A truly sad day for rugby...

Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

I could forgive that, despite the shirt being quite generic and boring, I have seen Stade shirts for years, so just put it down to Toulons stature, and the fact they have plenty of British players.

Then a few days ago while in Bristol I saw a few kids (15/16) in the city centre, 2 of the 3 were wearing Toulon shirts, and the 3rd an England shirt. On the back of the first child was written Jones, I'm guessing his own surname) the 2nd child had Wilkinson on his, makes sense as Jonny is the English and Toulon hero, however the 3rd child with the England shirt on had the name Basteraud. Now it could've been his own surname, however he didn't look like a Basteraud, and was clearly English through his accent.

Again this got me to thinking, now that the PRL and LNR virtually own the new european comp, and the RFU and FFR are looking less likely to control rugby union, are we seeing the first signs of a champions league style culture, where there is the dominant league that attracts players from all over the world, and the lesser leagues that essentially feed into the dominant league?

Toulons grip and brand have been boosted by huge success, plowed with an unlimited cash source, are now exposed to larger audiences, on a higher scale than ever before, and are starting to attract the eye of British children. Are we seeing the start of the death of international rugby? Is rugby going down the Football route of the haves get the lot and the have nots feed off the scraps?

Is it a sad time when british children would rather where French or English club shirts, they have no affiliation with whatsoever, over their own local clubs, or national shirts? Is this what this new competition is aimed at doing? Creating a champions league type structure where fans will support the few teams who can afford to compete, and succeed, because of a lack of choice?

How would kiwi rugby fans feel if their children started walking down the street wearing Bulls shirts?
How would SA fans feel watching their kids wearing Waratahs kits?
How would Aussie fans feel if their kids started supporting the Crusaders?

I've been pretty critical about this new competition, pretty much because it takes rugby a step closer to football, and is a step closer to taking the power away from unions and ultimately the international game. We've already seen a direct result in French rugby, the poor form of the national team has to be effected by the clubs actions, and therefore the national team is losing support while the club game picks it up, will this begin to happen in England also, some could argue the success of the Aviva has coincided with the poor performing England team which has lacked competitiveness since the early 2000's.

I could possibly be going overboard, but as the rise in club shirt appearances soars in the UK, my opinion on the club game, power struggle and new comp just gets worse, maybe I should move with the times and select an English or French club to support so I have some sort of involvement in rugby?!

It is with a heavy heart that I have to say you are absolutely correct to feel these concerns Neutralee. The problem being that unless something is done very soon about the disparity between the 'haves' and the 'have nots', rugby as we know it is doomed to be commercialised like soccer. We all know where that will lead.

I will be ordering my Toulon top before it's too late

I think you're going over the top. It's only a rugby shirt.

It's 4 rugby shirts chunky, in 2 different nations.

I asked a friend a few years back why I saw so many Osprey shirts when travelling around the A470, and valleys, and he told me the Ospreys had succesfully branded a succesfull team full of stars to the Welsh public. For years the Osprey shirts were in every rugby store, and later every bargain bin in the country.

When I was a kid growing up my little brother was obsessed with the premier league, not sure why because this was late 80's and we weren't living in a football nation. His favourite ever player was Paul Ince, he loved the guy, and subsequently loved West ham.

However when Ince moved to manchester united so did my brother, followed his favourite player despite contraversy and Inces poor behaviour to a team he hated the year previous.

So thats kids for you, they chop and change their mind before becoming truly addicted to a sport, or team.

Imagine todays early 20's youngsters, 10 years ago idolising Jonny Wilkinson for winning their nation the World cup, watching him week in week out playing for Newcastle, then he moves to France. They don't just stop worshiping the guy, they stay interested, want to watch him play, and win trophies, before you know it he's not in the squad and theyre supporting Toulon against Newcastle in the new euro comp (when they get there). Is this what we want? Toulon to become the man u of the rugby world?

Ah making a bit much of it Neutralee....ive got a Fiji rugby top, a bali one. I dont think its bad...i just like the way Fiji play and their top.

Ive never had another club teams shirt mind...only ever falcon tops.

If Toulon get the worldwide coverage that Man Utd get then maybe it's not a bad thing.

I still think you're getting being overly worked up. People have been wearing crazy Stade Francais shirts and Toulouse shirts for years round here.

I suppose it very much depends what type of indoctrination you use when bringing up your child in rugby, my son knows which teams he may or may not support.

But then, maybe that kid is wearing a specific jersey because his home town hero has moved to an overseas club?

Chunky Norwich wrote:If Toulon get the worldwide coverage that Man Utd get then maybe it's not a bad thing.

I still think you're getting being overly worked up. People have been wearing crazy Stade Francais shirts and Toulouse shirts for years round here.

But don't you see, Stade shirts were crazy, thats why people liked and bought them, the Toulon top is generic, and is much more dangerous because it is highlighting allegiance to them because they are succesfull.

So if Toulon get the coverage man u do that'll be good for rugby? Sheiks from all over buying these rugby clubs as play toys, signing players from all over the world and doing anything to become succesfull?

Are you Welsh Chunky? Would you like to see your region succesfull in all comps, but have no welsh representation whatsoever? Would you sacrifice that like football fans do?

Neutralee wrote:

But don't you see, Stade shirts were crazy, thats why people liked and bought them, the Toulon top is generic, and is much more dangerous because it is highlighting allegiance to them because they are succesfull.

That's what kids have done. For ever. Got the popular stuff.

So if Toulon get the coverage man u do that'll be good for rugby? Sheiks from all over buying these rugby clubs as play toys, signing players from all over the world and doing anything to become succesfull?

I didn't mention sheiks. I mentioned the popularity and profile of rugby union. But since you asked that's kind of how the pro game is propped up in England and Wales now. They're just millionaires not billionaires.

Are you Welsh Chunky?

yes

Would you like to see your region succesfull in all comps, but have no welsh representation whatsoever? Would you sacrifice that like football fans do?

I don't see how you've made the leap sorry. There will always be regulations stipulating that a certain amount of countrymen are represented in club sides.

Biltong wrote:I suppose it very much depends what type of indoctrination you use when bringing up your child in rugby, my son knows which teams he may or may not support.

But then, maybe that kid is wearing a specific jersey because his home town hero has moved to an overseas club?

Thats all well and good, a rugby father will direct his rugby children to where they should be, but todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

I see so many families divided in football club support, fathers who's sons support different teams just based on the experience they have had in important and vulnerable ages where they were succeptible to coersion.

Glory hunters.

Have you tried sending this to The Daily Mail? It would fit in well on the letters page

Neutralee wrote:When I was a kid growing up my little brother was obsessed with the premier league, not sure why because this was late 80's and we weren't living in a football nation.

Yeah, I'm not sure why either as the Premier League didn't exist until 1992.

Seriously though, is it really that big an issue? I don't think so. Kids will always follow their heroes and the biggest/best sides. There's often a call on here to grow the game but then when it happens there always seems to be accusations of the 'wrong' kind of growing.

[quote="Neutralee"]

Biltong wrote: todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

But that's basically what happenned in Ireland in the late 90s early 2000s and everybody hails it as a massive success. Check out their attendance figures in the early heineken cup.

Biltong wrote:I suppose it very much depends what type of indoctrination you use when bringing up your child in rugby, my son knows which teams he may or may not support.

I'd suggest letting him make his own mind up.

Chunky

Those stipulations are based on union power, the club game is becoming more powerfull and will soon overcome the union, meaning no stipulations

Neutralee wrote:Thats all well and good, a rugby father will direct his rugby children to where they should be, but todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

I see so many families divided in football club support, fathers who's sons support different teams just based on the experience they have had in important and vulnerable ages where they were succeptible to coersion.

Can these new, non-rugby people be trusted with the Holy Grail that is Union? It's no wonder rugby sometimes looks like a closed shop if that's the kind of attitude we're going to send out to potential fans.

Next we'll be saying you must first pass a test to provide you're "the right sort of person" for rugby and then only support designated sides based on qualifying criteria.

Neutralee wrote:Chunky

Those stipulations are based on union power, the club game is becoming more powerfull and will soon overcome the union, meaning no stipulations

Don't agree sorry.

Cyril

Whoring for a fanbase of an elite club and growing the game are certainly not the same thing!!!

You are a club supporter are you not?

Cyril wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Thats all well and good, a rugby father will direct his rugby children to where they should be, but todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

I see so many families divided in football club support, fathers who's sons support different teams just based on the experience they have had in important and vulnerable ages where they were succeptible to coersion.

Can these new, non-rugby people be trusted with the Holy Grail that is Union? It's no wonder rugby sometimes looks like a closed shop if that's the kind of attitude we're going to send out to potential fans.

Next we'll be saying you must first pass a test to provide you're "the right sort of person" for rugby and then only support designated sides based on qualifying criteria.

Ye I'm the elitist...   

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Biltong wrote: todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

But that's basically what happenned in Ireland in the late 90s early 2000s and everybody hails it as a massive success. Check out their attendance figures in the early heineken cup.

Club rugby was huge in Ireland in the 90s. Shannon used get about 6k at a game (while Munster was getting about 200).

Lansdowne Road was full (50K) for Ulster's final win in '99. And Munster had a couple of thousand down in Toulouse in 2000 for their semi final.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Biltong wrote: todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

But that's basically what happenned in Ireland in the late 90s early 2000s and everybody hails it as a massive success. Check out their attendance figures in the early heineken cup.

Club rugby was huge in Ireland in the 90s. Shannon used get about 6k at a game (while Munster was getting about 200).

Lansdowne Road was full (50K) for Ulster's final win in '99. And Munster had a couple of thousand down in Toulouse in 2000 for their semi final.

Support has increased massivley since the late 90s for all 4.

Neutralee wrote:Whoring for a fanbase of an elite club and growing the game are certainly not the same thing!!!

How is having a decent marketing strategy that involves selling shirts internationally and gaining fans from far afield 'whoring'?

Why should being successful and taking advantage of that success (which may be fleeting) be seen as a bad thing.

Should you only be able to sell shirts, merchandise and tickets within a certain catchment area? Should you have to prove your postal/zip code and ancestry before buying a product or supporting a side?

It just wreaks of the usual Toulon jealousy I'm afraid.

Cyril wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Whoring for a fanbase of an elite club and growing the game are certainly not the same thing!!!

How is having a decent marketing strategy that involves selling shirts internationally and gaining fans from far afield 'whoring'?

Why should being successful and taking advantage of that success (which may be fleeting) be seen as a bad thing.

Should you only be able to sell shirts, merchandise and tickets within a certain catchment area? Should you have to prove your postal/zip code and ancestry before buying a product or supporting a side?

It all depends on the marketing, running a dominant strategy in an area where noone has the capitol to compete isn't the best way, right now the big clubs in England and France see the celtic nations as easy pickings.

Like I said, noone from outside these countries will get exposure, how is this growing the game?

I have ATM

1x England shirt
6 x Leicester tigers shirts
2 x Natal Sharks shirts
1 x Australian shirt
1x Clermont shirt
1x Racing Metro Shirt
2x stade francais shirt
1 x Samoa shirt
1x fiji Shirt
1x Biarritz shirt
1x auckland Blues shirt
1x Rosario shirt
1x Brumbies shirt
1x Western Province shirt
1x Barbarian shirt
1x canada shirt
1x Japan shirt
1x Hong Kong shirt
1x RAF shirt
1x Scotland shirt
1x Toulose
1x Ulster

And train in all o them barring the very old ones.

Considering places like lovell sell top 14 shirt at like less than £15 with free personalisation on it and they are currently the most successful team in Europe why would you be shocked to see people training in them?

Also have 2x South African shirts

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Biltong wrote: todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

But that's basically what happenned in Ireland in the late 90s early 2000s and everybody hails it as a massive success. Check out their attendance figures in the early heineken cup.

Club rugby was huge in Ireland in the 90s. Shannon used get about 6k at a game (while Munster was getting about 200).

Lansdowne Road was full (50K) for Ulster's final win in '99. And Munster had a couple of thousand down in Toulouse in 2000 for their semi final.

Support has increased massivley since the late 90s for all 4.

Yes, the support has increased, but not ''A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.''

The 6000 that were going to Shannon's games started going to Munster games.

Sin é wrote:

Yes, the support has increased, but not ''A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.''

The 6000 that were going to Shannon's games started going to Munster games.

Leinster were getting crowds of 3,000 - 4,000 in the early days of the celtic league (2002). There is no question they've picked up thousands of a new generation of fans.

Welly wrote:I have ATM

1x England shirt
6 x Leicester tigers shirts
2 x Natal Sharks shirts
1 x Australian shirt
1x Clermont shirt
1x Racing Metro Shirt
2x stade francais shirt
1 x Samoa shirt
1x fiji Shirt
1x Biarritz shirt
1x auckland Blues shirt
1x Rosario shirt
1x Brumbies shirt
1x Western Province shirt
1x Barbarian shirt
1x canada shirt
1x Japan shirt
1x Hong Kong shirt
1x RAF shirt
1x Scotland shirt
1x Toulose
1x Ulster

And train in all o them barring the very old ones.

Considering places like lovell sell top 14 shirt at like less than £15 with free personalisation on it and they are currently the most successful team in Europe why would you be shocked to see people training in them?

Tart

Maybe these kids got their shirts CHEAP as more often than not they are in the reduced section of websites. I saw a Touon shirt for £5.99 the other day.

Neutralee wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Whoring for a fanbase of an elite club and growing the game are certainly not the same thing!!!

How is having a decent marketing strategy that involves selling shirts internationally and gaining fans from far afield 'whoring'?

Why should being successful and taking advantage of that success (which may be fleeting) be seen as a bad thing.

Should you only be able to sell shirts, merchandise and tickets within a certain catchment area? Should you have to prove your postal/zip code and ancestry before buying a product or supporting a side?

It all depends on the marketing, running a dominant strategy in an area where noone has the capitol to compete isn't the best way, right now the big clubs in England and France see the celtic nations as easy pickings.

Like I said, noone from outside these countries will get exposure, how is this growing the game?

The top 5 selling jerseys in the UK & Ireland have 4 Pro12 teams in it.

PS (Handy for Munster that Guiness are going to be using them to promote themselves in the UK)   

Munster are brilliant, aren't they? I hope they can show us all the way.

It would be a dark world indeed without Munster.

That Munster lot, eh? They never seem to get the credit they deserve.

Marvellous.

Can't say I am a big fan of Toulon but fair play to them.

If an English team could do that in France or Scotland I would be pleased. E.g. a French kid wearing an AP team's shirt.

Just shows that other clubs need to do more in my opinion. Need a kick up the backside.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Tart

 I  know.

 

I regularly train with people wearing Super 14 and Top 14 shirts has nothing to do with allegiance or having big money. It's where they've travelled to, met other rugby fans and brought home a momento.

Neutralee wrote:
Thats all well and good, a rugby father will direct his rugby children to where they should be, but todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.

So anyone not from a traditional rugby background should be banned from the game?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Yes, the support has increased, but not ''A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.''

The 6000 that were going to Shannon's games started going to Munster games.

Leinster were getting crowds of 3,000 - 4,000 in the early days of the celtic league (2002). There is no question they've picked up thousands of a new generation of fans.

Of course they have got new fans, but they did get 12K at Leinster v Edinburgh (HC) in 2001 (so they were not all completely new).

Cyril wrote:Munster are brilliant, aren't they? I hope they can show us all the way.

It would be a dark world indeed without Munster.

That Munster lot, eh? They never seem to get the credit they deserve.

Marvellous.

Munster are fairly good at selling jerseys alright, so you could learn a thing about marketing from them.

Ihas anyone got lasts years shirt sales figures?

LondonTiger wrote:

Neutralee wrote:
Thats all well and good, a rugby father will direct his rugby children to where they should be, but todays game is about whoring out for numbers, any support will do, not growing the game to fans but selling the clubs brand to anyone that will shell out. A huge amount of new fans will be children, and young adults that have had no exposure to rugby, and whos families arent traditional rugby fans.  

So anyone not from a traditional rugby background should be banned from the game?

Don't be ridiculous, I am an advocate for helping the game grow world wide, but when young British boys are favouring to buy this seasons Toulon shirts instead of their own club or national teams shirts its due to a number of reasons, and exposure for the big 4/5 clubs is getting bigger and bigger where as the smaller clubs are getting more and more squeezed out.

The point I am trying to make is this time next year if the elite academy boys at say Leicester academy all start turning up in the newest Toulon, Racing metro, CA, Saracens etc and then start to funnell to the big French clubs once showing promise how will you feel?

The French and English leagues are trying, and succeeding in limiting the Rabo nations competitiveness, if they do so and success is rare for all the rabo nations the best players will start moving to England and France, which we have seen already in Wales, and it to start in Ireland. Soon they could be in a position like the PI's where access is denied regularly and the international teams of these countries fall away too.

It is a sad state of facts where rugby is heading, to an elitist 2 league structure, and although things in the SH look rosy right now it's only a matter of time before commercialism and greed infiltrate there too.

I have no idea how you have managed to go from a few kids wearing rugby shirts from another nation to the disintegration of rugby as we know it.

I do, however, have it on good evidence that Toulon are planning to visit Welsh, Irish and Scottish city centres with a view to staging enforced flash mobs and mass brainwashing. Jonny will be taking the role of Tommy.

   We're Not Gonna Take It!

The Welsh players haven't left Wales because the French and English club action. It's down to action by the Regions and RRW. The Regions want more money, the WRU don't want to give them more money. The Regional owners stopped putting money in and put in a low salary cap that they could just about afford based on current attendances. This wasn't enough to keep the top Welsh players.

As well you know  

Edit: also the PI teams have more access to their players now than before. Partly because they're getting more games and also because increased funding means that they can afford to train together for longer.

Neutralee I think you need to nut up a bit and stop seeing things that aren't there.

 A rugby shirt in training is just that, it's not like they are turning up with it on a game day.

 You have put 2 and 2 together and gotten 10.

But Welsh players who have left have turned down lucrative contracts for huge ones, from what I have been told Jenkins turned down a good deal from Cardiff for the huge offer Toulon put on the table.

I think your trying to disassociate the structure of the new comp with the WRU RRW fight, which of course is partly a cause. The Englash and French clubs are now in a far better place to challenge for the comp if not purely down to their teams dominating numbers, which I still find incredible but thats another issue.

Lets take Sexton as an example, did he want to leave Leinster, who were euro champs, heavy weights, and the place he was so fond of? According to people who knew him not really, but that offer though....

The point i'm trying to make, is once again, and as always for the underdog and against elitism in rugby, The game in europe has just had a massive power shift, the FFR, and RFU have lost a battle they never thought they could, and the club game has become far more powerfull.

From the PRL and LNR's POV, the celtic nations have now been subdued, there is less of them allowed to compete, and they will have to compete elsewhere just to get those few crumbs in the first place.

The celtic nations cannot benefit from the new comp therefore the next battle to the domination of the club game is what? To get a foothold in those huge lucrative international games, so the decline of England and France as international powerhouses would be good for club rugby, so too would the 6N popularity falling off, because it means at some point down the line those big 6N lucrative games could be converted to big anglo French club games, with the profit in the club game instead of the international game.

This is business after all.

And there is a difference between teenagers wearing another clubs kit to a huge contract in France.

 I think you are blowing things way out of proportion from the OP.

Welly wrote:And there is a difference between teenagers wearing another clubs kit to a huge contract in France.

 I think you are blowing things way out of proportion from the OP.

They said that about Nazi behaviour, it was blown out of proportion until bang, there goes Poland.

Kids have always worn club tops from bargain bins, from when they were on holidays or when they went to see teams play etc, but this is different. This is kids wearing these shirts as formal tops to show off, to make a statement, these are very expensive new tops, they have been sought out, not found.

We are in the early stages of developing the haves and have nots in europe, football survived this type of thing because it was mainstream and there is a ton of money in it in every corner of the world, professional leagues in near every nation, rugby is in a much more precarious situation, it can suffer if the strongholds are not nurtured, and the areas where rugby is barely known aren't invested in, right now we're seeing the opposite, powerhouses of the game suffering, with only 2 nations dominating, and causing the tables to be tipped in their favour.

I worry for the game.

Yes because it all started when young Germans started turning up to rugby practice in there Nazi kit.

I think its a good thing that young kids are even into Rugby, nevermind who they support.

Neutralee wrote:They said that about Nazi behaviour, it was blown out of proportion until bang, there goes Poland.

And the thread has been Godwin'd

Welly wrote:Yes because it all started when young Germans started turning up to rugby practice in there Nazi kit.

Not to equate the Toulon shirt with the Swastika (never knew how to spell that word, go on and think about it, when have you ever written that word down?) but there was an article published post WW1 about the symbol rearing it's head within an organization spreading the word of opression, and talking uprising in Germany. This article was ridiculed widely as the Swastika was a symbol of fortune, and although been used by previous similar organisations, was deemed harmless...

12 years on Hitler had built an army strong enough to take Poland, and on their arm the wore the reworked Swastika, rebranded in Germany's old empire colours, and the articles writer was found dead, apparently never beleiving he had done enough to convince those who refused to listen to him.

Just saying, it never hurts to think about someones opinion, even if you don't agree at first, being dismissive helps noone.