A Dozen Problems at Inside Centre

At the moment there is a real lack of centres who are consistently doing well in the inside centre/second five eight role. New Zealand, as with most things in rugby, have set the benchmark and probably have the two best in the world playing for their team in Ma'a Nonu and Sonny Bill Williams. Outside of that it looks very bleak. Australia, who I believe have the best backline of any team in world rugby, do not even have a number 12 who is delivering. Matt Giteau is a shadow of his former self and they have experimented with both Berrick Barnes and Digby Ioane in that role with limited success. I suspect that we may well see either Quade Cooper or James O'Connor playing at 12 in the World Cup with the other lining out at 10.


In this year's 6 Nations I think we really failed to see consistent performances from any of the inside centres. Established stars like Gordon Darcy and Yannick Jauzion failed to impress. Declan Kidney chose to keep the failing Leinster man in the team resisting calls for the inclusion of Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden. France, by contrast, decided to start four different players in the 12 shirt; Jauzion, Traille, Mermoz and Estebanez. None of them really delivered and Jauzion has actually lost out in playing in the World Cup. Scotland and Italy failed to provide a champion at inside centre and for England and Wales it was a long way from the days of Will Greenwood and a younger Gavin Henson.


Speaking of the controversial Welsh centre, a recent Toulon v Stade Francais game had the media and the fans waxing lyrical once again with a try and assist coming from Gavin Henson. To be honest the try wasn't really much it was just running support. But the vision he showed to set up the try was actually quite impressive. Despite a year or so out of the game and a controversial demeanour Henson could possibly be one of the best European inside centres. He may be a loose cannon but he is a very talented player. Its hard to see a team capable of restraining his temperment but the man has skills.


The question then becomes what is the reason for the lack of amazing performances in this position. Its not so long ago that Darcy was a 6 Nations Player of the Tournament winner, that England looked to move seamlessly between Greenwood to Catt to Flutey, that Jamie Roberts looked to be a dynamic and powerful option, that Jauzion was amongst the best in the world. Is it a change in the laws that has resulted in this? Is it coincidence? Is it a generation gap? Its probably a little mixture of all 3. There are some very talented 12s dotted about who are just short on top level game time.


It's important as well to remember that 12 is actually a hugely diverse position. You have the big bosher who carries up the middle - the likes of Jamie Roberts come to mind. You have the distributing second five eight who uses his flyhalf skills to act as a second playmaker like Riki Flurey or Gavin Henson. There are also 12s like Damien Traille and Aaron Mauger who provide a kicking option and take pressure of their flyhalf. Its an incredibly diverse position that encompasses a wide range of skills. If rugby is the game of all shapes and sizes, then the modern inside centre is also a position of all shapes and sizes.


All in all I wouldn't worry in the long run but there seems to be a bit of a rut where the top level players like Giteau, de Villiers, Darcy and Jauzion are not really performing to the same levels that we are used to. However the younger guys starting to peep through are not fully established yet. It is a problem position in my opinion at the minute but given time there are some very talented players across SANZAR and Europe who have the skills to delight us.

Remember the name Scott Williams.

Stag, the World Cup is where a few men will stand out. Centres have always mixed it with forwards. As forwards have got bigger, so have centres, but we expect them to retain quite a high skill level.

In Wales we have Bishop and Beck at the Ospreys, Smith at the Dragons, Hewitt at the Blues and Williams at the Scarlets, all young, all good. I still can't work out what the obsession with Roberts at 12 is. Can't pass won't pass.

Glas a du

My theory is for what it's worth is this.
Gatland as a lad had some reading difficulties, so his mam bought him a comic or two amongst those was one which featured a character called Desperate Dan, Roberts looks just like him and in taking Gatland back to his childhood he assurted his place in the Welsh team.

I believe his daughters favourite film is Forrest Gump, which is fine, but you can't pass forward in rugby.

I think there are good young 12s out there. Barritt, Allen, McFadden, Coleman, de Jongh but they aren't ready yet.

McFadden is. He would walk into Scotland, Italy and England's team. With another coach he'd walk into Wales as well. Remember he's a decent goal kicker.That allows you to pick a more attacking outside half, or adopt the Welsh system of one short range accurate kicker, and one long range hoofer.

O'Gara, Sexton and Humphreys are all good placekickers anyway.

But McFadden's boot is something that's great for us- he's got a sweet boot and it gives an extra clearance kick option.

I've already predicted he will be Leinster's 12 by the end of next season and Ireland's 12 by the end of 2012. I doubt he'll go to the RWC however.

Eh aren't we forgetting a certain young chap by the name of Luke Marshall? I'm already preparing my 'Luke Marshall. Tearing you apart since 2010 banner', in time for next season.

No Willy, but I don't expect him to be in the frame for international honours until he's between around 22 and 24. He's 20 now. Same for Nevin Spence.

I think a player needs to have proven himself consistently for 2 or 3 seasons before getting the call up. One good season is never enough. I'd give Andrew Trimble and Tommy Bowe as examples of players who were rushed from provincial level to international level. They went through periods of poor form and not looking up to it before being dropped, then recalled.

Tommy Bowe got given 0 out of 10 by a well-known paper after one of his early Ireland caps- written off as useless. A harsh judgement (especially as the same fickle Irish press were falling over themselves to practically suck him off after the Grand Slam) but the simple truth is he was put in a situation he wasn't ready for. Trimble did a bit better but he was exactly like Spence in that he hadn't developed certain areas of his game and at provincial level he got away with it because of his pace and power. Those weaknesses were exposed at times at international level and he soon found himself dropped in the fallout of the RWC.

Cian Healy is another one, but due to lack of alternatives. His first year of international rugby was very, very dodgy. Didn't help he had no decent tighthead alongside him. He's only now started to really come into his own.

I've no doubt that the highest level we should be talking about for Spence right now is Ireland A and Marshall no higher than the U20s. A full international cap is a prize both are capable of earning, but we can only hurt them by thrusting them into the spotlight of test rugby too soon.

That's fine Notch. Some players though only come into their own on the international stage.

Really? I can't think of a single example in Ireland since Brian O'Driscoll. Occasionally you get a young fella who just takes to it right away. A really special talent who steps into the test arena and looks like he's been playing for years from his first cap. But those cases are the exceptions to the rule.

We've had a lot of really good players come through since the last World Cup. Kearney really came into his own when he first started out, as did Ferris, as did Heaslip and O'Brien. They were excellent from the start. But they were already ready, you could see that from their provincial form. They had already came into their own. What you seem to be suggesting is that a player who doesn't look ready for the next stage at provincial level will find an extra gear once he's called up. I've never seen that in the last 6 years.

There's an element of sink or swim in any international debut. But if a guy isn't showing he has the all-round game at provincial level, nine times out of ten he won't be doing that at test level.

I can't think of any rough-edged player who's gone onto play better at test level than provincial/club level. Take Nevin Spence- he still can't offload or pass consistently well. That just means he has to work hard to develop that side of his game. I wouldn't expect him to start offloading the rugby ball like Sonny Bill Williams just because he's been called up.

Someone like Marshall is different- he's already a very mature, highly skilled player. Nothing wrong with his technique. But he needs more big game experience to get his decision making up to speed. Professional rugby is faster, you have to choose the right option quicker. You don't have time or space. I have the feeling Marshall could be one who gets fast-tracked because for him, the tempo is the only issue. He's already got the technique, physicality- all he needs are games.

The remedy for both of those young men is another few seasons of Magners League and Heineken Cup.

It must be a Welsh thing then. Henson, Stephen Jones, Lydiate, Warburton, Jonathan Thomas, Hook all looked naturals on the international stage without having 'pulled up trees' at club/regional level.

Don't forget George North, Glas!

Aye and him. Those were quickly off the top of my head.

I'd say North is several years short of being a true test winger. he's very good going forward but there are still suspect areas of his game. Those things only come with experience.

I think an enlightened coach could sort out North quite rapidly. It's clear he gets over excited. Whilst the others are warming up tell Georgie to have a five knuckle shuffle. Sorted.

I hope you never take up coaching at youth level Glas. You could get into a fair bit of trouble

No. Never. If I was to get involved it would be as a ref...


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Good Comments but,the traditional inside centre as used in the NH.Is not the same skill set as the NZ five eight. Essentially the five eights combine the skills,in th e case of Aaron Mauger,Riki Flutey,Luke McAlister,and a few years ago Pat Walsh.Often second five being the play maker.Nonu,is a traditional centre or wing,who has a kicking game but does not use it.Players like Adam Whitelock,Benson Stanley,Ryan Crotty are adequate journey men at present.Sonny Boy Williams i`ve not seen enough of to form an opinion.Players like Isao Toeva,ReneRanger,Ben Smith,Isreal Dagg,Richard Kahui all have the skill set to succeed there.NZ seem to have adopted the IC/OC formation recently.Many of there mid field backs arevery beefy now.and Ic was traditionally a crunching tackler,the man out side him the creator.Think Brian Fitzgerald,Ian Macrae,John Elvidge,Jack Mathews,Mannie Roux from the past.

Emack, does it depend on who your 1st 5/8 is then? I mean why do you need a playmaker at 12 when you have Carter, or us that oversimplifying it?

I've always thought of 2nd 5/8 as a back up 1st 5/8 in terms of skills but a stronger defender while the centre was a distributor and crunching defender.
I think about Horan and Little or Little and Bunce (whom I met the other day - with Cullen). Both not much bigger than me (and I'm Chinese so not very big).

Carter started at 2nd 5 and wasn't too bad at it.

Not sure why there are fewer top quality Inside centres than in previous years. I think there is a lot of talent everywhere ready, or nearly ready, to burst on the scene. I think it it simply a weird coincidence.

On the other hand, about how 12s are used, I have a few thoughts. Teams use their second 5/8 (aka. Inside Centre) depending upon who they have in the team.

When he came up and was learning the ropes, Daniel Carter played at 12 to Andrew Mehrtens at 10. Matt Giteau played at 12 to Steven Larkham at 10. Gatland in Wales has experimented with James Hook at 12 outside Steven Jones. In each case a younger, faster playmaker outside an older, more seasoned 10.

In England's RWC year, Will Greenwood, listed at 13, but usually positioned in the 12 hole when on offense, leaving Mike Tindall, listed as a 12, playing outside him.

On the other hand, Ma'a Nonu playes at 12, but is more of a straight ahead power runner, but with less ball handling skills than, say, Conrad Smith, who lines up at 13.

So, I think it comes down to a combination of the players a team has, as well as the game plan the coach wants to employ,

The 5/8 was the traditional NZ system and evolved from the 2-3-2 scrum and later the classic ruck.Literally they were a halfback either side of the scrum.The Wing forward rover fed the scrum,scrum half stood at the rear of the scrum then could go either way.Dan Carter is the latest in a long line of pivots,most can play 10,12,15[Carter at one time played all three for Canterbury/Crusaders/AB`s at the same time].It gives the flexibility for example Carter/Mauger were a right /left kicking combo.Mauger took the pressure of Carter at times,was also a very competent 10 and a better drop kicker.Pat Walsh started young about 19,was used at 15 along with Jim Kelly and K.C.Stuart[The 1953 All Blacks Skippers brother].To fill the Void left by Bob Scott until D.B.Clarke made the position his own.He was the brains behind the Auckland Shield winning side in 1960`s.Containing Whineray,Nathan,Herewini,Little and Dick all All Blacks.

I think all teams should have a second playmaker in their side whether its 12 or even a 15. The likes of Cipriani, Warwick, Hernandez are all flyhalf/fullbacks who can act as playmakers. Wales have used it with limited success with Hook and Henson at 15.

The second playmaker doesn't have to be at 12.

The second playmaker can play anywhere in the backline Stag. Take the French as an example, the 10 is actually the second playmaker, as they tend to play off 9 a lot more than other teams.

Whereas Carter dictates what New Zealand do, for France it is Parra or Yachvili who make the key decisions.

Back to the original post, there is a real lack of established quality at 12 at present. Nonu, Jauzion, De Villier are all world class inside centres, but all have been short of their best in 2011 so far.

LDCPete wrote: Back to the original post, there is a real lack of established quality at 12 at present. Nonu, Jauzion, De Villier are all world class inside centres, but all have been short of their best in 2011 so far.

Do you think its tied to nature of the position? Or is it an unhappy coincidence?

Coincidence I would say Stag. Nonu and Jauzion were both excellent in 2010 but form has tailed off this year. Giteau struggles outside Cooper and works better with Barnes, but Deans wants Cooper at 10 so he may struggle to get form back.

De Villiers got messed around by PDV last year and needs gametime. All will come good again, they have too much ability not to.

What about the mayhem we saw with Darcy in the 6 Nations It will take a long time to restore confidence. Should we be getting McFadden into the team yet?

When you talk of individuals like nonu not functioning to form,you have to consider the rest of the team.Hurricanes 9 Weepu,10 Cruden,11 Nonu,12,Conrad Smith.!4 Hosea Gear,15 Cory Jane.Of those 9,11,14,15 have been injured.Crudon is in his second year.,Hurricanes hav`nt functioned as the usually do hence Nonu.Chiefs vCrusaders last Saturday a fascinating and interesting match.Must win for Crusaders,most of there starters missing in the backs.Forward though not full pack was pretty awesome,Dan Carter not match fit.First near full run in a long time.played territory.applied pressure kicked most of his goals. If the Crusaders get a full strength ,side fit on the park someones in for kicking.!!For the rest of the World to ponder there was some ITM players on both sides really put there hands up.There is still considerable depth in NZ Rugby despite the exodous,incidentally Captain Tackles has signed up for another 4 years with the All Blacks.I missed out a vital cog in the Auckland 60`s shield team.Des Connor 12 test seach Wallabies /All Blacks a player with a Tactical kicking game the equal or better than Fourie Du Preez.Like Du P reez he can also be [and was a playmaker].I5 is not a playmaking position unless you use him as a super flyhalf as AB`s did with Don Clarke.Super Packs,defence,Don Clarke providing most of the points.

Luke Marshall will be the best of the young backs coming through at Ulster. For my money he has the "top two inches" to quote Eddie O'Sullivan and he will be Irelands 12. He has all the tools and i think he will displace Paddy Wallace for Ulster by the 2012-13 season (injury permitting).

An issue for 12's is to combine the physicality with the skill level. D'arce always had the physicality but not perhaps the pass/creativity, ditto with Jamie Roberts. Marshall from what i have seen has it all as well as a kicking game. He will be the next Ulster talisman after Ferris imo and i hope to God that Ulster and Ireland recognise how important he could/will be

Glas a Du - I'm so glad someone else sees the problem with Jamie Roberts at 12. He's a big lumpy wing ala Arthur Emyr. Given the dearth of options at 15 I'd be very keen to try him out there.