting that GGG's a protected fighter since last night. You've also said he should expect to be paid less for fighting fighters with a lesser profile than him (Ward) whilst also stating other fighters shouldn't be fighting for less than what they 'think' they're worth.

Are you now saying he's not protected but is using all this to hype his image??????


You've stated numerous times that his management is protecting him and that he doesn't want these fights at all. Are you sure your comprehending what you actually write?

I certainly have. You have argued up and down that Golovkins has been protected and that his struggles to get fights have been spin on the part of his management using one ridiculous argument after another.

Strongback wrote:

Rowley wrote:Even if he has made noise about fighting Floyd or Ward not sure what difference it makes. Is it not possible his preference is to unify middle, but he realises how uninterested the other belt holders so is willing to look elsewhere to get a challenge/payday worthy of his talents?

There was an idea put out by his people that he could not get a fight and then some others here said that he only wanted to fight at MW. I don't believe either of those two things to be true. This is my debate.

It is clear GGG is telling the media he is willing to fight everybody from 154 to 168.  I personally believe Golovkin wants a big pay day but does not bring enough to the table to get the fights made from a business point of view.

He either brings more dollars to the table or he takes on a Ward or whoever will fight him for a modest payday.  He wants the big fights but not the risk/low reward of a fighter like Ward.

If this is the case he will have to wait in line until Cotto and Canelo fight because that is a huge fight. Canelo is his best chance of a title and this can happen next year, I believe Canelo beats Cotto.  If Golovkin wants a fight in between why not take on Ward or if not then continue to do what he has done to date and fight MW's levels below him for peanuts.  Stop the spin though.

Golovkin is promoted by K2 who promote the Klitschko's. No surprise there is politicking and spin going on.

1. It is clear that Golovkin has struggled to land fights. Chavez, Geale, Sturm and Kirkland have all turned down offers to fight him.
2. Golovkin is a middlweight who wants to become champion at middlweight. As that isn't feasible right now, he's willing to fight at 154 or 168 to raise his profile in fights that will actually achieve that aim (Chavez, Mayweather, Cotto or Chavez).
3. Here's the latest on Ward (with links so you don't get paranoid we're hiding anything from you):

"Battling a promoter in court carries risk. This isn't Judge Judy. A lawsuit could take months, years to be resolved. However Ward maintains that he is willing to fight for Goossen while the lawsuit plays out. But he says he has not had one legitimate offer from Goossen since December. Names like Sakio Bika, James DeGale and Anthony Dirrell have been floated but, says Ward, those fights represent a step back. And while there has been a public push for Ward to move up to light heavyweight--specifically for a fight with Sergey Kovalev--Ward says there are still plenty of opponents for him in the super middleweight division.
"I'm not a light heavyweight," Ward said. "That's just what it is. I know there has been a lot of noise about Kovalev, but that's one fight. That's not even a pay per view fight. When I go there, and we beat Kovalev, they are going to say he is just a puncher, that he is one dimensional. Then where do I go? There are options at 168. [Gennady] Golovkin is an option. [Julio Cesar] Chavez is an option. But those guys have been allowed to circumvent fighting the best guy. Golovkin has built his reputation saying he will fight anybody. I'm raising my hand. I'm somebody. Let's do it."


http://www.si.com/mma/2014/05/07/andre-ward-dan-goossen-antonio-leonard-promoter-dispute

Here, Tom Leoffler explains why a Ward fight isn't financially viable at present:

http://www.boxingscene.com/golovkin-ward-promoter-see-financial-sense--80389

The only way Ward-Golovkin can be made (sadly) is if both can attain PPV status. Golovkin, looks to be on his way.

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:

Rowley wrote:Even if he has made noise about fighting Floyd or Ward not sure what difference it makes. Is it not possible his preference is to unify middle, but he realises how uninterested the other belt holders so is willing to look elsewhere to get a challenge/payday worthy of his talents?

There was an idea put out by his people that he could not get a fight and then some others here said that he only wanted to fight at MW.  I don't believe either of those two things to be true.  This is my debate.

It is clear GGG is telling the media he is willing to fight everybody from 154 to 168.  I personally believe Golovkin wants a big pay day but does not bring enough to the table to get the fights made from a business point of view.

He either brings more dollars to the table or he takes on a Ward or whoever will fight him for a modest payday.  He wants the big fights but not the risk/low reward of a fighter like Ward.

If this is the case he will have to wait in line until Cotto and Canelo fight because that is a huge fight. Canelo is his best chance of a title and this can happen next year, I believe Canelo beats Cotto.  If Golovkin wants a fight in between why not take on Ward or if not then continue to do what he has done to date and fight MW's levels below him for peanuts.  Stop the spin though.

Golovkin is promoted by K2 who promote the Klitschko's. No surprise there is politicking and spin going on.

1. It is clear that Golovkin has struggled to land fights. Chavez, Geale, Sturm and Kirkland have all turned down offers to fight him.
2. Golovkin is a middlweight who wants to become champion at middlweight. As that isn't feasible right now, he's willing to fight at 154 or 168 to raise his profile in fights that will actually achieve that aim (Chavez, Mayweather, Cotto or Chavez).
3. Here's the latest on Ward (with links so you don't get paranoid we're hiding anything from you):

"Battling a promoter in court carries risk. This isn't Judge Judy. A lawsuit could take months, years to be resolved. However Ward maintains that he is willing to fight for Goossen while the lawsuit plays out. But he says he has not had one legitimate offer from Goossen since December. Names like Sakio Bika, James DeGale and Anthony Dirrell have been floated but, says Ward, those fights represent a step back. And while there has been a public push for Ward to move up to light heavyweight--specifically for a fight with Sergey Kovalev--Ward says there are still plenty of opponents for him in the super middleweight division.
"I'm not a light heavyweight," Ward said. "That's just what it is. I know there has been a lot of noise about Kovalev, but that's one fight. That's not even a pay per view fight. When I go there, and we beat Kovalev, they are going to say he is just a puncher, that he is one dimensional. Then where do I go? There are options at 168. [Gennady] Golovkin is an option. [Julio Cesar] Chavez is an option. But those guys have been allowed to circumvent fighting the best guy. Golovkin has built his reputation saying he will fight anybody. I'm raising my hand. I'm somebody. Let's do it."


http://www.si.com/mma/2014/05/07/andre-ward-dan-goossen-antonio-leonard-promoter-dispute

Here, Tom Leoffler explains why a Ward fight isn't financially viable at present:

http://www.boxingscene.com/golovkin-ward-promoter-see-financial-sense--80389

The only way Ward-Golovkin can be made (sadly) is if both can attain PPV status. Golovkin, looks to be on his way.

The bolded words in the Ward quote you posted are exactly my point.

Golovkin's trainer said on Saturday that they would fight Ward albeit that Golovkin would have to be better paid than Ward.

I've posted the quote already but here it is again:

“We are ready to fight Andre Ward, but only if he will understand that Gennady is a bigger star, bigger draw.”


http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/coaches-corner-abel-sanchez-golovkin-graham-shaw-geale-253890

Once again though Strongy, what is wrong with them stating that. GGG is the bigger draw. He's been doing similar and bigger numbers to Ward against lesser opposition (your words,)

Therefore in the interests of fairness (something else you've bleated on about,) surely he should be paid more than Ward and if Ward doesn't agree to that well what a ducker he is.

(Note:I'm sure someone posted on here the problems of trying to sort out a fight with Ward while he's having issues with his promoter.)

Also are you still stating that GGG isn't avoided and is a ducker or are you stating that he's using his position as an avoided fighter to try and get himself the big fights?

I think we're all lost on where you stand as you've changed your argument that much.

Derbymanc wrote:Once again though Strongy, what is wrong with them stating that. GGG is the bigger draw. He's been doing similar and bigger numbers to Ward against lesser opposition (your words,)

Therefore in the interests of fairness (something else you've bleated on about,) surely he should be paid more than Ward and if Ward doesn't agree to that well what a ducker he is.

(Note:I'm sure someone posted on here the problems of trying to sort out a fight with Ward while he's having issues with his promoter.)

Also are you still stating that GGG isn't avoided and is a ducker or are you stating that he's using his position as an avoided fighter to try and get himself the big fights?

I think we're all lost on where you stand as you've changed your argument that much.

I have never changed my argument. In fact I have had to state what my argument is on a number of occasions in this thread.

That is: Golovkin's team are spin merchants and it is a myth that Golovkin can't get a fight.

Yet it has been shown several times on this thread that he's offered fights and the other fighters have dropped out (Geale and Chavez being two)

He's also listed who he wants to fight and you yourself have said that he won't get Cotto and Alvarez yet as they're going to be looking at fighting each other.

Ward is tied up with his promoter and wants the max he can get which he doesn't deserve.

Who in your opinion should he be targetting now and can you give us a rough idea of what you think are acceptable terms for him. Just so we know where your coming from.

Oh can you also explain why he won't find the same problems at SMW then he is facing at MW since the only person I can find that's even mentioned him is Ward who has his own issues at the moment.

Its a myth golovkin cant get any of the top names to face him when you ignore everyone that isnt interesting in facing him and pick a contractually wrangled, fights twice a decade, doesnt sell Andre Ward as the only option. On the basis Ward saying his promoter isnt putting him on the market but if he was he would be interested in the fight. "Hey Il fight you in Califarnia. I want most of the money. I want you to move to my weight class. Oh and you will have to negotiate past my promoter to make it happen as Im currently involved in several court battles with him. Interested??"

Ha!!

Why should Ward take less money?

Golovkin would be the challenger for Ward's title if they met at 168 not the other way around so Ward takes the lions share.

Golovkin needs a Ward, Cotto or Canelo to make him a superstar so his team saying he wants the bigger share against Ward, in my mind, basically rules him out as there's no way Ward takes less money than a challenger moving up a weight who hasn't fought anyone decent.

Agree that's the way it should be in principle, Ranjit, but it hasn't always worked out like that, even for top pound for pounders like Ward.

Similarities between Ward and Whitaker back in the nineties in the sense that everyone knows how good they are, but just don't feel that inclined to shell out to see them. As a result, though it was Whitaker who was the champion, guys like Chavez and De la Hoya both got a lot more than Pea when they challenged him for his Welterweight title (Chavez $5m to Whitaker's 3, and De la Hoya $10m to Whitaker's 6).

Taking about 40% of the purse against Golovkin probably still makes Ward more money than taking, say, 65% of the purse against someone like Edwin Rodriguez, but it's an ego thing with some fighters. Sometimes, conceding the high end of the money to an opponent makes them feel as if they've already given him a head start in the mind battle, particuarly if they're giving up the money to someone who is challenging them, rather than being the other way round.

Other exceptional fighters as well as someone like Whitaker have just had to bite the bullet in that respect before, and who knows, maybe Ward will have to in the future as well. Personally if he were matched with Golovkin I'd like to see Ward getting the btter share, but that's a utopic view!

Whilst obviously this is as utopian as Chris' view you would like to think pragmatism and cool heads would prevail in any Golovkin vs Ward negotiations. Golovkin cannot tempt anyone in his own division and Ward has run out of options in his own division, add into that his inactivity and lack of box office appeal and you would like to think both need each other as badly as the other and will enter negotiations in that spirit. Would not particularly hold my breath on that one though!

@Ranjit, the reason GGG can ask for more is that he brings the most money to the table (ie paying customers) if you go through the read you'll find viewing figures for both fighters somewhere.

In a perfect world, GGG would be fighting to unify the MW division before moving up but that doesn't look likely too happen due to the other fighters at his weight chasing other goals.

I still don't understand the clamouring by people for GGG to move up and give in to Wards demands when the exact same thing that's happened to GGG is happening to Ward.   

Derbymanc wrote:@Ranjit, the reason GGG can ask for more is that he brings the most money to the table (ie paying customers) if you go through the read you'll find viewing figures for both fighters somewhere.

In a perfect world, GGG would be fighting to unify the MW division before moving up but that doesn't look likely too happen due to the other fighters at his weight chasing other goals.

I still don't understand the clamouring by people for GGG to move up and give in to Wards demands when the exact same thing that's happened to GGG is happening to Ward.   

Because we're fed up with Ward and his camp dragging their heels so we've moved onto GGG's team in the hope that they can give all a fight to get excited about?

ANYWAY....good puncher that Golovkin lad eh? You want big drama?

Golovkin can ask for more money but won't get it until he shows that his HBO figures are replicated on PPV, once he makes the step up.

Just because Golovkins team say he should have a greater share doesn't mean Ward should roll over and accept.
Why are his team even mentioning the subject of money before its even been discussed with Ward?

Why is Ward even being mentioned at all? Its a non starter.

RanjitPatel wrote:Golovkin can ask for more money but won't get it until he shows that his HBO figures are replicated on PPV, once he makes the step up.

Just because Golovkins team say he should have a greater share doesn't mean Ward should roll over and accept.
Why are his team even mentioning the subject of money before its even been discussed with Ward?

Because Strongy brought Ward up as a fighter that GGG was avoiding (read the thread, it's mentioned numerous times.)

GGG shouldn't have to face Ward at all and if they do it should really be a 50/50 split due to Wards unmarketability and GGG's unproven PPV status, although the fact that he's bringing in the fans despite fighting lesser mw fighters (again not my words) puts GGG in the driving seat.

Ok I agree to a 50/50 split. They can fight now.

To be fair, when it comes time to fight, I don't imagine they'll fanny about arguing over purses, gloves etc. When the money's right they'll just crack on.

Two fighters who will fight anyone.

RanjitPatel wrote:Ok I agree to a 50/50 split. They can fight now.

You do realise Wards got a load of promotional issues to sort out as well? (And he's boring to watch)

I don't really see the rush for this fight and think it's used as an excuse to try and state GGG is avoiding people rather than the other way round. even if it was something everyone was clamouring for there's just too many issues involved.

Yeah I know that Ward has promotional issues.
Golovkin could be a superstar if he could get the fights and its commendable that he wants to clean out his division. I just think he annihilates Cotto, Canelo and Quillin but its very unlikely that they'll fight him. Canelo said before he fought Lara that he plans on staying at 154 (or 155 that he's recently competed at) and I wouldn't be surprised if that's golovkin related. Pure speculation though. Cotto won't fight Golovkin, no chance, so moving up is what he's going to have to do to get the big fights. Ward is in that category.

As much as Golovkin wants to clear out the Middleweights and deserves to be crowned undisputed Middleweight champion I think he should just accept that the fights he wants aren't going to happen and move on up. At 32 years old age is not on his side, he can't spent much longer treading water hoping a big name wants to chuck him a bone and volunteer to get their face smashed in. The top 10 in the Super Middleweight division is a bit better for talent and probably has easier fights to make down the line. Get a fight or two under his belt there then look at Ward, Dirrell (if he returns in some form), Groves, Froch, Chavez, the other Dirrell. A lot can change in 6 months so by the start of next year he could have a whole different set of options to what he has now.

Problem is that the SM guys have the same dilemma. They want to hold onto their belts or secure themselves a lucrative title shot and aren't going to risk it against the likes of GGG who, as good as he may prove to be, will not get them a fraction of the money and presents a significant risk.

Unless Golovkin is prepared to take a significant pay cut in the hope that a decent win will propel him onto bigger and better things, the SM guys will keep him at arms length as he has nothing to offer them or bargain with at the moment either.

All hail President Golovkin, leader of the "Who Needs him?" party

I don't think the super middleweight division is like that Dave, there's very few fights if any that haven't been made and they all seem willing to fight anybody. There isn't a single division that compares with regards to the top names taking on risky fights consistently.

Fights against ranked opponents.

Ward- 7
Froch- 11
Kessler- 10
Abraham- 7
Bika- 6

These aren't fighters who shirk a challenge, granted it's a bit different with regards to Abraham now but if Bika was offered a Golovkin fight can't imagine him running scared.

DAVE667 wrote:Problem is that the SM guys have the same dilemma. They want to hold onto their belts or secure themselves a lucrative title shot and aren't going to risk it against the likes of GGG who, as good as he may prove to be, will not get them a fraction of the money and presents a significant risk.

Unless Golovkin is prepared to take a significant pay cut in the hope that a decent win will propel him onto bigger and better things, the SM guys will keep him at arms length as he has nothing to offer them or bargain with at the moment either.

All hail President Golovkin, leader of the "Who Needs him?" party

Lucrative shot against who? Ward? Froch? I think most guys will be in the same boat as Golovkin where they'll generate a lot of cash with a decent opponent but can't do it themselves. There's no Cotto or potentially a Floyd or Canelo moving up to win the lottery and get a fight against. Closest is Chavez Jr if you want to hold out for the short end of the purse against a fighter who won't make weight and fills out two judges score cards himself between rounds. Also Golovkin at Super Middleweight is an unknown, if his power doesn't carry he becomes an awful lot more beatable and people might see it as a decent scalp at lower risk than first thought.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't think the super middleweight division is like that Dave, there's very few fights if any that haven't been made and they all seem willing to fight anybody. There isn't a single division that compares with regards to the top names taking on risky fights consistently.

Fights against ranked opponents.

Ward- 7
Froch- 11
Kessler- 10
Abraham- 7
Bika- 6

These aren't fighters who shirk a challenge, granted it's a bit different with regards to Abraham now but if Bika was offered a Golovkin fight can't imagine him running scared.

Bika doesn't scare easy, have you seen his Wife?

bellchees wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Problem is that the SM guys have the same dilemma. They want to hold onto their belts or secure themselves a lucrative title shot and aren't going to risk it against the likes of GGG who, as good as he may prove to be, will not get them a fraction of the money and presents a significant risk.

Unless Golovkin is prepared to take a significant pay cut in the hope that a decent win will propel him onto bigger and better things, the SM guys will keep him at arms length as he has nothing to offer them or bargain with at the moment either.

All hail President Golovkin, leader of the "Who Needs him?" party

Lucrative shot against who? Ward? Froch? I think most guys will be in the same boat as Golovkin where they'll generate a lot of cash with a decent opponent but can't do it themselves. There's no Cotto or potentially a Floyd or Canelo moving up to win the lottery and get a fight against. Closest is Chavez Jr if you want to hold out for the short end of the purse against a fighter who won't make weight and fills out two judges score cards himself between rounds. Also Golovkin at Super Middleweight is an unknown, if his power doesn't carry he becomes an awful lot more beatable and people might see it as a decent scalp at lower risk than first thought.

Good summation of Chavez.  

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't think the super middleweight division is like that Dave, there's very few fights if any that haven't been made and they all seem willing to fight anybody. There isn't a single division that compares with regards to the top names taking on risky fights consistently.

Fights against ranked opponents.

Ward- 7
Froch- 11
Kessler- 10
Abraham- 7
Bika- 6

These aren't fighters who shirk a challenge, granted it's a bit different with regards to Abraham now but if Bika was offered a Golovkin fight can't imagine him running scared.

Ranked with who? I could get you an alphabet rating for a few bob and a wink.

To be fair, the same could be said of Ward (about moving up). Moving to light heavyweight could see him land fights with Kovalev, Stevenson and Hopkins (as horrid as that would be) but as Ward is on record as saying, he's a super middleweight and no more. I think Golovkin could be in the same boat -- he walks around at 170 apparently. I'm a firm believer that not all fighters are made for rattling though weight divisions. Look at Broner, he went from an imperious-looking talent to an ineffective welterweight in a flash.

Golovkin might be willing to give away weight to Chavez as the Mexican's a limited big man who offers huge rewards. Like Ward, though, Golovkin isn't huge at his own weight and might struggle up at 168.

He deserves the chance to win the championship at 160 (the same chance Ward was afforded at 168) nevertheless. When a potentially great one comes along like Golovkin, fighters will gravitate towards them in time.

And let's face it, it's fun watching him wait in line. I can't wait to see him out again.

hazharrison wrote:To be fair, the same could be said of Ward (about moving up). Moving to light heavyweight could see him land fights with Kovalev, Stevenson and Hopkins (as horrid as that would be) but as Ward is on record as saying, he's a super middleweight and no more. I think Golovkin could be in the same boat -- he walks around at 170 apparently. I'm a firm believer that not all fighters are made for rattling though weight divisions. Look at Broner, he went from an imperious-looking talent to an ineffective welterweight in a flash.

Golovkin might be willing to give away weight to Chavez as the Mexican's a limited big man who offers huge rewards. Like Ward, though, Golovkin isn't huge at his own weight and might struggle up at 168.

He deserves the chance to win the championship at 160 (the same chance Ward was afforded at 168) nevertheless. When a potentially great one comes along like Golovkin, fighters will gravitate towards them in time.

And let's face it, it's fun watching him wait in line. I can't wait to see him out again.

Not so fun for the Geales and Adamas of this world who he smashes to pieces in the queue!

I don't think Ward would struggle a great deal going up to Light Heavyweight, he's very strong at Super Middleweight but doesn't wear guys down with his size. It tends to be your face first plodders trading on size who move up and realise they don't carry a massive weight advantage anymore and can't just bulldoze through someone who is actually as big as them who struggle, like Rios. Broner is a bit different and is clearly skilled but still always relied on his size at SFW and Lightweight, should have been up at Light Welterweight learning his craft fighting guys his own size instead of just cutting huge amounts of weight for the weigh in as you can only do that for so long, very short sighted.

I wouldn't