The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Onwards, we go. Latest England squad has been named for the friendly against Norway, and the opening qualifier versus Switzerland.

Goalkeepers: Fraser Forster (Southampton), Ben Foster (West Bromwich Albion), Joe Hart (Manchester City)
Defenders: Leighton Baines (Everton), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Calum Chambers (Arsenal), Phil Jagielka (Everton), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Danny Rose (Tottenham Hotspur), John Stones (Everton)
Midfielders: Jack Colback (Newcastle United), Fabian Delph (Aston Villa), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), James Milner (Manchester City), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Arsenal) Raheem Sterling (Liverpool), Andros Townsend (Tottenham Hotspur), Jack Wilshere (Arsenal)
Forwards: Rickie Lambert (Liverpool), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Danny Welbeck (Manchester United)

You know, such a squad does not fill me to the brim with optimism!

Best side we can muster out of that, assuming Roy takes a 4-2-3-1 shape, would probably be:

Hart, Stones, Jagielka, Cahill, Baines, Henderson, Wilshere, Sterling, Rooney, Oxlade, and Sturridge.

[CaledonianCraig]

Bannan impressed me on occasion under Pulis. He could have been an ideal replacement. But he hasn't had the game time for palace. I think he has played two halves of PL football this year.

Bannan needs first team football. He had his share of great games for Villa as well so he has proven he can live at EPL level as have many of our players. I was in Dortmund and in the first 45 minutes he was the pick of our side.

[dummy_half]

I've seen a comment on here about Rooney scoring lots of goals against minnows in qualifying, the implication being him taking the record from Charlton would be diminished/undeserved.

32 of Bobby Charlton's goals were in friendlies (compared to 14 now for Rooney). This included hat-tricks in games where England put 8 past the USA, Mexico and Switzerland.

So Bobby Charlton scored a number of cheap goals himself - arguably cheaper than anything Rooney gets as international football is overall a greater quality now.

I would rate Charlton as an all-time great, Rooney in the bracket below, but Rooney will certainly be worthy of the record should he get it.

Trying to judge how great a player is just from their goal scoring record in internationals is something of a waste of time. Rooney has a pretty good strike rate, especially for someone who has played much of his career as a support forward, and we should all congratulate him when he passes Charlton's England record. The difference in legacy is significant though - Charlton's most important goals got England into the 1966 World Cup Final and he was a key part of both England's only world cup winning side and of a Man U team that was as good as any in Europe in the late 60s. It's no surprise he is now viewed as a legend of the game. Oh, and both contribute(d) a lot more to all-round team play than Lineker, who was first and foremost an excellent goal scoring centre forward.

By comparison, Rooney has achieved similar at club level in Europe, although undoubtedly playing second fiddle to Ronaldo for Man U, and hasn't had a big success in an international tournament since the 2004 Euros. In my opinion, a good international player but a level or so down from genuinely world class.

[mystiroakey]

I just heard that England will be playing france and germany before the Euro finals.

So that could be the best preparation possible.

Nothing is going to be perfect - but those will be the favs for the tourny. so we cant do much better than that

[mystiroakey]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9569960/england-set-up-pre-euro-2016-friendlies-against-germany-and-france

[Stella]

We've qualified already then?

[mystiroakey]

We've qualified already then?

yeah i think you could back your mortgage on it pal, i doubt any bookie would take the bet mind(well bar anything less than the base bank interest rate anyway)

[Stella]

We've qualified already then?

yeah i think you could back your mortgage on it pal

Be a tad disappointed if it all went wrong now. Looking forward to it already. Think we will do ok this time.

[VTR]

I've seen a comment on here about Rooney scoring lots of goals against minnows in qualifying, the implication being him taking the record from Charlton would be diminished/undeserved.

32 of Bobby Charlton's goals were in friendlies (compared to 14 now for Rooney). This included hat-tricks in games where England put 8 past the USA, Mexico and Switzerland.

So Bobby Charlton scored a number of cheap goals himself - arguably cheaper than anything Rooney gets as international football is overall a greater quality now.

I would rate Charlton as an all-time great, Rooney in the bracket below, but Rooney will certainly be worthy of the record should he get it.

Trying to judge how great a player is just from their goal scoring record in internationals is something of a waste of time. Rooney has a pretty good strike rate, especially for someone who has played much of his career as a support forward, and we should all congratulate him when he passes Charlton's England record. The difference in legacy is significant though - Charlton's most important goals got England into the 1966 World Cup Final and he was a key part of both England's only world cup winning side and of a Man U team that was as good as any in Europe in the late 60s. It's no surprise he is now viewed as a legend of the game. Oh, and both contribute(d) a lot more to all-round team play than Lineker, who was first and foremost an excellent goal scoring centre forward.

By comparison, Rooney has achieved similar at club level in Europe, although undoubtedly playing second fiddle to Ronaldo for Man U, and hasn't had a big success in an international tournament since the 2004 Euros. In my opinion, a good international player but a level or so down from genuinely world class.

Agree with all that. Especially that Rooney should be congratulated for getting the record - though there will be plenty who will not citing cheap goals etc, exactly something you could level at Charlton (and Linekar I guess, though I haven't looked up his stats).

It's obvious Charlton is a far greater player overall, a legend of the World game not just England. Much as I doubt anyone would be fooled into thinking Miroslav Klose is the greatest German player ever!

[Stella]

Rooney does have time to change all that. He's still got at least two tournaments left in him, whilst still playing at what might be his peak.

[Duty281]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

It is you who needs a reality check.

We narrowly lost away to the world champions (something England can only dream of being) we have beaten Croatia twice and won away in Macedonia and Poland (friendly) so spare me the lecture on our crapness as our recent results and performances (last night aside) suggests otherwise. Is it an excuse saying we played crap when we did? The friendly excuse was already being lined up pre-match by one of your own (Duty) so spare me that one eh?

If your team puts in a sub-par performance against a decent international side - invariably you lose and that is what happened last night. We have our weaknesses in areas that need working on (who doesn't) such as finding more options up front as we missed Fletcher last night, also need to cut out sloppy defending as that costs you games. However, to try to judge us on the back of one friendly and disregard the past year and a half of form is wholly wrong.

Your logic is rather all over the place, Craig.

Last year when England played poorly against Scotland, and only narrowly won, you were saying how this proved that England were a poor international side, and how they would struggle to qualify for the World Cup on the basis of that friendly.

Now Scotland have played poorly, apparently you are not allowed to judge on the back of one friendly, and it does not matter in the wider context?

It would be the latter example I agree with, but an abundant lack of consistency on your part is clear to see.

[mystiroakey]

I haven't judged Scotland on one game anyway. I am judging them on there players week in week out form and the teams they play for(its in the post for all to see!!), Scotland's form, there oppositions form and other factors. But look I dont want to bring all that up again.

My point was quite simple. If you want to beat a better team than you - you have to do it tactically- dont con yourself into believing you can go toe to toe and try and out play them.

[GSC]

Both of you, from experience, arguing with Craig is a complete waste of time.

He starts making up points to answer after a while

[VTR]

My point was quite simple. If you want to  beat a better team than you - you have to do it tactically- dont con yourself into believing you can go toe to toe and try and out play them.

This is absolutely correct and I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise. When England next play Brazil/Germany/Spain etc. we have to be prepared to do the same - may or may not work but would leave us with a chance of nicking the game 1-0, than losing say 4-2 in a thriller.

[super_realist]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

Behave Oakey, Germany (on form), Argentina,Brazil,  Spain etc are top premiership equivalents.

England are something like a lower mid premership level like a West Ham or Villa, Scotland are somewhere around the lower top third mark in the Championship. Big gap, granted, but ENgland are nowhere near the top of any comparison.

[CaledonianCraig]

I haven't judged Scotland on one game anyway. I am judging them on there players week in week out form and the teams they play for(its in the post for all to see!!), Scotland's form, there oppositions form and other factors. But look I dont want to bring all that up again.

My point was quite simple. If you want to  beat a better team than you - you have to do it tactically- dont con yourself into believing you can go toe to toe and try and out play them.

You evidently are judging them on one game - that is evidently clear or at least putting more stock on this one game. You speak of form and our form is that we have lost one competitive game in around a year and a half (if memory serves) against teams far from mugs in international football however you want to demean those sides one of which were world champions who we narrowly lost against despite having ten men and remember those games were all competitive matches unlike last night.

As for teams they play for I don't really see the relevance. True a lot of our side play in the Championship (that played last night) but many of them are proven top flight players such as Maloney (Celtic, Wigan and Champions League experience), Marshall (Celtic, Champions League experience and Cardiff where I do believe he was voted best keeper in the EPL last season) and Russell Martin (EPL experience with Norwich). In any case what club a player represents means nothing in terms of what they can/do produce for their country and I speak of all countries where that is the case. In Scotland's case in the past we had the likes of Hansen, Nicol and Gillespie in the all conquering Liverpool teams but largely were poor for Scotland, McAllister was a success wherever he went in England but never really hit the heights for us as is the case with Adam who played for Liverpool. Also we had Steve Archibald at Barcelona but never did it for Scotland really. Conversely, we have had players with precious little top flight experience who put in great displays for us out-shining players with top flight experience such as Graham Alexander so what club a player plays for does not always translate into international quality players. Case in fact was Healey of Northern Ireland who is their record goalscorer but don't think he ever played in the top flight.

I am not kidding myself that we have some way to go in our progression like increasing strength in depth in some areas and polishing up our defending but considering where we are now compared to where we were under Levein is like comparing night and day and our results prove we are playing to a system that works for us but for it to work it needs good performances from everyone in the side and that was far from there last night. As for going toe to toe with you we can do it if we play well enough as the first half an hour or so displayed.

[CaledonianCraig]

Both of you, from experience, arguing with Craig is a complete waste of time.

He starts making up points to answer after a while

And you stand alone in F1 arguments over funding even when all other posters tell you otherwise as do experts who have and do work in F1. Keep it up.

[CaledonianCraig]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

It is you who needs a reality check.

We narrowly lost away to the world champions (something England can only dream of being) we have beaten Croatia twice and won away in Macedonia and Poland (friendly) so spare me the lecture on our crapness as our recent results and performances (last night aside) suggests otherwise. Is it an excuse saying we played crap when we did? The friendly excuse was already being lined up pre-match by one of your own (Duty) so spare me that one eh?

If your team puts in a sub-par performance against a decent international side - invariably you lose and that is what happened last night. We have our weaknesses in areas that need working on (who doesn't) such as finding more options up front as we missed Fletcher last night, also need to cut out sloppy defending as that costs you games. However, to try to judge us on the back of one friendly and disregard the past year and a half of form is wholly wrong.

Your logic is rather all over the place, Craig.

Last year when England played poorly against Scotland, and only narrowly won, you were saying how this proved that England were a poor international side, and how they would struggle to qualify for the World Cup on the basis of that friendly.

Now Scotland have played poorly, apparently you are not allowed to judge on the back of one friendly, and it does not matter in the wider context?

It would be the latter example I agree with, but an abundant lack of consistency on your part is clear to see.

Well it would seem you are not one to offer logic here - if you are trying to take something out of what you called yesterday 'a meaningless friendly'. Have you ever seen Rooney celebrate a goal in a friendly with a cartwheel? That alone shows how much it meant to the England players. Did make me laugh - the delusional England supporters last night claiming this was our cup final. Really? That was last Friday and we won.

You won comprehensively last night I have said that but some here are jizzing off on it which I find odd. Yesterday on this thread we were minnows so why so delirious with a win over such minnows that were well below their recent par. I cannot say how well England played as I don't follow them but by all reports I have read this was their best performance since the World Cup whilst I do follow Scotland and you may say I am biased (as England fans are) but results and previous performances back things up when I say we were way below par for us hence the scoreline. It is not rocket science is it?

[super_realist]

Calm down Craig, Scotland were beaten by a better team, not a massively better team, but they were comfortably beaten.

No one is convinced that England are a top team, and no one is saying that Scotland are rubbish.

England at best are tournament also-rans, Scotland are World Cup qualifying makeweight and potential European Championship qualifiers.

That's it.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The wonders of English football fans. Rooney captains England against Scotland, man of the match and scores two goals. But its just used to criticise him for scoring against minnows. 7 in his last 7 starts is pretty good

[CaledonianCraig]

The wonders of English football fans. Rooney captains England against Scotland, man of the match and scores two goals. But its just used to criticise him for scoring against minnows. 7 in his last 7 starts is pretty good

Every set of fans need a scapegoat. I think that once Rooney has retired is when they'll recognise his quality. Our fans are the same to varying degree with our players - it happens.

[monty junior]

Disgusting performance.

England completely deserved to win and they were clincial, we were poor going forward and those last two goals were woeful defending, even the first one. But who else do we have to bring in at CB, really a major area of weakness.

[Hammersmith harrier]

There is a big big gulf in class between the English and Scottish players, only a Scot would try to suggest otherwise. Surprisingly though there were only two champions league winners on show but eight of the English starters play for what are fairly big teams in Europe. No disrespect to Celtic but only Darren Fletcher plays at that level and unfortunately his illness has destroyed his form. There are probably a fair few players who individually cost more than the whole Scottish team.

As for Rooney, he'll deserve the scoring record when he gets it but he hasn't produced performances approaching the level of Bobby Charlton and falls well short of Linekar when it comes to world cup goals and important ones too.

[Guest]

But who else do we have to bring in at CB, really a major area of weakness.

I'd give Steven Caldwell a ring

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Disgusting performance.

England completely deserved to win and they were clincial, we were poor going forward and those last two goals were woeful defending, even the first one. But who else do we have to bring in at CB, really a major area of weakness.

Russell Martin is twice the player of Steven Whittaker when he plays RB. No idea why Whittaker plays RB when Martin does a lot better

[mystiroakey]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

Behave Oakey, Germany (on form), Argentina,Brazil,  Spain etc are top premiership equivalents.

England are something like a lower mid premership level like a West Ham or Villa, Scotland are somewhere around the lower top third mark in the Championship. Big gap, granted, but ENgland are nowhere near the top of any comparison.

you have missed the point.

our players play at top pl clubs, scotlands play at championship level

i am not using the premier league as a simile to the international game- just giving an exact level of ability of the teams.

If you wanna talk about spain and germany - Just look at bayern and barca - both are better than any PL club.

England would be comparable to Arsrnal at present.

[CaledonianCraig]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

Behave Oakey, Germany (on form), Argentina,Brazil,  Spain etc are top premiership equivalents.

England are something like a lower mid premership level like a West Ham or Villa, Scotland are somewhere around the lower top third mark in the Championship. Big gap, granted, but ENgland are nowhere near the top of any comparison.

you have missed the point.

our players play at top pl clubs, scotlands play at championship level

i am not using the premier league as a simile to the international game- just giving an exact level of ability of the teams.

If you wanna talk about spain and germany - Just look at bayern and barca - both are better than any PL club.

England would be comparable to Arsrnal at present.

No not Arsenal as at least they tend to get through the group stages in the Champions League. More like a Besiktas.

[mystiroakey]

Half the team is arsenal and the others are comparible if not better . again you are missing the point being made. It isn't rocket science . I am talking about the quality of the team not a direct similie of club to international football. What's hard to understand?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The arsenal comparison is pretty apt, when the going gets tough like Arsenal England go missing 

But like arsenal the talent is there

[mystiroakey]

At the moment(this year) it is very comparable despite the fact I was just talking on paper.

We are flat track bullies. Beating everything worse than us but not raising our game to compariable-better teams like Italy and uruaguay.

[CaledonianCraig]

Half the team is arsenal and the others are comparible if not better  . again you are missing the point being made. It isn't rocket science . I am talking about the quality of the team not a direct similie of club to international football. What's hard to understand?

Ah right I see but only Wellbeck I'd say are first team regulars for them and Walcott was when fit. Oxlade Chamberlain and Wilshere are more squad members. And again what club they play for often matters not one jot about players international quality. Ask England supporters who barrack Rooney even when United ruled the roost. I put more stock on their international form than the clubs they play for as that is all that matters.

[Brys]

Disgusting performance.

England completely deserved to win and they were clincial, we were poor going forward and those last two goals were woeful defending, even the first one. But who else do we have to bring in at CB, really a major area of weakness.

Russell Martin is twice the player of Steven Whittaker when he plays RB. No idea why Whittaker plays RB when Martin does a lot better

The reason we play him at CB is as simple as he's currently our best CB, if we had other options in that area we possible would have moved him out to the right. The only other issue is Hutton who is starting to play again and offers us some penetration going forward, Whittaker basically covers RB/LB positions when people are injured or we have nothing in that position (LB being an example till recent emergence of Robertson). In the end Martin is an obvious choice for CB, its the position that makes more sense for him at International level as things stand.

I'm not going to get into the phallus measuring going on about who can make themselves feel bigger after such a result for whatever reasons, I will comment on the game though. I thought England played very well especially the pressure without the ball side of the game and its the first time in a while I can remember them playing with such intensity. I do still think the are a little pedestrian at times with what to do with the final ball, yes they scored three but Scotland were gifting them chances through out the game. Against teams who have well organised defences for the full game they are gonna need to up their tempo or Wiltshire on top form really pulling the strings. The midfield is looking better since the WC but I'm not sure the balance has been found in there and its gonna be difficult to get that with the nature of the fixtures that are still to come.

As for Scotland well we were poor though a portion of that was down to the high pressure England applied of the ball, we just didn't expect it I know I certainly didn't. Its something we need to work on which is always a positive, its the games that you learn nothing from that are the issue. There did look like tired legs and heads out there at times after Friday, as even not under pressure we made silly passes setting up breakaways. Again this is something we need to work on as 3 days rest needs to be enough time to recover for big games if the players are serious about competing in WC/EC.

I like the fixture and hope its here to stay I think both teams benefit from it in different ways and no matter what some people say its a little bit of rivalry, good banter and it matters to both sides. I look forward to the next encounter

[Lowlandbrit]

We are flat track bullies. Beating everything worse than us but not raising our game to compariable-better teams like Italy

Well, good news there at least: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30117365

[Mad for Chelsea]

Half the team is arsenal and the others are comparible if not better  . again you are missing the point being made. It isn't rocket science . I am talking about the quality of the team not a direct similie of club to international football. What's hard to understand?

Ah right I see but only Wellbeck I'd say are first team regulars for them and Walcott was when fit. Oxlade Chamberlain and Wilshere are more squad members. And again what club they play for often matters not one jot about players international quality. Ask England supporters who barrack Rooney even when United ruled the roost. I put more stock on their international form than the clubs they play for as that is all that matters.

Wilshere and Gibbs are both first choice starters for Arsenal certainly. In fact all England's guaranteed starters currently would be first-choice for their clubs: Hart, Clyde, Cahill, Jagielka/Smalling, Gibbs/Shaw/Baines, Wilshere, Sterling, Rooney, Wellbeck - with the caveit that England's midfield isn't all that settled: I'll give you that Ox, Millner and Lallana are squad players who start a few games but wouldn't necessarily be first-choices, others such as Downing, Delph and Barkley are, but obviously at "lesser" clubs.

[mystiroakey]

Chambers is also first choice for Arsernal but like gibbs not first choice for England.

[Duty281]

The gulf is pretty big mate- we are the equivalent of a top level pl team and Scotland are a top championship team at best.

so as i have said as a palace fan who supports a team on a very similar level to Scotland(and yeah we can score goals against better teams- that happens every week in the PL- i dont understand what you are talking about in fairness, and heck i think you used Barry Bannan for more minutes in that one game than we have all season!!)- You need to understand who you are and play accordingly if you want to out score a better team or draw against a better team.

you are just making excuses up. "oh we played rubbish", oh we were tired, oh it was a friendly" . No its Reality check time pal..you are just not good enough to try and play expansive football against us.

If you try and play football against a better footballing side you will get beaten 9 out of 10 times if not more.

It is you who needs a reality check.

We narrowly lost away to the world champions (something England can only dream of being) we have beaten Croatia twice and won away in Macedonia and Poland (friendly) so spare me the lecture on our crapness as our recent results and performances (last night aside) suggests otherwise. Is it an excuse saying we played crap when we did? The friendly excuse was already being lined up pre-match by one of your own (Duty) so spare me that one eh?

If your team puts in a sub-par performance against a decent international side - invariably you lose and that is what happened last night. We have our weaknesses in areas that need working on (who doesn't) such as finding more options up front as we missed Fletcher last night, also need to cut out sloppy defending as that costs you games. However, to try to judge us on the back of one friendly and disregard the past year and a half of form is wholly wrong.

Your logic is rather all over the place, Craig.

Last year when England played poorly against Scotland, and only narrowly won, you were saying how this proved that England were a poor international side, and how they would struggle to qualify for the World Cup on the basis of that friendly.

Now Scotland have played poorly, apparently you are not allowed to judge on the back of one friendly, and it does not matter in the wider context?

It would be the latter example I agree with, but an abundant lack of consistency on your part is clear to see.

Well it would seem you are not one to offer logic here - if you are trying to take something out of what you called yesterday 'a meaningless friendly'. Have you ever seen Rooney celebrate a goal in a friendly with a cartwheel? That alone shows how much it meant to the England players. Did make me laugh - the delusional England supporters last night claiming this was our cup final. Really? That was last Friday and we won.

You won comprehensively last night I have said that but some here are jizzing off on it which I find odd. Yesterday on this thread we were minnows so why so delirious with a win over such minnows that were well below their recent par. I cannot say how well England played as I don't follow them but by all reports I have read this was their best performance since the World Cup whilst I do follow Scotland and you may say I am biased (as England fans are) but results and previous performances back things up when I say we were way below par for us hence the scoreline. It is not rocket science is it?

I think Rooney celebrated in an exuberant fashion simply because it was a near-perfect passing move and he timed his run perfectly. That was a superb goal to score: regardless of whether you are playing Spain, Scotland or Estonia.

I do not see any...erm...jizzing over the win, and nor am I am delirious with the win. I am happy that a few of England's players did well individually, and that the boring Tartan Army, with their inane, tedious anti-English ranting, were completely out-sung on their own turf.

Was it England's best performance since the World Cup? No, that would probably be Switzerland. Difficult to judge on the other performances, as Estonia, San Marino and Slovenia packed ten men behind the ball. Scotland, to their credit, did try and play football.

[CaledonianCraig]

Duty do me a favour eh? The England support are the pits. True the hooligan element has been suppressed but the support still reeks of obnoxiousness. I have witnessed support from Ireland and England in the past week and Irish supporters stick to supporting their team vocally whilst the English spent most of the night singing mainly non relevant provocative stuff like anti-Strachan songs, anti-IRA songs perhaps densely believing it would provoke trouble being it was at a ground with Irish connections and juvenile independence vote songs interlaced with the only chant you seem to have to support your team - Eng-er-land.

In terms of team-wise you have strongest in the British Isles but your Neanderthal support still live in the dark provocative ages and are the worst in the British Isles for obnoxiousness.

[super_realist]

Grow up Craig.

England and Scotland are both insignificant make weight teams.

Scotland fans are no more respectful of the English than the English are about the Scots.

[mystiroakey]

What does Craig expect. They boo GSTQ. I am not a fan of the anthem and I am sure if the england fans had a Democratic vote . Jerusalem would be our anthem. But there majority of fans started any unsavoury behaviour.

Scotland didn't boo the ROI's anthem.

What does scotland expect after booing the other team from the off.

The odd banter song like 'you'r British till you die' I find funny anyway . anyone that doesn't lacks a SOH.

[super_realist]

It's all just pantomime cheering.
Craig just sounds like a typical bitter and negative Scotsman.

England are better than Scotland, surprise surprise.

If Scotland had won, I doubt he'd be caring about the songs being sung by the English. There were only 5000 of them there, surely it's the fault of the Scotland fans for not being louder than them?

[mystiroakey]

Yep fan banter is fan banter. However close to the bone it gets.

The worst behaviour by the fans over the fixtures was the Scottish fans booing of mcgready for choosing Ireland. The hypocrisy when both teams have so many English born players. Would we ever boo an English born player ?

Anyway we are making progress . only a 10th of the arrests occurred over the last fixture in 1999. So we should All be happy that the hooligan element is waning.

[CaledonianCraig]

What does Craig expect. They  boo GSTQ. I am not a fan of the anthem and I am sure if the england fans had a Democratic vote . Jerusalem would be our anthem. But there majority of fans started any unsavoury behaviour.

Scotland didn't boo the ROI's anthem.

What does scotland expect after booing the other team from the off.

The odd banter song like 'you'r British till you die' I find funny anyway . anyone that doesn't lacks a SOH.

I take it you never watched the Wembley match? Flower of Scotland was roundly booed - respect begets respect.

And as I sense this will turn into a bit about my anti-Englishness it is not. The Barmy Army (England's cricket supporters) are in my opinion the best cricket fans in the world. Great fun and there for the occasion and regardless of the result they maintain respect - that is support.

I was in Dortmund but did the vast Tartan Army break into 'The Dambusters March'? Of course not but that is England fans stock song V Germany - again seeking provokation. Last Friday Scots fand booed McGeady (a Scot who chose to play for Ireland) but that was it. No chorus labelling him an Irish b******* and telling him to cheer up like we had from England fans - again provocative. Scotland fans have won awards for their behaviour whereas England fans have been banned in the past.

Do England's fans show grace in victory and defeat - absolutely not. It is a trait they could do with learning.

[super_realist]

Craig, who give a toss if someone boo's an anthem. It's hardly offensive is it?
I'm Scottish but I absolutely hate the Scottish anthem, it deserves to be booed for being such a dirge.

If you think the Scots do nothing but boo, and don't aim personal insults at players then you've never been to a Scotland match.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Oh do behave, are you seriously complaining cos England fans gave strachan some stick? The English fans did well, they were loud all night and good on them. I do find it odd that a song that denigrates terrorists causes such a fuss. Frak the IRA

[CaledonianCraig]

Craig, who give a toss if someone boo's an anthem. It's hardly offensive is it?
I'm Scottish but I absolutely hate the Scottish anthem, it deserves to be booed for being such a dirge.

If you think the Scots do nothing but boo, and don't aim personal insults at players then you've never been to a Scotland match.

They don't sing provocative songs put it that way. Of course they boo - every supporter in the world boos. That is not the issue here. The issue is about nasty, provocative chants that is more like anti-support than pro-support as in it is looking for negative reaction from opposite supporters instead of them purely singing in support of their team. Last Friday McGeady was booed but that was it. No rendition when we scored of 'Cheer up Aiden McGeady etc etc etc...' just songs about Scotland whereas all we got from England supporters were the opposite.

I will say again they have the best side in Britain but their supporters are the pits.

[super_realist]

Of course Scotland sing provocative songs. Have you never heard them change the words of Flower of Scotland?


There are too many syllables in Aiden McGeady for it to fit into the "cheerup" song anyway.

[mystiroakey]

So this debate has turned from a footballing one to a fan one.

'We have better fans than you'

Is this the new argument?

I am sorry to state the obvious but there are ten time more English and 10 times more well behaved fans this side of border but also 10 times the amount of unsavoury as well.

But get over the fan banter. Your fans are just as guilty. If they are guilty of anything.. Its part of the atmosphere . don't be so sensitive.

[GSC]

I did warn you all not to bother...

[CaledonianCraig]

Oh do behave, are you seriously complaining cos England fans gave strachan some stick? The English fans did well, they were loud all night and good on them. I do find it odd that a song that denigrates terrorists causes such a fuss. Frak the IRA

I don't really have a problem with it per se but explain the relevance of it please to a game between Scotland and England other than it sung to be provocative as is the Strachan stuff and the independence stuff - all anti-support and nothing at all to be proud about. No doubt if a German flag had been in evidence 'The Dambusters March' would have been wheeled out. I have been to international games for many years and England are the only support to behave in such a manner and it just harbours nastiness and won't win friends inside and outside the ground. They should be sent on a training course on how to behave with members of The Barmy Army teaching them.

[super_realist]

Well Craig, I've been to Scotland matches and heard many a provocative and unpleasant song/comment so it seems you just have selective, rose tinted hearing.

Do you think Strachan cares about a song? Of course not, why would anyone SCottish take offence to a song about Independence or the lack of it?

Grow up Craig, you sound like a berk.

[CaledonianCraig]

So this debate has turned from a footballing one to a fan one.

'We have better fans than you'

Is this the new argument?

I am sorry to state the obvious but there are ten time more English and 10 times more well behaved fans this side of border but also 10 times the amount of unsavoury as well.

But get over the fan banter. Your fans are just as guilty. If they are guilty of anything.. Its part of the atmosphere . don't be so sensitive.

Banter is fine but when it is taken too far it just becomes unpleasant and nasty - a bit akin to playground bullying if you will. Stick to vocally supporting your own team more and less about winding up opposing supporters. Some will take it with a pinch of salt of course but others will take offence - perhaps it explains why violence had followed their supporters around until the FA took away passports. And of course there will be a well-behaved element there but sadly it is seemingly usurped by the knuckle-draggers and it just does not make for a pleasant atmosphere. Like I said they should take a leaf out of the Barmy Army's book and yes they are English.

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