England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

First topic message reminder :

With the Anderson/Jadeja spat in the rear view mirror, we can all move on.

England name an unchanged squad, I'd be surprised if Plunkett didn't play, whether its at the expense of Jordan or Broad is the biggest question. Imagine they'll have planned on resting Broad at some stage.

And again! Nice way to finish it all off.

An innings win inside two and a half days of cricket, does not get any better!

Well done England.

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Can I just point out for those slating Woakes and Jordan (okay so they haven't been great) that many moons ago another England pace bowler struggled badly when he first came into the side for line and length etc and fans were on his case calling for his head. His name......Jimmy Anderson.

Take your point , Craig.  But it is hard to justify their places when they can't take wickets , and other pretty fair bowlers (Plunkett , Stokes , Finn ? ...Bresnan maybe ) are queuing up...

But as I type , Jordan has one...and two !  

Innings win   

.
My point is don't be so hasty discarding them on the scrap heap. Sometimes perseverence and trust is a wise policy as was the case with Jimmy Anderson and in football management in Sir Alex Ferguson.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:India hitting out and well set for the lead here.

more excellent work from Trebs, whose absence from these boards is of course the real reason behind England's recent struggles . Good to have you back Trebs

After a bad dip in form I had to get back to basics here in the village before stepping up again. Glad to be back.

Great win for England but what a capitulation from India!! Really expected a bit more fight and spirit from them. England though can take much from this win and confidence will continue to rise and players begin to bed into the side such as Buttler, Ballance and Ali.

Nobody's saying don't pick them again. More they havent really justified their places

who gets MOM? Broad? Anderson? Root or Bell? Moeen?

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:India hitting out and well set for the lead here.

more excellent work from Trebs, whose absence from these boards is of course the real reason behind England's recent struggles . Good to have you back Trebs

After a bad dip in form I had to get back to basics here in the village before stepping up again.  Glad to be back.

Well done indeed , trebs . I'd like to see an analysis of England's fortunes plotted against your posting frequency...suspect MFC is correct they missed you a bit lately.

As did we all , of course.  

GSC wrote:Nobody's saying don't pick them again. More they havent really justified their places

Suspect they won't both miss out. Keep a winning team etc...but Woakes might sit out The Oval if Plunkett is fit.
Jordan's slip catching is a definite asset.

See how Broad is feeling too , I guess.

GSC wrote:Nobody's saying don't pick them again. More they havent really justified their places

Yes but neither did Anderson. Fans were calling for his head and if they had their way he'd have been axed and look at the turnaround in his fortunes and he too struggled for any wickets early on in his test career.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:Nobody's saying don't pick them again. More they havent really justified their places

Yes but neither did Anderson. Fans were calling for his head and if they had their way he'd have been axed and look at the turnaround in his fortunes and he too struggled for any wickets early on in his test career.

Anderson was in and out of the side for quite a while to be fair.

Broad gets MOM.

Well actually , Craig , Anderson spent a fair bit of time carrying drinks on tours in those earlier years. Wasn't until 2008 that he won a permanent spot.
Doubt these two will be discarded totally ; but neither is going to play every game at the moment.

Yeah Anderson isn't a great example.

You cant keep picking people on potential, they have to deliver. Neither has nailed down a spot.

Broad MoM ? Fair enough. Make the bump on the face feel a bit better perhaps...

Team effort , really. Broad , Anderson , Moeen ; Root , Buttler , Bell ...and Cook deserves some credit for his captaincy , I think.

Nobody really stood out tbh. Broad probably the most notable bowling haul in a low scorer

well Broad averaged just over 4 with the ball, was leading wicket-taker, and finished with a batting average of +infinity, so statistically he's a shoe-in


On a more serious note, a real team effort from England as alfie says. Thought Cook captained very well really, got Moeen into the attack early and that worked out superbly, and his decision to keep the field up to Dhoni was a masterstroke (with hindsight, obv.).

Broad probably deserved the accolade on the basis of his 6/25.

I can't see England making any changes to the side if Broad is fit. If he misses out then I'd imagine Stokes would come in for him.

Early days of course, but this English team looks like it could regain the urn in a year, seem very well balanced, Good new ball partnership, a spinner who, while not great, is probably better than Swann2013, and a batting line-up which seems quite potent. It's all a little different when it's 150 clicks at the throat, but it's looking good.

Its nice to see them put their foot on the throat when they get a team down rather than helping them back up as they've tended to do this summer.

Listening to Boycott's commentary on Channel Five is the stuff of legend.

Bless you, Geoffrey!

--from an Indian point of view...not much to discuss...
They are mentally shattered.....and have turned more and more into jelly with every passing inning the start of T3.

--almost like Dhoni's objective was to win ONE overseas test...and then there is nothing more left to play for.

--so bad is the state of things that Eng simply need to turn up...and Ind will simply roll-over.

--what can they do from here ????

i don't know...it's a severe mental block.......cobwebs in mind that somehow need to be resolved....and unlikely that things can improve.

--they will bring back Ishant, probably drop Jadeja in favor of Binny again ( or Rohit)
and I think Dhawan should play again.

--But the enormity of the defeats and the nature of the surrender ain't gonna be addressed by merely some team changes......we will still lose..unless by some magic wand the minds are cleaned again.

--The test in Oval might be Dhoni's last test match as a captain.....if he fails to square the series....

Super Mo!! What a hero that man is.

KP_fan wrote:--from an Indian point of view...not much to discuss...
They are mentally shattered.....and have turned more and more into jelly with every passing inning the start of T3.

--almost like Dhoni's objective was to win ONE overseas test...and then there is nothing more left to play for.

--so bad is the state of things that Eng simply need to turn up...and Ind will simply roll-over.

--what can they do from here ????

i don't know...it's a severe mental block.......cobwebs in mind that somehow need to be resolved....and unlikely that things can improve.

--they will bring back Ishant, probably drop Jadeja in favor of Binny again ( or Rohit)
and I think Dhawan should play again.

--But the enormity of the defeats and the nature of the surrender ain't gonna be addressed by merely some team changes......we will still lose..unless by some magic wand the minds are cleaned again.

--The test in Oval might be Dhoni's last test match as a captain.....if he fails to square the series....

I do agree with much of it being mental weakness but remember that England had the same traits early in the series and rectified this. If India want to claim to be as mentally strong then they must show the same traits to come back hard (as England have). The thing is I don't think they can and will say they lack the quality as well.

Cook will have rather enjoyed captaining in this match.   

Wonder how much trouble the Lancashire groundsman is in now. £2 million for a test, only 3 days worth attendance.

kingraf wrote:Wonder how much trouble the Lancashire groundsman is in now. £2 million for a test, only 3 days worth attendance.

Don't think he can take the blame for India's incompetence raf!

well it wouldn't have made much difference if that storm comes along.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

KP_fan wrote:--from an Indian point of view...not much to discuss...
They are mentally shattered.....and have turned more and more into jelly with every passing inning the start of T3.

--almost like Dhoni's objective was to win ONE overseas test...and then there is nothing more left to play for.

--so bad is the state of things that Eng simply need to turn up...and Ind will simply roll-over.

--what can they do from here ????

i don't know...it's a severe mental block.......cobwebs in mind that somehow need to be resolved....and unlikely that things can improve.

--they will bring back Ishant, probably drop Jadeja in favor of Binny again ( or Rohit)
and I think Dhawan should play again.

--But the enormity of the defeats and the nature of the surrender ain't gonna be addressed by merely some team changes......we will still lose..unless by some magic wand the minds are cleaned again.

--The test in Oval might be Dhoni's last test match as a captain.....if he fails to square the series....

I do agree with much of it being mental weakness but remember that England had the same traits early in the series and rectified this. If India want to claim to be as mentally strong then they must show the same traits to come back hard (as England have). The thing is I don't think they can and will say they lack the quality as well.

there is difrence between Ind and Eng.
Eng put premium on test cricket.......Ind do not ..and especially Dhoni treats this as a burden to go throuhg.

another masala win in some hastily organized triangular....in subcontinental conditions and all will pretend to forget this debacle.
and those who do try to speak...will be terrorized by Srinivasan and their mouths shut in fear

Moeen is becoming a pretty decent spinner, he bowls with good pace and revs on the ball (if sky's thingy is to be believed) and he gets drift on the ball. Strong action too, he just needs to become more consistent and gain experience.

Second leading wicket taker in the series now ain't he? Impressive stuff from the beard that's feared!

For The Oval I'd be surprised if Broad plays, so I can see Plunkett for him and Stokes for Woakes.

It's time for Finn to come back I think. Been hearing good things...

Now that we seem to have a decent middle order we need to think about a new mainline bowler not a bits and pieces.

Beautiful Broad has broken his lovely nose. Gutted for the lad.

The weather for the fifth and final test looks much more inviting and pleasant. England can truly stamp their superiority on that game, against a thoroughly beleaguered Indian team.

KP_fan wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

KP_fan wrote:--from an Indian point of view...not much to discuss...
They are mentally shattered.....and have turned more and more into jelly with every passing inning the start of T3.

--almost like Dhoni's objective was to win ONE overseas test...and then there is nothing more left to play for.

--so bad is the state of things that Eng simply need to turn up...and Ind will simply roll-over.

--what can they do from here ????

i don't know...it's a severe mental block.......cobwebs in mind that somehow need to be resolved....and unlikely that things can improve.

--they will bring back Ishant, probably drop Jadeja in favor of Binny again ( or Rohit)
and I think Dhawan should play again.

--But the enormity of the defeats and the nature of the surrender ain't gonna be addressed by merely some team changes......we will still lose..unless by some magic wand the minds are cleaned again.

--The test in Oval might be Dhoni's last test match as a captain.....if he fails to square the series....

I do agree with much of it being mental weakness but remember that England had the same traits early in the series and rectified this. If India want to claim to be as mentally strong then they must show the same traits to come back hard (as England have). The thing is I don't think they can and will say they lack the quality as well.

there is difrence between Ind and Eng.
Eng put premium on test cricket.......Ind do not ..and especially Dhoni treats this as a burden to go throuhg.

another masala win in some hastily organized triangular....in subcontinental conditions and all will pretend to forget this debacle.
and those who do try to speak...will be terrorized by Srinivasan and their mouths shut in fear

Whether India put precedence on other forms of cricket should not matter one iota to mental mindset though. We are talking about whether they have the mentality to recover from a mauling (whatever the format be) so to accept there will be no response should be very worrying for any Indian fans should it not? As in this set of players (or a lot of them) will be representing them in the 2015 World Cup.

Noone could save this Indian team.
I missed the cricket yesterday, and later it turned out I really missed nothing, it was right out of the 2011 horrer show textbook from the Indian side.
England with only 10 men, with one of their most important bowlers missing the action injured, absolutely smashed a terrible Indian side by an innings with Moeen Ali the wrecker in chief. The 2011 lot could at least play spin, the new side that promised a lot in South Africa and then in New Zealand, and even in the first half of the series, has lost it completely. 3 back to back substandard efforts with the bat, they've ruined all that they managed to build up over the last 9 months or so, starting from the South African tour.
Unless they can turn things around in the final test, then they are going to be absolutely humiliated in Australia later this year.......

Maybe it's the tour fatigue? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Indians went to South Africa in late November, then New Zealand, then the world t20, IPL (I understand they don't get much time at home during this) and are now into the fourth match of this tour. They've been at home for what? six or seven weeks out of nine months? That's the first time ever they've been away so long for guys like Kohli, Puja, etc... maybe a collective burnout?

mystiroakey wrote:It's time for Finn to come back I think. Been hearing good things...

From whom? the sky commentators bang on about how fast he looked in a T20 match, but against Yorkshire in the CC and for the Lions he was woeful. I really, really want the lad back playing for England as if he can refind form he is capable of getting good batsmen out on flat pitches - but from what I have seen he is still struggling with his action, concentrating so much on avoiding the stumps at his end that the ball is all over the place at the other.

kingraf wrote:Maybe it's the tour fatigue? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Indians went to South Africa in late November, then New Zealand, then the  world t20, IPL (I understand they don't get much time at home during this) and are now into the fourth match of this tour. They've been at home for what? six or seven weeks out of nine months? That's the first time ever they've been away so long for guys like Kohli, Puja, etc... maybe a collective burnout?

The likes of MSD and Kohli had a bit of time, about a month off between the end of the IPL and the ongoing tour. Pujara wasn't involved in most of the limited over stuff that went in between.
May be back to back cricket isn't helping them, but most sides go through it these days.......

Shikhar Dhawan did not much to retain his place in the playing 11 for the last game, but Gautam Gambhir did nothing to earn it for himself, and has done nothing to retain it since. He seems to be finished as a test cricketer. Has seen no refinement in his game and made the same old mistakes. Rohit Sharma isn't test class away from home, so bring back Shikhar, Ishant, if he's fully fit, for Pankaj Singh as well.

Obviously a thumping win for England, but I honestly don't think other than the first hour of day 1 we played all that well (or needed to) - probably about a 7/10 performance.

Other than some remaining doubts about Robson, the top 6 appears to be fairly well set. In the longer term I'd like us to find another more aggressive batsman, but Bell and Root have shown enough ability to push the score on given a good match situation. Moeen's bowling is keeping him from being under pressure as a batsman at the moment - what odds at the start of the series that he would be easily the most effective spin bowler?

Buttler has batted well but I can understand the earlier comments about his keeping - things to be worked on there.

Anderson and Broad look to have re-discovered their form, but I'm not convinced that we have the right players or intent with the other two seam bowlers. Woakes may end up being one of those players who is excellent at county level but fails to make the step up (particularly as a bowler), while Jordan is streaky. I think one of them and Stokes are really competing for the bat 8 / 4th seamer position, and that we should be looking to bring back another specialist bowler (Finn, Plunkett, Onions, Meaker?) as the third seamer (this being the guy to make way for another spinner as and when required).

As for India - Gambhir is obviously shot, so they either have to go back to Dhawan, who had failed earlier in the series or look to shuffle the order.
Kohli - supposedly the star of the batting line up. Can't buy a run and is all at sea against Anderson in particular. The problem is that who is the possible replacement?
Jadeja - has bowled better than he's batted, but is in primarily as a batsman, so is he doing enough to justify his inclusion?

I actually think the seam bowling has been OK - Prakaj has had no luck, but I think would be the seamer to make way if Instant Karma is fit for the Oval. Kumar has been excellent and Arun looks to have something about him given his genuine pace. Can't say too much about the Indian spinners as an attacking threat based on this match, as they were bowling on day 2...

Seems India now have the selection headaches...

Hopefully Ishant is ready to come back for the willing but rather limited Pankaj Singh. With Aaron and Kumar (who will no doubt rouse his tired body for one last effort at The Oval ) he will make a decent pace attack.
Dhoni seemed to prefer Jadeja to Ashwin . Not sure why. I know Ashwin has serious limitations as a bowler outside India , but he can hardly be less threatening than Jadeja. Bats better too : I could see Jadeja being pushed out if the team (if I can put it that way without incurring the wrath of the Match Referee ) if India wish to restore Binny or go with an extra batsman.
Top order is a problem without a ready solution , it seems . Gambhir - Dhawan ...either way it's 15/1 at best...
Worst of that is Pujara is constantly exposed to the new ball...perhaps he may as well open ? Think Dhoni hinted at that in his after match comments...
Not sure who comes in to the middle order though ; will have to leave that to my Indian friends on here , who I doubt will want Rohit   
Did they bring a young fellow - whose name eludes me at the moment - over from the A team in Australia ? Maybe him ?
What they'd really like is runs from Kohli . But Anderson seems to have him in his pocket.

Shouldn't despair . England aren't untouchable - still have a lot of inexperienced players. But they need to come out fighting at The Oval...I think there was a touch of "we are in front , let us hold on to the lead" in their attitude after Lord's .
Reckon England will win ; but it isn't cast in stone .

Almost didn't notice, but Anderson just crept equal with Marshall in this test. Also closed the gap between him and Steyn to four this series. Can't knock his longevity

Kohli is in dreadful form. But he has lots and lots of credit in the bank from his performances over the last 4 years across formats. Yes he has been a better ODI player than a test player, but that's because he's an ODI great already, and is only growing as a test player. This series apart and his debut series in the West Indies, he has been a fine fine test player. He showed he has the game to succeed in challenging conditions and proved against the best in the business, Dale Steyn, Vernon Philander and Morne Morkel, and then against one of the best new ball partnerships in the world, Southee and Boult. A low was an eventuality, tough luck for India that it came in this important series. Even Rahul Dravid managed only 93 runs in 6 innings in Australia in 1999. Could have lived with Kohli not scoring runs against the West Indies at home later this year, There are the likes of Rohit who could have done it, we needed Virat to be on top form here, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Perhaps someone should put down a catch like Jadeja did to Cook that turned the series on its head for Kohli to rediscover his touch. He has attracted a good number of fine deliveries, and then that has affected his game so much so that the discipline seems to have left him for now and he's been playing at a lot that he could have left alone.
Kohli will come good, its just a matter of time, I hope it happens in the very next game.........
As the selectors didn't pick Jiwanjot or KL Rahul, and as Shikhar didn't do much earlier in the series, may be they have to go with the stop-gap arrangement of Pujara opening with Murali Vijay. The problem with the option is that they would be saddled with a seriously troubled middle order. Rahane will have to move to 3, and the incoming number 5 can't be expected to buy a run in overseas conditions anyways. Kohli is yet to find his touch as well. So won't be a smart idea. So then bring back Dhawan, or may be give Rohit a chance at the top, if he doesn't score, there is no unexpected damage, and it would be better if he gets out at 4-1 rather than say 98- 2 becoming 99-3.

kingraf wrote:Almost didn't notice, but Anderson just crept equal with Marshall in this test. Also closed the gap between him and Steyn to four this series. Can't knock his longevity

He's a world class bowler raf, just isn't in the same class as Steyn which in this era of having to compare everyone to everyone is who he's marked against

Latching on from a point in Alfie's post, I have no idea why Jadeja has been playing ahead of Ashwin. Jadeja is at best a holding spinner, nothing more. Ashwin overseas is the same really, but he's in a different class with the bat to Jadeja. Absolutely scandalous Jadeja batted ahead of him both times this test!

And both Ashwin and Jadeja should play the next game. A lot has already been asked of Bhuvi and he's just about managing to stay on the park, and Ishant will also be coming back from injury. Aaron has a rather fragile body. He can be effective when he's able to bowl with pace, can't expect him to bowl 30 overs a day effectively, so that 5th bowler is very much needed. Binny isn't that man, so it has to be Ashwin. He has ones again showed that he can bat at test level in different conditions. MS should quit being stubborn, and bat Ashwin ahead of Jadeja. Jadeja can't find the innings building batsman in him who can actually bat as he perceives the conditions unsuitable for that kind of batting with his technique. So leave him at 8 to try and slog the hell out of England, and let Ashwin who is a better batsman at 7 or even 6 with the captain batting at 7.

Olly,
the problem with Ashwin is that he can't do the holding spinner job anywhere near as well as Jadeja can do. He in fact just ends up trying too many things and leaking runs big time, thus putting the seam bowlers under even more pressure.
But Ashwin is a much better bat than Jadeja is, and as Rohit isn't worth as a batsman in overseas conditions and Ashwin is a better bet with the bat than Sharma, Ashwin can play as the 5th bowler.

Dhoni picked the no-hoper Rohit as ODI opener and thus led to the only half-decent stretch of his international career as a batsman. May be it could be MS's version of the Ganguly moment when he converted Virender Sehwag into a test opener. That too happened in England........ Would be more worth it, than playing him in the middle order which is a sureshot way to disaster

For the next game, yes. But it should be Jadeja's last Test. His batting is an absolute joke at Test level. He is nothing more than a blind, brainless, third grade slogger at Test level, even Bhajji had better application. He is basically a Zak with the bat with a bit more talent. With the ball, he is just a slower version of Vinay Kumar in these conditions. He can't turn a ball to save his life when Moeen was ragging it square. He just keeps darting the ball on middle stump even though its been fairly obvious since the NZ tour that such bowling won't work overseas. I know Msp, you are a HUGE fan but I hope you won't come up with hideous excuses this time around. The guy is simply not Test standard.

LondonTiger wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:It's time for Finn to come back I think. Been hearing good things...

From whom? the sky commentators bang on about how fast he looked in a T20 match, but against Yorkshire in the CC and for the Lions he was woeful. I really, really want the lad back playing for England as if he can refind form he is capable of getting good batsmen out on flat pitches - but from what I have seen he is still struggling with his action, concentrating so much on avoiding the stumps at his end that the ball is all over the place at the other.

He has replaced plunks in the England squad.

I would have played plunks next test as broad probably won't play, but as plunks is injured Finn should come in. Simple as that. All the England selectors think he is back. So they have seen a lot more than you

ShankyCricket wrote:For the next game, yes. But it should be Jadeja's last Test. His batting is an absolute joke at Test level. He is nothing more than a blind, brainless, third grade slogger at Test level, even Bhajji had better application. He is basically a Zak with the bat with a bit more talent. With the ball, he is just a slower version of Vinay Kumar in these conditions. He can't turn a ball to save his life when Moeen was ragging it square. He just keeps darting the ball on middle stump even though its been fairly obvious since the NZ tour that such bowling won't work overseas. I know Msp, you are a HUGE fan but I hope you won't come up with hideous excuses this time around. The guy is simply not Test standard.

Shanky, Jadeja should be an absolutely important component of home test sides and he can make it easily as a bowler alone in such conditions. There is no better spin bowler who can maximize the natural variations available on the track to his advantage, the Australians would know!!.
And if Ashwin can't do the containing job effectively, and Ojha can't fix his issues with the action, and if the remaining choices are the likes of Amit Mishra, then I would certainly have Jadeja as my led spinner in overseas conditions as well, particularly if they are going in with 5 bowlers.

Bit concerned with Finn's figures in the Lions game. He seems to go round the park every other innings this season , even though there have been some good wicket taking performances in there.
As roakey says , the selectors have seen him bowl ; and they presumably think he is getting back to his former standard. So he is a chance , especially if Broad is doubtful.
Not sure he is ahead of Stokes , though. And is Plunkett still on the "injured" list ?
Will be quite interesting to see what they do with the team for next week. Suppose they might also consider trying Hales for Robson ?
I said a couple of weeks back I thought Robson had the summer - and I have no real problem if they do stick with him - but he does seem to be struggling at the moment ; and this match might be a good time to see what Hales could do against a red ball at International level .(I really don't know if he can measure up : but if he could make the step up it would certainly help add a bit of aggression to England's top order.)
I suspect they will make minimum changes ; they like to stick with winning combinations. Could see just Stokes for Woakes , if Broad is OK.

Alfie

Same squad as last match - BBC reporting that Plunkett is still recovering from his injury. I can see both Finn and Stokes coming in, probably for Broad and Woakes. Jordan somewhat lucky to retain his place, but Broad's nose job probably keeps him in.