606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[Jimpy]

Googled Fijians in the British Army, Observer article on the front page from 2009 says more than 2000 in the Army at that point. Wasn't that Fijian Bath winger Semesa Rokoduguni a serving soldier in the Army?

So obviously there are a good number of foreign nationals in the British armed forces.

Well yes, indeed. I was remembering a time when we didn't let every Tom, Dick & Harry in (Gurkhas aside - although technically, they're mercenaries).

And lets be honest, the South Pacific Islanders are only in the British Forces to ring our rugby teams, you can't honestly see us letting the Scots in on the same ticket can you?

[HammerofThunor]

All three parties have pledged (in a newspaper it seems) various additional devolution stuff. Good job we know these guys always follow through with their pledges, sorted.

[LordDowlais]

I watched a lot of the news and debate's about this last night, and it seems to me that most of Scotland is undecided, a lot of the undecided people were saying there are too many if's and no real plan to go independent but they feel the urge to vote for independency out of pride, one person hit the nail square on the head, nobody from the YES campaign has said what their plan is for independency, and one thing that has been consistent through all this is Westminster saying that Scotland will NOT get the pound, they have not been skirting around this subject, the fact is Scotland will have nothing to do with sterling, so I do not know why the YES campaigners are keeping on about it, they should now be looking at alternatives and telling the people of Scotland what they are going to do when they become independent.

[PenfroPete]

If people worry about someone's ability to pay back a loan, they stop lending them money.

So when Standard and Poor's state that Scotland could be AAA rated then that's one less thing to worry about isn't it ?

Reports on the report -
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/independent-scotland-could-be-aaa-rated-standard-poors/
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-s-p-reveals-creditworthiness-1-3322979

The report itself
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdf

[SecretFly]

through all this is Westminster saying that Scotland will NOT get the pound, they have not been skirting around this subject, the fact is Scotland will have nothing to do with sterling

Up until this week - and more especially this morning - Scotland weren't getting any of the new 'Pledges' either, were they? So I'd think it reasonably logical to suggest the Absolute 'NO' to a Scottish Sterling-link before the vote might change to something more accomodating after the vote - should the vote be Yes.

It is in the interests of the UK to do business with an Independent Scotland - that fact can never be denied by either side.  The remainder of UK will want a commerce and common security relationship with Scotland.  Period.  

The vote itself is only the beginning - as quite a few analytical pieces on news bulletins yesterday acknowledged.  The immediate future after a vote (should it be YES) is negotiations, negotiations, negotiations.  Scotland knows that, the rest of the UK know that - anything else is bluff because nobody, absolutely nobody, knows what the results of such negotiations will be.  So anyone who says they know (the Sterling issue for example) is winding up.  Scotland looking for Independence is Scotland looking for the absolute power to negotiate what the future Independent Scotland will look like.  

You can't say what it will look like until the negotiations.  

But you don't get to the negotiations until you vote.  It's just logic.

[whocares]

It seems famous people mostly like the NO camp people better.  And a better class of people they are, sure enough.  
I hear the 'Yes' crowd are mostly hairy dark alley, stone-throwing, threat-making, anti-BBC intimidator kilt types.  We can't be having any of that!!!  It ain't even civilised!!!...................... but we hope they stay with us in the Union anyway

Meanwhile, I'm personally fondest of one famous person's Neutral Opinion actually.  Branson - and his "It won't be the end of the world if the Scots say Yes" yawn.

He's right - and he should know - everything he touches turns to gold.  Infact, he should be UK Prime Minister................ with Michael O'Leary as Taoiseach of Ireland.  They both know how to cut the melodramatic bullcrap out of commonsense profit.

surely he would introduce a tax to let you lot breath fresh air or something!

[LordDowlais]

SecretFly, as I have been reading through this thread, one thing has struck me, the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ?

Also you can go on about negotiations all you like, what is there to nagotiate ? Westminster have said there will be no sterling for Scotland, end of story, did you watch David Cameron yesterday ? He told Scotland everything they would be losing, this is NO bluff, Scotland will be ON THEIR OWN, and that is even their own currency.

[SecretFly]

It seems famous people mostly like the NO camp people better.  And a better class of people they are, sure enough.  
I hear the 'Yes' crowd are mostly hairy dark alley, stone-throwing, threat-making, anti-BBC intimidator kilt types.  We can't be having any of that!!!  It ain't even civilised!!!...................... but we hope they stay with us in the Union anyway

Meanwhile, I'm personally fondest of one famous person's Neutral Opinion actually.  Branson - and his "It won't be the end of the world if the Scots say Yes" yawn.

He's right - and he should know - everything he touches turns to gold.  Infact, he should be UK Prime Minister................ with Michael O'Leary as Taoiseach of Ireland.  They both know how to cut the melodramatic bullcrap out of commonsense profit.

surely he would introduce a tax to let you lot breath fresh air or something!

That's already close to being proposed even now - without his assistance!  We were actually having a lot of fun with ideas like that as a family as we contemplated how eager our present government is in making many lifestyle fundamentals taxable.  I suggested we might be taxed for collecting rain water to avoid approaching heavy piped water taxes...thus forcing us to pay tax on what nature is dropping into our back yards.  Tax on sunshine would never work though as it's too infrequent a 'service'. But they'd think about even taxing that if the summer was more predictable.

[beshocked]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

Well Gavin certainly didn't


Beshocked...simply Ireland are part of the deal with the Lions... and when so, honour so by saying so.  That's mutual respect shown, that's common courtesy.  You want to ignore us as regards the Lions - well go ahead and we'll just leave the show to you.  Even just call it The Lions if the Irish bit sticks in your throat - I don't mind 'the Lions'. But if we're there, admit we're there.  That's all I want from the deal.  Got that?  

And as stated, Hastings knows you don't have to be part of the Union to be a Lion anyway.... his other gaff.  Back to you and your continued annoyance at people who don't feel British (the Scottish who want Independence) and people who aren't British (the Southern Irish)

I do indeed have an annoyance at division. It's becoming tribal - us and them. Unfortunately however Scotland votes in the end the relationship between Scotland and rUK has been damaged in my opinion.

You Irish are very tribal. You are encouraging Scotland in a similar direction.

Instead of celebrating things we have in common and trying to work together to a brighter future you are encouraging turmoil.

[whocares]

SecretFly, as I have been reading through this thread, one thing has struck me, the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ?

Also you can go on about negotiations all you like, what is there to nagotiate ? Westminster have said there will be no sterling for Scotland, end of story, did you watch David Cameron yesterday ? He told Scotland everything they would be losing, this is NO bluff, Scotland will be ON THEIR OWN, and that is even their own currency.

SF at least is not sitting on some sort of fence I think he just likes to counterbalance the vast amount of "better together" arguments. I am curious to see what would happen if Scotland gets independent although as an EU "citizen" it might have some consequences (without the scots who are more pro european than the rest, we might see rUK getting out of the EU by 2020). On the currency side of things, it might be painful at the beginning but I still think that Scotland should either have their own currency or join the eurozone, having the sterling without any control on it is even worst that having your monetary policy dictated by the ECB  (which at least all EU countries can influence). You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs . easy for me to be relaxed about all that as those are not my eggs and it's quite normal that some of Scottish people feel anxious about the whole thing.

[PenfroPete]

LORD - plenty to negoitate on according to Alan Trench -Professor of Politics @ Ulster University, Honorary Fellow in the School of Social and Political Science @ the University of Edinburgh, Honorary Senior Research Associate @ the Constitution Unit at University College London. He's also a solicitor admitted in England and Wales

■the currency the new state will use, and who bears the risks associated with that
■the borders of the new state – particularly its maritime borders, which will affect oil and gas reserves unless a distinct arrangement is made for these.
■the arrangements for movement of persons between rUK and the new state, both at the border and more generally
■whether, when and on what terms the new state will be or become a member of the European Union
■the division of the UK’s current National Debt
■the division of other UK assets and liabilities – ranging from defence infrastructure to museum and gallery collections
■what happens to the existing UK nuclear bases on the Clyde
■if rUK is to continue to administer welfare and pensions payments in Scotland for some transitional period, the basis on which it will do so
■the means by which outstanding issues are resolved, and what happens if the parties cannot reach agreement by negotiation

http://devolutionmatters.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/negotiations-after-a-scottish-referendum-yes-vote/

Even the UK Govt states there will be negotiations

"If a majority of those who vote want Scotland to be independent then Scotland would become an independent country after a process of negotiations. Following the negotiations Scotland would leave the United Kingdom and become a new and separate state."

https://www.gov.uk/government/topical-events/scottish-independence-referendum/about

The issue is the UK Govt hasn't said what it's standpoint on any of these negotiations is because, with justification, they are worried that it would give out the message that they are already preparing for the handover

[LordDowlais]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

[SecretFly]

SecretFly, as I have been reading through this thread, one thing has struck me, the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ?

Also you can go on about negotiations all you like, what is there to nagotiate ? Westminster have said there will be no sterling for Scotland, end of story, did you watch David Cameron yesterday ? He told Scotland everything they would be losing, this is NO bluff, Scotland will be ON THEIR OWN, and that is even their own currency.

Well that... in short......can't be so certain as Cameron himself doesn't even know what the remainder of the UK will look like; as an Independent Scotland would change the dynamic for all - the UK too.  

They'd have to rethink much - both in terms of the new politics of the UK with a sizeable territorial chunk missing, in security issues that will become complex with a new Nation controlling passage northwards beyond the North sea, with the need for UK businesses and peoples to continue working in and doing highly profitable business with Scotland.

You can't avoid any of those truths that not only will it be in the UKs best interests to continue in a friendly cooperative vein with a newly Independent Scotland but also in the solid Fact that Cameron himself isn't clear about the future direction of the UK if Scots say Yes.
That, I repeat Lord, will be decided in negotiations between a sovereign UK and a sovereign Scotland. They would both need to discuss and work out the relationship between them in the aftermath of a YES vote.  Cameron, no different to Salmond himself, knows little of what will transpire from those negotiations and deep governmental meetings.  

Yes, I'm Irish - and therefore I think we know more about the art of "Never, Never, Never, Never!!!" than most. We realise bluster, we know all about propaganda, and we know when pragmatism wins the day. We know that "Never!!!" can quickly change to "Maybe" then out of the blue we have the "Chuckle Brothers" of two bitter enemies laughing together in unity of purpose. We know that "Never!!!" is seldom worth the paper it is written on.

And finally....... "the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ? "

You found me out!!!  My secret plan to take over the World by force..................... with the first stage in my genius evil plan jigsaw being the traumatic breakup of Ireland's biggest trading partner..... yep, that was the plan.  Cameron's pledge may have scuppered my Evil Laugh Speech I was going to make when Scotland said YES! Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

If Scotland become independent Gordon Brown will almost certainly become PM. He will throw his hat into the ring to negotiate a proper separation even though it won't be easy.

The bigger the lie... the more people will believe it.

IRONY ALERT * IRONY ALERT * IRONY ALERT

[SecretFly]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

Well Gavin certainly didn't


Beshocked...simply Ireland are part of the deal with the Lions... and when so, honour so by saying so.  That's mutual respect shown, that's common courtesy.  You want to ignore us as regards the Lions - well go ahead and we'll just leave the show to you.  Even just call it The Lions if the Irish bit sticks in your throat - I don't mind 'the Lions'. But if we're there, admit we're there.  That's all I want from the deal.  Got that?  

And as stated, Hastings knows you don't have to be part of the Union to be a Lion anyway.... his other gaff.  Back to you and your continued annoyance at people who don't feel British (the Scottish who want Independence) and people who aren't British (the Southern Irish)

I do indeed have an annoyance at division. It's becoming tribal - us and them. Unfortunately however Scotland votes in the end the relationship between Scotland and rUK has been damaged in my opinion.

You Irish are very tribal. You are encouraging Scotland in a similar direction.

Instead of celebrating things we have in common and trying to work together to a brighter future you are encouraging turmoil.

Which side of the EU referendum debate are you on as a quick query?  Please, an honest answer.  

And then tell me who visited us (Irish) to a great welcome a few years ago?  And she laughed (real warm open unstuffy laughter) her way through the visit because she knew she was amongst people who respected her, her people and enjoyed the warmth and mutual benefit of a warm relationship in trade and tourism?

Who was that?  And who is the UKs greatest ally in the world?  The Nation that needed a war to break away from Britain... the USA that's who?  They divided themselves politically and then they rejoined as friends and equals with mutual values shared rather than imposed.

You talk about Division and know little of the word in its true meaning.  People want to decide for themselves who their friends are - the UK does it when communicating with the rest of the world, and others want that same right to run their own affairs as they see fit.  A political divsion is not a family division.  The USA is still very much an ideolgical family member with the UK - but it controls its own destiny as an equal.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

All three parties have pledged (in a newspaper it seems) various additional devolution stuff. Good job we know these guys always follow through with their pledges, sorted.

Indeed, Thunor - true of politicians of all colours. Why has it taken till this point for this stuff to come out? Can't believe they expect to be taken seriously

[beshocked]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

Well Gavin certainly didn't


Beshocked...simply Ireland are part of the deal with the Lions... and when so, honour so by saying so.  That's mutual respect shown, that's common courtesy.  You want to ignore us as regards the Lions - well go ahead and we'll just leave the show to you.  Even just call it The Lions if the Irish bit sticks in your throat - I don't mind 'the Lions'. But if we're there, admit we're there.  That's all I want from the deal.  Got that?  

And as stated, Hastings knows you don't have to be part of the Union to be a Lion anyway.... his other gaff.  Back to you and your continued annoyance at people who don't feel British (the Scottish who want Independence) and people who aren't British (the Southern Irish)

I do indeed have an annoyance at division. It's becoming tribal - us and them. Unfortunately however Scotland votes in the end the relationship between Scotland and rUK has been damaged in my opinion.

You Irish are very tribal. You are encouraging Scotland in a similar direction.

Instead of celebrating things we have in common and trying to work together to a brighter future you are encouraging turmoil.

FURTHER IRONY ALERT - I can tell that you've not been following the No campaign particularly closely then, beshocked #TooWeeTooPoorTooStupid

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position? Remember Clegg and student fees? Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance). I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

[LordDowlais]

SecretFly, as I have been reading through this thread, one thing has struck me, the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ?

Also you can go on about negotiations all you like, what is there to nagotiate ? Westminster have said there will be no sterling for Scotland, end of story, did you watch David Cameron yesterday ? He told Scotland everything they would be losing, this is NO bluff, Scotland will be ON THEIR OWN, and that is even their own currency.

Well that... in short......can't be so certain as Cameron himself doesn't even know what the remainder of the UK will look like; as an Independent Scotland would change the dynamic for all - the UK too.  

They'd have to rethink much - both in terms of the new politics of the UK with a sizeable territorial chunk missing, in security issues that will become complex with a new Nation controlling passage northwards beyond the North sea, with the need for UK businesses and peoples to continue working in and doing highly profitable business with Scotland.

You can't avoid any of those truths that not only will it be in the UKs best interests to continue in a friendly cooperative vein with a newly Independent Scotland but also in the solid Fact that Cameron himself isn't clear about the future direction of the UK if Scots say Yes.
That, I repeat Lord, will be decided in negotiations between a sovereign UK and a sovereign Scotland. They would both need to discuss and work out the relationship between them in the aftermath of a YES vote.  Cameron, no different to Salmond himself, knows little of what will transpire from those negotiations and deep governmental meetings.  

Yes, I'm Irish - and therefore I think we know more about the art of "Never, Never, Never, Never!!!" than most.  We realise bluster, we know all about propaganda, and we know when pragmatism wins the day.  We know that "Never!!!" can quickly change to "Maybe" then out of the blue we have the "Chuckle Brothers" of two bitter enemies laughing together in unity of purpose. We know that "Never!!!" is seldom worth the paper it is written on.

And finally....... "the Irish seem to be all for Scotland to go independant, is this because you would like to see the UK being split out of some personal Irish agenda ? "

You found me out!!!  My secret plan to take over the World by force..................... with the first stage in my genius evil plan jigsaw being the traumatic breakup of Ireland's biggest trading partner..... yep, that was the plan.  Cameron's pledge may have scuppered my Evil Laugh Speech I was going to make when Scotland said YES! Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Just because your Irish it does not mean you know everything about the trials and tribulations about going independent, and unless you are 100yrs old you would not have witnessed it in your country either, you really need to take the emotion out of this before you post a reply, there are so many flaws in the YES campaign that are going unanswered I could not fathom it, you are answering exactly like the YES campaign, moving answers onto questions I have not even approached, I am talking about facts, and I will repeat again, did people watch David Cameron's last speech yesterday before the vote ? The fact of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT be getting the pound, this is a fact, now weather it is a bluff or not is something else, BUT, what are Scotland going to do now ? They will have NO currency, what are they going to do ? This is the question the Scottish public need answering, they are being sold down a river by Alex Salmon, let's not forget, he has always wanted independency, he wanted it when Tony Blair and the LABOUR government that most of Scotland voted for was in power, he wanted it when the same government and Gordon Brown, a fellow Scotsman was in charge, what was his excuses for it then, now he wants it because he say's a government that Scotland did not vote for are running things, he is a man with his own ends and he has managed to convince half the population of Scotland that he is the vision, he has not got a scooby what is going to happen if the YES vote goes through, he is not answering the questions being asked, and he has people like you convinced.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to  stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

Skilled workforce, for starters?

It would sadden me greatly if there was any kind of 'large backlash' - a nation's people will have exercised their democratic rights and that should be respected not fallen out over

[fa0019]

Thats cowpat FA, all Scotland needs to do is link the currency with Sterling. ROI (who had a very unpleasant divorce with England) issued an Irish pound that was pegged to Sterling. Loads of countries operate like that.

Its also in the interests of the new UK because big business does not care about boundaries or countries. All they care about is making money and the rUK will need Scottish natural resources.

England is not food self-sufficient either, by the way.

That's bull right sin? This is the modern world. That was the world before the creation on OPEC, before genuine global trade.

Which countries have pegged currencies today? Outside of Denmark the rest are tin pot banana republics. Those which maintain it need massive foreign reserves to rebalance their currency on their parents movements. It also requires strong discipline on your budget. Denmark has maintained their peg because they have high taxation and prudent spending policy and it's proved highly costly to their economy of late.

This is something the snp totally lack. They want high public service provision but low taxation. How will they balance the books when oil wealth is less than forecast? In pegged currencies you can't overspend and you need to keep large surpluses in reserve... Something Scotland lacks. You can't simply borrow more and when oil is less fruitful that is what Scotland will need to do to maintain their services.

Their ideology is garbage. They want to be like Norway, like Sweden..... But they won't increase taxes on the people like these nations, they won't have the reserves to build a wealth fund yet they expect to offer high spending commitments on low taxs. It's voodoo economics. Everyone even a kid with basic school economics knows it's loco. You have the heads of Glasgow, Edinburgh and a host of other scottish economic departments calling it A recipe for disaster, nearly every major banks research team saying its recipe for disaster and their only defence is paying a high profile to formulate a plan for them. It's madness

No need to be so insulting to a lot of countries in the world who have pegged themselves to either the US Dollar or the EU (I know it used to Stg in the past) like China, Hong Kong and more recently Bulgaria (who have in the past pegged their currency to the US dollar and are now pegged to the Euro).

I'd imagine the Scots (if they say Yes) will sort out how they want to run the country for their people. Most people will be happy to pay taxes if they know they are getting a return on their investment. Its when its wasted, it is a problem.

That's the very problem... we will do what's right for us... and this is most probably far different than what rUK must do for them. That is why monetary union or sterlingisation adoption would be suicidal for the nation.

Scotland's oil revenue is 15% of the entire economy. Any swings and roundabouts in oil prices will have massive changes in the state coffers. Now sometimes that could be good right... get a nice little bonus on rising prices. Well that also could mean a black hole which we have to fill... ok when its say 3% of the UK economy...but 15% is another story.

Oil prices in the last month have dropped near 20 $/bbl. That's a drop of 17%. Its nothing to do with Scottish independence either... Scottish oil would hardly cause a ripple in global oil demand. The bear market is in full swing.

So if they need to borrow more, how can they keep to the strict budget constraints required of a pegged currency if they are a high public spending nation... well other than cutting public services?

So they have to save more in the good years right? Well to maintain a pegged currency regardless you need huge foreign reserves to maintain your peg as your currency moves on the open market. That's going to prevent you from spending money on your wealth fund, on public services.

Denmark doesn't have such revenue exposure. It keeps a very tight ship, one of the best maintained budgets and the discipline is key. It has little exposure to the volatile commodities market. That is why they can peg to the Euro... yet even then they say they should join the Euro as they have been less impacted by the credit crunch then the euro zone but have had to hurt themselves to maintain the peg. Its damaged their economy.

It would be the same for Scotland.

Its not pretty.

If Scotland votes yes then their is only one option. Our own currency and if the Euro commits to Fiscal union (and actually follows it through (big big if) then perhaps long term it would be best if they joined the Euro as it would protect their FS sector more... but that is way off, maybe decades away. That is what will probably happen as without doubt, if Scotland votes yes, the first leader of an independent Scotland will not be the SNP, it will be Scottish Labour and they know there is only one option.

[LordDowlais]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

[fa0019]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to  stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

Skilled workforce, for starters?

It would sadden me greatly if there was any kind of 'large backlash' - a nation's people will have exercised their democratic rights and that should be respected not fallen out over

If 70% of a businesses revenues comes from a particular foreign nation, the chances are its best for you to be located in that particular country as you would not be subject to differences over time in taxations, currency markets, trade tariffs. That is why so many firms are expected to move south on a yes vote. They may be Scottish firms but they cater for UK market and Scotland is a far smaller market. Its about survival, its business not personal.

Sure if the people of Scotland vote yes then so be it... but these firms are not answerable to the Scottish public, to you to me. They are answerable to their shareholders. Those are the people that invested in the company.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to  stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

Skilled workforce, for starters?

It would sadden me greatly if there was any kind of 'large backlash' - a nation's people will have exercised their democratic rights and that should be respected not fallen out over

If 70% of a businesses revenues comes from a particular foreign nation, the chances are its best for you to be located in that particular country as you would not be subject to differences over time in taxations, currency markets, trade tariffs. That is why so many firms are expected to move south on a yes vote. They may be Scottish firms but they cater for UK market and Scotland is a far smaller market. Its about survival, its business not personal.

Sure if the people of Scotland vote yes then so be it... but these firms are not answerable to the Scottish public, to you to me. They are answerable to their shareholders. Those are the people that invested in the company.

Odd that so much manufacturing business that finds its way to the western world is in China

[SecretFly]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

ONE: Profit.  Money.  Businesses will want to operate in Scotland (and of course the UK) for strict, coldhearted market economic reasons.  
A population (Scotland) that wants to buy and people that got products and services to sell.  
You don't want to go threatening all that by having a totally beligerent attitude to a new Independent neighbour.  Bad for business, bad for UK companies, bad for UK citizens - many of whom will keep working north of any new border.

TWO: The backlash might indeed come.  From a new Labour Government?  That'll be fun if it happens!! - a Labour government punishing the working class Scots who voted against Union (I only say working class because it seems most seem to think its that class that are throwing the bricks through windows and 'intimidating' Labourite Unionists.)

THREE:  Its me who is telling YOU that the relationship will be different, not the same.  That's me telling you that, not the other way round.  On day one of any YES vote, the relationships between the remainder of the UK and Scotland will be fundamentally different in a political sense.  How different, and in what major areas, will come down to that word again - negotiation.  Negotiation about the difference will begin after the vote not before it.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

The question has been answered by the Yes campaign over and over again - iScotland will continue to use sterling, one way or another. Now, it's not what i would do, nor is it without flaws, but suggesting that the question has not been answered is factually incorrect

[RuggerRadge2611]

To be honest the NHS LIE has now been fully exposed.

Vote YES to safe guard the NHS in Scotland??????? Do me a favour!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Before this gets shot down as BBC bias controled by a tory elite from westminster here are some local examples:

Cuts to the NHS are inevitable but again the YES campaign have no right to the high ground. If I were involved at an accident at work (Rosyth Dockyard) I used to be able to go to A&E or get an ambulance to Queen Margaret. Now I would have to go to ERI (Edinburgh Royal Infirmary) or Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/health/nicola-sturgeon-to-face-the-public-over-nhs-fife-a-e-closures-1.25069

There is a petition signed by over 10000 people to get A&E opened again in Dunfermline for your notes Dunfermline is the fastest growing town in Fife and already has a population in excess of 55000 people.

http://www.fifenewsonline.co.uk/news/dunfermline-hospital-10k-signatures

They are doing the same thing with the police, no longer do we have Fife Constabulary, Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders etc. We now have Police Scotland. One over arching body that oversees all policing in Scotland. Because policing the Isle of Arran is very similar to policing Easterhouse

This is the side of the SNP administration, that the YES Campaign hides behind patriotism and shouty politics blaming the Tories for decisions they have made.

Full credit to Salmond because a lot of people believe what he is shovelling

[beshocked]

You Irish really like to get on your high horses don't you? When Hastings played they were known as the British Lions. He is entitled to call them that. I know you Irish think that Ireland is the greatest country in the world and all other countries are run by little girls...but please put that aside....

We get it - Ireland is great. Don't need to bring Ireland into every single discussion.

Well Gavin certainly didn't


Beshocked...simply Ireland are part of the deal with the Lions... and when so, honour so by saying so.  That's mutual respect shown, that's common courtesy.  You want to ignore us as regards the Lions - well go ahead and we'll just leave the show to you.  Even just call it The Lions if the Irish bit sticks in your throat - I don't mind 'the Lions'. But if we're there, admit we're there.  That's all I want from the deal.  Got that?  

And as stated, Hastings knows you don't have to be part of the Union to be a Lion anyway.... his other gaff.  Back to you and your continued annoyance at people who don't feel British (the Scottish who want Independence) and people who aren't British (the Southern Irish)

I do indeed have an annoyance at division. It's becoming tribal - us and them. Unfortunately however Scotland votes in the end the relationship between Scotland and rUK has been damaged in my opinion.

You Irish are very tribal. You are encouraging Scotland in a similar direction.

Instead of celebrating things we have in common and trying to work together to a brighter future you are encouraging turmoil.

Which side of the EU referendum debate are you on as a quick query?  Please, an honest answer.  

And then tell me who visited us (Irish) to a great welcome a few years ago?  And she laughed (real warm open unstuffy laughter) her way through the visit because she knew she was amongst people who respected her, her people and enjoyed the warmth and mutual benefit of a warm relationship in trade and tourism?

Who was that?  And who is the UKs greatest ally in the world?  The Nation that needed a war to break away from Britain... the USA that's who?  They divided themselves politically and then they rejoined as friends and equals with mutual values shared rather than imposed.

You talk about Division and know little of the word in its true meaning.  People want to decide for themselves who their friends are - the UK does it when communicating with the rest of the world, and others want that same right to run their own affairs as they see fit.  A political divsion is not a family division.  The USA is still very much an ideolgical family member with the UK - but it controls its own destiny as an equal.

In terms of an EU referendum I want a proper discussion. If there are proper alternatives then I am willing to discuss them. I want a liable solution. I don't believe the current EU is satisfactory because it is not originally what the UK was signed up to. It has morphed over years to become a completely different beast.

The EU referendum is very different - we have been in it for a lot less time, UK is different to rest of Europe. It's a separate island etc.

Want to join as a friend and equal? There are no equals.

USA does what is in it's best interests - did USA help us in the Falklands? No - our supposed greatest ally sat back.

The Americans arrived late in the 1st and 2nd world war - self interest at heart again. Did you know how beneficial to the USA economy the 2nd world war was?

Oh look at the great USA financially crippling their ally - forcing Britain to pay back all the debt. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6215847.stm

Our friends are the ones who fight side by side. That's been the Scottish far more so than the Americans. Scottish soldiers have been a huge aspect of the British army and I don't want to lose that.

If the Scots leave they will no longer fight side by side.

We share the same island - it's not the same as other parts of the British empire getting independence.

Self interest and greed is the heart of it all.

[fa0019]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

As long as....

added to LD's comments.

Its not that monetary union isn't possible.. it is. It is under very very strict rules where Scotland would have no control over their monetary policy and be under massive constraints over how much they can or cannot spend on public services, let alone if rUK decides to raise interest rates for their benefit, but perhaps not Scotlands.

Scotland won't get a seat on the monetary committee. They will have zero say over their own finances and be subject to an economy very different in makeup to their own.

Then I don't think the people will allow it. rUK as a public will not want to government to allow Scotland to piggy back on them... meaning they have bail us out if we spend too much etc. I.e. what is the incentive NOT to keep to the constraints, if we go bust someone else picks up the bill?.

The breakup will be difficult and Scotland will have very little say in what they can actually get.

The sovereign will of 5MM empowered people right.... yeah, how is that against the sovereign will of 57MM bitter people?

[LordDowlais]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

The question has been answered by the Yes campaign over and over again - iScotland will continue to use sterling, one way or another.  Now, it's not what i would do, nor is it without flaws, but suggesting that the question has not been answered is factually incorrect

Why do the YES campaigners keep thinking this ? Westminster has told the people voting for independence that they will NOT get the pound, and there is no plan B either, FFS you cannot build a country on the HOPE that another will change it's mind and let them keep their currency, David Cameron has said that if Scotland go alone, that means everything, and that means that Scotland will have to use their own currency, the people of Scotland need to realise this, the YES campaign is built on patriotism, fine, but let's tell the people about the struggles ahead as well, the fact that the UK government has SAID that Scotland will not get the pound is just the tip of the iceberg, there are a whole lot of other things they will not be getting as well, but the whole YES campaign is chancing everything on a bluff by Westminster without having a backup plan if they are called on it.

[beshocked]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to  stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

Skilled workforce, for starters?

It would sadden me greatly if there was any kind of 'large backlash' - a nation's people will have exercised their democratic rights and that should be respected not fallen out over

Why should I respect someone who has no respect for me? It's your own self interest at heart. You might see it as your democratic right but not everyone is so lucky as yourself in this world we live in.

You expect the rUK just to graciously accept the economic hit to the rest of the UK if you vote Yes.

[SecretFly]

Just because your Irish it does not mean you know everything about the trials and tribulations about going independent, and unless you are 100yrs old you would not have witnessed it in your country either, you really need to take the emotion out of this before you post a reply, there are so many flaws in the YES campaign that are going unanswered I could not fathom it, you are answering exactly like the YES campaign, moving answers onto questions I have not even approached, I am talking about facts, and I will repeat again, did people watch David Cameron's last speech yesterday before the vote ? The fact of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT be getting the pound, this is a fact, now weather it is a bluff or not is something else, BUT, what are Scotland going to do now ? They will have NO currency, what are they going to do ? This is the question the Scottish public need answering, they are being sold down a river by Alex Salmon, let's not forget, he has always wanted independency, he wanted it when Tony Blair and the LABOUR government that most of Scotland voted for was in power, he wanted it when the same government and Gordon Brown, a fellow Scotsman was in charge, what was his excuses for it then, now he wants it because he say's a government that Scotland did not vote for are running things, he is a man with his own ends and he has managed to convince half the population of Scotland that he is the vision, he has not got a scooby what is going to happen if the YES vote goes through, he is not answering the questions being asked, and he has people like you convinced.

Lord, I witnessed the violence and fear in MY lifetime.  I'm old enough and certainly close enough to the real physical warfare signs of "Never" that were out there when I was very young and all through my teens and young adult life.  I know how Paisley's NEVER changed to maybe and then changed to "We can do this" .

It's called compromise - and I'm telling you one more time - I don't care that Cameron said Scotland will NOT get Sterling.  I am distinctly saying he Doesn't KNOW that from where he's standing.  He can't know it from where he's standing because he hasn't attended one blessed meeting with Salmond yet.  Of course he'll hope he never has to, but the point is that if Scotland vote YES, Cameron will have no choice but to have not just one meeting with old Salmond but many many meetings.  And the meeting will be designed to work out what where the "NEVER" bluffs and what will be the negotiated truths.

You seem to think the Sterling 'promise' of Cameron is written in stone.  I'm saying any stone can be crushed by the weight of needing to do business and the pragmatism of finding solutions to having good relations between neighbours.  Those discussion will happen after the vote not before it with "NEVER" speeches.

[fa0019]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

The question has been answered by the Yes campaign over and over again - iScotland will continue to use sterling, one way or another.  Now, it's not what i would do, nor is it without flaws, but suggesting that the question has not been answered is factually incorrect

What you are saying is very inaccurate.

They won't use it.

There won't be a monetary union. Its very clear.

They could adopt the £ sure, but again that won't happen.

The SNP will not be in power. Scottish Labour will be and I would put money on Gordon Brown becoming PM on 19th Sept if yes wins. He/Douglas Alexander will come in and they will set up their own currency. Its the only way to protect Scotland when on their own.

[Notch]

No-one will become First Minister on the 19th September. 'Independence Day' is slated for March 2016. I assume the first election will be in the weeks following that.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Penfro, ok there will be some negotiations, but I have heard, point blank, that Scotland will NOT be getting the POUND, now, take that as you will, we have all heard this been said on the tele and through other media outlets, so, what are the YES campaigners going to do without it ? David Cameron also said yesterday that Scotland would lose it's pensions.

LD, Do you honestly think that this is the first time that any of these three parties have conveniently reversed a previously stated position?  Remember Clegg and student fees?  Numerous similar for Cameron and Milliband too (indeed also for Salmond, in the spirit of balance).  I think you are in danger of being somewhat naive if you can't see that in the event of a Yes vote, pretty much everything is open to negotiation

Again, talking about what if's and might be's, the facts of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT get the pound, the people of Scotland need to be told what they will do without the pound, a question the YES campaigners are all seeming to avoid at their own convenience, so what is the plan then ? Come on, you are so sure about this, you tell me what is happening ?

The question has been answered by the Yes campaign over and over again - iScotland will continue to use sterling, one way or another.  Now, it's not what i would do, nor is it without flaws, but suggesting that the question has not been answered is factually incorrect

What you are saying is very inaccurate.

They won't use it.

There won't be a monetary union. Its very clear.

They could adopt the £ sure, but again that won't happen.

The SNP will not be in power. Scottish Labour will be and I would put money on Gordon Brown becoming PM on 19th Sept if yes wins. He/Douglas Alexander will come in and they will set up their own currency. Its the only way to protect Scotland when on their own.

Like it or not, fa, it is the current stated position of the Yes campaign against your guesswork

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Secretfly you don't seem to understand that the UK government is not the rUK people or businesses. I expect there will be a shift of businesses to rUK. Why would the businesses need to  stay in Scotland?

Cameron might bow and bend to Salmond but if the people of the rUK do not approve....expect a large backlash.

You naively seem to think that relations will be the same. They won't.

This referendum is already damaging the rUK by undermining confidence in the UK system. As a member of the UK I am not happy about that.

Skilled workforce, for starters?

It would sadden me greatly if there was any kind of 'large backlash' - a nation's people will have exercised their democratic rights and that should be respected not fallen out over

Why should I respect someone who has no respect for me? It's your own self interest at heart. You might see it as your democratic right but not everyone is so lucky as yourself in this world we live in.

You expect the rUK just to graciously accept the economic hit to the rest of the UK if you vote Yes.

Why does Scotland have no respect for you, beshocked? I think you're bringing emotion into this that has no place in the argument or the decision

[LordDowlais]

Just because your Irish it does not mean you know everything about the trials and tribulations about going independent, and unless you are 100yrs old you would not have witnessed it in your country either, you really need to take the emotion out of this before you post a reply, there are so many flaws in the YES campaign that are going unanswered I could not fathom it, you are answering exactly like the YES campaign, moving answers onto questions I have not even approached, I am talking about facts, and I will repeat again, did people watch David Cameron's last speech yesterday before the vote ? The fact of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT be getting the pound, this is a fact, now weather it is a bluff or not is something else, BUT, what are Scotland going to do now ? They will have NO currency, what are they going to do ? This is the question the Scottish public need answering, they are being sold down a river by Alex Salmon, let's not forget, he has always wanted independency, he wanted it when Tony Blair and the LABOUR government that most of Scotland voted for was in power, he wanted it when the same government and Gordon Brown, a fellow Scotsman was in charge, what was his excuses for it then, now he wants it because he say's a government that Scotland did not vote for are running things, he is a man with his own ends and he has managed to convince half the population of Scotland that he is the vision, he has not got a scooby what is going to happen if the YES vote goes through, he is not answering the questions being asked, and he has people like you convinced.

Lord, I witnessed the violence and fear in MY lifetime.  I'm old enough and certainly close enough to the real physical warfare signs of "Never" that were out there when I was very young and all through my teens and young adult life.  I know how Paisley's NEVER changed to maybe and then changed to "We can do this" .

It's called compromise - and I'm telling you one more time - I don't care that Cameron said Scotland will NOT get Sterling.  I am distinctly saying he Doesn't KNOW that from where he's standing.  He can't know it from where he's standing because he hasn't attended one blessed meeting with Salmond yet.  Of course he'll hope he never has to, but the point is that if Scotland vote YES, Cameron will have no choice but to have not just one meeting with old Salmond but many many meetings.  And the meeting will be designed to work out what where the "NEVER" bluffs and what will be the negotiated truths.

You seem to think the Sterling 'promise' of Cameron is written in stone.  I'm saying any stone can be crushed by the weight of needing to do business and the pragmatism of finding solutions to having good relations between neighbours.  Those discussion will happen after the vote not before it with "NEVER" speeches.

SecretFly, I am basing my argument around facts, and what has been said, not what MIGHT happen, what if MIGHT does not happen ? Also Salmon has not had one of these meetings with David Cameron either, and he is basing his whole campaign on what MIGHT happen, people need to be told, if Westminster stick to their guns and carry out what they have said, then where does an independant Scotland go from there ? You seriuosly need to take the emotion out of what you are basing your point of view on and think of the bigger picture, because bluff or no bluff, if Westminster call Scotland on this, they are fecked, with no plan B what so ever.

[fa0019]

Just because your Irish it does not mean you know everything about the trials and tribulations about going independent, and unless you are 100yrs old you would not have witnessed it in your country either, you really need to take the emotion out of this before you post a reply, there are so many flaws in the YES campaign that are going unanswered I could not fathom it, you are answering exactly like the YES campaign, moving answers onto questions I have not even approached, I am talking about facts, and I will repeat again, did people watch David Cameron's last speech yesterday before the vote ? The fact of the matter is Westminster has said that Scotland will NOT be getting the pound, this is a fact, now weather it is a bluff or not is something else, BUT, what are Scotland going to do now ? They will have NO currency, what are they going to do ? This is the question the Scottish public need answering, they are being sold down a river by Alex Salmon, let's not forget, he has always wanted independency, he wanted it when Tony Blair and the LABOUR government that most of Scotland voted for was in power, he wanted it when the same government and Gordon Brown, a fellow Scotsman was in charge, what was his excuses for it then, now he wants it because he say's a government that Scotland did not vote for are running things, he is a man with his own ends and he has managed to convince half the population of Scotland that he is the vision, he has not got a scooby what is going to happen if the YES vote goes through, he is not answering the questions being asked, and he has people like you convinced.

Lord, I witnessed the violence and fear in MY lifetime.  I'm old enough and certainly close enough to the real physical warfare signs of "Never" that were out there when I was very young and all through my teens and young adult life.  I know how Paisley's NEVER changed to maybe and then changed to "We can do this" .

It's called compromise - and I'm telling you one more time - I don't care that Cameron said Scotland will NOT get Sterling.  I am distinctly saying he Doesn't KNOW that from where he's standing.  He can't know it from where he's standing because he hasn't attended one blessed meeting with Salmond yet.  Of course he'll hope he never has to, but the point is that if Scotland vote YES, Cameron will have no choice but to have not just one meeting with old Salmond but many many meetings.  And the meeting will be designed to work out what where the "NEVER" bluffs and what will be the negotiated truths.

You seem to think the Sterling 'promise' of Cameron is written in stone.  I'm saying any stone can be crushed by the weight of needing to do business and the pragmatism of finding solutions to having good relations between neighbours.  Those discussion will happen after the vote not before it with "NEVER" speeches.

You can compromise when you have chips to lose... but this is a table where rUK have 9 seats and we have 1. It is in NO interest of rUK to have a monetary union. None whatsoever. If Scotland goes bust, over spends  then they have to bail them out... not just like when the UK gave money to help bail out Ireland with the rest of Europe..... everything.

If Scotland goes bust under union rUK will have to pick up the bill. It gives Scotland no incentive to keep to limits as we can have our socialist utopia but when the music stops, someone else pays the bills and cleans up. There is no incentive for rUK to want this.

It simply won't happen.

rUK doesn't have to compromise anything. They will help us but make no mistake they won't be all nice and simply open up the wallet for old time sake.

Near 40% of Scotlands' economy is based on trade to England. Say Scotland doesn't take debt... bang well here is an automatic trade tariff which kills Scottish business. We are the junior partner, its not the other way around.

All we have is trident and given near 10,000 Scottish jobs directly rely on trident its hardly going to be something we can blackmail England with.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

To be honest the NHS LIE has now been fully exposed.

Vote YES to safe guard the NHS in Scotland??????? Do me a favour!    

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Before this gets shot down as BBC bias controled by a tory elite from westminster here are some local examples:

Cuts to the NHS are inevitable but again the YES campaign have no right to the high ground. If I were involved at an accident at work (Rosyth Dockyard) I used to be able to go to A&E or get an ambulance to Queen Margaret. Now I would have to go to ERI (Edinburgh Royal Infirmary) or Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/health/nicola-sturgeon-to-face-the-public-over-nhs-fife-a-e-closures-1.25069

There is a petition signed by over 10000 people to get A&E opened again in Dunfermline for your notes Dunfermline is the fastest growing town in Fife and already has a population in excess of 55000 people.

http://www.fifenewsonline.co.uk/news/dunfermline-hospital-10k-signatures

They are doing the same thing with the police, no longer do we have Fife Constabulary, Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders etc. We now have Police Scotland. One over arching body that oversees all policing in Scotland. Because policing the Isle of Arran is very similar to policing Easterhouse

This is the side of the SNP administration, that the YES Campaign hides behind patriotism and shouty politics blaming the Tories for decisions they have made.

Full credit to Salmond because a lot of people believe what he is shovelling

Surely the question over the Scottish NHS is whether it will be better protected in iScotland or with Scotland as part of the union? i don't imagine that it is perfect by any sense in its current shape, and thank you for taking the time to source some real examples - it's a shame that others cannot do similar and seem to think that their opinions will suffice.

But I think you would have to agree that the NHS in Scotland is generally held to be in better shape than its counterpart in England (in terms of its operations) - even if it could be improved beyond its current position

But the argument is over funding - the amount available is a function of the Barnett formula and the block grant from Westminster, and that is a fact. If Holyrood chooses to shuffle the deck, with more on education or whatever, then those SMPs will be answerable for that, but the Scottish people have no voice over the total sum coming back north of the border. Surely you can see why that would be a concern?

[HammerofThunor]

I understand why the Scots are so worked up over this, it's obviously massive. I really don't understand why some of us from rUK are so wound up over it. Although the union breaking up will obvious effect me, it's nothing to do with me. I don't expect Scotland to stay in perpetual union just because they've been there for a few hundred years.

Why is it ok for the Falklands to have a vote on staying a British protectorate or independent or whatever it was, but not ok for Scotland? Is that because they voted to stay with the UK rather than Argentina?

Democracy is great, as long as you vote for my guy.

PS I always got the impression that SecretFly was about 100 but never grew up, kind of like Peter Pan.

[quinsforever]

If people worry about someone's ability to pay back a loan, they stop lending them money.

So when Standard and Poor's state that Scotland could be AAA rated then that's one less thing to worry about isn't it ?

Reports on the report -
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/independent-scotland-could-be-aaa-rated-standard-poors/
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-s-p-reveals-creditworthiness-1-3322979

The report itself
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdf

The important bit of their report is here.

"In brief, we would expect Scotland to benefit from all the attributes of an investment-grade sovereign credit
characterized by its wealthy economy (roughly the size of New Zealand's), high-quality human capital, flexible product
and labor markets, and transparent institutions. Nevertheless, the newly formed sovereign state would begin life with
comparatively high levels of public debt, sensitivity to oil prices, and, depending on the nature of arrangements with
the EU or U.K., potentially limited monetary flexibility. At the same time, Scotland's external position in terms of
liquidity and investment could be subject to volatility should banks leave. On the other hand, if this were to happen, it
could bring benefits in terms of reducing the size of the Scottish economy's external balance sheet, normalizing the size
of its financial sector, and reducing contingent liabilities for the state. In short, the challenge for Scotland to go it alone
would be significant, but not unsurpassable."

When this report was issued the UK govt had not ruled out using Sterling. They have now, and Carney at the BOE has highlighted the risks of attempted Sterlingisation in terms of required reserves and inability to print money. Without your own central bank (and the ability to issue your own currency) no sovereign new country will get a AAA rating. They would be lucky, initially, to be rated more than one or two notches about the lowest investment grade.

[fa0019]

To be honest the NHS LIE has now been fully exposed.

Vote YES to safe guard the NHS in Scotland??????? Do me a favour!    

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Before this gets shot down as BBC bias controled by a tory elite from westminster here are some local examples:

Cuts to the NHS are inevitable but again the YES campaign have no right to the high ground. If I were involved at an accident at work (Rosyth Dockyard) I used to be able to go to A&E or get an ambulance to Queen Margaret. Now I would have to go to ERI (Edinburgh Royal Infirmary) or Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/health/nicola-sturgeon-to-face-the-public-over-nhs-fife-a-e-closures-1.25069

There is a petition signed by over 10000 people to get A&E opened again in Dunfermline for your notes Dunfermline is the fastest growing town in Fife and already has a population in excess of 55000 people.

http://www.fifenewsonline.co.uk/news/dunfermline-hospital-10k-signatures

They are doing the same thing with the police, no longer do we have Fife Constabulary, Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders etc. We now have Police Scotland. One over arching body that oversees all policing in Scotland. Because policing the Isle of Arran is very similar to policing Easterhouse

This is the side of the SNP administration, that the YES Campaign hides behind patriotism and shouty politics blaming the Tories for decisions they have made.

Full credit to Salmond because a lot of people believe what he is shovelling

Surely the question over the Scottish NHS is whether it will be better protected in iScotland or with Scotland as part of the union?  i don't imagine that it is perfect by any sense in its current shape, and thank you for taking the time to source some real examples - it's a shame that others cannot do similar and seem to think that their opinions will suffice.

But I think you would have to agree that the NHS in Scotland is generally held to be in better shape than its counterpart in England (in terms of its operations) - even if it could be improved beyond its current position

But the argument is over funding - the amount available is a function of the Barnett formula and the block grant from Westminster, and that is a fact.  If Holyrood chooses to shuffle the deck, with more on education or whatever, then those SMPs will be answerable for that, but the Scottish people have no voice over the total sum coming back north of the border.  Surely you can see why that would be a concern?  

Better why as long as???

Because we only have to deal with certain diseases that's why. If we were responsible for everything costs would get far far higher.

There are over 60 diseases which patients in Scotland have to travel to England to receive treatment. Scottish hospitals have neither the skills nor the workforce to deal with such cases.

Also remember that we get a steady number of doctors and nurses trained in England to come and fill our workforce. This will stop (not overnight but overtime). Costs will rise there is no doubt.

[beshocked]

Not me specifically - rest of the UK. Not just the English, the Northern Irish and Welsh too.

How ironic you talk about bringing emotion into discussion - that's what most of Salmond's vision is based on - the Braveheart mentality. It is that emotional desire to be free of the supposed unhealthy influence of Westminster. Failing to acknowledge that Westminster is only one small part of the UK.Wales,Northern Ireland and rest of England are arguably seen as insignificant by Scotland.

Did you know that the South East of England - not including London - gets far less spending per head than Scotland for example?

You feel that Westminster ignore you yet that's not true.

I don't feel that many Scottish people understand the benefits they have gained from the Union. I am not labelling the Scots as scroungers because you do contribute to the UK economy and have contributed to the Union since it's the beginning - I respect that.

I do feel like that Scotland is ungrateful though for what has been done for it and doesn't respect the rest of the UK. The job creation in Scotland and supporting the banks for example.

[quinsforever]

I understand why the Scots are so worked up over this, it's obviously massive.  I really don't understand why some of us from rUK are so wound up over it. Although the union breaking up will obvious effect me, it's nothing to do with me. I don't expect Scotland to stay in perpetual union just because they've been there for a few hundred years.

Why is it ok for the Falklands to have a vote on staying a British protectorate or independent or whatever it was, but not ok for Scotland? Is that because they voted to stay with the UK rather than Argentina?

Democracy is great, as long as you vote for my guy.

PS I always got the impression that SecretFly was about 100 but never grew up, kind of like Peter Pan.

Scotland can definitely go. But not with Sterling. And they wont be allowed back in. rUK people are exercised because it quite a slap in the face. They are mostly quietly watching the debate. But when a YES happens, expect ordinary voters to on average not feel particularly charitable towards Scotland and particularly the disingenuous SNP leadership. Scotland will become a nation that we are competing with for business rather than cooperating. And i expect Westminster to be aggressive and ruthless in attracting business and money to the rUK as that will be their responsibility to rUK voters, unconstrained by any responsibility towards Scotland. Will be just like trying to win business from every other country in the EU. Not personal.

[RuggerRadge2611]

To be honest the NHS LIE has now been fully exposed.

Vote YES to safe guard the NHS in Scotland??????? Do me a favour!    

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Before this gets shot down as BBC bias controled by a tory elite from westminster here are some local examples:

Cuts to the NHS are inevitable but again the YES campaign have no right to the high ground. If I were involved at an accident at work (Rosyth Dockyard) I used to be able to go to A&E or get an ambulance to Queen Margaret. Now I would have to go to ERI (Edinburgh Royal Infirmary) or Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/health/nicola-sturgeon-to-face-the-public-over-nhs-fife-a-e-closures-1.25069

There is a petition signed by over 10000 people to get A&E opened again in Dunfermline for your notes Dunfermline is the fastest growing town in Fife and already has a population in excess of 55000 people.

http://www.fifenewsonline.co.uk/news/dunfermline-hospital-10k-signatures

They are doing the same thing with the police, no longer do we have Fife Constabulary, Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders etc. We now have Police Scotland. One over arching body that oversees all policing in Scotland. Because policing the Isle of Arran is very similar to policing Easterhouse

This is the side of the SNP administration, that the YES Campaign hides behind patriotism and shouty politics blaming the Tories for decisions they have made.

Full credit to Salmond because a lot of people believe what he is shovelling

Surely the question over the Scottish NHS is whether it will be better protected in iScotland or with Scotland as part of the union?  i don't imagine that it is perfect by any sense in its current shape, and thank you for taking the time to source some real examples - it's a shame that others cannot do similar and seem to think that their opinions will suffice.

But I think you would have to agree that the NHS in Scotland is generally held to be in better shape than its counterpart in England (in terms of its operations) - even if it could be improved beyond its current position

But the argument is over funding - the amount available is a function of the Barnett formula and the block grant from Westminster, and that is a fact.  If Holyrood chooses to shuffle the deck, with more on education or whatever, then those SMPs will be answerable for that, but the Scottish people have no voice over the total sum coming back north of the border.  Surely you can see why that would be a concern?  

I signed the petittion AS, I'm not an idiot and I know juggling the budgets of Health, Policing, Education etc is an unthankable task for anyone in power.

However the NHS is a devolved power. It's something that can be controlled from Holyrood.

Had the Fife council sent a letter out saying right Everyone's council Tax is going up by a fiver but we'll keep the A&E open in Dunfermline I think just about everyone would have agreed.

It just seems to me instead of solving these problems the FM is using them as weapons against the Tories and the rUK in this debate.

[SecretFly]

I understand why the Scots are so worked up over this, it's obviously massive.  I really don't understand why some of us from rUK are so wound up over it. Although the union breaking up will obvious effect me, it's nothing to do with me. I don't expect Scotland to stay in perpetual union just because they've been there for a few hundred years.

Why is it ok for the Falklands to have a vote on staying a British protectorate or independent or whatever it was, but not ok for Scotland? Is that because they voted to stay with the UK rather than Argentina?

Democracy is great, as long as you vote for my guy.

PS I always got the impression that SecretFly was about 100 but never grew up, kind of like Peter Pan.

God, Hammer - we've had our bloody debates between us...but that was poetry

I mean - just like Branson's point that I highlighted earlier - it's the Neutrals that talk most pure sense.

It's a very emotive subject, sure enough - and in a very good sense too - because so much political chat these days and most contributors go though the motions......... bland, disinterested, habitual cliches et etc.  You couldn't accuse this topic of any of that.  But, it's also good to step back and say the world will turn the day after a vote and the UK and Scotland (either united or separated) will find a reasonable way to manage the future without mental breakdown on all sides.



Caulm down everyone!!!!  Caulm down!, as my favourite Scousers used to say.  But you Hammer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You!!!!!!!!!    I'm bloody furious about the Peter Pan comment...and will hold it in for you eternally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fa0019]

Not me specifically - rest of the UK. Not just the English, the Northern Irish and Welsh too.

How ironic you talk about bringing emotion into discussion - that's what most of Salmond's vision is based on - the Braveheart mentality. It is that emotional desire to be free of the supposed unhealthy influence of Westminster. Failing to acknowledge that Westminster is only one small part of the UK.Wales,Northern Ireland and rest of England are arguably seen as insignificant by Scotland.

Did you know that the South East of England - not including London - gets far less spending per head than Scotland for example?

You feel that Westminster ignore you yet that's not true.

I don't feel that many Scottish people understand the benefits they have gained from the Union. I am not labelling the Scots as scroungers because you do contribute to the UK economy and have contributed to the Union since it's the beginning - I respect that.

I do feel like that Scotland is ungrateful though for what has been done for it and doesn't respect the rest of the UK. The job creation in Scotland and supporting the banks for example.

What I am most ashamed about my fellow countrymen is that given oil was discovered off the coast of Scotland we suddenly want to keep it all to ourselves. Prior to oil we were together, together at the beginning because we screwed up massive and went cap in hand to Westminster 300 years ago. Happy then that rUK were paying more to us then we put in.... and that was for 250 years.

They saved us then and they have saved us many times before. We have paid them back as well with loyalty yet Oil has all changed this.

Reminds me of my son trying to share a cookie... mine mine mine!!!!

Doesn't matter if the cookie is almost gone and they are willing to chop off the head of the golden goose. Its a real lack of maturity and to be honest, ethics.

[PenfroPete]

QUINS - as SecretFly has stated never, never, never is long time. UK Govt have said they have ruled it out, negotiations have not started yet  

Anyway, why are people saying that after a potential YES vote there’ll be 57 million (rUK population) bitter people ?
I  won’t be and I know many Northern Irish, English & Welsh people who won’t be either  

[beshocked]

I understand why the Scots are so worked up over this, it's obviously massive.  I really don't understand why some of us from rUK are so wound up over it. Although the union breaking up will obvious effect me, it's nothing to do with me. I don't expect Scotland to stay in perpetual union just because they've been there for a few hundred years.

Why is it ok for the Falklands to have a vote on staying a British protectorate or independent or whatever it was, but not ok for Scotland? Is that because they voted to stay with the UK rather than Argentina?

Democracy is great, as long as you vote for my guy.

PS I always got the impression that SecretFly was about 100 but never grew up, kind of like Peter Pan.

Hammerofthunor you ask why some of us are worked up about it.

Scotland have been part of Britain for over 300 years. They have been one of our closest allies, fighting side by side with us in numerous conflicts. Scottish soldiers have proudly contributed to the history of Britain. I really want Scotland to stay part of the Union. I feel that we are stronger together. We have our differences but we can fight that out on the rugby pitch. It upsets me that many Scottish seem to not appreciate the proud history we have shared together as allies (only focussing on Bannockburn and William Wallace instead).

Scotland are having their vote - I just want them to vote a certain way.

If they vote Yes then they are turning their back on the rest of the UK and should be treated accordingly.

On a similar note - Sean Connery - very ungrateful - James Bond made his career - British spy created by British author, Ian Fleming.

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