606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[madmaccas]

Apparently David Sole, Andy Nicol, Scott Hastings, Gavin Hastings and Finlay Calder have all just held press conf on behalf of the No campaign at Murrayfield.

Good stuff

[Sin é]

A SQUAD of Scottish rugby legends replicated the national side’s iconic 1990 march on to the Murrayfield turf as they took part in an anti-independence campaign event today.

David Sole, who captained Scotland’s Grand Slam winning side in 1990, was part of the all-star No campaign line-up that included Scott and Gavin Hastings and Finlay Calder, who played in the same team.

Sole, speaking at Murrayfield today, said the 1990 win over England was a “defining moment in Scottish history” and that some of the members had wanted to show a “gesture of support” at the scene of their famous Grand Slam triumph.

Former Scottish rugby international Andy Nicol said some of the players had got involved in the referendum because of what he said was Alex Salmond’s suggestion that patriotic Scots would vote Yes next week, with references the First Minister made to “Team Scotland”.

He said: “He crossed the line with the insinuation that you can only be a patriotic Scot by voting Yes. Alex Salmond was very divisive with what he said about Team Scotland.”

Nicol also suggested a Yes vote could mean a change to the British and Irish Lions as he claimed the future of the test side was one of the “many unknowns” of the SNP’s plans for independence.

The former Scotland Scrum-half said that the Lions teams, which is made up of players from the UK and Ireland and tours the Southern Hemisphere every four years, was the “epitome” of Better Together”.

No its not Andy. The Lions usually lose.

http://www.scotsman.com/mobile/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-rugby-legends-backing-no-1-3539854

As for being part of the B+I Lions - he does know that a precedent has been set with players from the Republic of Ireland?

[fa0019]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

[madmaccas]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

[fa0019]

Nice little incite of an independent Scotland by former SNP deputy and one of the major campaign drivers Jim Sillars.

Will the last person in Scotland please switch off the lights....

The No camp fear mongering has had an effect on me – instead of retiring on 19th. September, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.

The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor, poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.

BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be. If it wants into the ‘monster fields’ in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power – us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors. If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not.

As for the Bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue. You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure.

As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved. It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the Chief Executive what his costings are on his proposed moves.

As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ‘partners’ or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own goal.

What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out.

[fa0019]

What is great about this quote is that

A) Scotland has no banks. They can't break up a bank which is listed and owned by a foreign country.

RBS - Stated it will become British.
Lloyds HBOS - Stated it will become British
Clydesdale - Stated it will be listed in England (AUS owned).

So which bank is going to be split by your NWO Jim?

Then there is BP. yeah someone tried that 50 years ago. Their name was Cuba. Which company will want to work with Scotland then... sure they have Oil but so do many other countries so make things difficult and they will simply cut their losses. Want to take it out yourself... be my guest if you can fit the bill.

As for Cameron being English.... Da was born in Scotland from a long line of Scots. Mother is Welsh I think.

If there were any other companies sitting on the fence I think they will up sticks and let the SNP know they will join everyone else in leaving too. Its Loco.

[Sin é]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Really?

“People say ‘what’s the greatest honour you had as a rugby player?’ Being captain of the British Lions. That’s bigger than being captain of Scotland, so you know what I’m saying.”

He continues:

“I am totally against independence and I’ve already been quoted on that. No, I think that would be the worst possible thing for us. But you understand where I’m coming from, because it’s all about exposure to the bigger picture, and Scotland is not the bigger picture. It never will be. We will not be able to do it amongst ourselves – we need to see the global picture in front us and be part of that picture, and, in my opinion, we will never be part of that were we to be an independent nation – which, by the way, we won’t be. You’ve got an opportunity to represent your country in hockey, in rugby, in football and loads of other team sports, and the individuals will always be Scottish the same way as Andy Murray is and Chris Hoy is.

[fa0019]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Really?

[quote)

So you think it's acceptable that people re being trashed simply for having an opinion on how they will vote?

[Sin é]

[quote="fa0019"]What is great about this quote is that

A) Scotland has no banks. They can't break up a bank which is listed and owned by a foreign country.

RBS - Stated it will become British.
Lloyds HBOS - Stated it will become British
Clydesdale - Stated it will be listed in England (AUS owned).

So which bank is going to be split by your NWO Jim?

It doesn't need to be split. They can be based in England, backed by the Bank of England (which is why they want to move there for easy finances).

“As part of such contingency planning, R.B.S. believes that it would be necessary to re-domicile the bank’s holding company and its primary rated operating entity (the Royal Bank of Scotland plc) to England,” the bank said in a news release on Thursday. “In the event of a ‘yes’ vote, the decision to re-domicile should have no impact on everyday banking services used by our customers throughout the British Isles.”

Then there is BP. yeah someone tried that 50 years ago. Their name was Cuba. Which company will want to work with Scotland then... sure they have Oil but so do many other countries so make things difficult and they will simply cut their losses. Want to take it out yourself... be my guest if you can fit the bill.

As for Cameron being English.... Da was born in Scotland from a long line of Scots. Mother is Welsh I think.

If there were any other companies sitting on the fence I think they will up sticks and let the SNP know they will join everyone else in leaving too. Its Loco.

BP - Cuba really? The fact that BP's biggest business is in the US has nothing got to do with that then? I'm sure the BP Swedish Chairman or BP's American CEO will care too much about who they do business with for North Sea Oil - they will do what will keep profits up (and their shareholders happy).

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

A SQUAD of Scottish rugby legends replicated the national side’s iconic 1990 march on to the Murrayfield turf as they took part in an anti-independence campaign event today.

David Sole, who captained Scotland’s Grand Slam winning side in 1990, was part of the all-star No campaign line-up that included Scott and Gavin Hastings and Finlay Calder, who played in the same team.

Sole, speaking at Murrayfield today, said the 1990 win over England was a “defining moment in Scottish history” and that some of the members had wanted to show a “gesture of support” at the scene of their famous Grand Slam triumph.

Former Scottish rugby international Andy Nicol said some of the players had got involved in the referendum because of what he said was Alex Salmond’s suggestion that patriotic Scots would vote Yes next week, with references the First Minister made to “Team Scotland”.

He said: “He crossed the line with the insinuation that you can only be a patriotic Scot by voting Yes. Alex Salmond was very divisive with what he said about Team Scotland.”

Nicol also suggested a Yes vote could mean a change to the British and Irish Lions as he claimed the future of the test side was one of the “many unknowns” of the SNP’s plans for independence.

The former Scotland Scrum-half said that the Lions teams, which is made up of players from the UK and Ireland and tours the Southern Hemisphere every four years, was the “epitome” of Better Together”.

No its not Andy. The Lions usually lose.

http://www.scotsman.com/mobile/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-rugby-legends-backing-no-1-3539854

As for being part of the B+I Lions - he does know that a precedent has been set with players from the Republic of Ireland?

Embarrassingly awkward mistake!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks? Do they feel representative in some sense? Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make. In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh. The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

[Sin é]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Really?

So you think it's acceptable that people re being trashed simply for having an opinion on how they will vote?

That is the norm nowadays with social media. I don't approve of it happening, but its hard not to understand why they do - they should have stayed quiet because their arguments for staying in the Union are insulting to every Scottish person.

I should add that the 2 most recent Irish Lions captains wouldn't suggest that captaining the Lions was a bigger thing than captaining their country. I suspect that Martin Johnson would say the same to captaining England.

[fa0019]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks?  Do they feel representative in some sense?  Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make.  In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh.  The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

Ally McCoist public school yep... Heard it here first.

[fa0019]

What is great about this quote is that

A) Scotland has no banks. They can't break up a bank which is listed and owned by a foreign country.

RBS - Stated it will become British.
Lloyds HBOS - Stated it will become British
Clydesdale - Stated it will be listed in England (AUS owned).

So which bank is going to be split by your NWO Jim?

It doesn't need to be split. They can be based in England, backed by the Bank of England (which is why they want to move there for easy finances).

“As part of such contingency planning, R.B.S. believes that it would be necessary to re-domicile the bank’s holding company and its primary rated operating entity (the Royal Bank of Scotland plc) to England,” the bank said in a news release on Thursday. “In the event of a ‘yes’ vote, the decision to re-domicile should have no impact on everyday banking services used by our customers throughout the British Isles.”

Then there is BP. yeah someone tried that 50 years ago. Their name was Cuba. Which company will want to work with Scotland then... sure they have Oil but so do many other countries so make things difficult and they will simply cut their losses. Want to take it out yourself... be my guest if you can fit the bill.

As for Cameron being English.... Da was born in Scotland from a long line of Scots. Mother is Welsh I think.

If there were any other companies sitting on the fence I think they will up sticks and let the SNP know they will join everyone else in leaving too. Its Loco.

BP - Cuba really? The fact that BP's biggest business is in the US has nothing got to do with that then?  I'm sure the BP Swedish Chairman or BP's American CEO will care too much about who they do business with for North Sea Oil - they will do what will keep profits up (and their shareholders happy).

My comment was that Jim said he will break up the banks... But given every bank has pledged to leave Scotland it doesn't mean that much now does it. You can't force a foreign bank to break up.

The Cuba comment was due to Cuba nationalising its oil industry after regime change with Castro. The main cause of the embargo which remains to this day. Bp wasn't involved but it's a crazy idea which would attract zero investors and ward off all current ones.

[Captain_Sensible]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks?  Do they feel representative in some sense?  Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make.  In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh.  The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

John Rutherford was private school educated? Really? Who gives a good god damn where they went to school? They're Scots who care about their country, that's all that matters. That remark probably reveals more about your prejudices than theirs. They're no different from the campaign volunteers knocking on doors, just doing what they think is right.

[ChequeredJersey]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks?  Do they feel representative in some sense?  Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make.  In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh.  The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

Same applies to anyone in any position of "celebrity" making the opposite argument too. I think they should be free to express their opinion publicly but should expect debate from opposition. Not abuse

[Feckless Rogue]

Seems like most Scots here and most Scottish rugby players are against independence. I remember having a Scottish mate who wouldn't even look at a rugby match, saying it was an upper class sport, despite me trying to tell him it was brilliant. Would most pro independence people be more "working class".

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks?  Do they feel representative in some sense?  Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make.  In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh.  The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

Ally McCoist public school yep... Heard it here first.

Was he a rugby player? Haven't heard of him, sorry

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Its loco how these guys are being trashed for simply believing in their country. Its the same with the football players who recently did the same.

Yep, they're being called traitors etc on Twitter and the Scotsman comments. All this by people who've never done a thing for their country. Sole et al have hung their bodies out to dry representing Scotland and they are MORE than entitled to their opinion.

Of course they are, but what entitles them to use their former positions to attempt to influence folks?  Do they feel representative in some sense?  Public-school educated to a man, that would be a hard argument to make.  In reality, they are probably only preaching to the converted, so I suspect that it hardly matters tbh.  The abuse they receive is simply pathetic

John Rutherford was private school educated? Really? Who gives a good god damn where they went to school? They're Scots who care about their country, that's all that matters. That remark probably reveals more about your prejudices than theirs. They're no different from the campaign volunteers knocking on doors, just doing what they think is right.

Clearly not, but then he wasn't leading the press conference from the names listed above - so what's your point?  You are naive if you imagine that voting intentions don't frequently follow 'class' or 'upbringing', and that the referendum is any different.   The remark reveals nothing about anyone's prejudices, mainly cos you know nothing about my background

[funnyExiledScot]

I don't really have any issue with celebrities from any walk of life expressing an opinion, no more or less than any other person. Where I draw the line is when celebrities purport to speak on matters on which they have little understanding, and try to pass off amateur views as expert, based solely on celebrity status.

On the matter of whether No supporters are less Scottish or patriotic then frankly Sole and co are as qualified as the next Scot to blow that nonsense out of the water. There is clearly fierce patriotism on both sides, and neither side should seek to play that card in my view. The only reason to do so would be to compensate for deficiencies in more substantive areas of the debate.

[Notch]

Apparently David Sole, Andy Nicol, Scott Hastings, Gavin Hastings and Finlay Calder have all just held press conf on behalf of the No campaign at Murrayfield.

Good stuff

Thats really disappointing to hear that, that ex-rugby players are getting involved in this especially since it was held at Murrayfield. Scottish Rugby should not be taking sides and more generally sport and politics should not mix. Someone in the SRU ok'd that. What are they thinking?

I'm especially disgusted to see Gavin Hastings bringing the Lions into it, which doesn't really indicate he sees it as a partnership of two independent nations does it? By presenting the Lions as a symbol of the Union he's showing, for me, a huge amount of disrespect towards all the Irishmen who represented the Lions. The Lions is not about the Union. The Lions is not about Britain alone. It's an apolitical partnership of four rugby unions that already crosses borders in that it involves players from two completely separate independent nations! A Scotsman could just as easily be Captain of the Lions after independence as before. I'm fairly appalled by his comments to be honest, and I've lost a lot of respect for him.

[Notch]

The Lions is a bigger and better thing than a vehicle for petty political points scoring and as a rugby fan, tbh, thats upset me and made me very angry reading that.

[SecretFly]

For me, the irritating thing would be that Hastings chose to articulate his views on Independence by identifying his captaincy of the 'British Lions' as his sporting highpoint.

So not only does he disappoint as a notable rugby man who still can't get the title correct!!!, he also totally ignores the lack of relevancy in using the Lions as a symbol of why Scotland should stay in a Union.  The Lions works without that requirement to be a member of the Union - he knows that fact but he disabuses that truth so casually simply to construct the false perception that the Lions represents Union.  

The Lions is not Team UK.  It is offensive to me that it continues to be lazily represented as such in some circles.

Hastings is entitled to his views on the referendum, and is entitled to share them publically.  Everyone who votes is a political being with the rights to make their views on political issues public if they so wish.... but don't insult the pan-national identity of the Lions to project an untruth about its makeup.

[Notch]

but don't insult the pan-national identity of the Lions to project an untruth about its makeup.

Preach.

Talking about his captaincy of the Lions and how that represents the 'Best of British' and the best of the Union rather ignores that two out of the last three Lions Captains are not, in fact, British citizens at all and have no association with that country. Rather they are citizens of a country which is already completely independent of Britain.

Of course, the thing about the Lions- and this is far and away the most important point for me- is no-one has previously mentioned the citizenship status of O'Driscoll or O'Connell as national politics do not come into it for pretty much 100% of Lions fans. Citizenship is in fact completely irrelevant to what the Lions embodies. Political history and national rivalries are left at the door. Politics and the Lions are two things which don't mix at all and that is EXACTLY why it works.

For a former Lions captain to try and make the Lions about politics and nationalism just leaves such a sour taste in the mouth. It really is absolutely appalling. Absolutely and utterly appalling. The Lions is above that.

[beshocked]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

[GLove39]

Apparently David Sole, Andy Nicol, Scott Hastings, Gavin Hastings and Finlay Calder have all just held press conf on behalf of the No campaign at Murrayfield.

Good stuff

Thats really disappointing to hear that, that ex-rugby players are getting involved in this especially since it was held at Murrayfield. Scottish Rugby should not be taking sides and more generally sport and politics should not mix. Someone in the SRU ok'd that. What are they thinking?

Not sure it was actually at Murrayfield. All the pics I've seen they're not in the stadium or the grounds, rather they're outside the fence on the pavement outside. Perhaps somewhat cheekily trying to create the impression that their political viewpoint is backed by the SRU. Whom I can't imagine the would risk alienating fans by backing one side or another.

[Notch]

[SecretFly]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

Well Gavin certainly didn't


Beshocked...simply Ireland are part of the deal with the Lions... and when so, honour so by saying so.  That's mutual respect shown, that's common courtesy.  You want to ignore us as regards the Lions - well go ahead and we'll just leave the show to you.  Even just call it The Lions if the Irish bit sticks in your throat - I don't mind 'the Lions'. But if we're there, admit we're there.  That's all I want from the deal.  Got that?  

And as stated, Hastings knows you don't have to be part of the Union to be a Lion anyway.... his other gaff.  Back to you and your continued annoyance at people who don't feel British (the Scottish who want Independence) and people who aren't British (the Southern Irish)

[Sin é]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

The funny thing about this is that the 'British' Lions is registered (and based) in the Republic of Ireland Hastings obviously can't be taken seriously as he obviously hasn't a clue about what he is talking about.

Ireland is very relevant in this case because Ireland opted out of the same union and lived to tell the tale.

[wrfc1980]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

[Notch]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

Would that be Northern Irish brothers like me, then. Being that I'm Northern Irish. I'm very disappointed that I've conveniently forgot about myself. I'll have to give myself a slap on the wrist for that. I'm as British as you are. I'm also as Irish as anyone else. I'm a dual national and I understand that the only way the Lions can possibly work is if nationality is irrelevant. Same way nationality is irrelevant to the Ireland team. Both teams are above that kind of nationalistic politics.

I'm not making this about nationality, I'm furious and disgusted that Gavin Hastings is trying to do that. I'm very aware that this is NOT the topic of the thread and the last thing I wish to do is hijack it. But I'm very disappointed that a team that embraces and unites two very distinct nationalities is being used as a vehicle for cheap, nationalistic political points scoring in a referendum debate where it truly has little to no relevance.

[SecretFly]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

Let me educate you a little then.

When Sin é says 'Ireland' then yes, he's probably talking about the 'Republic'.  That is to say, he'd be accurately, in International Law, calling his country by its rightful name as it exist in our Constitution.  That is further to say that 'Ireland' is the official title of that which you'd describe as the 'Republic of Ireland'  

Now whilst the 'Republic of Ireland' is obviously more useful in trying to describe the part Sin is refering to, he doesn't need to refer to it that way, not obliged to refer to it that way.  Officially, we're Ireland not the Republic of Ireland.

Now to the 'CHIP'.  Yes...the chip is real... thus the whole point of the Hastings gaff.  You want to ignore our presence in the Lions, you want to white-wash it as somehow 'British', you want to say the Lions is a combined British side under a banner of Union.............. then of course you'll get a chip. I'm as proud of what I am as I'm sure you are proud of what you are - and I'm not British; and the term British doesn't describe me or include me any more than the 'Republic' includes our Northern Irish Brothers.

And they are our Brothers - and we fight as one, and we're a pretty beligerent bunch the two of us when we get going (Best and his mates ) - and we know where we stand as a sport.  Four Provinces fighting tough against each other all year - joined together at International to fight and bleed for each other.

I guess we're an example that you don't actually need a political Union to fight under one banner - we're Irish - all of us, north and south.  So like I say, it's a shot in the foot for Gavin to compare Lions duty with Unionsim.

[Sin é]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

In what way is it glossed over? The Troubles (and issues of about identity) in Northern Ireland has hardly being ignored by anyone in these islands, especially those on the island of Ireland.

Ireland's Call was commissioned especially to recognise (and be inclusive) of those players from Northern Ireland who may consider themselves to be British.

If the team wasn't an All Ireland team, Ireland's Call would not be played.

I would also be very proud to stand for an Northern Ireland anthem if they every get to the stage that they have an agreed anthem and flag for Northern Ireland.

[Feckless Rogue]

[SecretFly]

A police State innit! And all because poor Murray didn't win Wimbledon. It's only sport people! Get your priorities right...and release that poor eejit.

[Gibson]

I will say this. Ireland fought for 800 years to be rid of their Royalist, Unionist, masters. Still working on it now. We suffered near genocide and fought back. Ye lot get to vote for free.

If ye don't take this chance now, be it forever or yer sad hypocritical hids.

It will be tough, there will be pain and sacrifice. It will take years to settle and grow, of course it will. Look at the major fockups we have been through to grow as a nation.  But Freedom and that right to be ruled by local dickhids of your own kind, always comes at a price. So stop focking moaning and deliberating about it. Do it for your kids and grandkids,  if not for your maddening,  pontificating, selves.

Vote YES.

Believe.

And always remember,  in the end,  just like England, we are all beholden to Mother Deutchland.

Dont tell the English that FFS. They still think they have an Empire and Won the War. Bless.

[Gibson]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

In what way is it glossed over? The Troubles (and issues of about identity) in Northern Ireland has hardly being ignored by anyone in these islands, especially those on the island of Ireland.

Ireland's Call was commissioned especially to recognise (and be inclusive) of those players from Northern Ireland who may consider themselves to be British.

If the team wasn't an All Ireland team, Ireland's Call would not be played.

I would also be very proud to stand for an Northern Ireland anthem if they every get to the stage that they have an agreed anthem and flag for Northern Ireland.

For feics sake Sin, dont get that lot started on Flegs. They are still in the 17th Century in that respect. Orangemen marching in Edinburgh to protect their false Union, shows what they are really about. Its laughable really.  But that particular war is over.

We just don't gloat about it. We know.

God Bless De Rev Ian Paisley.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Anyone wanting to escape the constant establishment propaganda on this should have a look at my good friend's (Ray McRobbie) blog (Still Raining, Still Dreaming)- very funny too - esp re Charlatan Hero Murphy - who is probably mentally ill tbh.

[Notch]

Sin e I presume when you say 'Ireland' you are talking about the republic. Its getting glossed over but there's plenty in northern Ireland that consider themselves British. As stated earlier the Irish do seem to get a chip on their shoulder when it comes to discussions about the lions and conveniently forget about their northern Irish brothers who don't get recognition when playing at home in Ireland ( in regards to anthems etc)

In what way is it glossed over? The Troubles (and issues of about identity) in Northern Ireland has hardly being ignored by anyone in these islands, especially those on the island of Ireland.

Ireland's Call was commissioned especially to recognise (and be inclusive) of those players from Northern Ireland who may consider themselves to be British.

If the team wasn't an All Ireland team, Ireland's Call would not be played.

I would also be very proud to stand for an Northern Ireland anthem if they every get to the stage that they have an agreed anthem and flag for Northern Ireland.

For feics sake Sin, dont get that lot started on Flegs. They are still in the 17th Century in that respect. Orangemen marching in Edinburgh to protect their false Union, shows what they are really about. Its laughable really.  But that particular war is over.

We just don't gloat about it. We know.

God Bless De Rev Ian Paisley.

Ah he's right though Gibson. If we had an anthem we could agree on it would be fair enough for it to be played alongside Irelands Call and Amhran na bhFiann. We don't have an anthem to be played or a flag to be flown. They can't agree on one- or anything else for that matter.

[aucklandlaurie]

I dont pretend to understand what this thread is about, you guys in Great Britain live in such a confusing amalgamation of countries.

But if Scotland goes independent from England, surely then they would have to put together an Air Force, a navy etc? but also International trade agreements etc?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Yeah thats right - just like you have! So what's your point exactly ?

[SecretFly]

I dont pretend to understand what this thread is about, you guys in Great Britain live in such a confusing amalgamation of countries.

But if Scotland goes independent from  England, surely then they would have to put together an Air Force, a navy etc? but also International trade agreements etc?

Yes...kinda like New Zealand............... with oil and not nearly so isolated in terms of shipping and air trade.

[quinsforever]

aucklandlaurie's sensible point is that there would have to be a lot of duplication, compared to what exists now. obviously thats not a reason not to do it. but lets not pretend there are no costs nor risks.

what i would love to know is how the current 50:50 vote split breaks down in terms of contribution to or receipt from scottish government taxes.

[Feckless Rogue]

So I've started reading up on all this. And I have to say I can see why the yes side has been progressing in the polls. All the arguments for yes I've read have been so optimistic passionate and inspiring. (Irvine Welsh has a few good ones). And I really haven't read one passionate, coherent argument for keeping this union. Just scared/angry old men predicting doom if things aren't left the way they are.

The English dealt with it when the Americans left them, they dealt with it when the Irish left them, they dealt with it when the Indians left them. In fact I'd say England is a better country today than it has ever been despite it losing it's dominance over all these nations. It's time to let the empire go and let the Scots, for better or for worse, have a government that the majority of Scots want. They could be great, they could be sh!t, but it should be up to them. England will be ok either way.

You wouldn't see a single union jack today at an England soccer or rugby game. It's flag of st george all the way. Maybe the union has run it's course because I just haven't heard a heartfelt coherent speech about why it should be kept, from anyone. Just numbers and figures and dire predictions. Nothing from the heart.

The thing is Ireland and England have great relations now despite being separate political entities. They have a free travel agreements, huge trade to the benefit of both, and they're nearly always together on the same side in any EU debates, because they have so much in common. But we have the the honour of being feiced over by w@nkers in Dublin instead of being feiced over by w@nkers in London, which we prefer, and we can't blame the English for our problems. Everybody wins. What's so wrong Scotland doing the same?

[aucklandlaurie]

Yeah thats right - just like you have!   So what's your point exactly ?

Points actually.

To set up the infrastucture of Air, Land and Sea defences is not going to come cheap if you have to set up from nothing.

But in terms of International Trade agreements, if you were smart you wouldnt go in with the EU, stay separate, then you free to seek trade deals with the US, Asia, middle East the Aussies even us. Once the UK went with the EU they dropped trading with a number of us  Commonwealth countries.

But then again I dont really understand why or what you guys are trying to do, probably because I come from a small independent country miles away from anyone else but the Aussies and Pacific Islands.

It must be interesting though because its not like a General election, its not like you can come back in a couple of years time and reverse the vote if it turns out to be a bad idea, I presume its one of those things requires something like 66 or 70% support to effect a change?

[jimbopip]

Lads, I've stayed out of this thread for a while mainly because as an exile I don't have a vote (not that that has stopped Asbo doing his best to enlighten the lost and raise the intellectual content) but I will try once more to put in my tuppence worth.
Most economists agree that after the initial "teething troubles" an independent Scotland would be neither significantly richer nor poorer .
It's not about the economy. An independent Scotland would be just another small, northern European state. Most likely not significantly richer than most nor poorer than most. We would be starting from a better base than Eire and they're not expressing any desire to go back to rule by London.

It will be tough, there will be pain and sacrifice. It will take years to settle and grow, of course it will. Look at the major fockups we have been through to grow as a nation.  But Freedom and that right to be ruled by local dickhids of your own kind, always comes at a price. So stop focking moaning and deliberating about it. Do it for your kids and grandkids,  if not for your maddening,  pontificating, selves.

Vote YES.

As ever Gibbo has the poetry of it.
We all know that in job interviews/ first dates people make their minds up in the first ten seconds then spend forty minutes looking for evidence to support that decision and I honestly think a lot of this thread has been doing that.
If you believe that the Scottish are a nation with their own separate, shared cultural identity and beliefs, if you believe that Scotland has not been accorded equal partner status in the UK, if you believe that the Scottish people should control their own destiny then there is only one choice.
It's not about the money.
It's about who you believe you are.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Setting up an iScotland military capability won't come cheaply, laurie, but there's several points to make in reply:
1. iScotland intends to spend more on conventional military forces than its current share of UK military (it will save considerably from not having Trident, some of which will fund this increase on the conventional side)
2. iScotland will be able to design a military that is actually suited to its needs, prob with an emphasis on naval (massive coastline) and air force
3. recent Westminster government spending cuts have trashed the UK's military capability, particularly in Scotland, so we'd hopefully see a reversal of that.

In terms of intl trade, Scotland is fairly europhile, much more so than England, where UKIP is a massive presence, so joining the EU (one way or another) is a cert

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Laurie,
we are fed up of being lied to by a bunch of privately educated, corrupt tw*ts in London who we do not vote for.    These a -holes have the temerity to come up here and 'inform' us to vote No.    Other political 'manoeuvres' are also risible.   I mean who in New Labour thought it was a good idea to send John 'Fatso' Prescott up here to lecture us - he was totally humiliated by his audience but then nothing unusual there in that as he is an unbelievably stupid individual.    

Then there is the constant drip of lies and negative spin from the established media (the BBC are by far the worst liars /negative spinners here).with 1 single exception (The Sunday Herald a Scottish broadsheet).   That and B-list so called celebrities with their nauseating pleas for us to stay with the Imperialist establishment.

I will give you another reason - The House of Lords - why should we pay for this ?   I know the stampede of so called socialists (including Johns Reid and Prescott) after Blair/Browns' woeful govts., into the most lucrative boys club in the world that contains Church of England Bishops ffs !!!   A non democratic disgrace.

The lunatics in London also curse us here in the West of Scotland with their Trident missiles and submarines - these clowns are going to spend billions on this and for what exactly - apart from keeping US arms manufacturers in very lucrative business.    

Politically speaking this country has been looked upon by Labour (who IN Scotland at least are the biggest bunch of corrupt scumbags anyone could imagine) as their personal fiefdom.    Now they are in full blown panic mode - to little too late though - in preserving their nasty jobs (you can include Millipede and Cameron/Clegg in this).      Alastair Darling is on tv this morning talking (lying) about devo max and is evasive on any timetable.   They lied before and they will lie again and a No vote we will get feck all as usual.

[quinsforever]

you vote for the corrupt tw4ts on london as much as i do, and i live in london. you may not like them but the democratic process is the same whether one is english, scots or welsh.

but i can totally understand you want your own corrupt tw4ats as opposed to what you feel is someone else's.

personally i am pleased that whether the vote is Yes or No, the West Lothian issue is finally going to get sorted. With further devolution of powers there will no longer be the farce of Scots MPs (of whichever party) holding people to ransom on issues which pertain only to England, such as University education. That is truly undemocratic and a joke of the halfway devolution currently in place.

I wish Scotland all the best if they vote YES and hope that people feel empowered and motivated, and that you keep your own administrators (politicians and anyone involved in creating new duplicated services) on a very very tight leash so they dont start your economy off on a slippery slope towards fiscal difficulty.

[Neutralee]

Quins makes a good point, right now salmond and co are only garnering support due to the huge overiding issue of the yes vote, beyond that I'm willing to bet he's as privately educated and as slimey as anything Westminster has!

surely as a former oil and bank economist he'll only have scotlands best interest in mind come a potential yes vote?

Whatever the outcome potential to fortune in Scotland will become huge, and a small few will gain a huge amount of wealth and power, hopefully this will be monitered and carefully scrutinised, otherwise you'll just develop another corrupt Westminster based in Edinburgh opposed to London.

On another note, I have a freind moving to Edinburgh next week for work, and I am always back and forth, plus I have an adress there, how will a yes vote effect our access, travel, and work?

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