2014 Rogers Cup!

by The Special Juan Sun 03 Aug 2014, 6:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

As I said in another thread the draw for this years Canada Masters is up and you can view it on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Rogers_Cup) or on their website (http://www.rogerscup.com/men/english/singlesDraw.php)

Promises to be a good tournament.

by bogbrush Sun 10 Aug 2014, 1:17 pm

lydian wrote:Actually tennis is more lopsided than just about any other sport in this way. A pro footballer in the UK in the bottom division (4th division below Premiership league) can still earn $100,000 per year...they are probably around 1500 players down from the top. That's just in the UK. A tennis guy globally ranked below 150 is earning basically nothing.

Gerald Melzer, younger brother of Jurgen, is 24, turned pro in 2007. He's ranked #146 and been on Challenger tour a while. His career earnings? ....$26,000.

What I want done is for a much larger slice of the ATP cake to be given to the Challenger tour...which is the feeder of the main ATP events everyone on these boards likes watching and commenting on. The grassroots isn't being supported properly. If the Challenger fund increased 10-fold, which would be a pittance out of the main ATP & slam funds, it would make such a massive difference to the players and tour as a whole.

Tell me how a guy earning €1,000 as a quarter finalist on Challenger tour is supposed to make a living and cover his costs?
Do you know how many talented young players drop out because they can't make ends meet?
Do you wonder why there are fewer and fewer young players in the top 300...?
Tomorrow's talented sportspeople see the tough route to the top and pick other sports, given good tennis players are usually equally good at 2-3 other sports too.
That's the real issue we face - it's just not an attractive or sustainable sport to get into except for a very few. Tomorrow's "Federer" is more likely to become a pro-footballer than pro-tennis player and the sad reality is that this is exactly what tennis coaches are telling the parents of 7-11 year old kids.

Great point. All this 'maturing later' stuff is a rationalisation, not a fact.

The guys to have dumped Fed, Nadal etc down the rankings are probably playing another sport because of this.

by Silver Sun 10 Aug 2014, 7:56 pm

Shame to see Davy retire, will fondly remember a few of his better matches. It's good to see Lopez's star on the rise again though, #16 isn't half bad for a man of his age...and playing with his style of tennis.

Hoping for a good quality match tonight! Fed has struggled with Tsonga in the past, so he'll need to play at a very high standard to win against a Jo in good nick. But equally if JWT doesn't maintain his good form then he could be cleaned off court 4 and 4 and wonder what happened.

by Johnyjeep Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:08 pm

I can't find anything about Davydenko. Nothing on ATP website? Which seems a bit harsh.

I think if Tsonga brings the same game he's playing with all week he wins. Feds made 3 big finals this year and lost them all...I wonder if that's praying on his mind. I know we keep saying this but at his age, I'm sure he'd like to be converting as many finals as he can into wins. Maybe putting too much pressure on himself once the finishing line is in sight.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:39 pm

Worst match of the week this Fed Tsonga. Bit of Challenger quality.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:42 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:I can't find anything about Davydenko. Nothing on ATP website? Which seems a bit harsh.

I think if Tsonga brings the same game he's playing with all week he wins. Feds made 3 big finals this year and lost them all...I wonder if that's praying on his mind. I know we keep saying this but at his age, I'm sure he'd like to be converting as many finals as he can into wins. Maybe putting too much pressure on himself once the finishing line is in sight.

I read it on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source ever admittedly) and they stated that the Kremlin Cup this year will be his last tournament, like the FO was Llodra's.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:47 pm

Aggie wins the ladies singles, beating Venus in the final. This has been a good week for Aggie and it's nice to see her with some silverware again. She'd dropped off my radar somewhat after a fairly quiet year.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:53 pm

Allez Jo!! He's tearing the form book up this week.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 8:54 pm

Tsonga takes first set 7:5.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:06 pm

I've always believed in Big Jo... except this week where I haven't... back on the bandwagon. Just one slam J dubyah, just one.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:08 pm

Federer's entered full S&V mode now. Luckily for him he can play the ball to Jo's backhand and force the Frenchman into passing him at the night. Tsonga's backhand isn't good enough to do so.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:13 pm

Fed is sleeping. Tsonga sleep walking.

What a crap match.

Go Tsongaaa!!!

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:16 pm

I'm enjoying it, but maybe that's because Tsonga is winning it.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:26 pm

Two Masters begins to look like good career haul, and finally moves him past Berdych in the mythical "who did more with their talent" scale.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:27 pm

I don't think Berdych has much talent. He just goes out and hits the ball - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't At least Tsonga can volley!

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:30 pm

I tend to agree TSJ, Tsonga's also probably more explosive... but there was a time, when the forum was livelier, where this was a hotly contested debate.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:39 pm

MP for Tsongs. Fed delirious.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:43 pm

Sometimes the scrappy matches are great. This is certainly one of them.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:45 pm

Fed saves the game. Good fight from both. 5:5

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:46 pm

Hope Tsonga doesn't implode having had match point

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:49 pm

Federer can't touch the Tsonga serve for love or money. He plays like this in New York, it's tough to see him getting stopped.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:53 pm

Tie break, you just know Federer is going to burgle this one don't you?

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:55 pm

Come on Fed, give us another set.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:57 pm

Third set or not, Tsonga deserves it.

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:58 pm

One of the best tournament victories I can remember. Take a bow Jo-Wilfried Tsonga.

by LuvSports! Sun 10 Aug 2014, 9:59 pm

GSM tsonga Sad

another loss in a final for feds Sad

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:00 pm

And he does.

Well done Jo, earned it all week. Really happy for him Smile

Fed not bad, but hard for him to play 4 days in a row.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:03 pm

He did it! Overcame a blow up, and match points. Came back following a bit of a burgle in the Murray match, and properly kicked Djokovic while he had him down. Maybe, about five years too late, its clicked for Jo that he is every bit as good as the big boys? And even If they come back in a match, he doesn't have only one chance of putting them away.

Doubt it.

by Jahu Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:05 pm

Tsonga for USO final!!

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:09 pm

He's not though. His backhand is a liability and it's a reason he struggles to beat the big boys in the big matches. If he can get the serve and forehand firing though he's capable of giving anyone a kicking in 3 sets. I wonder how he'll fare at Cincy on a court which should suit him more than here.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:11 pm

Just realised that Raonic is on the verge of breaking the top five! I really would never have thought he had it in him.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:13 pm

His backhand isn't the best, but when working, its tight enough to for him to make up for it with better power, and a serve which is just on flames at the minute. His return game seems to have improved as well.

by **laverfan** Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:19 pm

Fantastic run and a MS1000 for Tsonga. clap

by The Special Juan Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:21 pm

kingraf wrote:His backhand isn't the best, but when working, its tight enough to for him to make up for it with better power, and a serve which is just on flames at the minute. His return game seems to have improved as well.

Now that you mention it (shots being tight enough), Murray's won majors and Masters with a forehand that can be described as "ok".

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:41 pm

kingraf wrote:Just realised that Raonic is on the verge of breaking the top five! I really would never have thought he had it in him.

I've never thought Ferrer had it in him.

by Silver Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:14 pm

Superb win from JWT, he really revved it up towards the end of the first set and never looked back. Federer didn't seem to have the capacity to click up a gear and match him this time. Well deserved, beating four top 10 players in a week, including the top two seeds - very few have done that in recent years! Let's hope he can kick on and put in a good showing at Flushing Meadows.

And because it's worth saying/someone needs to say it, well done Federer on making yet another final. 120 finals, 299 MS1000 wins - a good week for him and he got business done without being at his best. Will be very interesting to see how these two get on at Cincy now, as they're probably the two best suited to stopping Novak's march towards filling the empty space in his Masters cabinet.

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:34 pm

The Special Juan wrote:
kingraf wrote:His backhand isn't the best, but when working, its tight enough to for him to make up for it with better power, and a serve which is just on flames at the minute. His return game seems to have improved as well.

Now that you mention it (shots being tight enough), Murray's won majors and Masters with a forehand that can be described as "ok".

It's all about match ups, isn't it? I'm not sure how much of a chance I'd give Murray vs Federer in a major final because of the reasonably large disparity in their forehands. But Djokovic's forehand is a little less imposing, and it suddenly makes Murray-Djokovic finals very intriguing, as they match up pretty much stroke for stroke everywhere else (except second serve).

by kingraf Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:37 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
kingraf wrote:Just realised that Raonic is on the verge of breaking the top five! I really would never have thought he had it in him.

I've never thought Ferrer had it in him.

Ferrer to be fair has some ground strokes, and a very good return game. Milos has a massive serve, a clunky forehand, a meagre backhand, some questionable movement, and a awful net game.

by Haddie-nuff Sun 10 Aug 2014, 11:42 pm

Congratulations Jo you played some of the best tennis of the whole tournament... and you did so with such grace .. clap

by The Special Juan Mon 11 Aug 2014, 10:39 am

kingraf wrote:
The Special Juan wrote:
kingraf wrote:His backhand isn't the best, but when working, its tight enough to for him to make up for it with better power, and a serve which is just on flames at the minute. His return game seems to have improved as well.

Now that you mention it (shots being tight enough), Murray's won majors and Masters with a forehand that can be described as "ok".

It's all about match ups, isn't it? I'm not sure how much of a chance I'd give Murray vs Federer in a major final because of the reasonably large disparity in their forehands. But Djokovic's forehand is a little less imposing, and it suddenly makes Murray-Djokovic finals very intriguing, as they match up pretty much stroke for stroke everywhere else (except second serve).

That's so true. Federer v Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer (a few years ago). But as Tsonga has shown this week, H2Hs and match-ups don't mean much in a one off match.

by Born Slippy Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:00 pm

lags72 wrote:lydian's collection of trivia re the age factor is clear evidence that players are maturing later, and lasting longer.

But ..... despite the extended careers, and the impressive ability of many older guys (indeed several well beyond 'traditional' retirement age) to hold their own within the Top 20, we are yet to see this translate into title success at the highest levels :

Q. Of the last 50 Slams played, how many went to players aged over 30 ....?
A. Just three.

Q. Of the last 50 Masters played, how many went to players aged over 30 ...?
A. A big fat zero.

Plus ca change ......

I haven't spent much time looking into it but these stats seem unlikely to me. Federer must have won some Masters after the age of 30 - he went on a tear during 2011-12 which certainly included winning the Paris Masters for the first time. Pretty sure Ljubicic was also 30+ when he won his Masters.

In any event, I would question how many players who have turned 30+ within the last 50 masters had won a Masters between the ages of 25-29 (ie. their peak). I think there are three - of which only Fed was a multiple winner.

by sirfredperry Mon 11 Aug 2014, 12:46 pm

Fed, on my count, has won FOUR Masters since turning 30. The key here is not so much what the old players are doing, as much as what the young ones are NOT doing.
It's six years (Cilic it was) since a teenager won any ATP tournament. We now talk about the "young" players being the likes of 22 and 23 year olds. May be Nick Kyrgios will buck the trend. Thiem at 20, is another good young player.

by Born Slippy Mon 11 Aug 2014, 1:12 pm

So 6 of the last 50 masters have been won by players 30+ (Fed x4, Ferrer and Ljubicic). Ferrer and Ljubicic also won their sole Masters after passing 30. Only Roddick and Davydenko who won a masters between 25-29 have passed 30 in that time.

Perhaps most strikingly, the youngest person alive who has won a Masters is Novak Djokovic - age 27.

I think, in fact, the ageing of the tour probably is supported in those stats.

by Born Slippy Mon 11 Aug 2014, 1:28 pm

The Special Juan wrote:
kingraf wrote:His backhand isn't the best, but when working, its tight enough to for him to make up for it with better power, and a serve which is just on flames at the minute. His return game seems to have improved as well.

Now that you mention it (shots being tight enough), Murray's won majors and Masters with a forehand that can be described as "ok".

Murray's forehand, whilst it could be better, is probably at all-time great level for return and passing shots. It is a very hard "weakness" to attack. Its similar to Rafa's backhand in that regard.

by sirfredperry Mon 11 Aug 2014, 1:29 pm

Born Slippy wrote: Perhaps most strikingly, the youngest person alive who has won a Masters is Novak Djokovic - age 27.

That's a remarkable stat. 30-somethings won more titles last year than since 1975. Although the win ratio this year has not been so high, I think I'm right in saying that there have been a lot of 30-something runners-up in title matches in 2014. Fed's been r-up five times. There's a few 29-yr-olds who could add their names to the 30-something winners' list next year - Berdych, Stan W, Tsonga, I think, all turn 30 in 2015.

by Born Slippy Mon 11 Aug 2014, 1:40 pm

summerblues wrote:Yeah, I am not a huge fan of Raonic's game either. But I would also be surprised if he went on to win multiple slams. One, or perhaps two, maybe, but not more than that I think. There is something very "bulky" about him - even though he is shorter than Delpo, he gives the impression of being far more burdened in his mobility by his size. I just cannot see him winning that much.

Dimi, on the other hand, I think could really become very good. It is too early to tell where he ends up, but to me he could become fair and square a better player than Andy has ever been. So even if he were to become more successful than Andy, I would not necessarily think it unjustified.

I haven't watched much of Dimi but I have to say when I have I find his game relatively uninspiring. He clearly has some talent but I don't see anything in him which makes me think he is anything special - in the way that Murray clearly was in his younger years. What do you see in him - other than a gamestyle similar to Fed's - which marks him out?

by lags72 Mon 11 Aug 2014, 2:03 pm

My apologies to all readers - and specifically to BS who first spotted the error of my ways - for that incorrect age stat re Masters titles. I am usually careful to double-check any figures before posting, but clearly I was off the mark here and must have had some sort of mental blockage - not least wrt a certain R. Federer (a name which doesn't exactly slip unnoticed under the radar ...... Erm

)

I do believe my other stat, ie on Slams, is correct (unless proved otherwise ....!?)

As BS points out, the fact that a 27 year-old Djokovic is the youngest 'active' winner of a Masters (with Murray just a week or so older) is indeed remarkable. And given that the likes of Berdych, Wawrinka and JWT are all not far short of the big 'three zero', it does seem that the oldies will continue to be a force for some time to come. But this is not something I'm looking forward to, because I'm more keen than ever for the next generation to start making their mark on a consistent basis (ie not just the occasional upset win). On this aspect, I agree 100% with sfp that "the key here is not so much what the old players are doing as much as what the young ones are NOT doing".

Personally I don't think it's healthy for the game overall that the names at the very top look set to change only as a result of their eventual fading with age, rather than by virtue of a burst of new talent forcing its way through. But time will tell ..... here's hoping .....

by Born Slippy Mon 11 Aug 2014, 3:57 pm

Agree. I think a balance where guys of 30+ can still compete but we have younger players also capable to winning the big events is ideal.

As it stands, the impression I get is that Raonic and Dimitrov have improved but they are only making the in roads they are making as the top guys, for various reasons, have not been such a consistent force as a couple of years back.

by Henman Bill Mon 11 Aug 2014, 4:05 pm

A great win for Tsonga, taking him out of the "only won Paris" crowd and into the realms of actually winning one of the others, who is usually reserved for the big 4. And to do it with wins over Murray, Djokovic and Federer is very good. I don't necessarily think this is the start of anything more but the win in its own right is very good.

As for Roger, he looked below par to me, and despite reaching as many Masters finals this year as any player (tied for 3 with Djokovic and Nadal, while Murray has none) and a Wimbledon final, I think he needs to win Cincinatti, the US Open or the World Tour Finals, to avoid this being a flat out disappointing year. Although on a more positive note whatever he does for the rest of this year has already eclipsed last year, although that's not saying a lot, and may have been more physical issues last year.

Good to see more net play being used in the final, seems to be more common that around say 3-4 years ago.

by **laverfan** Mon 11 Aug 2014, 4:20 pm

Federer needs one more MS to match Lendl at 22.

by kingraf Mon 11 Aug 2014, 5:06 pm

With Tsonga, it really depends. I don't think he played lights out by any stretch of the imagination. He just has the game to properly compete with the big boys. Except maybe Djokovic, when the serve isn't quite there. Don't know if he has the belief though.

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