Pro12: any news?

First topic message reminder :

A month to go  until the league season starts......Any news on when the fixtures are out?

Sin é wrote:

Thats a very big 'if' there Chucky.

So the Regions backed the wrong horse again!

No. They sensibly made contingency plans. They said right through the crisis that RCC was their first choice.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

The Scarlets Operations Manager last week confirmed that it was a very real option, and talks with PRL were at an advanced stage in late 2013 as a secondary option if the RCC didn't go ahead.

Just think about that for a minute. Would the RFU and/or the WRU have given permission?
Would the championship clubs in England have bought into it?
Would the IRB have allowed them to go ahead?
Would it just have been an "Expanded Anglo Welsh" for a year while the Euro stuff worked itself out? (and then how would the regions pick up a place to play for the following season)
Were the PRL just acting the eejit stringing the regions along for their own purposes? (and if they were how dumb does that make the regions)

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Roger Lewis negotiated the BBCW deal previously (at least he was bragging he did), but it would have been done on behalf of Celtic Rugby

That was before Celtic Rugby actually had someone running it. It now has John Feehan as CEO (who is very experienced in this area as CEO of Six Nations & B&I Lions) took over the running of it about 3 years ago (after the last deal).

I did say that the Unions did most the work (obvously for free running the league back then). Roger got a good deal as far as I can remember as well.

Celtic League used to be based in Edinburgh by the way (until they came to realise that Dublin is to rugby what Silicon Valley is to IT).

A cesspit of corruption and egos? A bit harsh.

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Just think about that for a minute. Would the RFU and/or the WRU have given permission?
Would the championship clubs in England have bought into it?
Would the IRB have allowed them to go ahead?
Would it just have been an "Expanded Anglo Welsh" for a year while the Euro stuff worked itself out? (and then how would the regions pick up a place to play for the following season)
Were the PRL just acting the eejit stringing the regions along for their own purposes? (and if they were how dumb does that make the regions)

Don't shoot the messenger.

St. John -: Are Treviso and Glasgow actually union ran teams?  Serious question because I thought they were private clubs, so that would be a 6-6 split between the Union ran and Private owned teams in the Pro12.

Gallagher did resign from his post as head of RRW.  At the moment Mark Davies of the Scarlets is action head of RRW, however they are looking at getting someone in permanent (I memory serves).

As for you suggestions regarding the current setup and possible solutions.  I fully agree that in Wales the situation is there will always be people left feeling like they are on the outside looking in.  However the current regions are, even if attendances don't show it, garnering more and more interest and support as time goes on.

Oh and finally, you may be an outsider, but everyone is welcome to have their opinions, and tbh sometimes and outsiders opinion is a fairer one than that of someone trapped in the goldfish bowl.

Not shooting you at all. Just don't believe that it was ever a viable option.

Either the regions were complicit in facilitating whatever agenda the PRL were pushing. (not that hard to believe as they were between a rock and a hard place with the WRU)

Or they are really naive.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote: EG Stuart G resigning from the board of the Celtic league. How the F are they going to control their destiny without a voice in the league they play in.

Gallacher is not in the best of health.

and before someone says they want out of the CL and into the English setup. If the regions ever for a second thought that was a realistic option they are even less smart than I thought.

The Scarlets Operations Manager last week confirmed that it was a very real option, and talks with PRL were at an advanced stage in late 2013 as a secondary option if the RCC didn't go ahead.

On your first point that doesn't explain not replacing him. RRW are behaving unprofessionally here, and undermining their own interests.

On your second point, I simply don't believe that an offer was on the table. It would take a vote from PRL , Championship clubs, RFU and WRU to get that through. The Regions simply fell for some smoke and mirrors politics from a couple of PRL reps. Shows why they shouldn't be allowed out without someone to look after them.

I think glasgow are union run but Treviso are just a club. I think they're heavily financed by the union and have a license to play in the pro12 (that could esily be taken off them).

HammerofThunor wrote:I think glasgow are union run but Treviso are just a club. I think they're heavily financed by the union and have a license to play in the pro12 (that could esily be taken off them).

I'm not entirely sure about the Treviso licence thing, I think the Italian Union nominates 2 teams of whom Treviso are one. Otherwise correct.

St John The Enforcer wrote:Not shooting you at all. Just don't believe that it was ever a viable option.

Then the Chief Operations officer has just lied to the supporters trust of the Scarlets.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Not shooting you at all. Just don't believe that it was ever a viable option.

Then the Chief Operations officer has just lied to the supporters trust of the Scarlets.

No, he described things as he believed them to be, there's a difference. If he was being led along, but didn't realise it then he didn't lie.

justified sinner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Not shooting you at all. Just don't believe that it was ever a viable option.

Then the Chief Operations officer has just lied to the supporters trust of the Scarlets.

No, he described things as he believed them to be, there's a difference. If he was being led along, but didn't realise it then he didn't lie.

Righto.

I' don't think he was being lied to.

Chucky, it is obvious that it could have happened if there was no European Cup to play in for England - they had 6 or 8 weekends to fill in. Bringing the Welsh regions into a new cup would have been perfect.

The only problem is that the PRL wanted to play in Europe. They wanted to compete against the French clubs.

So he was persuaded that an unlikely outcome was possible based on a dependency of another commercial arrangement, that other arrangement (RCC) crystalised, so no deal. Perfectly sensible negotiation from PRL, naive position from RRW.

No lies, but poor business from RRW.

Interesting rumour that the delay in the announcement of the fixtures is due to BBC NI pulling out of coverage of the league. Heard that Setanta will pick up the Ulster games instead.

Have heard the same thing. In my version. Setanta outbid the beeb rather than the beeb pulling out.

Setanta have BT bundled with them over here. Split the ecc, now split the pro 12 coverage too.

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

This is what you get when the Pro12 as a central body or the Celtic accord or whatever negotiate the deals on their own.

BT behind it. To pi $$ off sky

So if true - it wasn't the stupid Welsh after all delaying the fixtures?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

This is what you get when the Pro12 as a central body or the Celtic accord or whatever negotiate the deals on their own.

Bearing in mind the battering the Celtic League have taken from the Welsh Regions and their fans, I'm just shocked that anyone wants to televise it. It is meant to be the worst league in the world according to them. You would think they had no competition and were winning it every year by the way they are going on.

Anyone outbidding BBC Wales for the broadcasting rights over there?

Chunky Norwich wrote:So if true - it wasn't the stupid Welsh after all delaying the fixtures?

Yes, the Welsh were delaying it as well. Their deal was only signed a few days ago.

Perhaps not indeed. Though I never expressed it in that way.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

This is what you get when the Pro12 as a central body or the Celtic accord or whatever negotiate the deals on their own.

Bearing in mind the battering the Celtic League have taken from the Welsh Regions and their fans, I'm just shocked that anyone wants to televise it. It is meant to be the worst league in the world according to them. You would think they had no competition and were winning it every year by the way they are going on.

Anyone outbidding BBC Wales for the broadcasting rights over there?

Not at the prices BBC wales and s4c pay.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

This is what you get when the Pro12 as a central body or the Celtic accord or whatever negotiate the deals on their own.

Bearing in mind the battering the Celtic League have taken from the Welsh Regions and their fans, I'm just shocked that anyone wants to televise it. It is meant to be the worst league in the world according to them. You would think they had no competition and were winning it every year by the way they are going on.

Anyone outbidding BBC Wales for the broadcasting rights over there?

Not at the prices  BBC wales and s4c pay.

Sorry can you explain that?

According to your earlier argument s WRU are giving TV rights away to the detriment of the Regions. So if they're such a bad deal why is noone else interested in bidding?

justified sinner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Make punters, and more expensively, pubs buy a subscription to both.

This is what you get when the Pro12 as a central body or the Celtic accord or whatever negotiate the deals on their own.

Bearing in mind the battering the Celtic League have taken from the Welsh Regions and their fans, I'm just shocked that anyone wants to televise it. It is meant to be the worst league in the world according to them. You would think they had no competition and were winning it every year by the way they are going on.

Anyone outbidding BBC Wales for the broadcasting rights over there?

Not at the prices  BBC wales and s4c pay.

Sorry can you explain that?

According to your earlier argument s WRU are giving TV rights away to the detriment of the Regions. So if they're such a bad deal why is noone else interested in bidding?

-Who else is there to bid?
-Who would pay those prices that bbc and s4c pay?

So what you're saying is that the WRU are achieving the best price for the Regions product. That doesn't sit very well with some of your earlier arguments.

Sin é wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Yes, you've made that point before. WRU negotiate with their partners in the Celtic league. A technicality in this particular point. I dont want any union involvement in negotiating TV rights for RRW home games. I dont want the Celtic league to give us the monies and bypass the WRU. I want RRW to go to the broadcasters and negotiate rights to televise their home games directly. I appreciate that this may be different in Scotland and Ireland, but you dont have the same setup as us. The WRU cannot be trusted under Lewis and Pickering and the regions are dismayed at the dismal efforts they have made in selling the TV rights (and there are other missed commercial opportunities). Like I said, RRW have more motivation to get a lucrative deal. Let them pursue it as part of their business.

Repeating again - the Celtic League is run by Celtic Rugby Ltd (which is a private company) with a CEO. Are you saying that John Feehan is incompetent?

What are you trying to achieve? Are you just trying to score points? Try reading what I said instead of repeating irrelevant technicalities. Also take a look at what the celtic broadcasters are paying for their product and how it's shared and then come back to me with the answer for your last question. Then perhaps you'll understand why I want RRW to be able to negotiate for themselves.

With regards to the other comments re Stuart Gallacher, you have to look at the resignations in the light of the RRW WRU civil war. It's about control and it's still ongoing. As for resigning from RRW I am also led to believe it's due to ill health. I will say this about SG - I wasnt impressed with him in his time as Scarlets CEO. Mark Davies seems a much more accomplished business presence.

justified sinner wrote:So what you're saying is that the WRU are achieving the best price for the Regions product. That doesn't sit very well with some of your earlier arguments.

No, they overpay into a central pot which the Irish and Scottish sponge off. So the WRU keeps the other Unions sweet in this respect.

Ah right, so we're back to the we want to play with ourselves argument. You do realise the only reason you have a product to sell is because of the league?

justified sinner wrote:So what you're saying is that the WRU are achieving the best price for the Regions product. That doesn't sit very well with some of your earlier arguments.

Regardless of what Norwich said, I dont believe we got the best TV deal. There is a great deal of disparity between the different countries broadcasters contributions yet all sides get the same cut. Coupled with the fact that Roger Lewis is an ex BBC man I think it's all been too cosy for too long. The WRU is trying to strangle RRW out of existence so that it doesnt have to pay off the money men. This strategy is killing the game here. If I were involved with RRW I'd go to court to make sure they can sell their own TV rights.

justified sinner wrote:Ah right, so we're back to the we want to play with ourselves argument. You do realise the only reason you have a product to sell is because of the league?

No we're in a "Roger Lewis is a   " argument and the regions are just trying to compete on a fair basis.

So how would that work then? Collective sales of league rights is pretty much the norm for all sports leagues, the standout exception is Spanish football which allows clubs to sell their own rights. Try selling your own rights by club and see how long you stay in the league, therefore no product to sell.

justified sinner wrote:So how would that work then? Collective sales of league rights is pretty much the norm for all sports leagues, the standout exception is Spanish football which allows clubs to sell their own rights. Try selling your own rights by club and see how long you stay in the league, therefore no product to sell.

No, it'll be collectively as welsh regions and yes I'm quite happy to see how long we stay in the league. If we leave there wont be a product for the irish and scottish regions either. WRU wont pull us out - they cant afford to buy out the money men which is why it hasnt happened already and why they're following their current strategy. All that's needed is fair play. When irish and scots broadcasters give peanuts and BBC Wales have a cosy deal with their ex colleague it is not fair in the slightest. When our regional partners get a bigger budget than us when our broadcasters are paying more into the pot it isnt fair. When your own governing body does nothing to back you and insists you toe their line - yeah, you guessed it, it isnt fair.

This isnt hard - RRW sell the rights to their home games, IRFU & SRU can do as they please with their own, or RRW replace WRU as negotiating partners when TV rights are sold and distributed. There are plenty of options.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

justified sinner wrote:So how would that work then? Collective sales of league rights is pretty much the norm for all sports leagues, the standout exception is Spanish football which allows clubs to sell their own rights. Try selling your own rights by club and see how long you stay in the league, therefore no product to sell.

No, it'll be collectively as welsh regions and yes I'm quite happy to see how long we stay in the league. If we leave there wont be a product for the irish and scottish regions either. WRU wont pull us out - they cant afford to buy out the money men which is why it hasnt happened already and why they're following their current strategy. All that's needed is fair play. When irish and scots broadcasters give peanuts and BBC Wales have a cosy deal with their ex colleague it is not fair in the slightest. When our regional partners get a bigger budget than us when our broadcasters are paying more into the pot it isnt fair. When your own governing body does nothing to back you and insists you toe their line - yeah, you guessed it, it isnt fair.

This isnt hard - RRW sell the rights to their home games, IRFU & SRU can do as they please with their own, or RRW replace WRU as negotiating partners when TV rights are sold and distributed. There are plenty of options.

Ah right, so now we're back to the our broadcasters pay more argument. I've heard that before, but never seen figures to back it up. It's my understanding that the biggest broadcast deal is with Sky which functions for the League as a whole. Given that was signed when RRW were doing their best to destroy the League perhaps that should just be split between the Irish , Scots and Italians?

The BBC Wales tv deal was one of the strangest ones entered into A lot of money for the televising rights to rrw home games in half empty stadia?

On the Celtic league split of TV revenue, Wales put a higher proportion of money in..... but that also take that same portion of money back (it isn't split by team) so they had the highest value deal negotiated by the WRU and were getting that cash back out.

The 'real' money gets made from Test fixtures in Wales. The RRW are looking for a better slice of that pie as they employ, train, condition the players for the national team. They also sacrifice potential fixtures and results by letting Wales host games outside the international window.

The RRW hope to get some more money out of the WRU, plain and simple. They have to look after the clubs they represent.

On the possibility to join the Championship and promote into the Jeff, would 2-3 seasons in the Championship keep all the regions viable (would championship income replace the lost income from the current situation with the WRU)?

Thank you, that's helpful. It shows the interdependence between the clubs, league and Unions which the RRW cheerleaders seem to be in denial about.

justified sinner wrote:Thank you, that's helpful. It shows the interdependence between the clubs, league and Unions which the RRW cheerleaders seem to be in denial about.

What a stupid comment.

Chunky Norwich wrote:We try and try. "You have a very pessamistic attitude." >>>>>>>

>>>>>> "This pathetic league isn't good enough".

  

........  

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Yes, you've made that point before. WRU negotiate with their partners in the Celtic league. A technicality in this particular point. I dont want any union involvement in negotiating TV rights for RRW home games. I dont want the Celtic league to give us the monies and bypass the WRU. I want RRW to go to the broadcasters and negotiate rights to televise their home games directly. I appreciate that this may be different in Scotland and Ireland, but you dont have the same setup as us. The WRU cannot be trusted under Lewis and Pickering and the regions are dismayed at the dismal efforts they have made in selling the TV rights (and there are other missed commercial opportunities). Like I said, RRW have more motivation to get a lucrative deal. Let them pursue it as part of their business.

Repeating again - the Celtic League is run by Celtic Rugby Ltd (which is a private company) with a CEO. Are you saying that John Feehan is incompetent?

What are you trying to achieve? Are you just trying to score points? Try reading what I said instead of repeating irrelevant technicalities. Also take a look at what the celtic broadcasters are paying for their product and how it's shared and then come back to me with the answer for your last question. Then perhaps you'll understand why I want RRW to be able to negotiate for themselves.

With regards to the other comments re Stuart Gallacher, you have to look at the resignations in the light of the RRW WRU civil war. It's about control and it's still ongoing. As for resigning from RRW I am also led to believe it's due to ill health. I will say this about SG - I wasnt impressed with him in his time as Scarlets CEO. Mark Davies seems a much more accomplished business presence.

I'm trying to get you to understand that the management of the League has changed since the last tv deal was done.

When the last deal was done, John Feehan was NOT the ceo of Celtic Rugby Ltd. The league was run from some office in Edinburgh with no staff and dependent on the Unions to do all the leg work.

As far as I remember, the BBC Wales paid something like 3/4 million for the broadcasting rights (probably as a favour to Roger). From this, the Welsh Regions supporters got the idea that they were supporting the league all on their own and that they would be better off just keeping that money and letting the rest go to hell.

What they forget is that:

1) The Italian Union was paying 3m per annum for the pleasure of playing in the league.
2) By being registered and run from Ireland, their earnings were tax exempt (the reason why all the rugby union companies are here)
3) The main sponsor, Rabo, was there only because they traded in the Republic of Ireland. They didn't do business in the UK.
4) Nearly every final for the last couple of years was held in Ireland (and mainly attended by Irish fans). The proceeds of the finals is what runs the competition.
5) In view of all of this, would you be happy to take your 3m, let the Italians keep their 3/4 million, the Scots keep their 180K and the Irish keep the rest - that would mean that Ireland would keep about 6m since they are the ones who earned it through providing the main sponsor and also hosting all the finals for the last couple of years.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:The BBC Wales tv deal was one of the strangest ones entered into  A lot of money for the televising rights to rrw home games in half empty stadia?

On the Celtic league split of TV revenue, Wales put a higher proportion of money in..... but that also take that same portion of money back (it isn't split by team) so they had the highest value deal negotiated by the WRU and were getting that cash back out.

The 'real' money gets made from Test fixtures in Wales.  The RRW are looking for a better slice of that pie as they employ, train, condition the players for the national team.  They also sacrifice potential fixtures and results by letting Wales host games outside the international window.

The RRW hope to get some more money out of the WRU, plain and simple.  They have to look after the clubs they represent.

On the possibility to join the Championship and promote into the Jeff, would 2-3 seasons in the Championship keep all the regions viable (would championship income replace the lost income from the current situation with the WRU)?

Lets not forget Bandwagon, that the RRW get 400K (100k per club) for playing one AI game (even though most of the players are all playing elsewhere now).

Yes yes, all the people involved in the regions are idiots who were strung along by the PRL. In fact it's almost unbelievable that they, even with all their inside knowledge about the ERC situation and PRL's plans, couldn't see this whereas a few blokes on the internet with, er, slightly less information can say with absolute certainty exactly how realistic the chances of them joining the Aviva were.

I don't think they knew anything about the ERC situation - they (or the PRL) didn't go to meetings.

I'm confused here, apologies if I get this wrong but from what i've heard BBC W and S4C have been funding the Rabo league in respects to TV deals for years, why are the Welsh getting flak in the league if they are bringing the most to the party?

Also from what I know, the European stalemate seemed to conveniently roll the way of the PRL once the regions decided they would listen to what the PRL were offering, which turned out to be nothing but the new European structured tournament, forgive people for making that link because thats exactly what it was, and a blwdy strong one too.

Neutralee - only in the Welsh Regional fans minds have they been funding the league.

The Celtic League Audited Accounts say that for the 10-11 and 11-12 season, the profit was 12, 683,647 Euro and 12,388,844 respectively.

We know the Italians were contributing 3m per annum for their teams (because they complained about it).

Roger was bragging about getting a great deal from the BBC (much better than Irish or Scottish deal) for about 3-4m.

That leaves another 6m of income that must be down to Sponsorship, media and gate money from the finals (which have been in Ireland since they started the play-off system).

I bet the Celtic League Ltd are on bended knee praying that an Irish Province gets to host the final. You wouldn't want to be going to Wales for a turnout, now would you?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Yes yes, all the people involved in the regions are idiots who were strung along by the PRL. In fact it's almost unbelievable that they, even with all their inside knowledge about the ERC situation and PRL's plans, couldn't see this whereas a few blokes on the internet with, er, slightly less information can say with absolute certainty exactly how realistic the chances of them joining the Aviva were.

 
Fuzzy I don't think the people running RRW are idiots - at least no more so than those running the WRU   
 
However how could four extra foreign teams just drop into the Aviva without causing complete chaos in England?
A few points from a bloke on the internet with no inside information just common sense to offer:
 
1 - RRW would have to get permission from the IRB and support from WRU to do it - they wouldn't have got the latter so wouldn't get the former.
2 - The RFU would have to sign up to it - highly unlikely given point one
3 - The Aviva sits at the top of the rugby pyramid in England - the Championship clubs would go ballistic if they were shoved aside for the Welsh and there would be court cases and injunctions flying right left and centre.
4 - Where would the Welsh sides have fitted in ? Straight into the Premier division, the Championship? How would that leave the English sides hoping for promotion to these leagues?
5 - Relegation - where would a relegated Welsh side go?
6 - Given that PRL have consistently opposed expanding the Jeff how could they suddenly accomodate an extra eight games per season - what sort of toll would this take on their players  - it wouldn't be like the Anglo-Welsh were you could run out the reserves/seconds for game time, with Championship points on offer you'd have to play your top players.
7 - No infomation but I'd suggest that the lower end sides would be unlikely to welcome more chances to be relegated by increased competition.
8 - European qualification - how would the Welsh sides qualify - allowing them to play in England but still have access to the Welsh places in Europe would be a hard ciricle to square - Cardiff finish 9th and get a place, Bath finish 7th and don't?
9 - Again personal observation but I attend a lot of rugby games, am involved in local club rugby and am on a few rugby boards and have not yet come accross any great demand from the English rugby fans to have the Welsh involved.
10 - Any RRW supporters who think that a Welsh side would actually do well in the Jeff (i.e. qualify in the HEC places) are as deluded as the Celtic/Rangers supporters who think that they would dominate the Premier League if only the English would let them in.

The French league kicks off in 7 days.

The Celtic league's fixtures aren't even out.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The French league kicks off in 7 days.

The Celtic league's fixtures aren't even out.

And ....?

The French League is bigger (and plays more games) than the Pro12 - it has to start earlier. Its also just in one country and doesn't have to cope with the Welsh drama queens.

(by the way - fixtures are out - just the times have to be sorted).

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The French league kicks off in 7 days.

The Celtic league's fixtures aren't even out.

And ....?

The French League is bigger (and plays more games) than the Pro12 - it has to start earlier. Its also just in one country and doesn't have to cope with the Welsh drama queens.

(by the way - fixtures are out - just the times have to be sorted).

It's August the 8th for goodness sake. When the crowds are poorer this season - this is the reason why.

People don't know whether they're coming or going in this league. It absolutely sucks.

And what were the excuses last season for the poor attendances?

I'll agree with Chunky, that it is annoying that there aren't set dates to the fixtures yet. It's also a farce if as expected some league games (Ulster v Dragons as an example) make way for a development cup competition.

Even as a season ticket holder, I can't even begin to plan what time off I need to watch Dragons yet, nor things like can I play or watch club rugby on a Saturday and such like. It is a bit of a joke.