Toulon, the greatest success story of the professional era...

First topic message reminder :

I'm not going to comment on this as it's pretty obvious what my view is, and hopefulle some other posters won't either as he is the anti me on this issue. We've shared views and although we differ i've thoroughly enjoyed the debate, and although not said so taken a few comments on board from him (sshhh don't tell him).

I am genuinely curious what peoples thoughts on Toulon are, positive or negative, and if you agree with the statement.

Thanks

Feckless,
Not sure how you can claim the English are blasé about Toulon.  I think most people agree the big money in France is a problem, so it is a French issue, not an issue confined to a single club. To me, there is a clear need for a pan-European (global, perhaps?) salary cap for club Rugby.  I don't think I am alone, and it doesn't grant one access to the Thatcherite club.

My question is why Toulon gets singled out.  I started asking half-in-jest, but now it does seem peculiar.  They are not the biggest spender, nor are they the biggest spender historically.  If Toulouse spends more, and has spent more annually over a longer period of time, shouldn't they be singled out as the problem?  The 'Toulouse' model as a danger to the sport?

Also not sure why the US soccer league adding a franchise in New York is relevent here.  The US soccer people are trying to grow the sport, and adding a team in New York City makes a lot of sense to me.  The NFL adds franchises and no one has a problem.  This is the way pro sport works in America.  I think you are mixing business models here. Super Rugby added franchises in Melbourne and Perth, and no one called it a problem.

I think one of the reasons Toulon are singled out is that they have had relatively recent success ie. not a long history like Toulouse.

Other blgger spenders like Racing & Stade just haven't been as successful as Toulon. So there is an element of 'they have bought their success' which of course is true.
No one cares so much if clubs spend loads & win little.

I think those budgets are not just playing squad wages, Toulouse has huge infrastructure around it, restaurants , mega stores etc. the budget covers that too, which would account for the fact that it's far above anyone elses.

Toulouse and Clermont are one of the very rare french clubs (including football) to own their stadium. Toulon plays a relative small fee to the city.

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:There is a reason why US soccer is now regarded as the retirement home for a few lucky European players. The standard is rubbish and setting up a franchise in New York is way worse than anything Toulon has tried to accomplish.

New York Cosmos did this back in the 70s with Pele and Beckenbauer etc. It's hardly a new thing.

And it didn't work then either. Men's soccer just isn't rated in the USA.

Mickado wrote:I think those budgets are not just playing squad wages, Toulouse has huge infrastructure around it, restaurants , mega stores etc. the budget covers that too, which would account for the fact that it's far above anyone elses.

Well they have a 10M salary cap don't they? So you'd hope it's not the playing salary (if they're going to cheat it at least be subtle).

doctor_grey wrote:Feckless,
Not sure how you can claim the English are blasé about Toulon.  I think most people agree the big money in France is a problem, so it is a French issue, not an issue confined to a single club.  To me, there is a clear need for a pan-European (global, perhaps?) salary cap for club Rugby.  I don't think I am alone, and it doesn't grant one access to the Thatcherite club.  

My question is why Toulon gets singled out.  I started asking half-in-jest, but now it does seem peculiar.  They are not the biggest spender, nor are they the biggest spender historically.  If Toulouse spends more, and has spent more annually over a longer period of time, shouldn't they be singled out as the problem?  The 'Toulouse' model as a danger to the sport?

Also not sure why the US soccer league adding a franchise in New York is relevent here.  The US soccer people are trying to grow the sport, and adding a team in New York City makes a lot of sense to me.  The NFL adds franchises and no one has a problem.  This is the way pro sport works in America.  I think you are mixing business models here.  Super Rugby added franchises in Melbourne and Perth, and no one called it a problem.  

A salary cap is only a problem where the Unions are not in control. Its up to the Leagues to control their spending - they shouldn't need the Unions to tell them that they are going to destroy their league if they get into this money race.

The issue with Toulon is that their owner just wants to destroy everyone else. Hopefully they let him just burn himself out and not try and match him.

whocares wrote:Toulouse and Clermont are one of the very rare french clubs (including football) to own their stadium. Toulon plays a relative small fee to the city.

Toulon gets a 3m grant/subsidy from the city every year!

They don't outright cheat, they just massage the rules. Like needing a certain number of home based players in the squad. But if someone is hurt you can parachute in an import. What was the name of the french player that got injured and emergency replaced at Toulon by Juan Smith!?

Sin é wrote:

whocares wrote:Toulouse and Clermont are one of the very rare french clubs (including football) to own their stadium. Toulon plays a relative small fee to the city.

Toulon gets a 3m grant/subsidy from the city every year!

Toulon as a city more than made that back by hosting Leinster and Munster last year in the HCup. And both those games came in the same month

My thoughts on this is well known Top14 is a millionares plaything,Toulon after a period of
at least 10 years and billions francs.Has gained success in the last couple of years and JW
was`nt Mr.Magic but certainly helped.
There owners attitude of why spend money developing players via Academies when you
can buy the finished product hardly helps France.
THEY may not have the largest budget but with 25 out of 40 in the squad [2013] and
13 of the 15 run on side non qualified they have more than any other T14 side.
IF the HC is the top NH title and the T!4 Champions wins is taken into account there
returns for cash paid is poor.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

whocares wrote:Toulouse and Clermont are one of the very rare french clubs (including football) to own their stadium. Toulon plays a relative small fee to the city.

Toulon gets a 3m grant/subsidy from the city every year!

Toulon as a city more than made that back by hosting Leinster and Munster last year in the HCup. And both those games came in the same month

Munster played Toulon in Marseille.

And even 10 years ago there were no francs in France. We have had the Euro for over 12.5 years.

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:There is a reason why US soccer is now regarded as the retirement home for a few lucky European players. The standard is rubbish and setting up a franchise in New York is way worse than anything Toulon has tried to accomplish.

New York Cosmos did this back in the 70s with Pele and Beckenbauer etc. It's hardly a new thing.

And it didn't work then either. Men's soccer just isn't rated in the USA.

Yeah, the standard is generally pretty mediocre and it has a lot of competition from other sports.

That's not to say it won't get a foothold in the future. With the popularity of the ladies game it may actually grow from that (rather than the other way around) as well as the influx of foreign stars and the Beckham effect. A lot of kids play soccer in school.

The men's international team is already very competitive even without a strong domestic game.

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:There is a reason why US soccer is now regarded as the retirement home for a few lucky European players. The standard is rubbish and setting up a franchise in New York is way worse than anything Toulon has tried to accomplish.

New York Cosmos did this back in the 70s with Pele and Beckenbauer etc. It's hardly a new thing.

And it didn't work then either. Men's soccer just isn't rated in the USA.

Why do keep referencing football when it's obvious you know very little about it?

Football (or Soccer as they call it) doesn't rival the big 4 US sports in their sporting consciousness but it's far from a niche sport.

There's are very large latin population in the US for a start for who its the no1 sport and the MLS is growing in popularity and standard.
Average crowds across the league are at nearly 19K, above the NBA and NHL (they are indoor TBF) which is a fair bit bigger than the TOP14, AP or PRO12
It's nowhere near the quality of the big major leagues in Europe but it's no pub league, certainly comparable to the SPL for instance.

Lets be honest, Rugby would love to be anywhere near it's levels in the USA!

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Feckless,
Not sure how you can claim the English are blasé about Toulon.  I think most people agree the big money in France is a problem, so it is a French issue, not an issue confined to a single club.  To me, there is a clear need for a pan-European (global, perhaps?) salary cap for club Rugby.  I don't think I am alone, and it doesn't grant one access to the Thatcherite club.  

My question is why Toulon gets singled out.  I started asking half-in-jest, but now it does seem peculiar.  They are not the biggest spender, nor are they the biggest spender historically.  If Toulouse spends more, and has spent more annually over a longer period of time, shouldn't they be singled out as the problem?  The 'Toulouse' model as a danger to the sport?

Also not sure why the US soccer league adding a franchise in New York is relevent here.  The US soccer people are trying to grow the sport, and adding a team in New York City makes a lot of sense to me.  The NFL adds franchises and no one has a problem.  This is the way pro sport works in America.  I think you are mixing business models here.  Super Rugby added franchises in Melbourne and Perth, and no one called it a problem.  

A salary cap is only a problem where the Unions are not in control. Its up to the Leagues to control their spending - they shouldn't need the Unions to tell them that they are going to destroy their league if they get into this money race.

The issue with Toulon is that their owner just wants to destroy everyone else. Hopefully they let him just burn himself out and not try and match him.

Sin é,
Not sure how you connect Union control to salary cap.  I do agree it is up to the leagues to control spending.  In the major US sports leagues all club expenditures, especially player salary, bonus payments, and benefits, are filed with the league offices and monitored independently.  Player compensation is public domain information.  You can look up a player's salary any time you want.  Therefore, the leagues police themselves versus their salary caps.  It is the openness and independent monitoring which is lacking, not Union control.  

I don't see the Toulon owner trying to destroy everything, or anything.  To me, he is playing within the bounds of other clubs in the Top 14.  If there is a problem, it is with the League rules and, probably, enforcement.  It is how the league operates which is the enabler.  He is doing nothing different than other clubs in the league.  To me, he is trying to get to the top faster and, frankly, has been successful doing so.  

Clearly, their rules need to change, and all leagues need to be on the same page.  This is not a Union issue.  Rather it is a league issue.  The Unions obviously have a very strong role to play.  But as independent businesses, the Unions and clubs need a modus operandi.  For the long term health of Rugby globally, there needs to be an overall agrement about all this.  I don't see the unions on the same page any more than I see the clubs and leagues.  Each wants the best for themselves.  This is what needs to change, however low the probability...........

i like Toulon.

for many reasons.

but sticking to the OP, i think there is a strong case to be made that Toulon are the success story of the last 10 years. until i think it was about 2005, they languished in D2 having gone bust a few years earlier. We all know how they have done since then with the arrival of Boudjellal and his very high-profile approach to recruiting big name players who have retired from intl rugby but still are world class players. This strategy has largely been proven very successful.

i understand all the reasons why people dont like, and even despise Toulon. Noisy aggressive businessman-owner, paucity of french eligibly players, JW captain, etc, etc.

But in rugby terms no-one appears to have come as far from 2000 as Toulon.