PEACE IN OUR TIME ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/11053056/Welsh-regions-and-WRU-finally-thrash-out-peace-deal-with-dual-contracts-for-10-players.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/11053056/Welsh-regions-and-WRU-finally-thrash-out-peace-deal-with-dual-contracts-for-10-players.html

Good news it seems to me.

Hopefully Notch - have been heartily fed up with BOTH sides

I'm looking forward to the usual suspects coming online and educating me on why it isn't good news at all   

How many times have we heard that a deal was about to be done? Hopefully it will but I won't hold my breath. Regardless of what the deal is any resolution is good news at this point, just so we can move on. The whole dual contracts is a bit weird but it gets more money to the Regions.

I'm logging out for the night, interesting game down in Salta. Take care of yourself bud

Woooooo and indeed hooooooo.

Great news. Well done everyone and thank fock.

..

Can everyone be positive about this? I'm sure no one got everything they wanted. But as long as it is the least worst option, then it has to be a good place to start.

[quote="Notch"]I'm looking forward to the usual suspects coming online and educating me on why it isn't good news at all  
 [/quote

Surely this can only be good news for the regions and for the W,R,U.

I just merged the topic in international with this one.

i said a few days ago the fact things had gone quiet was a very very good sign  it will be interesting to learn the finer points of this deal in due course,like how many games will these centrally contracted players be allowed to play? how many years is the new deal for? is their an allowance for the expansion of CC players? Gatland wanted more i think. good news though for welsh rugby and the pro12.

Notch wrote:I just merged the topic in international with this one.

Surely there was a reason he put one in both club and international section ? Why would you merge them?

I wonder who will be the "winners" at the end of it all.

Interesting that there seems to be a 4,3,2,1, spread of players on central contracts. Does that rank the teams or indicate that they will look to add players to the team with the lowest amount first?

Overall its an additional £3.3 million a year,
about an additional £800,000 per team per year.
Will this bring them up to being competitive in the League again?

If you consider adding it directly to the salary cap it would make it £4.3M. Which is less than the new AP cap but about the same as the Scottish team budget. It should allow them to do better certainly. But the biggest issue with money (IMO) was the fact they were allowed to get seriously involved in community rugby in their region. This hampers them (again in my opinion) in building the local support, which is what they really need to build resources to compete.

HammerofThunor wrote:If you consider adding it directly to the salary cap it would make it £4.3M. Which is less than the new AP cap but about the same as the Scottish team budget. It should allow them to do better certainly. But the biggest issue with money (IMO) was the fact they were allowed to get seriously involved in community rugby in their region. This hampers them (again in my opinion) in building the local support, which is what they really need to build resources to compete.

Surely all things considered the Blues payroll will be bigger than that figure, which could make them competitive again and possibly highest ranked Welsh team.

This is great news all around but i'm waiting for an official announcement.

Yes, yes, but can we have Warbuton or not?

I'm guessing the £3.3M is split evenly between players, so the Blues would get an extra £1.32M for the Blues and £330k for the Dragons.

If the salary cap is maintained then the Blues would effectively be on £4.8M. If it goes up a little because of more money from Pro12 and Europe then it would be closer to £5M (AP cap)

If (and that's a massive if) there's something to this then it's a fantastic development. 10 players on national contracts is better than one could have dreamed at the start of this debacle and it puts out the right message of unity for Welsh rugby to go forward as a more cohesive unit in future.

They've been saying this every week for the best part of a year

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-peace-deal-last-7664883

latest from Walesonline.

Hold on a second. £3.3M for 10 players. 60/40 split. Does that mean that these 10 players are on £825k a year? That seems...significant. Although does that include international pay? If it does, does it mean they have to play?

Some on another site are thinking the £3.3m includes both the WRU 60%, and the RRW's 40%. So the WRU would be contributing around £1.98m. Think this is in line with the £2m WRU were making available for CCs in January. Combined total would be around £330k per player.

If WRU are contributing all of the £3.3m then the total sum, including the RRWs 40% would be around £5.5m. Around £550k per player.

Considering the WRU want to keep players in Wales the £550k seems the more reasonable.

Yeah, I got the 60/40 the wrong way round. £550k is a lot more reasonable.

Hopefully the two sides really are ready to agree, and that whatever is agreed is for the better of Welsh rugby.

......then we can all focus on arguing about the new super duper cup   

This has to be good news but also asks a lot of questions.

The cash has not been distributed evenly, as Warburton and Anscombe are unattached players, why attach them to the Blues who already have two centrally contracted players, whilst the Dragons only has one?

Are these players now untouchables and guaranteed starting picks? If say Priestland or Tipuric hit a rich vein of form, will Biggar and Warburton be dropped? Davies and Roberts are first choice centres but will Scott now be selected ahead of them?

How has Anscombe earned a central contract ahead of players who proved themselves for Wales in South Africa this summer? He may be a future star, or another Jason Jones Hughes, what message does this send out to young players in Wales?

Why has this not been implemented earlier? With this arrangement in place, would Halfpenny, JD2 and Charteris be playing in Wales next season?

Seagultaf wrote:This has to be good news but also asks a lot of questions.

The cash has not been distributed evenly, as Warburton and Anscombe are unattached players, why attach them to the Blues who already have two centrally contracted players, whilst the Dragons only has one?

Are these players now untouchables and guaranteed starting picks? If say Priestland or Tipuric hit a rich vein of form, will Biggar and Warburton be dropped? Davies and Roberts are first choice centres but will Scott now be selected ahead of them?

How has Anscombe earned a central contract ahead of players who proved themselves for Wales in South Africa this summer? He may be a future star, or another Jason Jones Hughes, what message does this send out to young players in Wales?

Why has this not been implemented earlier? With this arrangement in place, would Halfpenny, JD2 and Charteris be playing in Wales next season?

Seagultaf, I think we have to wait to see what the fine print has to say before we can comment, yes it provisionally looks like good news, if this £3M or is it £2M, is given to the 4 Regions as per who each player plays for Blues 2/5, Scarlets 3/10, Ospreys 1/5 and Dragons 1/10, I for one will not be very happy, especially with the news that the agreement was delayed last week that the WRU wanted the power to move players to other Regions, how many more did they want to move to the Blues, your point about Anscombe is well put, why have somebody like Gethin in there, he will surely retire after the World Cup, why not put one of the young front rowers like Samson Lee or scrum half Rhys Webb, you need to contract up players who will be available for the 2019 WC.

There is no incentive there to develop players if you are just going to split the money by 4. A region should be rewarded for producing international standard players.

The way you need to look at this (this is how the Irish provinces view it) is that you basically have an international class player for when you want them in the big games (and you need to carry extra personnel in your squad to cover for them when they are with the international team, so you shouldn't be out of pocket).

Sin é wrote:There is no incentive there to develop players if you are just going to split the money by 4. A region should be rewarded for producing international standard players.

The way you need to look at this (this is how the Irish provinces view it) is that you basically have an international class player for when you want them in the big games (and you need to carry extra personnel in your squad to cover for them when they are with the international team, so you shouldn't be out of pocket).

This is quite ironic Sin, when you consider that the Os had the vast majority of players in Welsh teams in the last 10 years, remember 13 Os starting against England and another on the bench and we received no more than any other team, and with the news that the WRU wanted to place any more players where they decided, George North to the Blues for definite and AWJ there if rumours within Ospreylia are true, if it was handled evenly it would be OK, but this is the WRU we are talking about.

Before I decide if its good or bad news, I'd need to know what happens with regards the dual contracts I.e. are players told that certain sides would be better to sign for when their contracts expire etc. And also how long the national team get access to players and if there are any game limits imposed etc.

On the face of it ATM, the blues seem to have gained massively on this and the dragons have been shafted. However on the last deal the ospreys were shafted and the dragons gained hugely. I guess someone always comes out better than someone else.

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:There is no incentive there to develop players if you are just going to split the money by 4. A region should be rewarded for producing international standard players.

The way you need to look at this (this is how the Irish provinces view it) is that you basically have an international class player for when you want them in the big games (and you need to carry extra personnel in your squad to cover for them when they are with the international team, so you shouldn't be out of pocket).

This is quite ironic Sin, when you consider that the Os had the vast majority of players in Welsh teams in the last 10 years, remember 13 Os starting against England and another on the bench and we received no more than any other team, and with the news that the WRU wanted to place any more players where they decided, George North to the Blues for definite and AWJ there if rumours within Ospreylia are true, if it was handled evenly it would be OK, but this is the WRU we are talking about.

The way it works with the Provinces, if you don't produce the players, you don't get the players with the central contracts (which I think is fair). The IRFU doesn't interfere though in where player go. They tried that once a long time ago (Simon Easterby was offered a contract by Leinster and the IRFU would only let him go to Ulster). End result was he dug his heels in and went to Wales so presumably they learned their lesson!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Before I decide if its good or bad news, I'd need to know what happens with regards the dual contracts I.e. are players told that certain sides would be better to sign for when their contracts expire etc.  And also how long the national team get access to players and if there are any game limits imposed etc.

On the face of it ATM, the blues seem to have gained massively on this and the dragons have been shafted.  However on the last deal the ospreys were shafted and the dragons gained hugely.  I guess someone always comes out better than someone else.

SS, I'm of the same opinion as you, as I put earlier these things at the moment are just rumours, the one about the WRU wanting to put players where they wanted last week, was the reason the agreement couldn't be signed last week and the AWJ rumours stemmed from that, from what I understand there are some form of game limitations involved in this new treaty, it would be interesting to find out how many games the Gatland ten have played for their Regions in the last few years anyway and there are television rights issues being handed over to RRW after the present deal expires.

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Before I decide if its good or bad news, I'd need to know what happens with regards the dual contracts I.e. are players told that certain sides would be better to sign for when their contracts expire etc.  And also how long the national team get access to players and if there are any game limits imposed etc.

On the face of it ATM, the blues seem to have gained massively on this and the dragons have been shafted.  However on the last deal the ospreys were shafted and the dragons gained hugely.  I guess someone always comes out better than someone else.

SS, I'm of the same opinion as you, as I put earlier these things at the moment are just rumours, the one about the WRU wanting to put players where they wanted last week, was the reason the agreement couldn't be signed last week and the AWJ rumours stemmed from that, from what I understand there are some form of game limitations involved in this new treaty, it would be interesting to find out how many games the Gatland ten have played for their Regions in the last few years anyway  and there are television rights issues being handed over to RRW after the present deal expires.  

Are you sure about the tv rights thing now? Seems the PRO12 management (John Feehan) handle the tv deals now for the PRO12.

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Before I decide if its good or bad news, I'd need to know what happens with regards the dual contracts I.e. are players told that certain sides would be better to sign for when their contracts expire etc.  And also how long the national team get access to players and if there are any game limits imposed etc.

On the face of it ATM, the blues seem to have gained massively on this and the dragons have been shafted.  However on the last deal the ospreys were shafted and the dragons gained hugely.  I guess someone always comes out better than someone else.

SS, I'm of the same opinion as you, as I put earlier these things at the moment are just rumours, the one about the WRU wanting to put players where they wanted last week, was the reason the agreement couldn't be signed last week and the AWJ rumours stemmed from that, from what I understand there are some form of game limitations involved in this new treaty, it would be interesting to find out how many games the Gatland ten have played for their Regions in the last few years anyway  and there are television rights issues being handed over to RRW after the present deal expires.  

Are you sure about the tv rights thing now? Seems the PRO12 management (John Feehan) handle the tv deals now for the PRO12.

I just knew you'd bite at that one, as I said in all my utterances they are all rumours, this one is slightly more informed than the others, the rights for the next deal is being handed by the WRU to RRW.

The 'placing' players issue has been there since Phillips was advised to leave the Scarlets for the Blues tbh. Raised its head again with them offering to buy North and put him there. So I guess there's a bit of history regarding players being shifted there as per union designs. Until the details are bashed out, I'll be cautious about this deal. I can't see the union wanting to pay 5 players decent money but have them sat in the euro kids league.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The 'placing' players issue has been there since Phillips was advised to leave the Scarlets for the Blues tbh.  Raised its head again with them offering to buy North and put him there.  So I guess there's a bit of history regarding players being shifted there as per union designs.  Until the details are bashed out, I'll be cautious about this deal.  I can't see the union wanting to pay 5 players decent money but have them sat in the euro kids league.

Just curious, why was Phillips advised to leave the Scarlets. Surely the WRU were happy Phillips was there with Stephen Jones (which would be regarded as an ideal scenario with the Irish Provinces to have your halfbacks playing together at club level)!

Lots of Irish players are advised to move - i.e., Sean Cronin was told he would be better off with Leinster than with Connacht to play Heineken Cup rugby - that is the main stipulation - they need to be playing Heineken Cup rugby to get to play international, but its up to them to leave.

When Tommy Bowe came back from the Ospreys - he got a central contract and had offers from Ulster, Munster & Leinster. He choose to go back to Ulster.

wayne wrote:
I just knew you'd bite at that one, as I said in all my utterances they are all rumours, this one is slightly more informed than the others, the rights for the next deal is being handed by the WRU to RRW.

Well that is going to be a disaster for RRW (bearing in mind that they have absolutely no experience of doing it) and the PRO12 have flogged off lots of games already. Don't BBC Wales have a deal anyway for the next couple of years signed already?

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:
I just knew you'd bite at that one, as I said in all my utterances they are all rumours, this one is slightly more informed than the others, the rights for the next deal is being handed by the WRU to RRW.

Well that is going to be a disaster for RRW (bearing in mind that they have absolutely no experience of doing it) and the PRO12 have flogged off lots of games already. Don't BBC Wales have a deal anyway for the next couple of years signed already?

You really need to read the sentence properly, the Unions had the rights to this round of TV rights, they gave the rights to JF and company, for the NEXT deal the WRU have reputedly given the rights to the WELSH matches to RRW, and considering the paltry amounts that JF and company negotiated, especially for the Irish rights for the last 2 rounds of TV deals the better it will be.

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:
I just knew you'd bite at that one, as I said in all my utterances they are all rumours, this one is slightly more informed than the others, the rights for the next deal is being handed by the WRU to RRW.

Well that is going to be a disaster for RRW (bearing in mind that they have absolutely no experience of doing it) and the PRO12 have flogged off lots of games already. Don't BBC Wales have a deal anyway for the next couple of years signed already?

You really need to read the sentence properly, the Unions had the rights to this round of TV rights, they gave the rights to JF and company, for the NEXT deal the WRU have reputedly given the rights to the WELSH matches to RRW, and considering the paltry amounts that JF and company negotiated, especially for the Irish rights for the last 2 rounds of TV deals the better it will be.    

Get your facts right before you blame the Irish for selling off the tv rights cheaply. John Feehan only took over running the Pro12 about 2 years ago. Up to that the PRO12 was based and run from Edinburgh. Presumably it was moved to Dublin so as to be eligible for the Sporting Tax Exemption (which is worth a heck of a lot more than any measly money that the Welsh regions will produce), not to mention the title sponsors (Magners & Rabo) were Irish companies.

Edit: who gets the proceeds of the Sky tv Welsh games?

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:
I just knew you'd bite at that one, as I said in all my utterances they are all rumours, this one is slightly more informed than the others, the rights for the next deal is being handed by the WRU to RRW.

Well that is going to be a disaster for RRW (bearing in mind that they have absolutely no experience of doing it) and the PRO12 have flogged off lots of games already. Don't BBC Wales have a deal anyway for the next couple of years signed already?

You really need to read the sentence properly, the Unions had the rights to this round of TV rights, they gave the rights to JF and company, for the NEXT deal the WRU have reputedly given the rights to the WELSH matches to RRW, and considering the paltry amounts that JF and company negotiated, especially for the Irish rights for the last 2 rounds of TV deals the better it will be.    

Get your facts right before you blame the Irish for selling off the tv rights cheaply. John Feehan only took over running the Pro12 about 2 years ago. Up to that the PRO12 was based and run from Edinburgh. Presumably it was moved to Dublin so as to be eligible for the Sporting Tax Exemption (which is worth a heck of a lot more than any measly money that the Welsh regions will produce), not to mention the title sponsors (Magners & Rabo) were Irish companies.

Edit: who gets the proceeds of the Sky tv Welsh games?

Why not address the real issue how much has JF negotiated for free to air Welsh tv compared to Irish tv, and £5M FROM Sky when the PRL can negotiate much larger amounts out of BT,that surely is a ringing endorsement of JF and company

Well, your beloved BT were asked to tender and they turned the offer down. Obviously they don't think that much of Welsh rugby that they would be bothered putting it on tv.

Sin é wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The 'placing' players issue has been there since Phillips was advised to leave the Scarlets for the Blues tbh.  Raised its head again with them offering to buy North and put him there.  So I guess there's a bit of history regarding players being shifted there as per union designs.  Until the details are bashed out, I'll be cautious about this deal.  I can't see the union wanting to pay 5 players decent money but have them sat in the euro kids league.

Just curious, why was Phillips advised to leave the Scarlets. Surely the WRU were happy Phillips was there with Stephen Jones (which would be regarded as an ideal scenario with the Irish Provinces to have your halfbacks playing together at club level)!

Lots of Irish players are advised to move - i.e., Sean Cronin was told he would be better off with Leinster than with Connacht to play Heineken Cup rugby - that is the main stipulation - they need to be playing Heineken Cup rugby to get to play international, but its up to them to leave.

When Tommy Bowe came back from the Ospreys - he got a central contract and had offers from Ulster, Munster & Leinster. He choose to go back to Ulster.

Dwayne Peel was Welsh & Scarlets first choice at that time.

As for HEC rugby, that is what I was thinking, why hire five players and leave them in lower level competitions?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The 'placing' players issue has been there since Phillips was advised to leave the Scarlets for the Blues tbh.  Raised its head again with them offering to buy North and put him there.  So I guess there's a bit of history regarding players being shifted there as per union designs.  Until the details are bashed out, I'll be cautious about this deal.  I can't see the union wanting to pay 5 players decent money but have them sat in the euro kids league.

Just curious, why was Phillips advised to leave the Scarlets. Surely the WRU were happy Phillips was there with Stephen Jones (which would be regarded as an ideal scenario with the Irish Provinces to have your halfbacks playing together at club level)!

Lots of Irish players are advised to move - i.e., Sean Cronin was told he would be better off with Leinster than with Connacht to play Heineken Cup rugby - that is the main stipulation - they need to be playing Heineken Cup rugby to get to play international, but its up to them to leave.

When Tommy Bowe came back from the Ospreys - he got a central contract and had offers from Ulster, Munster & Leinster. He choose to go back to Ulster.

Dwayne Peel was Welsh & Scarlets first choice at that time.  

As for HEC rugby, that is what I was thinking, why hire five players and leave them in lower level competitions?

Well, you can blame that problem on the eagerness of the Welsh Regions to jump into bed with the PRL and cede Euro places to them. If they stuck with the Pro12 Unions, there might still be 3 Welsh teams in the competition.

It might seem like we (Dragons) shouldn't get as much money, but then again we can't be accused anymore of not producing talent (particularly looking at U18 and 20 squads recently). Gatland isn't really too bothered of what happens east of Cardiff anyway. Whilst we generally finish bottom Welsh region, we always have players who have warranted a look in with the Welsh squad at least and we don't really get that.

It's no coincidence that when Wales were playing their best stuff around RWC 11, there were more Dragons involved in the squad

Stalemate in our time?

Risca Rev wrote:It might seem like we (Dragons) shouldn't get as much money, but then again we can't be accused anymore of not producing talent (particularly looking at U18 and 20 squads recently). Gatland isn't really too bothered of what happens east of Cardiff anyway. Whilst we generally finish bottom Welsh region, we always have players who have warranted a look in with the Welsh squad at least and we don't really get that.

It's no coincidence that when Wales were playing their best stuff around RWC 11, there were more Dragons involved in the squad

Theres only 1 Dragon in the Wales U18 squad isn't there? Keegan.

This one there's two, but I wasn't on about the one now (wasn't even aware of it, to be honest). I was more on about people like Angus etc.