Miguel Cotto - Disgusting the flak he is getting !!

First topic message reminder :

Let's look at the facts....

1. Cotto beats the number 1 middleweight in the World............Not his fault Martinez was past it !!.....Did the job and picked up an excellent win against a bigger opponent....

2. All champions are afforded a voluntary defence....Generally against an easy target...........Ali-Coopman.........Curry-Larocca...Honey-Bumphus/Hatcher/Vaca..Holmes - Ocasio.....Hagler-Hamsho/Obel twice...........He isn't breaking with convention...

3. Alvarez is the number 2 at 154...........and his credentials are better than john Mugabi who no one minded taking on Hagler.......Even though he came a whisker to being stopped by journeyman James hard rock green...

Posters having a pop at Cotto are either so far up GGG's backside they can't think straight or have no idea of Boxing history..

Sure we'd all like to see GGG v Cotto..............But I think Alvarez v Cotto is a great fight...........50/50 for me...

Cotto is doing nothing wrong..............He's beaten the number 1 middle.....Let him do what every other champion does and make a voluntary..

Cotto deserves more respect..

Ducking is a much used word in boxing hammy.  Cotto wants a warm up for a few quid against a guy with a following before a big fight with Alvarez. What would you do if you were him. If golovkin cleans up the other belts and the world is screaming for Alvarez or cotto v ggg with millions on the table and its clear one party doesn't want it then maybe its a duck then. But is it now? If it is, there are a host of big name duckers.

If ggg wants to move up and fight froch when froch is short of alternatives but froch makes noises that ggg is too dangerous, is that more or less of a duck than cotto risking a huge fight?

personally, I just  want to see great fights and I think froch golovkin would be a cracker.

What is a warm up fight anyway? Cotto's coming off and easy win but if he doesn't warm up fight someone unworthy of a shot then he'll pull a muscle against Alvarez?

Maybe the terrible PPV numbers would improve if the fights on PPV were between the best in the division.

Exchange 'warm up' for 'keep busy'  . Makes all the difference

Falling into the trap of taking Froch's comments literally, he was being sarcastic Milky, suggesting that he holds no fear to the 168lbers.

I do agree in principle that boxing is a money making exercise first and foremost, a lot of the time the big money fights are the most dangerous so it's get overlooked but in Cotto's position i'd do exactly the same thing. Alvarez or Golovkin is a no brainer, arguably less risk but far more reward and Cotto will never struggle to make money whether he loses anyway.

In Froch's position it's exactly the same, Chavez is a far easier fight one in which he'll be a fairly heavy favourite and will get paid 3/4 times the amount than he would fighting Golovkin.

The difference is though that Golovkin is Cotto's number one challenger which he isn't for Froch at this time, most dangerous outside of Ward maybe but a direct challenger he is not.

I'd like to see how GGG fares against someone who can take his shot and come on later on...

Froch would tell us an awful lot about our "Invincible" friend who hasn't beaten anybody...

Pity he doesn't fancy it

Agree with the sentiment that Cotto shouldn't receive so much flak for him staying away from Golovkin for at least the next fight. Don't think he beats a decent middleweight though, on two working legs.

I'm sure Alvarez said before the Angulo fight that he'd be at light middle for a while or made it sound like a trip to middle wouldn't be happening any time soon. Obviously the money from a cotto matchup would change things. Seems that people think its set in stone but Mayweather could jump in, the clamour for a golovkin fight may become too big to turn away from/duck or, as I believe, he'll lose his warm up for any of the above.

catchweight wrote:Pity he doesn't fancy it

You don't like Froch.....Ward, Bute, Dirrell, Groves twice, Taylor..... tells me a middleweight wouldn't over concern him..

I could take or leave Carl Froch but he's made a career out of being the guy who'll fight anyone. If there was a huge calling for the GGG fight, I'm sure he'd take it.

For most of his career he wasn't in a position to be selective about his opponents. He is now. And he isn't interested in Golovkin. As he said himself - too dangerous. He wants an easier fight with Chavez that he can sign off with a win on.

I think it's half and half with Froch.

I don't think he's that keen on a fight with Golovkin in the sense that he wouldn't seek it voluntarily - he's said as much this week again in Boxing News. His line is that he and Hearn are happy to leave him be if Golovkin does the same and that he's not going to hide that. He also acknowledged that Golovkin is an extremely risky and dangerous fight, so it'd have to be for mega, mega money. A merely good purse isn't enough.

That said, it's hard to call that a duck, especially if Golovkin's main priority over the next year or so remains trying to corner Cotto (or Alvarez if he beats him) in to defending against him at 160. Sure, Golovkin has said he wants to fight Froch - but he's said he wants to fight everyone at Middle and Super-Middle, basically issuing an open invitation. But he keeps knocking over the best of the rest at 160, so for the time being it's the guys in that division who have the spotlight on them and who have to face up to the accusations of outright avoidance.

If Golovkin sets his focus primarily on Froch and makes it clear that that's his intention, it becomes a different story. Especially if he dusts off a ranked Super-Middleweight to show that he's serious.

History tells us that if there's enough public demand and there's a huge challenge ahead, Froch will take it on - but I think things are slightly different now. For a long time, Froch was scrapping for that long overdue all-round adulation and big profile, and he felt that he hadn't done enough to fulfil his talent, so consistently putting himself through the hardest route possible was the only option that made sense to him (and God bless him for that, because even in that situation there are plenty of fighters who don't share his thinking).

But after the Bute win he said that he finally felt he was in a place where he could be satisfied with his career and that he didn't really have to prove his ability or stones to anyone anymore, and that anything else he achieved in his career after that point would be just a bonus. The Kessler and Groves rematches have given him another couple of distinguishing moments on top of that, and so I really feel he'll not entertain any other opponents outside of Chavez or Degale now, even if the clamour for Froch-Golovkin grows. I'd love to see it, but if Froch feels like he no longer has to prove anything and thinks he deserves one last hurrah where he calls the shots, has all the adulation going in and can pick whoever fits best in all categories, then fair enough because he's earned it.

I don't think it'll reach that pitch though, and both Golovkin and Froch will be able to go about their business without ever being directly accused of ducking the other. Seems as if Golovkin is going to see if Cotto has more interest in him than Martinez did - and by the time we found out, Froch will probably have already signed (or had) his final fight.

You haven't seen the actual interview where's he questioned about GGG have you catchy just read the comments which in text have no context.

I have seen the interview and no he wasn't joking.

I've heard Wlad's refusing to fight GGG........

Captain America better bring his shield... is all I can say !!!!!

I'm in the same camp as Chris on it. Froch's proved his nads on countless occasions but he was pretty quick to distance himself from stevenson when he flattened bellew and then said he'd go back to super middle for froch.

Our iron chinned super warrior isn't falling over himself to fight the big bangers!

Seriously, I'm sure he'd fight them if the money was right, but its risk reward for all these guys... Even old school trench diggers like froch

Its only in the very tail end of Frochs career that he was in a position where he could pick and choose opponents. At this stage of his career hes made it abundantly clear what he wants and doesn't want. He isn't in the market to take a tough fight like Golovkin now. He wasn't even keen on a second Groves fight. He wants his Chavez fight. Hes pretty much said its the only fight hes interested in. Hes not out there seeking the hardest opponent available.

Golovkin is the real deal and can beat every fighter from 175lbs and below.

It's a shame that politics, money and pure ducking will prevent us from ever confirming these words.

depen.balboa wrote:Golovkin is the real deal and can beat every fighter from 175lbs and below.

It's a shame that politics, money and pure ducking will prevent us from ever confirming these words.

Golovkin is very probably the best middleweight in the world right now. I would make him a big, big underdog against Ward, Kovalev and Stevenson though.

Cotto is one of the few fighters around who's constantly sought out top opposition and tough challenges throughout his career. He is the legitimate middleweight boss and I don't think anyone would begrudge him an easy first defence.

There have been various rumours that have surfaced, however, indicating that he isn't planning on defending at 160 anytime soon. Roach, for instance, has suggested that if they were to fight GGG, they'd make him come down to 156. It's tough to criticise someone like Cotto but if he isn't planning on fighting at 160, it makes a mockery of his linear champ status.

I'd agree with that..

That's pretty much how I see it too, Haz.

His last two fights have been blow outs. Hes mega rich. He doesn't need an easy fight. The stage looks to be set for more nonsense where the top guy will be avoided and Cotto will either never actually fight a top middleweight or only fight middleweights at catchweights.

hazharrison wrote:Cotto is one of the few fighters around who's constantly sought out top opposition and tough challenges throughout his career. He is the legitimate middleweight boss and I don't think anyone would begrudge him an easy first defence.

There have been various rumours that have surfaced, however, indicating that he isn't planning on defending at 160 anytime soon. Roach, for instance, has suggested that if they were to fight GGG, they'd make him come down to 156. It's tough to criticise someone like Cotto but if he isn't planning on fighting at 160, it makes a mockery of his linear champ status.

There's easy...and there is a p*s* take which is what anyone of Lee's caliber is. There's a few things that grate with me about this whole affair;

Everyday we see people slate the likes of Quigg...or Quillin...or say Sturm when he held title.. for making easy defences and fighting tomato cans. Yet the cream of the crop are always afforded by a fair few the 'let's not begrudge him an easy defence' line. WHY!? Because they are a big name...because they have had one or two big fights?

I find it far less excusable for the likes of Pacman, Mayweather, Cotto or anyone else at the upper echelons of the sport to be taking soft defences than people who have picked up a paper belt. The fact is that those paper champs etc often know they are a tier below world class and therefore are happy to make money before being exposed. The same cannot be said of the P4P fighters....they are the ones who masquerading themselves as the very best, rank themselves amongst the best to ever lace up a pair of gloves etc....therefore they should be setting out to prove that.

Fair enough if they are having four or five tough fights a year; but there not. Most fight once or twice at most every 12 months...a tune up fight/patsy defence fight is far from required. Before you say anything Truss; I don't excuse those of yesteryear doing the same thing either...this thought applies to all...including Frazier or Ali or Leonard...however one can find a little more leniency when those people and others were fighting on a far more frequent basis and the old lot were fighting 15 rounders or even more with gloves far more destructive...against people truly there own size and with far less health and safety measurements!

Another thing which really annoys me about all of this, and Chris touched on it, is the fact that we all know that this 'tune up' fight is not something which is leading to a fight at middleweight anyway. So we have a guy masquerading as a middleweight...having beat the middleweight...but just not at middleweight...and only after said middleweight had major surgery on his knees.

In the 12 months following his loss to Trout did anyone hear Cotto calling out Martinez?! Did anyone hear him calling out any Middleweight at all? No...he returned 10 months later to beat.....Delvin Rodriguez!! Then targeted a Martinez who everyone knew was potentially shot, despite people not wanting to admit it at the time.

Say he now goes on to fight Lee in December....come next Summer we all know we are heading for a Cotto v Alvarez fight; Is it a good fight? Yes....Will it Sell? Yes ....Does it need the Middleweight title on the line...NO!! And that's the kicker....it's going to be sold as a fight to decide the best middleweight on the planet at a weight which isn't 160 between two guys who have never fought at 160...

All the while there is a genuine 160lb fighter trying and waiting to prove he is the best in his division...that's the focal point of this whole thing for me. It's not that a Cotto v Alvarez fight isn't decent...it's just that plenty are championing it despite the background to it being the epitome of what's wrong with boxing these days.

Have the Cotto v Canelo fight by all means...but don't pretend it's a middleweight fight....don't sanction it as such and for the combatants of the contest don't go round after winning declaring yourself a 4 or 2 weight world champion because you are not...not even close because you decided to fight at catchweight for money instead of fighting the genuine & legitimate 1st/2nd best guy in the division to prove yourself a champion.

As for those stating GGG should move up if he wants to prove his greatness and add to his legacy; what difference does moving up make? Plenty say the fans already know he is the best middleweight...but will they say he is the best Super Middleweight should he go up to that division and not get fights with Froch or Ward? Of course they won't....yet missing out on fights with those two is just as likely a scenario as he is facing at 160. They are the two names in the division up....Froch & Hearn have already said they aren't interested, whether it be scared or doesn't sell...people have their own opinion, but the fact is that it isn't happening for at least 12 months and Ward is a no go both on a legal front and in terms of the pot size..

GGG people have said they are the ones who bring most to the table whilst Ward's obviously disagree. Now given Ward's inactivity, lack of fan base, extremely poor viewing figures and style...you'd have to say that apart from the belts he brings very little to the table. He seems lack a very difficult character to deal with, one only needs to read about what Dawson had to take to get a fight with him.

People have said that GGG doesn't get the big fight's as he brings little to the table high risk/low reward, but then the exact same applies to Ward. GGG isn't going to make much fighting him, would have to take the smaller end of the purse and go up in weight and should he lose then where does he go?! A win may not give him that much either as people would be quick to claim that Ward has had ongoing problems outside the ring and has been inactive....easy to say 'but he would have beaten the man at Super Middle' but chances are the fight would be catchweight and people would roll out excuses to devalue the win!

I'll say it again.............We'd all love Cotto to fight GGG next...But he's just beat the Man at middleweight and he's entitled to a VOLUNTARY !!

Duran's first defence was Ishimatsu who had a 25-10-5 record !!!!!!

Leonard's was Dave Boy Green who wasn't that good !!!!

Hearns was Randy Shields.....38-6-1..............

He's not doing anything wrong.........................So don't pick on him......Learn your history..

If your going to quote history you may as well make it relevant and factually correct. Those guys were kids when they first won their titles. Cotto is a mega rich veteran.

He has just beaten the man....but not at middleweight...the fight wasn't at middleweight! What's difficult to understand about that...aren't you one of the people who crap all over the idea of Manny being an 8 division World Champion due to catchweight...

Also I am pretty sure I said that my point wasn't just against Cotto but all fighters past or present who have done this whole 'easy defence' routine...all I suggested was that the reason older fighters get the leniency they do is due to the fact they fought far more often, in longer fights, and with far fewer precautions than modern day fighters do now..read the post properly!!

owen10ozzy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Cotto is one of the few fighters around who's constantly sought out top opposition and tough challenges throughout his career. He is the legitimate middleweight boss and I don't think anyone would begrudge him an easy first defence.

There have been various rumours that have surfaced, however, indicating that he isn't planning on defending at 160 anytime soon. Roach, for instance, has suggested that if they were to fight GGG, they'd make him come down to 156. It's tough to criticise someone like Cotto but if he isn't planning on fighting at 160, it makes a mockery of his linear champ status.

There's easy...and there is a p*s* take which is what anyone of Lee's caliber is. There's a few things that grate with me about this whole affair;

Everyday we see people slate the likes of Quigg...or Quillin...or say Sturm when he held title.. for making easy defences and fighting tomato cans. Yet the cream of the crop are always afforded by a fair few the 'let's not begrudge him an easy defence' line. WHY!? Because they are a big name...because they have had one or two big fights?

I find it far less excusable for the likes of Pacman, Mayweather, Cotto or anyone else at the upper echelons of the sport to be taking soft defences than people who have picked up a paper belt. The fact is that those paper champs etc often know they are a tier below world class and therefore are happy to make money before being exposed. The same cannot be said of the P4P fighters....they are the ones who masquerading themselves as the very best, rank themselves amongst the best to ever lace up a pair of gloves etc....therefore they should be setting out to prove that.

Fair enough if they are having four or five tough fights a year; but there not. Most fight once or twice at most every 12 months...a tune up fight/patsy defence fight is far from required. Before you say anything Truss; I don't excuse those of yesteryear doing the same thing either...this thought applies to all...including Frazier or Ali or Leonard...however one can find a little more leniency when those people and others were fighting on a far more frequent basis and the old lot were fighting 15 rounders or even more with gloves far more destructive...against people truly there own size and with far less health and safety measurements!

Another thing which really annoys me about all of this, and Chris touched on it, is the fact that we all know that this 'tune up' fight is not something which is leading to a fight at middleweight anyway. So we have a guy masquerading as a middleweight...having beat the middleweight...but just not at middleweight...and only after said middleweight had major surgery on his knees.

In the 12 months following his loss to Trout did anyone hear Cotto calling out Martinez?! Did anyone hear him calling out any Middleweight at all? No...he returned 10 months later to beat.....Delvin Rodriguez!! Then targeted a Martinez who everyone knew was potentially shot, despite people not wanting to admit it at the time.

Say he now goes on to fight Lee in December....come next Summer we all know we are heading for a Cotto v Alvarez fight; Is it a good fight? Yes....Will it Sell? Yes ....Does it need the Middleweight title on the line...NO!! And that's the kicker....it's going to be sold as a fight to decide the best middleweight on the planet at a weight which isn't 160 between two guys who have never fought at 160...

All the while there is a genuine 160lb fighter trying and waiting to prove he is the best in his division...that's the focal point of this whole thing for me. It's not that a Cotto v Alvarez fight isn't decent...it's just that plenty are championing it despite the background to it being the epitome of what's wrong with boxing these days.

Have the Cotto v Canelo fight by all means...but don't pretend it's a middleweight fight....don't sanction it as such and for the combatants of the contest don't go round after winning declaring yourself a 4 or 2 weight world champion because you are not...not even close because you decided to fight at catchweight for money instead of fighting the genuine & legitimate 1st/2nd best guy in the division to prove yourself a champion.

As for those stating GGG should move up if he wants to prove his greatness and add to his legacy; what difference does moving up make? Plenty say the fans already know he is the best middleweight...but will they say he is the best Super Middleweight should he go up to that division and not get fights with Froch or Ward? Of course they won't....yet missing out on fights with those two is just as likely a scenario as he is facing at 160. They are the two names in the division up....Froch & Hearn have already said they aren't interested, whether it be scared or doesn't sell...people have their own opinion, but the fact is that it isn't happening for at least 12 months and Ward is a no go both on a legal front and in terms of the pot size..

GGG people have said they are the ones who bring most to the table whilst Ward's obviously disagree. Now given Ward's inactivity, lack of fan base, extremely poor viewing figures and style...you'd have to say that apart from the belts he brings very little to the table. He seems lack a very difficult character to deal with, one only needs to read about what Dawson had to take to get a fight with him.

People have said that GGG doesn't get the big fight's as he brings little to the table high risk/low reward, but then the exact same applies to Ward. GGG isn't going to make much fighting him, would have to take the smaller end of the purse and go up in weight and should he lose then where does he go?! A win may not give him that much either as people would be quick to claim that Ward has had ongoing problems outside the ring and has been inactive....easy to say 'but he would have beaten the man at Super Middle' but chances are the fight would be catchweight and people would roll out excuses to devalue the win!

Do you not think that a catchweight in this situation made total sense though? Obviously it's a bit annoying to have people claiming to be the champion of a division when they have a catchweight set 1 pound below, but I think most people are more interested in individual fights than titles now.

That's the point though; if it's not at the weight limit then don't masquerade as a champion, 2 weight champion etc etc; certainly not if your not even going to take anyone on from the middleweight division/the consensus other best of the division afterwards which is going to be the case with Cotto.

The other problem is that people are using the whole 'GGG high risk/low reward' line to justify the fight; yet in 12 months when Mayweather is fighting Cotto again...or Alvarez fighting Mayweather...or Pacman fighting Marquez them same people will be moaning saying the fight proves nothing....forgetting completely that they were the ones championing this whole 'he sells...they don't reasoning'....

Yes there are fights that will sell more than others; but lets not pretend GGG is an unknown quantity who can't sell because he has sold 14,000 + tickets in MSG against an unknown fighter stateside who isn't from the states and wasn't a champion..! Is he high risk...yes...but low reward he is not. Cotto, Martinez, Froch, Ward...would all make a fair wedge fighting him and in the first 3 cases he's stated he would have no problem taking the minority share of the pie...

For instance...there was no way Martinez wouldn't have made at least the same amount fighting GGG as he did Cotto ($1.5m) and he would have got higher share of PPV revenue to boot. Same as Froch...he could fight Chavez but he will receive the minority of the PPV share and he will take the lower purse...switch that situation should he fight GGG and again I don't see how it can be called 'high risk/low reward'.

No Golovkin fight will be on PPV Owen and Froch would get a fair chunk from British PPV money, think you're underselling the selling power of Cotto and Froch a bit, both make a fair bit more a fight than GGG does.

Yes they do; I'm not debating they don't...what I am saying is; it's easy to say that a fight with GGG is a no go financially but whose to say that 25/30% of a split against Chavez/Canelo respectively is a larger portion of say 65% of the pot against GGG.

I don't think Chavez vs Froch does any better stateside; well certainly not remarkable better than Froch vs GGG either here in UK or in Vegas.

Likewise; Martinez vs GGG wouldn't have fared much worse than Cotto vs Martinez in terms of the purse which the Argentine went home with. He had the lower (much lower) percentage of the purse and took the small minority share in the PPV % split against Cotto. I don't think the $1.5m he got was anymore than what he would have earned against his divisional rival and I'd have given him many more kudos for going out against him than I do a money fight which didn't turn out to be a money fight against a fighter who didn't fight him at his weight, hadn't won a meaningful fight since 2007 against Mosely...

As for no GGG fight being on PPV...if you believe that you need you seriously need to re-evaluate your PPV history; should Cotto/Ward/Alvarez/Martinez fight him then there isn't a cat's chance that it isn't flogged on PPV stateside...likewise any Froch/GGG fight would be sold as PPV over here!

HBO have already come out and said that a fight with Froch would not be PPV and that is the point you're missing, a PPV with Chavez generates far more money and you seem under the assumption that Froch is a no name under there which is also incorrect.

As for a fight with Ward being PPV, not a chance, he's not what you would call a big name in boxing, talented yes but a seller he is not.

There's a very good reason why Chavez fights on PPV and that's because he sells big within the Mexican demographic, GGG does not have a fanbase like that.

Your whole opinion seems to be based on GGG getting decent numbers for a free fight on a subscription channel that the majority of the country already have.

I didn't say HBO for Froch; I said UK PPV should the fight happen over here; which tbh would be the only place it would happen in my view as an international fight without a Puerto Rican/Mexican involved over in America would never do tremendously.

As for Ward, whilst he isnt a seller, a fight between two guys considered the best in their respective divisions would be put on PPV; regardless of whether it sells well there isn't a chance HBO miss the opportunity to at least pull in PPV figures/sales. Why put it on for free when you can chance PPV (being that it is a fight with two big names boxing wise)...if Dawson v Ward is PPV so is GGG vs Ward...

Guerrero doesn't have a huge fan base....and Maidana doesn't have a massive one either...hence both Mayweather fights did under 1 million...yet they were both PPV...WHY? Because Mayweather is a big name and does sell...

Same applies to both Cotto and Chavez...it doesn't matter entirely if GGG sells tremendously, he just needs to bring in a few numbers as Cotto and Chavez would be the attraction thus would bring in the money. Money which they would both get a bigger share of...thus financially it's hardly low reward!

Ward against Dawson is the exact reason why it might not be put on PPV and the relatively poor numbers for the Cotto against Martinez fight, there's no guarantee it would be put on PPV.

Froch isn't going to fight Golovkin in the UK, he only wants Vegas so Chavez is the only option and as far as money goes if he did fight over here then Degale makes the most economical sense.

The problem GGG has is that any prospective PPV opponent would be the one pulling the viewers and figures in hence why it's high risk for low reward.

owen10ozzy wrote:Yes they do; I'm not debating they don't...what I am saying is; it's easy to say that a fight with GGG is a no go financially but whose to say that 25/30% of a split against Chavez/Canelo respectively is a larger portion of say 65% of the pot against GGG.

I don't think Chavez vs Froch does any better stateside; well certainly not remarkable better than Froch vs GGG either here in UK or in Vegas.

Likewise; Martinez vs GGG wouldn't have fared much worse than Cotto vs Martinez in terms of the purse which the Argentine went home with. He had the lower (much lower) percentage of the purse and took the small minority share in the PPV % split against Cotto. I don't think the $1.5m he got was anymore than what he would have earned against his divisional rival and I'd have given him many more kudos for going out against him than I do a money fight which didn't turn out to be a money fight against a fighter who didn't fight him at his weight, hadn't won a meaningful fight since 2007 against Mosely...

As for no GGG fight being on PPV...if you believe that you need you seriously need to re-evaluate your PPV history; should Cotto/Ward/Alvarez/Martinez fight him then there isn't a cat's chance that it isn't flogged on PPV stateside...likewise any Froch/GGG fight would be sold as PPV over here!

Golovkin would be a big fight for any of the big names but they have easier options on the table. You can over analyse these things to death, but what it comes down to is they aren't keen on fighting him. It would take mega money. There is a premium on Golovkin.

owen10ozzy wrote:That's the point though; if it's not at the weight limit then don't masquerade as a champion, 2 weight champion etc etc; certainly not if your not even going to take anyone on from the middleweight division/the consensus other best of the division afterwards which is going to be the case with Cotto.

The other problem is that people are using the whole 'GGG high risk/low reward' line to justify the fight; yet in 12 months when Mayweather is fighting Cotto again...or Alvarez fighting Mayweather...or Pacman fighting Marquez them same people will be moaning saying the fight proves nothing....forgetting completely that they were the ones championing this whole 'he sells...they don't reasoning'....

Yes there are fights that will sell more than others; but lets not pretend GGG is an unknown quantity who can't sell because he has sold 14,000 + tickets in MSG against an unknown fighter stateside who isn't from the states and wasn't a champion..! Is he high risk...yes...but low reward he is not. Cotto, Martinez, Froch, Ward...would all make a fair wedge fighting him and in the first 3 cases he's stated he would have no problem taking the minority share of the pie...

For instance...there was no way Martinez wouldn't have made at least the same amount fighting GGG as he did Cotto ($1.5m) and he would have got higher share of PPV revenue to boot. Same as Froch...he could fight Chavez but he will receive the minority of the PPV share and he will take the lower purse...switch that situation should he fight GGG and again I don't see how it can be called 'high risk/low reward'.

I hope that Gennady Golovkin gets his chances, he's a good fighter. At the same time, I really don't care whether or not Cotto fights him and I think that people should stop giving him flak for not taking the fight.
Here is my argument;

Cotto vs Martinez is a single fight event. Cotto stated in more than one interview before the fight that he wasn't sure whether or not he would even bother to defend if he won the belt. The idea of the event was Cotto vs Martinez, it just happens that because Martinez was the lineal middleweight champion that the notional title was on the line, which was obviously also helpful as a marketing tool. In real terms, Cotto winning doesn't have anything like the kind of significance attributed to it for the division as a whole. No-one in boxing really thinks Cotto is a proper middleweight, let alone the best middleweight, not even Cotto himself. By knocking Cotto out (as I'm sure he would) Golovkin would not be proving he was the best middleweight, simply capturing a notional lineal title and a largely meaningless alphabet one. Obviously I'm sure he'd like to do this in order to help him along in his career, but forgive me for not caring one bit whether or not it happens, I'd rather see competitive fights between well matched top level opponents. Cotto and Golovkin are both top level, but well matched they are not. Golovkin knocking out Cotto would simply be a pointless and distasteful ritual to pass on the aforementioned titles. Cotto will probably fight Alvarez next, good! Cotto vs Alvarez seems like a good fight to me, and hopefully Golovkin will get it on with Quillin or Martin Murray or some other legit middleweight. Cotto picked a man in the division above him that he thought he could beat, and he did beat him. In my mind he is no more obligated to take on every top fighter in that division than Roy Jones was obligated to fight Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko after he beat John Ruiz, it just so happened that the guy he beat had been the best middleweight prior to their encounter, but was patently not when they actually met.

catchweight wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Yes they do; I'm not debating they don't...what I am saying is; it's easy to say that a fight with GGG is a no go financially but whose to say that 25/30% of a split against Chavez/Canelo respectively is a larger portion of say 65% of the pot against GGG.

I don't think Chavez vs Froch does any better stateside; well certainly not remarkable better than Froch vs GGG either here in UK or in Vegas.

Likewise; Martinez vs GGG wouldn't have fared much worse than Cotto vs Martinez in terms of the purse which the Argentine went home with. He had the lower (much lower) percentage of the purse and took the small minority share in the PPV % split against Cotto. I don't think the $1.5m he got was anymore than what he would have earned against his divisional rival and I'd have given him many more kudos for going out against him than I do a money fight which didn't turn out to be a money fight against a fighter who didn't fight him at his weight, hadn't won a meaningful fight since 2007 against Mosely...

As for no GGG fight being on PPV...if you believe that you need you seriously need to re-evaluate your PPV history; should Cotto/Ward/Alvarez/Martinez fight him then there isn't a cat's chance that it isn't flogged on PPV stateside...likewise any Froch/GGG fight would be sold as PPV over here!

Golovkin would be a big fight for any of the big names but they have easier options on the table. You can over analyse these things to death, but what it comes down to is they aren't keen on fighting him. It would take mega money. There is a premium on Golovkin.

He's spot on......No one was keen on fighting Hagler...Liston or Jack Johnson either..........Fact is ad nauseum that Cotto beat the Man and like Minter fighting Vito again before Hagler..........He's allowed a voluntary..........

Not doing anything wrong so the criticism is wrong !!!....As for catchweight the alphabets should put their feet down........I imagine Robinson would have had Maxim coming in at 168 If his management team thought they could get away with it..

It's the alphabet soup which is to blame............Cotto should be fighting at 160.....But If you can get a deal....get it !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

catchweight wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Yes they do; I'm not debating they don't...what I am saying is; it's easy to say that a fight with GGG is a no go financially but whose to say that 25/30% of a split against Chavez/Canelo respectively is a larger portion of say 65% of the pot against GGG.

I don't think Chavez vs Froch does any better stateside; well certainly not remarkable better than Froch vs GGG either here in UK or in Vegas.

Likewise; Martinez vs GGG wouldn't have fared much worse than Cotto vs Martinez in terms of the purse which the Argentine went home with. He had the lower (much lower) percentage of the purse and took the small minority share in the PPV % split against Cotto. I don't think the $1.5m he got was anymore than what he would have earned against his divisional rival and I'd have given him many more kudos for going out against him than I do a money fight which didn't turn out to be a money fight against a fighter who didn't fight him at his weight, hadn't won a meaningful fight since 2007 against Mosely...

As for no GGG fight being on PPV...if you believe that you need you seriously need to re-evaluate your PPV history; should Cotto/Ward/Alvarez/Martinez fight him then there isn't a cat's chance that it isn't flogged on PPV stateside...likewise any Froch/GGG fight would be sold as PPV over here!

Golovkin would be a big fight for any of the big names but they have easier options on the table. You can over analyse these things to death, but what it comes down to is they aren't keen on fighting him. It would take mega money. There is a premium on Golovkin.

He's spot on......No one was keen on fighting Hagler...Liston or Jack Johnson either..........Fact is ad nauseum that Cotto beat the Man and like Minter fighting Vito again before Hagler..........He's allowed a voluntary..........

Not doing anything wrong so the criticism is wrong !!!....As for catchweight the alphabets should put their feet down........I imagine Robinson would have had Maxim coming in at 168 If his management team thought they could get away with it..

It's the alphabet soup which is to blame............Cotto should be fighting at 160.....But If you can get a deal....get it !!

Well lets apply that theory to all other boxing scenario's then; in fact if we use that argument then why do so many boxers get flak for so many things;

If you can win a world title and defend it against tomato can's do it...

If you can fight out of your own back yard and never have to travel do it...

If you can jump 3 levels higher than you've ever fought before and get a world title despite not being worthy of one do it...

If you can talk your way into a title fight do it...

If you can put on a PPV because the general public will fall for it do it...

If you can use performance enhancers and get away with it do it...

And when it all happens let there be no one on here who criticises it because all of those situations are the exact same; people taking advantage of the system, so the blame does not lie on them thus they should be exempt from criticism....

Are you feeling ok, Owen ??

Just playing devils advocate Truss;

I can see your point and as I have said the Canelo v Cotto fight is one I don't have a problem with on the surface; however the way it will be portrayed, the fact it is for a linear title but will not be at said title's weight and the fact that the actual best middleweight is being frozen out of the opportunity to prove it just doesn't sit right with me.

Of course it's not the fighters fault that the loophole is there, but that doesn't mean they are to be excused for using it...like I said if that is the case then surely there are plenty of examples where boxers have been blamed and in retrospect they shouldn't have been. It's perhaps the most controversial to use but as I said regards performance enhancers; loopholes exist allowing the use of them...so why so much criticism for boxers who choose to use them...the reason...the moral compass which people have...whilst it is the extreme it is still a relevant point. The difference in who is to blame in all of these scenarios is merely decided by a posters moral compass....what they feel is and isn't right when it comes to extorting the loopholes that exist in boxing.

So many on here are quick to claim that boxing isn't providing new stars and there are no contenders to the Manny/Floyd throne....yet this fight is a prime example of why that is the case. Potential stars being frozen out of the picture because the best boxers choose to take the money fight and at times a money fight which doesn't actually pay all that much better than the alternative 'tough/legacy enhancing fight'.

Surely we can't clamour for new stars to be made and then turn a blind eye when obstacles exist and are being exploited which stop such stars being made..

owen10ozzy wrote:Just playing devils advocate Truss; ..

I'll be Pacino....

Do you know what the big problem is Owen......Titles don't mean anything...............In the old days having one championship was your ticket to stardom and financial security.........These days the average fan laughs at the alphabets and it's all about the marketability of the fighter...

The old fighters needed the belt to make money back then...........These days they don't !!..............So being stripped was the end of the World and you did what you were told...

These days Cotto can say to the WBC I'll fight Alvarez with you or without you...Your choice whether you want to miss out on the £1 million sanction fee or whatever it is !!

But it's folly to believe the old champions with such riches on offer wouldn't have tilted the modern system to their advantage..

Regarding Cotto...........He's entitled to a voluntary.....Doesn't fight GGG after that I'll get on his case on here..

Agreed regards the belt Truss; perhaps the major problem with the system and therefore with creating new stars...

You look at Canelo, Cotto, Manny, Marquez, Mayweather, Bradley and that's a list of 5 fighters who could if they chose to just spend the next 3 years fighting one another...they would all be 'money fights' but none would go anyway to helping creating a new star...

Perhaps that's where my gripe lies, the fact that looking in I just cannot see how the likes of GGG and any other boxer who god forbid isn't American/Mexican/Puerto Rican and is knocking people out for fun is going to get anywhere near the big fights...

All well and good saying 'high risk/low reward'...yet just how is someone like GGG becoming high reward going to change things? Even if he brings money to the table he is still 'High Risk/High Reward' and there is just as much chance the aforementioned bunch don't fight him then as they can take on a 'low risk/medium reward' fight instead.

Regarding your last comment...if the Andy Lee fight goes ahead then that is his voluntary...so do you then defend him if he fight's Alvarez over GGG?

I don't think Cotto vs Canelo would be billed as a fight to determine the best middleweight in the world. To echo sitting ringside from earlier, I think it would be a case of name vs. name.

GGG is the best middleweight in the world. I know it, you know it, Grandpa Jorge Cotto and all his cousins know it.

No one is arguing with you.

Martinez though was the Man at middle..

owen10ozzy wrote:Just playing devils advocate Truss;

I can see your point and as I have said the Canelo v Cotto fight is one I don't have a problem with on the surface; however the way it will be portrayed, the fact it is for a linear title but will not be at said title's weight and the fact that the actual best middleweight is being frozen out of the opportunity to prove it just doesn't sit right with me.

Of course it's not the fighters fault that the loophole is there, but that doesn't mean they are to be excused for using it...like I said if that is the case then surely there are plenty of examples where boxers have been blamed and in retrospect they shouldn't have been. It's perhaps the most controversial to use but as I said regards performance enhancers; loopholes exist allowing the use of them...so why so much criticism for boxers who choose to use them...the reason...the moral compass which people have...whilst it is the extreme it is still a relevant point. The difference in who is to blame in all of these scenarios is merely decided by a posters moral compass....what they feel is and isn't right when it comes to extorting the loopholes that exist in boxing.

So many on here are quick to claim that boxing isn't providing new stars and there are no contenders to the Manny/Floyd throne....yet this fight is a prime example of why that is the case. Potential stars being frozen out of the picture because the best boxers choose to take the money fight and at times a money fight which doesn't actually pay all that much better than the alternative 'tough/legacy enhancing fight'.

Surely we can't clamour for new stars to be made and then turn a blind eye when obstacles exist and are being exploited which stop such stars being made..

The fact it, the linear title is simply a notional title. If you like, you can say that Cotto didn't win it because the fight wasn't at the Middleweight limit. Cotto being the linear middleweight champion is simply a quirk of fate. If Cotto has his Alvarez fight, and goes about banging on about how he's king of the middleweights then I would say he is somewhat obligated to back it up by fighting the top middleweights, but unless that happens then as I said previously I don't think it's necessary for him to fight Golovkin at all. Do you think that by beating Cotto Golovkin would have proved himself the best middleweight? I certainly don't.

I don't think Louis needed to beat Braddock to prove he was the best Heavy..

But Braddock was the man...

If the best fighter was always the Champion the title would never change hands..

Martinez was number 1 at middle.........A title he earned over a number of years..

No it wouldn't; but it would give him the big fight that he craves and deserves and will need to push on to that next level amongst the elite. All well and good people saying that he is hype, hasn't proven himself yet etc etc but until he gets a shot at your Cotto's, Martinez, Alvarez & those of that ilk then people will continue to say the same forgetting completely that they are also the ones saying 'he doesn't deserve the shot...or isn't a big enough name financially to get a shot'...it's a catch 22 situation for him.

He missed out on the Martinez fight, the Argentine choosing a retirement fund fight that in the end was more just a retirement fight than any kind of fund...he's going to miss out on the Cotto fight as Alvarez, the man who said he wasn't interested in moving to middle, is set to get to him first...(oddly enough one man who hasn't fought at Middleweight...fighting one man who said he wasn't interested in middleweight) fighting for a middleweight title...Ward is set to fight Kessler if rumours are to be believed....Froch only wants Chavez & his promoter has essentially ruled out GGG for at least 12 months...Quillin if were honest isn't going to go anywhere near GGG..

That leaves Sturm, Soliman, and perhaps Murray....I guarantee if he fights the first of those two people will be slating him for his level of opponent...perhaps not as much if it's Murray, however should he blast him out we will get the 'well Murray has never won on the world stage' line..!

owen10ozzy wrote:No it wouldn't; but it would give him the big fight that he craves and deserves and will need to push on to that next level amongst the elite. All well and good people saying that he is hype, hasn't proven himself yet etc etc but until he gets a shot at your Cotto's, Martinez, Alvarez & those of that ilk then people will continue to say the same forgetting completely that they are also the ones saying 'he doesn't deserve the shot...or isn't a big enough name financially to get a shot'...it's a catch 22 situation for him.

He missed out on the Martinez fight, the Argentine choosing a retirement fund fight that in the end was more just a retirement fight than any kind of fund...he's going to miss out on the Cotto fight as Alvarez, the man who said he wasn't interested in moving to middle, is set to get to him first...(oddly enough one man who hasn't fought at Middleweight...fighting one man who said he wasn't interested in middleweight) fighting for a middleweight title...Ward is set to fight Kessler if rumours are to be believed....Froch only wants Chavez & his promoter has essentially ruled out GGG for at least 12 months...Quillin if were honest isn't going to go anywhere near GGG..

That leaves Sturm, Soliman, and perhaps Murray....I guarantee if he fights the first of those two people will be slating him for his level of opponent...perhaps not as much if it's Murray, however should he blast him out we will get the 'well Murray has never won on the world stage' line..!

I think if he fought any of those last three you mentioned, then I think it would be much more worthwhile than fighting Cotto. I reiterate my point that fighting and beating Martinez does not obligate Cotto to fight any given middleweight, it was a one off fight that happened to be against the lineal champion. I take your point Truss that Braddock was not the best heavyweight when Louis beat him, but in that case the prize was the actual official heavyweight title, a piece of tangible property. The lineal title is simply a notion, and there can be four (Major) sanctioned world titles at any time so Cotto is not preventing Golovkin from achieving anything by not putting his WBC bauble on the line against him (it might not get sanctioned for unification anyway). Golovkin can still bill his fights as world championships, still fight good fighters for good purses, and anyone who is knowledgeable enough to know that he isn't the lineal champion is knowledgeable enough to know that battering a small light-middleweight wouldn't really prove anything about his status as a middleweight.

I'll agree with sittingringside on this occasion, Cotto has no obligation to fight GGG at this stage. Only if he chooses to reside there for a prolonged period and starts to call himself the best middle in the world could fans demand for the fight.

[quote="milkyboy"]I'm in the same camp as Chris on it. Froch's proved his nads on countless occasions but he was pretty quick to distance himself from stevenson when he flattened bellew and then said he'd go back to super middle for froch.

Our iron chinned super warrior isn't falling over himself to fight the big bangers!


Milky, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Froch say he would be prepared to fight Stevenson but only if the latter were to come back down to SM. Don't recall Stevenson coming back with anything after that.