A truly sad day for rugby...

First topic message reminder :

Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

I could forgive that, despite the shirt being quite generic and boring, I have seen Stade shirts for years, so just put it down to Toulons stature, and the fact they have plenty of British players.

Then a few days ago while in Bristol I saw a few kids (15/16) in the city centre, 2 of the 3 were wearing Toulon shirts, and the 3rd an England shirt. On the back of the first child was written Jones, I'm guessing his own surname) the 2nd child had Wilkinson on his, makes sense as Jonny is the English and Toulon hero, however the 3rd child with the England shirt on had the name Basteraud. Now it could've been his own surname, however he didn't look like a Basteraud, and was clearly English through his accent.

Again this got me to thinking, now that the PRL and LNR virtually own the new european comp, and the RFU and FFR are looking less likely to control rugby union, are we seeing the first signs of a champions league style culture, where there is the dominant league that attracts players from all over the world, and the lesser leagues that essentially feed into the dominant league?

Toulons grip and brand have been boosted by huge success, plowed with an unlimited cash source, are now exposed to larger audiences, on a higher scale than ever before, and are starting to attract the eye of British children. Are we seeing the start of the death of international rugby? Is rugby going down the Football route of the haves get the lot and the have nots feed off the scraps?

Is it a sad time when british children would rather where French or English club shirts, they have no affiliation with whatsoever, over their own local clubs, or national shirts? Is this what this new competition is aimed at doing? Creating a champions league type structure where fans will support the few teams who can afford to compete, and succeed, because of a lack of choice?

How would kiwi rugby fans feel if their children started walking down the street wearing Bulls shirts?
How would SA fans feel watching their kids wearing Waratahs kits?
How would Aussie fans feel if their kids started supporting the Crusaders?

I've been pretty critical about this new competition, pretty much because it takes rugby a step closer to football, and is a step closer to taking the power away from unions and ultimately the international game. We've already seen a direct result in French rugby, the poor form of the national team has to be effected by the clubs actions, and therefore the national team is losing support while the club game picks it up, will this begin to happen in England also, some could argue the success of the Aviva has coincided with the poor performing England team which has lacked competitiveness since the early 2000's.

I could possibly be going overboard, but as the rise in club shirt appearances soars in the UK, my opinion on the club game, power struggle and new comp just gets worse, maybe I should move with the times and select an English or French club to support so I have some sort of involvement in rugby?!

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Beef with tribalism? No not really. Healthy rivalry is fine. It's when tribalism goes too far that I have a problem. Extreme example I know but look at Israelis vs Palestines that's not a healthy rivalry. When tribalism leads to violence it's not good.

Tribalism celebrates divisions - it becomes us vs them.

We need to strive towards a common goal.

Thats a very extreme example.

Tribalism also celebrates looking out for your own which has nothing got to do with killing everyone else.

My example - if I was in a foreign country and saw someone driving an Irish reg car that was broken down, I'd probably stop to see if I could help them out.

Why just look after your own though? Why would it have to be an Irish reg car to make you stop? Why not try and aspire to treat everyone as you would want to be treated? Idealistic I know.

Tribalism puts up barriers - creates divisions whereas we should aspire to break them down.

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Beef with tribalism? No not really. Healthy rivalry is fine. It's when tribalism goes too far that I have a problem. Extreme example I know but look at Israelis vs Palestines that's not a healthy rivalry. When tribalism leads to violence it's not good.

Tribalism celebrates divisions - it becomes us vs them.

We need to strive towards a common goal.

Thats a very extreme example.

Tribalism also celebrates looking out for your own which has nothing got to do with killing everyone else.

My example - if I was in a foreign country and saw someone driving an Irish reg car that was broken down, I'd probably stop to see if I could help them out.

Why just look after your own though? Why would it have to be an Irish reg car to make you stop? Why not try and aspire to treat everyone as you would want to be treated? Idealistic I know.

Tribalism puts up barriers - creates divisions whereas we should aspire to break them down.

beshocked is right, tribalism now cages soccer fans in, and doesn't allow them to mix, is this where you want rugby to go?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Do you usually fight tooth and nail for clubs who havn't got a leg to stand on and you have no affiliation with?

Or are you generally too busy criticising your 'home' set up?

I feel it is such a widepsread misconception and lazy generalisation that people need to know the actual reality. Toulon are one of the biggest sporting success stories since the turn of the century. Most people think the owner of Toulon puts in about 5 million quid every year. The good thing to come out of this thread is that this and other misconceptions have been disproved.

Although the fact you still claim Toulon haven't "got a leg to stand on", somewhat disheartens me after all we've been through.

Do you think I'm French or something?

No I think your from Norwich, you are pretty pro PRL too so...

How could you call Toulon the biggest sporting success story since the turn of the century? I actually think your off your head!

I would say they aren't the biggest success story, in rugby, in France, this season, or last!!

Lets take Castre 2013 as an example, small budget, roughly half of Toulons, tiny playing staff in comparison, lesser fanbase, in every way inferior to Toulon - League champs beating ~Toulon in the final = success in my opinion!

Castre 2014, pillaged in the off season by bigger clubs, losing coaching team, star players, but reshuffled, and carried on. Scraped into 6th spot but made the final and narrowly lost to Toulon = success again in my opinion!

Any points i've made regarding Toulon and Boudjellal has been from fact, or direct quotes from himself, including worldwide comparisons of teams such as man city and Real madrid!

You dismiss anything you cannot answer as wrong, it worries me that you're probably not the only person to have an opinion that you refuse to change based on misconseptions and a need to see the rags to riches story!

I bet you were a huge Lance Armstrong advocate too   

Neutralee wrote:
Lets take Castre 2013 as an example, small budget, roughly half of Toulons, tiny playing staff in comparison, lesser fanbase, in every way inferior to Toulon - League champs beating ~Toulon in the final = success in my opinion!

2012/13 Season - Castre 15.6m vs Toulon 21.8 - big gap but more like 75%. Plus only one team bothered competing in Europe as well as T14

Neutralee wrote:
You dismiss anything you cannot answer as wrong, it worries me that you're probably not the only person to have an opinion that you refuse to change based on misconseptions and a need to see the rags to riches story!

Walk into the bathroom, look in the mirror and you may find another.

Neutralee wrote:
I bet you were a huge Lance Armstrong advocate too   

You really are perfecting the argumentum ad hominem.

Poor Castres - according to Sin e they are paupers.  Just a mere 17m budget compared to Toulon's 23m.

Castres who have struggled in the last few years in the group stages of the HC despite dwarfing most other sides in Europe's budgets.

Can't say they are an underdog.

To go back to the original point of the thread, I don't think there's a problem with kids wearing shirts of rugby sides that they would appear to have no direct affiliation with - personally I'd rather see a kid in England in a Toulon shirt, or a kid in Ireland with a Saracens shirt, or even a kid in France with an Ulster shirt than see them wearing a football shirt - if they've got an interest in rugby then that's all good to me.

Maybe in the future we might need to worry when there are kids in Leicester and Northampton wearing Saracens shirts but for now I think it's more of a fashion statement than anything else.

beshocked wrote:Poor Castres - according to Sin e they are paupers.  Just a mere 17m budget compared to Toulon's 23m.

Castres who have struggled in the last few years in the group stages of the HC despite dwarfing most other sides in Europe's budgets.

Can't say they are an underdog.

Agreed. They wont the French league last season (2013). Hardly underdogs.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poor Castres - according to Sin e they are paupers.  Just a mere 17m budget compared to Toulon's 23m.

Castres who have struggled in the last few years in the group stages of the HC despite dwarfing most other sides in Europe's budgets.

Can't say they are an underdog.

Agreed. They wont the French league last season (2013). Hardly underdogs.

You realise they were underdogs when they won it, and then were pillaged in the off season, predicted an 8th place finish and made the final!

RE the budget, the numbers are estimates, Castre reportedly won the double with 50% of Toulons budget.

'Few pundits gave les Tarnais much chance of upsetting Toulon, who were aiming to become the first club to do the French-European double since Toulouse in 1996. But, like they did a week ago with their surprise win over Clermont, Castres measured their effort to perfection, playing to their strengths by building on their impressive scrum and striking when the iron was hot.'

Neutralee wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poor Castres - according to Sin e they are paupers.  Just a mere 17m budget compared to Toulon's 23m.

Castres who have struggled in the last few years in the group stages of the HC despite dwarfing most other sides in Europe's budgets.

Can't say they are an underdog.

Agreed. They wont the French league last season (2013). Hardly underdogs.

You realise they were underdogs when they won it, and then were pillaged in the off season, predicted an 8th place finish and made the final!

RE the budget, the numbers are estimates, Castre reportedly won the double with 50% of Toulons budget.

'Few pundits gave les Tarnais much chance of upsetting Toulon, who were aiming to become the first club to do the French-European double since Toulouse in 1996. But, like they did a week ago with their surprise win over Clermont, Castres measured their effort to perfection, playing to their strengths by building on their impressive scrum and striking when the iron was hot.'

You must have been well chuffed then.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poor Castres - according to Sin e they are paupers.  Just a mere 17m budget compared to Toulon's 23m.

Castres who have struggled in the last few years in the group stages of the HC despite dwarfing most other sides in Europe's budgets.

Can't say they are an underdog.

Agreed. They wont the French league last season (2013). Hardly underdogs.

You realise they were underdogs when they won it, and then were pillaged in the off season, predicted an 8th place finish and made the final!

RE the budget, the numbers are estimates, Castre reportedly won the double with 50% of Toulons budget.

'Few pundits gave les Tarnais much chance of upsetting Toulon, who were aiming to become the first club to do the French-European double since Toulouse in 1996. But, like they did a week ago with their surprise win over Clermont, Castres measured their effort to perfection, playing to their strengths by building on their impressive scrum and striking when the iron was hot.'

You must have been well chuffed then.

As I said, I generally route for the underdog, I find people who don't a bit weird.

PS new thread isn't a shot at you, I just wanted to gauge peoples thoughts and see if I was in the minority like this thread, or the majority like the people I know in real life.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I feel it is such a widepsread misconception and lazy generalisation that people need to know the actual reality. Toulon are one of the biggest sporting success stories since the turn of the century. Most people think the owner of Toulon puts in about 5 million quid every year. The good thing to come out of this thread is that this and other misconceptions have been disproved.

What are you basing this success on? How little the billionaire owner puts in every year?

His sporting model is on very shaky ground as he is reliant on buying in players from other countries who are generally looking for a large payday before they retire. That means he will have a large turnover of playing staff every 2-3 years while most successful teams have a core group that stay with their club for a long period of time.

Listening and watching to that video you provided a link to, he seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about being poor as a child and a huge resentment towards others involved in rugby.

What was surprising was that he said that he sold the comics business because there was nothing left to achieve as he had done it all and he needed a new challenge. How long will it be before he tires of rugby as no one will be able to compete with Toulon.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I feel it is such a widepsread misconception and lazy generalisation that people need to know the actual reality. Toulon are one of the biggest sporting success stories since the turn of the century. Most people think the owner of Toulon puts in about 5 million quid every year. The good thing to come out of this thread is that this and other misconceptions have been disproved.

What are you basing this success on? How little the billionaire owner puts in every year?  

His sporting model is on very shaky ground as he is reliant on buying in players from other countries who are generally looking for a large payday before they retire. That means he will have a large turnover of playing staff every 2-3 years while most successful teams have a core group that stay with their club for a long period of time.

Listening and watching to that video you provided a link to, he seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about being poor as a child and a huge resentment towards others involved in rugby.

What was surprising was that he said that he sold the comics business because there was nothing left to achieve as he had done it all and he needed a new challenge. How long will it be before he tires of rugby as no one will be able to compete with Toulon.

Increase in:

-Turnover
-Major Trophies won

The turn of the century then?

Leicester 2 HCups (back-to-back), PRL titles every other year, new stadium. Huge fan base.

Leinster - 3 HCups, loads of Pro12s, top attendances in the league (and would have had low attendances in the early days).

Munster - 2 Cups, loads of Pro12s/Celtic leagues, 2 stadia (one 26K stadium), best selling jersey in the UK & Ireland for years (sold 80K in 2006).

The most successful club prior to 2000 (and is still very successful) is Toulouse.

Removed

LondonTiger wrote:

Neutralee wrote:
RE the budget, the numbers are estimates, Castre reportedly won the double with 50% of Toulons budget.

No they did not.

No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it does not become the truth. (Invoking Godwin again) not even your friend Himmler managed that.

It always amazes me how fervently the intellectually limited are to highlight how smart they are by shouting certain aspects they perceive as intellectual from the rooftops...

There is no winning or losing, you debate or you don't, how many times have you won an internet debate? Lets take the most overused cliche of all time, and ask how often you have come here to 'win' and how often you have 'won'?

LondonTiger wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Neutralee wrote:
RE the budget, the numbers are estimates, Castre reportedly won the double with 50% of Toulons budget.

No they did not.

No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it does not become the truth. (Invoking Godwin again) not even your friend Himmler managed that.

It always amazes me how fervently the intellectually limited are to highlight how smart they are by shouting certain aspects they perceive as intellectual from the rooftops...

There is no winning or losing, you debate or you don't, how many times have you won an internet debate? Lets take the most overused cliche of all time, and ask how often you have come here to 'win' and how often you have 'won'?

Again, have you ever commented without feeling the need to start with an insult? try it you might like it?

Please see above   

As your not contributing to the debate anymore I think i'll just not reply to you from now on, have a nice day.

Ok, I'll go. Casters didn't have 50% budget of Toulon. Agree or are you adhering to you previous unsupported comment?

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,9989_9331398,00.html

To start with...

http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/top-14-budgets-clubs-saison-2013-2014-2908131107.php

Previous year it was similar 75%

http://www.sportune.fr/article/top-14-rugby-tous-les-budgets-de-la-saison-2013-2014-94230/2

http://rugbywrapup.com/2014/05/top-14-final-preview-seems-brennus-toulons-lose-initially-least

Another I read.

Hmm, official audited figures versus reporters numbers.

Second guy seems to have mistaken Toulon with Toulouse.

If i'm wrong then so be it, If the budgets are closer, according to the recent reports I had not read fair play, I'll hold my hands up and say I had used a bad figure with bad info.

However the point was really still valid, Castres had no right to win or make the final of the T14 and were still in my view more succesfull for doing so, wether the budget was 50% or 75%, and thats not including the playing budget.

Castres did very well indeed, but remember they chose to sacrifice the HEC to achieve what they did in T14. Not denigrating their achievement as they did fantastically - just Toulon have done pretty well too.

LondonTiger wrote:Castres did very well indeed, but remember they chose to sacrifice the HEC to achieve what they did in T14. Not denigrating their achievement as they did fantastically - just Toulon have done pretty well too.

I disagree, that Toulon team is just crazy, there are enough quality players to play 2 teams in the league each week and probably be competitive with both! Now there is talk of 4 world class players signing, with Boudjellal joking about them playing in black... crazy just crazy!

Castres on the other hand signed their star player as a medical joker. It kind of puts things in perspective.

If we compared playing budgets, it would give a far greater sense of what Castre acheived in 2013, then when you consider their coaching team was poached in it's near entirity in the off season, plus a few key players to reach the final again is incredible.

What I do find odd is that French teams seem nonchalant about away games, they'll gladly throw fringe players to the wolves, and not just the likes of Castres who admittedly threw the HC for league position (scraping 6th), but the likes of Toulon who lost 9 away games as champs and lost to a poor Cardiff team away.

Neutralee wrote:Now there is talk of 4 world class players signing, with Boudjellal joking about them playing in black... crazy just crazy!

I agree, Neath will be furious.

I think he means Launceston

That's exhausted all the sides that play in black then.

England away kit? If only ghost was still around. He loved that black kit.

Yeah, he was a fan of that kit. He couldn't stop mentioning it.

If only he were still posting.

Is this the Black RWC one, not the worst idea in the world, not sure if it was the best idea to take to NZ.

I liked the black kit and I saw no problem with it being used in NZ, no different than them turning up in England with a white away shirt.

Well i'm sure if NZ turned up to 2015 with a white away kit and it fell apart, they probably would regret it too.

Wales have or had a black kit too didn't they?

Fell apart!

Maybe, but it was one hell of a party.  

Official Top14 budgets are out. First figure is this seasons followed by previous 2 seasons, Toulouse officially have a turnover of £10m more than Toulon.:


Comparatif entre les budgets prévisionnels 2014-2015, 2013-2014 et 2012-2013

Stade Toulousain 35,023 MEUR; 35,419 MEUR; 34,970 MEUR

Clermont 27,902 MEUR; 26,618 MEUR; 25,52 MEUR

Toulon 25,371 MEUR; 23,663 MEUR; 21,84 MEUR

Racing-Métro 25,365 MEUR; 22,452 MEUR; 21,74 MEUR

Stade Français 25,283 MEUR; 24,968 MEUR; 22,81 MEUR

Montpellier 22,541 MEUR; 19,971 MEUR; 17,51 MEUR

Lyon 21,028 MEUR; 19,941 MEUR (*)(**); 15,058 MEUR (*) (***)

Grenoble 20,769 MEUR; 18,644 MEUR; 14,90 MEUR

Castres 19,036 MEUR; 17,335 MEUR; 15,61 MEUR

Bordeaux-Bègles 15,857 MEUR; 12,862 MEUR; 11,93 MEUR (*) (***)

Bayonne 15,762 MEUR; 18,147 MEUR, 17,96 MEUR

La Rochelle 14,467 MEUR; 8,859 MEUR (*)(**); 8,813 MEUR

Oyonnax 14,277 MEUR; 9,172 MEUR; 6,846 MEUR (*)

Brive 13,626 MEUR; 11,092 MEUR; 11,42 M EUR (*)

(*) engagés en Pro D2

(**) budget prévisionnel 2013/2014 révisé au 30/10/2013 (source: DNACG)

(***) comptes réels 2012-2013 (source: DNACG)

Neutralee wrote:Well i'm sure if NZ turned up to 2015 with a white away kit and it fell apart, they probably would regret it too.

Wales have or had a black kit too didn't they?

They wear it in mourning at every WC.

Jimpy wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Well i'm sure if NZ turned up to 2015 with a white away kit and it fell apart, they probably would regret it too.

Wales have or had a black kit too didn't they?

They wear it in mourning at every WC.

What for?

Chunky

Those figures still only recognise the budget for each club, Toulon have facilities paid for and owned by the council don't they, Tolouse run a succesfull academy etc...

Tolouse is an established brand created over many seasons, Toulon are a squad full of mercinaries looking for paydays, and quick success.

IF you consider playing budgets Toulon are out in front (some question how they are able to do so) with squad bill and cost, the presidents of both Racing and Tolouse have spoken up about Toulons squad size and question marks around it.

Lets create another issue of why brand Toulon is bad for Rugby, not just the quick success throw millions at players, not the reaping of lower nations talent, not the aid in power grab to take the game away from international rugby, and not the contraversial fake owner who would sell his grand mother for a full page story.

Lets take what they give back to French rugby, their academy is non existant, they have one of the lowest ratios of FQ players in their squad, but worst of all they force the other French clubs who want to keep up to do similar, French talent is literally drying up! Not to mention the knock on causes to other leagues, the Aviva is in a place where if they raise their salary cap the next thing to change has to be the ratio of NEQ players, the Rabo cannot compete with finances, and we are literally seeing a pillage of Welsh players at present, soon to be followed by Irish.

What part of any of this is good for rugby union? What part of this helps grow the game worldwide?

Neutralee wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Well i'm sure if NZ turned up to 2015 with a white away kit and it fell apart, they probably would regret it too.

Wales have or had a black kit too didn't they?

They wear it in mourning at every WC.

What for?

Chunky

Those figures still only recognise the budget for each club, Toulon have facilities paid for and owned by the council don't they, Tolouse run a succesfull academy etc...

Tolouse is an established brand created over many seasons, Toulon are a squad full of mercinaries looking for paydays, and quick success.

IF you consider playing budgets Toulon are out in front (some question how they are able to do so) with squad bill and cost, the presidents of both Racing and Tolouse have spoken up about Toulons squad size and question marks around it.

Lets create another issue of why brand Toulon is bad for Rugby, not just the quick success throw millions at players, not the reaping of lower nations talent, not the aid in power grab to take the game away from international rugby, and not the contraversial fake owner who would sell his grand mother for a full page story.

Lets take what they give back to French rugby, their academy is non existant, they have one of the lowest ratios of FQ players in their squad, but worst of all they force the other French clubs who want to keep up to do similar, French talent is literally drying up! Not to mention the knock on causes to other leagues, the Aviva is in a place where if they raise their salary cap the next thing to change has to be the ratio of NEQ players, the Rabo cannot compete with finances, and we are literally seeing a pillage of Welsh players at present, soon to be followed by Irish.

What part of any of this is good for rugby union? What part of this helps grow the game worldwide?

It's actually taken Toulon several years to win anything major, and several players have been at the club for a long time.

Neutralee you could spin things on their head and say that Toulon are taking international players at the twilight of their careers when they are just looking for a pay day in Europe. They are not signing up many players in their prime - the ones who have must kiss their international careers goodbye if they are NZ or English.

If the French want to protect their international side - then they must act. Same with any union.

The Welsh players have been pillaged because they don't have the policy of picking players for Wales who play in Wales.

I would like the EQ rules to be tightened in the AP too.

Jimpy

First up they were promoted to T14 like 5 years ago, Umaga was there the year before wasn't he? Get a grip!

Beshocked

Thats my point, there is now a rift between the FFR and LNR, because of Toulons success strategy, the PRL and the RFU will soon butt heads post RWC 2015 about salary cap, NEQ player ratio etc.
The WRU and RRW are still reeling about the mess theyve created, the clubs are hamstrung and cannot compete with the megarich.

The policy of picking Welsh players based in Wales would be another contraversial move, but it would also be a move that a union has to counter a clubs actions.

There are rifts developing everywhere, all based on the assumption Toulon will keep doing what theyre doing, and everyone else will scramble to keep up.

If the French national team suffers any more the standard of the 6N drops, if that happens, the commercial viability of the tournament drops, spiralling into a situation where French T14 is the 'Premiership' of europe and everyone else are minor players. Is that what you want?

Neutralee wrote:Jimpy

First up they were promoted to T14 like 5 years ago, Umaga was there the year before wasn't he? Get a grip!

Beshocked

Thats my point, there is now a rift between the FFR and LNR, because of Toulons success strategy, the PRL and the RFU will soon butt heads post RWC 2015 about salary cap, NEQ player ratio etc.
The WRU and RRW are still reeling about the mess theyve created, the clubs are hamstrung and cannot compete with the megarich.

The policy of picking Welsh players based in Wales would be another contraversial move, but it would also be a move that a union has to counter a clubs actions.

There are rifts developing everywhere, all based on the assumption Toulon will keep doing what theyre doing, and everyone else will scramble to keep up.

If the French national team suffers any more the standard of the 6N drops, if that happens, the commercial viability of the tournament drops, spiralling into a situation where French T14 is the 'Premiership' of europe and everyone else are minor players. Is that what you want?

Are there really? Or is just in your head Ghostie?

Neutralee horse has bolted in Wales. Policy of picking Welsh players in Wales should have been done about 5-6 years ago which would have strengthened both club and country.

Very few English players are moving abroad because of the domestic policy. NZ have kept themselves intact too.

RFU and PRL - should agree to increase salary cap but also reduce NEQ ratio as compromise.

As for stopping Toulon - we need to beat them on the pitch to show them the error of their ways. I don't think they are unbeatable. Plus one of their most formidable allies in winning the HC twice (Alain Rolland) has retired.

Beating Toulon is tough enough - beating Toulon when Rolland is the ref....not sure it was possible in the HC.

Jimpy wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Jimpy

First up they were promoted to T14 like 5 years ago, Umaga was there the year before wasn't he? Get a grip!

Beshocked

Thats my point, there is now a rift between the FFR and LNR, because of Toulons success strategy, the PRL and the RFU will soon butt heads post RWC 2015 about salary cap, NEQ player ratio etc.
The WRU and RRW are still reeling about the mess theyve created, the clubs are hamstrung and cannot compete with the megarich.

The policy of picking Welsh players based in Wales would be another contraversial move, but it would also be a move that a union has to counter a clubs actions.

There are rifts developing everywhere, all based on the assumption Toulon will keep doing what theyre doing, and everyone else will scramble to keep up.

If the French national team suffers any more the standard of the 6N drops, if that happens, the commercial viability of the tournament drops, spiralling into a situation where French T14 is the 'Premiership' of europe and everyone else are minor players. Is that what you want?

Are there really? Or is just in your head Ghostie?

In France, Wales, and soon in England, the RFU and PRL aren't very compatible bed fellows, and once the 2015 RWC is done I think you'll find the next target on the PRL's to do list.

Not to mention the rift between the FFR and LNR, club presidents and Boudjellal etc...

We've also seen an unprediented number of young talented SA players influx to europe, are you claiming thats not an impact on their costs, and clubs trying to be competitive? It's quite interesting how such a number are changing allegience too.

The PRL and RFU are very compatable bedfellows at the moment. The RFU have given PRL general running control over the top evel of domestic rugby in England, and provide additional funding to get more from them than they have to. It works very well for all sides.

Neutralee wrote:

Lets create another issue of why brand Toulon is bad for Rugby, not just the quick success throw millions at players, not the reaping of lower nations talent, not the aid in power grab to take the game away from international rugby, and not the contraversial fake owner who would sell his grand mother for a full page story.

You really are a bitter little child. How can you make claims like that when you know next to nothing about the bloke? What exactly has he done that would give you that idea? From what I can see he's just put some (nowhere near as much as you are suggesting) money into a club that he absolutely loves. Go ask anyone from the community what he's done for the area and then see how you feel about him.

Also I know it's a bit petty - and definitely off-topic - but could you please just have a look at this or something similar?

Maybe the guy just earned a lot of money, likes rugby and wants his club to do well?

Whats wrong with that?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Lets create another issue of why brand Toulon is bad for Rugby, not just the quick success throw millions at players, not the reaping of lower nations talent, not the aid in power grab to take the game away from international rugby, and not the contraversial fake owner who would sell his grand mother for a full page story.

You really are a bitter little child. How can you make claims like that when you know next to nothing about the bloke? What exactly has he done that would give you that idea? From what I can see he's just put some (nowhere near as much as you are suggesting) money into a club that he absolutely loves. Go ask anyone from the community what he's done for the area and then see how you feel about him.

Also I know it's a bit petty - and definitely off-topic - but could you please just have a look at this or something similar?

Go and read optinions from other club presidents, former employee's, government officials, he's been accused of being fake to the media, made slanderous remarks about club and league officials, referee's, been taken to court by ex employee's, and players, has made remarks about sacking members of staff 5 minutes after a loss, and thats not including the rumours of bully tactics, hissy fits and financial misdoings...

Theres only so much you can read, watch, and listen to without developing an opinion on the guy.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I think you're going over the top. It's only a rugby shirt.

Indeed and I was into Barcelona FC and Leeds Utd big time as a kid, but as all kids do I changed my mind more times than a woman has handbags.

They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.