A truly sad day for rugby...

First topic message reminder :

Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

I could forgive that, despite the shirt being quite generic and boring, I have seen Stade shirts for years, so just put it down to Toulons stature, and the fact they have plenty of British players.

Then a few days ago while in Bristol I saw a few kids (15/16) in the city centre, 2 of the 3 were wearing Toulon shirts, and the 3rd an England shirt. On the back of the first child was written Jones, I'm guessing his own surname) the 2nd child had Wilkinson on his, makes sense as Jonny is the English and Toulon hero, however the 3rd child with the England shirt on had the name Basteraud. Now it could've been his own surname, however he didn't look like a Basteraud, and was clearly English through his accent.

Again this got me to thinking, now that the PRL and LNR virtually own the new european comp, and the RFU and FFR are looking less likely to control rugby union, are we seeing the first signs of a champions league style culture, where there is the dominant league that attracts players from all over the world, and the lesser leagues that essentially feed into the dominant league?

Toulons grip and brand have been boosted by huge success, plowed with an unlimited cash source, are now exposed to larger audiences, on a higher scale than ever before, and are starting to attract the eye of British children. Are we seeing the start of the death of international rugby? Is rugby going down the Football route of the haves get the lot and the have nots feed off the scraps?

Is it a sad time when british children would rather where French or English club shirts, they have no affiliation with whatsoever, over their own local clubs, or national shirts? Is this what this new competition is aimed at doing? Creating a champions league type structure where fans will support the few teams who can afford to compete, and succeed, because of a lack of choice?

How would kiwi rugby fans feel if their children started walking down the street wearing Bulls shirts?
How would SA fans feel watching their kids wearing Waratahs kits?
How would Aussie fans feel if their kids started supporting the Crusaders?

I've been pretty critical about this new competition, pretty much because it takes rugby a step closer to football, and is a step closer to taking the power away from unions and ultimately the international game. We've already seen a direct result in French rugby, the poor form of the national team has to be effected by the clubs actions, and therefore the national team is losing support while the club game picks it up, will this begin to happen in England also, some could argue the success of the Aviva has coincided with the poor performing England team which has lacked competitiveness since the early 2000's.

I could possibly be going overboard, but as the rise in club shirt appearances soars in the UK, my opinion on the club game, power struggle and new comp just gets worse, maybe I should move with the times and select an English or French club to support so I have some sort of involvement in rugby?!

Never purchased any Cardiff "bloos" merch either coz it's a very silly brand.

I've got a Mogliano shirt and a Rovigo scarf. Jeez, have I been suckered by those big spending Italian league clubs.

timhen wrote:They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.

2 points:

Have you ever been able to force a 16yr old to wear what they don't want to? In 2's and 3's?

Little Billy was 6 foot tall!

I love these little Walter Mitty scenarios used to further an agenda.

I think the OP sometimes thinks that they actually happened.

Brilliant

Cyril wrote:I love these little Walter Mitty scenarios used to further an agenda.

I think the OP sometimes thinks that they actually happened.

Brilliant

9th time = Please keep it to rugby!

Neutralee wrote:

Cyril wrote:I love these little Walter Mitty scenarios used to further an agenda.

I think the OP sometimes thinks that they actually happened.

Brilliant

9th time = Please keep it to rugby!

Stop making up little stories then!

 

You still won't say where you're from originally.

Are you embarrassed about your nationality, Neutralee?

Cyril wrote:You still won't say where you're from originally.

Are you embarrassed about your nationality, Neutralee?

From here on in you'll get a response on merit only...

Where are you from this time?Pretty relevant question.

Neutralee wrote:

timhen wrote:They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.

2 points:

Have you ever been able to force a 16yr old to wear what they don't want to? In 2's and 3's?

Little Billy was 6 foot tall!

I invite you to reread the beginning of that first sentence.

I thought the concept of my post was pretty clear, but in case others have difficulty with it, here's a slightly more basic restatement.  Not all people have a preferred club (particularly those who are new to the game), many are content to wear a variety of different club shirts, children (of the full range of ages and heights) are far more likely to be given shirts than buy them themselves, Toulon are the most succesful team in Europe at the moment with some of the most famous players so their shirts are amongst the most frequently bought as gifts (particularly by those with only a cursory knowledge of rugby who want to bestow 'the best') as well as the best stocked in stores.

timhen wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

timhen wrote:They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.

2 points:

Have you ever been able to force a 16yr old to wear what they don't want to? In 2's and 3's?

Little Billy was 6 foot tall!

I invite you to reread the beginning of that first sentence.

I thought the concept of my post was pretty clear, but in case others have difficulty with it, here's a slightly more basic restatement.  Not all people have a preferred club (particularly those who are new to the game), many are content to wear a variety of different club shirts, children (of the full range of ages and heights) are far more likely to be given shirts than buy them themselves, Toulon are the most succesful team in Europe at the moment with some of the most famous players so their shirts are amongst the most frequently bought as gifts (particularly by those with only a cursory knowledge of rugby who want to bestow 'the best') as well as the best stocked in stores.

Your still wrong, no 16 yr old wears something bought for them that they didn't ask for, and if they do, by some miracle, 2 of them don't wear them same day while a 3rd who had a French name put on an England shirt by his grandma who obviously went out and bought him an England shirt with her favourite players name on the back.

I have had to suffer through 3 16 yr olds at one time or another and even if you buy them, what they ask for, but in a slightly different colour/make/age they won't touch it with a barge pole. At 16 most parents are much happier either giving the children the cash or just picking up what they want, any parent willing to risk spending £60 on a shirt that they may like is deluded.

Neutralee wrote:

timhen wrote:They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.

2 points:

Have you ever been able to force a 16yr old to wear what they don't want to? In 2's and 3's?

Little Billy was 6 foot tall!

Weren't there two of the   kids (15/16)  wearing Toulon shirts in Bristol, were they both 16 and 6ft, was the other one the 15yo?  Typical for Toulon to get the older, bigger lads!

And what happened to the 14yo in Edinburgh? Scotland always gets glossed over in rugby matters, and it's not even a Lions year!

That's the things with imaginings, they're fluid, they conveniently change or get forgotten according to what you want to say.

Neutralee wrote:Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

Was this an official Scotland training camp?

It would be the others trying to impress in the England, Welsh and Kiwi jerseys that would give me greater pause.

gelodge wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

Was this an official Scotland training camp?

It would be the others trying to impress in the England, Welsh and Kiwi jerseys that would give me greater pause.

He's saving that line of trolling for later in the season.  He can't use all his material at once.


Why do you guys reply to these posters.  You know they're hunting for people to argue with with clear nonsense.  Don't feed them, you're giving them exactly what they want.

Neutralee wrote:

timhen wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

timhen wrote:They were clearly content to wear them, but it's almost certain the kids didn't pay for the shirts themselves and probable that they didn't even ask for them.

A family member or family friend knows that little Billy likes rugby, it's his birthday/Christmas, they don't know little Billy's club (maybe he doesn't even have one yet*) and probably don't know much about rugby themselves, though if they've gleemed anything from scanning past headlines it's that Toulon are b2b european champions and that nice Wilkinson chap plays for them.  What's available at a decent price in the big sports store solves the rest of the equation.

*not coming from a rugby family I played rugby for 8-10 years (up to county level) before I became interested in watching club rugby or almost any sport for that matter, there was no place for it between school, other sports and further interests.

2 points:

Have you ever been able to force a 16yr old to wear what they don't want to? In 2's and 3's?

Little Billy was 6 foot tall!

I invite you to reread the beginning of that first sentence.

I thought the concept of my post was pretty clear, but in case others have difficulty with it, here's a slightly more basic restatement.  Not all people have a preferred club (particularly those who are new to the game), many are content to wear a variety of different club shirts, children (of the full range of ages and heights) are far more likely to be given shirts than buy them themselves, Toulon are the most succesful team in Europe at the moment with some of the most famous players so their shirts are amongst the most frequently bought as gifts (particularly by those with only a cursory knowledge of rugby who want to bestow 'the best') as well as the best stocked in stores.

Your still wrong, no 16 yr old wears something bought for them that they didn't ask for, and if they do, by some miracle, 2 of them don't wear them same day while a 3rd who had a French name put on an England shirt by his grandma who obviously went out and bought him an England shirt with her favourite players name on the back.

I have had to suffer through 3 16 yr olds at one time or another and even if you buy them, what they ask for, but in a slightly different colour/make/age they won't touch it with a barge pole. At 16 most parents are much happier either giving the children the cash or just picking up what they want, any parent willing to risk spending £60 on a shirt that they may like is deluded.

OK, I get it, you're just on the wum.

This is exactly the sort of reason why I come on here so infrequently these days.  More fool me for testing the water again and trusting posters might be genuine.

I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

Neutralee wrote:I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

Leopards don't change thgeir spots, or should that be ghosts don't change their sheets...

Neutralee wrote:I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

We're still waiting to hear where you're from (this time). It might help to explain your 'neutral' views. Any genuine poster would just say.

Not holding my breath on that one.

It's amazing how many posters seem to think you're a certain 'character' from the recent past. Why might that be?

Neutralee wrote:I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

People can call your opinions whatever they like. That's their opinion. Also, I make it a rule not to trust anyone who says, repeatedly, "I'm a neutral" or "from a neutral point of view" or any variation of that.

Then there is also the chance that, even if you aren't a tedious returned poster, [shock horror] you might be wrong.

He's from Canada this time.

HammerofThunor wrote:He's from Canada this time.

Interesting. I would have expected more support for them on WWC thread. Still, he's got to remain totally 'neutral' I guess.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Neutralee wrote:I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

People can call your opinions whatever they like. That's their opinion. Also, I make it a rule not to trust anyone who says, repeatedly, "I'm a neutral" or "from a neutral point of view" or any variation of that.

Then there is also the chance that, even if you aren't a tedious returned poster, [shock horror] you might be wrong.

Thats exactly my point, I am probably wrong in plenty of areas, please lets debate why that is so, on an internet forum thats why we are here surely?

Cyril

People thinking I am a poster may have something to do with your trolling every post I make posting ghost pictures and calling me a ghost, who in their right mind would not just write off an opinion they dislike as web trollery! If you would just debate the rugby there wouldn't be this 'who are you' culture.
And the reason I won't give you any details is that you are soo eager to know who I am and where i'm from, theres something a little unhinged about the fascination from my very first post!

Please by all means call me the Ghost, but debate also, I don't care what you call me, as long as i'm not wasting time repeating the same thing over and over.

It's a shame because there is a lot of knowledge on this forum, sadly it isn't from the loudest.

What to debate? For a start this all started with something that you've claimed with nothing to back it up. Other people don't seem to have seen it much. From that people you've detailed an elaborate fantasy of what might happen. How can someone debate what you've made up?

If everyone in England starts supporting French teams then money will go out of the English game and it may go back to being amateur. The quality would drop at both domestic and national level as they don't have time to train...I don't really care. It's a game, which will be played at whatever level the country decides it's ready to support it at. If that's not professional then so be it.

How's that for debate?

Neutralee wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Neutralee wrote:I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

People can call your opinions whatever they like. That's their opinion. Also, I make it a rule not to trust anyone who says, repeatedly, "I'm a neutral" or "from a neutral point of view" or any variation of that.

Then there is also the chance that, even if you aren't a tedious returned poster, [shock horror] you might be wrong.

Thats exactly my point, I am probably wrong in plenty of areas, please lets debate why that is so, on an internet forum thats why we are here surely?

Cyril

People thinking I am a poster may have something to do with your trolling every post I make posting ghost pictures and calling me a ghost, who in their right mind would not just write off an opinion they dislike as web trollery! If you would just debate the rugby there wouldn't be this 'who are you' culture.
And the reason I won't give you any details is that you are soo eager to know who I am and where i'm from, theres something a little unhinged about the fascination from my very first post!

Please by all means call me the Ghost, but debate also, I don't care what you call me, as long as i'm not wasting time repeating the same thing over and over.

It's a shame because there is a lot of knowledge on this forum, sadly it isn't from the loudest.

Put your cards on the table. People dont think youre GE cos of Cyril but because of your style. Just say it move on and try not to wum as much this time.

Neutralee wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Neutralee wrote:I find this attitude amazing,

I am not a Brit, I have no affiliation to any top tier nation (well except through heritage) and have no agenda whatsoever, so to single my POV out as a wum or troll is hilarious.

The fact that I am highlighting a trend of British kids supporting the big spending Frnch clubs proudly, as opposed to their own clubs should't be taken as lightly as you all are.

We all know there is a difference between wearing the odd random shirt to training, and wearing one proudly as a teenager on a day out with friends, We know there is a difference between picking up a bargain bin shirt and actively seeking out and paying £60+ for one, we know 16 yr olds do not wear something they don't think will be seen as smart or cool, and we all know 3 kids do not wear the same clothes accidentally (allbeit the 1 with the England 'Basteraud' top).

Someone mentioned on the other thread a global salary cap, I think thaats a superb idea, it stops clubs like Toulon becoming a household name through buying so many household names.

Now disagree with me all you like, but you can't call my opinions wum or troll, that is the easy option of not having the will to fight your case

People can call your opinions whatever they like. That's their opinion. Also, I make it a rule not to trust anyone who says, repeatedly, "I'm a neutral" or "from a neutral point of view" or any variation of that.

Then there is also the chance that, even if you aren't a tedious returned poster, [shock horror] you might be wrong.

Thats exactly my point, I am probably wrong in plenty of areas, please lets debate why that is so, on an internet forum thats why we are here surely?

Cyril

People thinking I am a poster may have something to do with your trolling every post I make posting ghost pictures and calling me a ghost, who in their right mind would not just write off an opinion they dislike as web trollery! If you would just debate the rugby there wouldn't be this 'who are you' culture.
And the reason I won't give you any details is that you are soo eager to know who I am and where i'm from, theres something a little unhinged about the fascination from my very first post!

Please by all means call me the Ghost, but debate also, I don't care what you call me, as long as i'm not wasting time repeating the same thing over and over.

It's a shame because there is a lot of knowledge on this forum, sadly it isn't from the loudest.

Congratualtions GreyGhost, you've just redefined 'sanctimonious' and 'hypocrite'.

 

It really is like banging your head against a brick wall...