Toulon, the greatest success story of the professional era...

I'm not going to comment on this as it's pretty obvious what my view is, and hopefulle some other posters won't either as he is the anti me on this issue. We've shared views and although we differ i've thoroughly enjoyed the debate, and although not said so taken a few comments on board from him (sshhh don't tell him).

I am genuinely curious what peoples thoughts on Toulon are, positive or negative, and if you agree with the statement.

Thanks

Success story?

A successful team no doubt, in the main due to the bottomless pockets of the owner and the lack of salary cap in France. It's taken them a while, 'success' was by no means instant.

Great team, but at a cost, possibly not just in monetary terms, but at a cost to some home nations club team ambition.

Its called professionalism...was bound to happen...and anyone who thinks not is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Purely on rugby terms I'd have thought there were a few strong competitors for that claim (in no particular order):

Leicester Tigers (dominance in England and two HC wins), All Blacks (most successful international side), Toulouse (most HC wins plus competitive consistently in France), Leinster (3 HC wins plus Rabo victories), South Africa (most successful team in the World Cup)......

Toulon are a bit "Jonny come lately" for that label.

Very good point FES.

Remind me of a Blackburn rovers...and the house that Jack built.

There's a few examples in football - I think Chelsea and Man City neatly fit into the Toulon category in footballing terms. No doubting the success in the short term, but the question still remains for both sides, as it does for Toulon, as to whether that success can be maintained in the same way that it has for the other sorts of sides I've mentioned.

Removed

LondonTiger wrote:

Neutralee wrote:
I am genuinely curious what peoples thoughts on Toulon are, positive or negative, and if you agree with the statement.

In your world of black and white you may struggle to comprehend my views. My thoughts on Toulon (having been there on a couple of occasions to watch matches) is that they are a fantastic club with insanely passionate fans. They are an all inclusive non snobbish club and much about the club is to be applauded.

Despite being "galacticos" the players they bring in have to adapt to the Toulon work ethic or they will struggle. some star players do not have it within themselves to match the professionalism set down by the likes of Botha and wilkinson and fall by the wayside - that tells us a little about their own character.

They are close to being "self-sustaining" - though mad Mourad has spent a lot to get to that place.

Negative - I do wish they would look at developing some of their own players more.


Overall a fantastic club, and a great success story - but no not the greatest success story ever.

Again, have you ever commented without feeling the need to start with an insult? try it you might like it?

A agree with LondonTiger. Why does everything have to be either horrific or brilliant?

Some very narrow-minded views on here, especially among one of the 'newer' posters. Still, I don't for a minute believe it's his real opinion.

Cyril wrote:A agree with LondonTiger. Why does everything have to be either horrific or brilliant?

Some very narrow-minded views on here, especially among one of the 'newer' posters. Still, I don't for a minute believe it's his real opinion.

Oh come on mate, I thought you were over this, and btw I havn't stated an opinion on here, I want to learn from this thread, not try to force my views on others, please let me know your thoughts on Toulon.

Take you back to Wales losing players to league.

They're a really good team. I'd love to see them get drawn away in Ireland for a European semi final for a change. Would be interesting.

The greatest success story of the pro era would be New Zealand. Surely no team comes close?

No, simply because they have still won less than Leinster, Toulouse or Leicester Tigers.

Toulon, the greatest success story of the professional era...?

Not yet.

Give it another 10 years and they might be.

Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

Biltong wrote:Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

It can buy success. It doesnt mean it will. And for all the talk of mercenaries it wouldnt work at all unless some players hang around for the full term. And they have.

The greatest problems seem to be lack of development of young French talent and the knock on effect it has on France.

Success in terms of results, management and vision clearly yes but they are a long way to be everyone 2nd team. A bit like marmite I guess.

lostinwales wrote:

Biltong wrote:Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

It can buy success. It doesnt mean it will. And for all the talk of mercenaries it wouldnt work at all unless some players hang around for the full term. And they have.

The greatest problems seem to be lack of development of young French talent and the knock on effect it has on France.

Which isn't Toulon's fault, they work within the French business model.

Agree that money can buy success but it isn't guarranteed. These so-called 'mercenaries' seem to have a really good work ethic and gel well together. They're willing to work hard for each other and seem to have a really good team spirit. Along with a great location, wonderful standard of living in Southern France and brilliant fans what's not to love? Plus you've got Jonny on the coaching team.

lostinwales wrote:

Biltong wrote:Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

It can buy success. It doesnt mean it will. And for all the talk of mercenaries it wouldnt work at all unless some players hang around for the full term. And they have.

The greatest problems seem to be lack of development of young French talent and the knock on effect it has on France.

It is all word play mate, but yes, you are correct and that is what I meant.

Money can buy you success, especially on the rugby field, it provides you with the best talent, you still need to make it work though.

I think Toulon are a great club, fantastic squad, brilliant facillities and do a lot of community work as well.
Their stadium is one of the most atmospheric in the world and is definitely an experience to go and watch a game there.
Was reading an article in the french press this morning and Toulon dont have the biggest budget in the top 14. That goes to Toulouse who's budget is 10million euros more than Toulon, Clermont had the 2nd highest budget.

I don't think they are the greatest success story of the professional era.

If you take it from the start of professionalism then the Crusaders take some beating (and that is coming from a NH kid).

Toulon currently have the best squad. But at different times Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Munster and Wasps all had the best squad and experienced success in their league and in the European Cup over multiple seasons that could put them in a decent argument with Toulon for best in the professional era. Just think that Crusaders have/had a longer period at the top of their respective multi-union competition.

Cyril wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Biltong wrote:Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

It can buy success. It doesnt mean it will. And for all the talk of mercenaries it wouldnt work at all unless some players hang around for the full term. And they have.

The greatest problems seem to be lack of development of young French talent and the knock on effect it has on France.

Which isn't Toulon's fault, they work within the French business model.

Agree that money can buy success but it isn't guarranteed. These so-called 'mercenaries' seem to have a really good work ethic and gel well together. They're willing to work hard for each other and seem to have a really good team spirit. Along with a great location, wonderful standard of living in Southern France and brilliant fans what's not to love? Plus you've got Jonny on the coaching team.

Well put it this way then, it is a greater achievement to be successful in Europe if you have developed your own players and on a much smaller budget.

Several teams have done that who have been just, if not more successful.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I don't think they are the greatest success story of the professional era.

If you take it from the start of professionalism then the Crusaders take some beating (and that is coming from a NH kid).

Toulon currently have the best squad.  But at different times Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Munster and Wasps all had the best squad and experienced success in their league and in the European Cup over multiple seasons that could put them in a decent argument with Toulon for best in the professional era.  Just think that Crusaders have/had a longer period at the top of their respective multi-union competition.

Heineken Cup is a bit more difficult to negotiate with an awful lot of luck involved. Toulouse & Leicester have probably been the most consistent since the start of professionalism.

Biggest improvement was Munster (Toulouse put 50+pts on them in 1996, Munster beat them 4 years later down in Toulouse having gone semi-professional 2 years earlier).

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Biltong wrote:Toulon has proved money buys success.

It isn't really news.

It can buy success. It doesnt mean it will. And for all the talk of mercenaries it wouldnt work at all unless some players hang around for the full term. And they have.

The greatest problems seem to be lack of development of young French talent and the knock on effect it has on France.

Which isn't Toulon's fault, they work within the French business model.

Agree that money can buy success but it isn't guarranteed. These so-called 'mercenaries' seem to have a really good work ethic and gel well together. They're willing to work hard for each other and seem to have a really good team spirit. Along with a great location, wonderful standard of living in Southern France and brilliant fans what's not to love? Plus you've got Jonny on the coaching team.

Well put it this way then, it is a greater achievement to be successful in Europe if you have developed your own players and on a much smaller budget.

Several teams have done that who have been just, if not more successful.

I'm not saying it's a greater achievement or that Toulon have been more successful. I am saying I'd rather live on the med coast than in Cork though

Cyril wrote:

I'm not saying it's a greater achievement or that Toulon have been more successful. I am saying I'd rather live on the med coast than in Cork though [/quote]

Not the Med, but ...

West Cork: is it the new Dordogne?
Keith Nuthall reports on the tranquil and undeveloped area of southern Irish coast that is gradually being colonised by our celebrities

Jeremy Paxman, Rabbi Julia Neuberger, Margaret Jay, Anthony Lester QC, Judge Pickles, Victoria Glendinning, Edward de Bono, Keith Floyd, Michael Gough, Jeremy Irons and Sir David Puttnam are just a handful of the notables for whom the attractions of Sarlat and San Gimignano have paled besides those of Ballydehob and Skibbereen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/west-cork-is-it-the-new-dordogne-1310194.html

Doug Howlett & family are still there. Took out Irish citizenship recently. Mustn't be all that bad   

Sin é wrote:

I'm not saying it's a greater achievement or that Toulon have been more successful. I am saying I'd rather live on the med coast than in Cork though

Not the Med, but ...

West Cork: is it the new Dordogne?
Keith Nuthall reports on the tranquil and undeveloped area of southern Irish coast that is gradually being colonised by our celebrities

Jeremy Paxman, Rabbi Julia Neuberger, Margaret Jay, Anthony Lester QC, Judge Pickles, Victoria Glendinning, Edward de Bono, Keith Floyd, Michael Gough, Jeremy Irons and Sir David Puttnam are just a handful of the notables for whom the attractions of Sarlat and San Gimignano have paled besides those of Ballydehob and Skibbereen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/west-cork-is-it-the-new-dordogne-1310194.html

Doug Howlett & family are still there. Took out Irish citizenship recently. Mustn't be all that bad   [/quote]

Dead, sadly - and he was living in France at the time

The Crusaders are really the benchmark when it comes to club teams I would think.

FerN wrote:The Crusaders are really the benchmark when it comes to club teams I would think.

 
Who?

How many HC's have they won?

I would say Exeter Chiefs is a great success story in the professional era. From a championship side to now a solid member of the Aviva Premiership. Plans to increase Sandy Park to 20,000 shows that they are making good progress.

They've not got the money of a Bath or Saracens in the AP but it's not stopping their growth.

Big season for them this year.

My thoughts on Toulon and Mourad.

Mourad is a very passionate rugby fan who has put his heart and soul into Toulon but he doesn't care about the damage done to the French national side.

His team are galacticos - golden oldies, experienced players who know how to win. Not enough youngsters.Very poor development of French players. Damaging to the French international team but great for Toulon itself.

To generate sales, merchandise and win trophies it's a successful policy but most of the best players are imports. Toulon rugby is not really a French team though the supporters are French.

Toulon rugby has things in common with Man City and Chelsea.

A team like Saracens differs from this because there is more emphasis on the English core and the youth side. Saracens are disliked for various reasons but they are do contribute their fair share to the England squad.

beshocked wrote:My thoughts on Toulon and Mourad.

Mourad is a very passionate rugby fan who has put his heart and soul into Toulon but he doesn't care about the damage done to the French national side.

His team are galacticos - golden oldies, experienced players who know how to win. Not enough youngsters.Very poor development of French players. Damaging to the French international team but great for Toulon itself.

To generate sales, merchandise and win trophies it's a successful policy but most of the best players are imports. Toulon rugby is not really a French team though the supporters are French.

Toulon rugby has things in common with Man City and Chelsea.

A team like Saracens differs from this because there is more emphasis on the English core and the youth side. Saracens are disliked for various reasons but they are do contribute their fair share to the England squad.

they certainly do now more than they did, but, is what they're contributing at 1st XV quality or not? Farrell still looks ropey at times, Barritt & Goode are being marginalised for example.

Well Jimpy they've played in the 1st XV so yes they have shown themselves to be of that quality. Those 3 have beaten the all blacks as starters - not bad at all.

They might not be the greatest players in the world but they've certainly contributed to Lancaster's reign as coach.

Plus there are players like Tompkins,Itoje and Earle who are coming through.

Oh and England poached one of Saracen's coaches - though England are welcome to have him! Poached the wrong coach! Though I am sure the RFU will get the right man eventually.

beshocked wrote:Well Jimpy they've played in the 1st XV so yes they have shown themselves to be of that quality. Those 3 have beaten the all blacks as starters - not bad at all.

They might not be the greatest players in the world but they've certainly contributed to Lancaster's reign as coach.

Plus there are players like Tompkins,Itoje and Earle who are coming through.

Oh and England poached one of Saracen's coaches - though England are welcome to have him! Poached the wrong coach! Though I am sure the RFU will get the right man eventually.

Well indeed, there seems to have been a sea change under Lancaster as he picks his team from a more diverse club base than previous coaches did. Half the team used to come from Tigers for example, and now they don't - rightly so as well. Reputation will only get you so far under Lancaster it would seem.

Is it false of me to think that most of the great Test sides have had a strong representation from a single club in their ranks?

Maybe it is more of a soccer thing, Bayern providing Germany, Barcelona providing Spain, etc. There must be that little bit of familiarity and telepathy from playing together both club and country which means you automatically move into position rather than having to think about moving into position during plays.

I definitely think you can go too far in that direction though. Brian Moore in his excellent autobiography makes the point with reference to England in the late 80s and Wales in the early 90s who tried to clone Bath and Neath respectively, and failed to spot that fact that advantages the players in those sides had at club level did not necessarily translate to the international scene.

Whilst selecting the odd club combination can be extremely effective (Stringer and O'Gara/Gregan and Larkham strike me as good recent examples of players on the same wave length due to familiarity), basing an international side on a club side rarely seems to work, and rarely seems to maximise the potential of the players available to an international side.

These are the budgets for the Top 14 sides over the last few seasons.

2012-2013
Toulouse  34,9 M€
Clermont  25,5 M€
Stade Français  22,8 M€
Toulon  21,8 M€
Racing-Métro  21,7 M€
Bayonne  17,9 M€
Montpellier  17,5 M€
Biarritz  17,3 M€
Castres  15,6 M€
Grenoble  14,9 M€
Perpignan  14,4 M€
Agen  13,2 M€
Bordeaux-Bègles  11,9 M€
Mont-de-Marsan  6,2 M€

2013-2014
Toulouse  35,4 M€
Clermont  26,7 M€
Stade Français  25,0 M€
Toulon  23,7 M€
Racing-Métro 92  22,5 M€
Montpellier  20,0 M€
Grenoble  18,6 M€
Bayonne 18,1 M€
Castres  17,3 M€
Biarritz  16,9 M€
Perpignan  15,0 M€
Bordeaux-Bègles  12,9 M€
Brive  11,1 M€
Oyonnax  9,1 M€

2014-2015
Toulouse  35,0 M€
Clermont  27,9 M€
Toulon  25,4 M€
Racing-Métro 92  25,4 M€
Stade Français  25,3 M€
Montpellier  22,5 M€
Lyon  21,0 M€
Grenoble  20,8 M€
Castres  19,0 M€
Bordeaux-Bègles  15,9 M€
Bayonne 15,8 M€
La Rochelle  14,5 M€
Oyonnax  14,3 M€
Brive  13,6 M€

I have no doubt that if the same spending restrictions - errr, none by the look of it - applied here then certain clubs in the AP are likely to take the same route as the big spending French clubs.

The incentive they currently receive for having an average of 15 EQPs, or above, in the match day 23 would be peanuts. I could see the old club v country argument rearing its head.

Toulon are a difficult side to like for me. Sure their fans are passionate about the club, but filling a team with ageing stars to the detriment of your own countrymen will never sit well with me.

But a glance around the recent transfers in the top two tiers of the English game shows a very high turnover* and possibly higher than in France.. There's just nowhere near as much money involved in the salaries and the majority of players were playing here already.

*Of the Wasps team who took the field in the first HC pool game of the 2010/11 season, only one remains who hasn't left the club and come back...Tom Varndell. [size=110]We have probably had more turnover of players in the last four seasons than Toulon; they're just not as high profile.[/size]

Still, when Wasps were successful 6-12 years ago the squad was largely home grown with a few high profile additions (Leota, Howley, Ibanez, Vickery), which made winning all the trophies more satisfying. Unbeaten in 10 successive finals from 1999 to 2008. Can anyone beat that record in the pro era?

 

So, based upon the data shared above Toulon is only a platry 3rd or 4th highest spending club in France. How come no one slams Toulouse with the same vehemence as Toulon? Why is Toulon the poster child for everything wrong with big-spending clubs and Toulouse gets nary a passing glance?

Methinks we know the answer, don't we lads?????

Oooh....it couldn't be 'Jonny jealousy/hatred' syndrome could it?

More success for the modest Mr. Wilkinson.

doctor_grey wrote:So, based upon the data shared above Toulon is only a platry 3rd or 4th highest spending club in France.  How come no one slams Toulouse with the same vehemence as Toulon?  Why is Toulon the poster child for everything wrong with big-spending clubs and Toulouse gets nary a passing glance?  

Methinks we know the answer, don't we lads?????

Toulouse isn't the plaything of some billionaire. Probably why it has remained at the top of European rugby for so long. Toulouse has a Michelin Star restaurant for goodness sakes. Its a huge business, develops a lot of players that go on to become French internationals.

Its completely different to Toulon who buy in everything (but they do have great fans).

Hound of Harrow wrote:Oooh....it couldn't be 'Jonny jealousy/hatred' syndrome could it?

More success for the modest Mr. Wilkinson.

Toulon are using Mr Wilkinson to give them an air of respectability. If Mr Wilkinson wasn't associated with Toulon, you'd all be slagging them off, wouldn't you?

And the modest Mr Wilkinson has raked the cash in. Not slow to know his own value, is he?

Calm down Sin. It's all tongue in cheek. The OP is on an anti Toulon crusade.

I was supporting Clermont at the Aviva in last year's HC final for what it's worth.

My little dig was absolutely tongue in cheek.
But the premise of my original point is valid.  To be logically consistent, how can Toulouse get a free pass and Toulon does not?  To me one of the main enablers for Toulouse to remain at/near the top of French and European Rugby is because they pay the money.  I can't see the distinction between Toulouse spending a lot of money and Toulon spending a lot of money.  That kind of big money in Rugby is a problem or it is not.  No matter whether the owner of the club is King Louis XIV or Charles DeGaulle.

What I want to know is how Toulouse can have that budget and still have a modest enough squad when compared to Toulon. There's gotta be something pushing their budget up because surely in terms of wages Toulon must be paying more.

For reference here is Toulouses squad;

Hooker
Christopher Tolofua, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Corey Flynn
Prop
Schalk Ferreira, Census Johnston , Neemia Tialata, Vasil Kakovin, Yohan Montès, Gurthrö Steenkamp
Lock
Patricio Albacete, Joe Tekori, Yoann Maestri, Romain Millo-Chluski
Flanker
Yacouba Camara, Thierry Dusautoir (C), Grégory Lamboley, Yannick Nyanga
Number 8
Louis Picamoles, Gillian Galan, Edwin Maka, Imanol Harinordoquy
Scrumhalf
Sebastian Bezy, Jean-Marc Doussain, Jano Vermaak
Outhalf
Toby Flood, Luke McAlister
Centre
Yann David, Gael Fickou, Florian Fritz
Wing
Vincent Clerc, Yoann Huget, Timoci Matanavou, Alexis Palisson
Fullback
Maxime Médard, Clément Poitrenaud

Here is Toulons

Hooker
Sébastien Bruno, Craig Burden, Guilhem Guirado, Jean-Charles Orioli
Prop
Fabien Barcella, Levan Chilachava, Martin Castrogiovanni, Xavier Chiocci, Florian Fresia, Carl Hayman (c), Alexandre Menini, Andrew Sheridan
Lock
Bakkies Botha, Konstantin Mikautadze, Jocelino Suta, Romain Taofifénua, Ali Williams
Flanker
Steffon Armitage, Virgile Bruni, Mamuka Gorgodze, Juan Smith, Gerhard Vosloo
Number 8
Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe, Chris Masoe
Scrum-half
Michael Claassens, Nicolas Durand, Eric Escande, Sébastien Tillous-Borde
Outhalf
Frédéric Michalak, James O'Connor, Matt Giteau
Centre
Mathieu Bastareaud, Maxime Mermoz, Ivan Roux
Wing
Bryan Habana, Josua Tuisova, David Smith, Rudi Wulf
Fullback
Delon Armitage, Leigh Halfpenny, Drew Mitchell

So it's really hard to say Toulouse are outspending them in terms of the squad. What is it? Stadium?

It's funny that the English are quite easy going about Toulon spending their way to success while the Irish seem particularly annoyed by it.

I reckon it's because soccer is the dominant sport in England by far, and it's long been a thatcherite paradise where money is probably the biggest factor in who wins. Whereas in Ireland the GAA dominates, which is amateur and the vast majority of players play for where they're from. It's all about local pride, and producing talent equates to success. Maybe the dominance of these different sports in England and Ireland colours the respective rugby fans opinions on what the "right" way for sport to be run is.

Personally I think the American sports model is the obvious hybrid between the union franchise route that has developed in Ireland/Scotland/Italy as well as the southern hemisphere, and the private business model in England and France. But crucially, it requires everyone to be on the same page working towards the collective good. At the moment Europe has sub groups working against each other which is causing all sorts of harm.

Recently a New York soccer franchise has been parachuted into the top tier of US soccer because it makes complete financial sense for everyone, and there are willing private investors. I think there are geographic regions in Europe which could also benefit everyone like maybe Tbilsi, Moscow and Bucharest.

In the current setup there is basically no hope of these places tasting the top tier. That's why I'd love to abolish the Premiership/Top 14/PRO12 barriers in Europe and set up a pan European tournament where financial viability decides if a team is in or out, but money does not decide the winners, because profits are shared evenly among competitors. A level financial playing field would encourage all teams to invest in training their kids. And finding new geographic regions to enter a team is in everyones interests, rather than excluding teams who are not part of your sub group. We could all rise together and eventually someday surpass southern hemisphere.

But unfortunately I 100% believe the Toulon model has already won, and the future is a small number of elite French clubs hoovering up the talent of rest and stunting the growth of the game anywhere else.

Feckless, that's one heck of a lot of generalisation you've just posted there  

I think you'll find this 'Thatcherite paradise' you speak of is about as popular in England as the one Cromwell left in Ireland.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Personally I think the American sports model is the obvious hybrid between the union franchise route that has developed in Ireland/Scotland/Italy as well as the southern hemisphere, and the private business model in England and France. But crucially, it requires everyone to be on the same page working towards the collective good. At the moment Europe has sub groups working against each other which is causing all sorts of harm.

Recently a New York soccer franchise has been parachuted into the top tier of US soccer because it makes complete financial sense for everyone, and there are willing private investors. I think there are geographic regions in Europe which could also benefit everyone like maybe Tbilsi, Moscow and Bucharest.

There is a reason why US soccer is now regarded as the retirement home for a few lucky European players. The standard is rubbish and setting up a franchise in New York is way worse than anything Toulon has tried to accomplish.

The teams that everyone will get behind still remain the underdogs that accomplish something great that they were not expected to do such as Notts Forest and Aberdeen in Soccer and the likes of Kilkenny & Kerry in hurling and football. They have done it without the money/huge population year after year over the years.

'But unfortunately I 100% believe the Toulon model has already won, and the future is a small number of elite French clubs hoovering up the talent of rest and stunting the growth of the game anywhere else.'

Maybe more countries should be 'strong' like England and only pick players who play in their own country (generally)?

Sin é wrote:There is a reason why US soccer is now regarded as the retirement home for a few lucky European players. The standard is rubbish and setting up a franchise in New York is way worse than anything Toulon has tried to accomplish.

New York Cosmos did this back in the 70s with Pele and Beckenbauer etc. It's hardly a new thing.