Munster Coaches Accidentally Send Document Criticising Munster Players to Munster Players

First topic message reminder :

As E-mail blunders go, this is a good one!

Irish Independent wrote:MUNSTER have played down the effect of a highly sensitive and critical player review document which was accidentally distributed to the whole squad last week.

On Wednesday, the report, detailing comments on each player, was emailed to all squad members. Some of the comments were highly critical, and, in a couple of instances, personalised, the Sunday Independent understands.

The document also revealed through colour-coding whether the management considered each player to be first choice or second choice and, in the case of one player, questioned why he was even in the squad at all. It is understood the issue of contracts was also mentioned.

“It was an attachment to a weekly schedule and it was not supposed to go out,” a senior source in Munster said yesterday.

“But it’s not a crisis or anything like it. The senior players met to talk about it, and, yes, it might have been hurtful to one or two players, but we’ve moved on.

“We’ve spoken to the players, and the vast majority have accepted it was a mistake and have put it behind us. In no way did it have any negative effect on the way we played last night (against London Irish on Friday) — maybe the opposite in that they pulled together.”

The source, who did not wish to be named, declined to mention those players for whom it may still be an issue.

He also denied that a senior player had been accused in the document, which he said was updated on a weekly basis, of being on “a gravy train”, and that another was classed as “mentally weak”.

“Anthony (Foley) spoke to the group and said that it is what it is and it shouldn’t have happened, rather than try to cowpat the players,” the source added.

Inescapably, it makes for a difficult start to Foley’s tenure as head coach, having succeeded Rob Penney after two seasons as his assistant.

Munster have also parted company with their head of fitness Adam Trypas, who took up the role in January.

He will be succeeded by Aled Walters, the senior strength and conditioning coach, who is going into his third season with the province.

Just like David O'Doherty sang really

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzvZnb5fXoo

I'm not sure if this thread tells me more about the incompetence of the computer skills of the Munster coaches or Sins 'one eyed' approach to Munster criticism.

I think we need the season to start - sooner the better.

Corcioch isn't in the know? He seemed fairly definite.

And why is it not worth starting a tthread on something you force into threads like this one? It clearly vexes you.

He actually quoted from it, in fact.

It tells you a lot about both, lets be fair. The thing that annoys me about this is Munster aren't ligends, they are normal human beings, even if they are competitive and highly achieving. They are not made out of anything different to players at any other club.

So of course players are going to be upset over a man sausage-up like this. Of course its not a good thing for morale. If it happened in any workplace there would be some serious fallout. The Munster lads aren't going to just come into work and mutter some nonsense platitudes about the Munster way and guys getting kicked up the yard and sure isn't it great the coaches don't take any shoite. They'll be peed off. By the same token, the players who count the most for them are those who are highest rated so it won't do much damage to them. And being competitive the players who are being talked down will want to prove a point.

Apart from that one guy who is mentally weak. He'll probably go off and sulk

There would absolutely be the same things being said behind the scenes amongst any coaching staff in the league, make no mistake about it. I'd be quite interested to see the Ulster coaches private take on the likes of Mike McComish. But if they sent an e-mail with those thoughts to the rest of the squad, jesus that would be a massive feck-up.

This thread is why I haven't posted in a long time and why I won't be again. It's a shambles and no one wants to deal with posters who drag threads off topics with their nonsense. Been the same way for years now. But then maybe its the Ulsterman in me (proverbially speaking of course. That time me and Stephen Ferris spent rolling around the fields of Naboo will always be special to me) blaming the mods/management. There comes a point when you have to ask yourself why we are losing posters. We can't have even a semblance of a debate which involves Ireland or the provinces with certain posters about. It used to be mildly entertaining. Now it's just sad, and a good advert for using protection. Someone really should have told mummy Sin that when she was told by Moss Keane that she couldn't get pregnant standing up (it's gravity bejaysus) she was fed a bowl of horse apples.

Cheerio lads. Good luck to all the provinces this season and Ireland for the Six Nations and World Cup.

Ah for f.... sake...summer is over then....

Read the report on the leak and had already forgotten about it until I decided to log on here. After reading Copelands interview in the ST today which basically says how much more serious the Munster set up is compared to Cardiff and that there is nowhere to hide.......nothing much different...

Cant see the point in attacking Sin É hooky its not exactly mind blowing what he is suggesting in relation to the other arguments being put forward.

Don Alfonso wrote:Corcioch isn't in the know? He seemed fairly definite.

And why is it not worth starting a tthread on something you force into threads like this one? It clearly vexes you.

No he is not. Burgers is the poster on Munsterfans that has very good contacts within the Munster squad.

This is what he posted:

I,ve asked about and have also been advised that nobody was referred to as mentally weak or on a gravy train.

Fanning is either misinformed or using artistic license.

Quote Originally Posted by Grandpasimpson View Post
Nothing to see here, move on then?
That,s pretty much what i,ve been told. Some annoyed understandbly. Mentions of contract etc are apparently public knowledge anyway.

Anybody read the alleged short excerpts of this doing the rounds?

Poor aul' Munster backs.

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering,  unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

This is clearly a dastardly northern plot to undermine Munster's new coach and the self-styled best supporters in the world. Why else was Les Kiss sent up north except to undermine Munster and why did Humphries feel obliged to flee the island. Don't ever call me a consipracy theorist but.......if you join up all the dots there is a Baldrickian cunning plan there somewhere

I heard Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are due to amalgamate, and be retitled"The Good Guys".

Minster are to have a name change as well

Munster! There's irony for ya...

Don Alfonso wrote:Anybody read the alleged short excerpts of this doing the rounds?

Poor aul' Munster backs.

Nope.

Don Alfonso wrote:Anybody read the alleged short excerpts of this doing the rounds?

Poor aul' Munster backs.

Got a link? You keep that kind of analysis in-house. The situation is a debacle and the fact it is out beyond the club is also a cause of concern.

I'd wonder as well how accurate or constructive analysis such as 'on the gravy train' is for a coaching set up in evaluating/monitoring a player.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Anybody read the alleged short excerpts of this doing the rounds?

Poor aul' Munster backs.

Got a link?  You keep that kind of analysis in-house. The situation is a debacle and the fact it is out beyond the club is also a cause of concern.

I'd wonder as well how accurate or constructive analysis such as 'on the gravy train' is for a coaching set up in evaluating/monitoring a player.

Murray Kinsella and two posters on Munsterfans who have seen the documents say that the term 'on the gravy train' was not used.

brennomac wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering,  unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

This is clearly a dastardly northern plot to undermine Munster's new coach and the self-styled best supporters in the world.  Why else was Les Kiss sent up north except to undermine Munster and why did Humphries feel obliged to flee the island.  Don't ever call me a consipracy theorist but.......if you join up all the dots there is a Baldrickian cunning plan there somewhere

thescore.ie have similar thoughts on Ulster:

Coaching upheaval

Player power can work wonders in uniting a group, reinforcing the theory that they are putting bodies on the line for a single collective purpose. Sometimes, though, it can go a little bit awry.

Whatever negative traits senior Ulster players seen in Mark Anscombe it’s hard to escape the feeling that this is a team that could really benefit with some strong leadership coming from the top.

The loss of David Humphreys before Anscombe means that the steady structure behind so much of the northern province’s recent rise to prominence has been demolished.

If the ticket of Neil Doak, Jonny Bell, Allen Clarke and Les Kiss prove successful, Doak could well earn a promotion to the top job. If it’s rough going between now and Christmas though, how long will it be before CEO Shane Logan finds a permanent head coach?

Certainly Kinsella saw part of the document.

If you root around, you can find what I have -I ccan't swear to it's veracity.

But there's reports on at least two Munster backs who appear to be wasting their time there. And that's out of six mentioned by name.

Don Alfonso wrote:Certainly Kinsella saw part of the document.

If you root around,  you can find what I have -I ccan't swear to it's veracity.

But there's reports on at least two Munster backs who appear to be wasting their time there. And that's out of six mentioned by name.

Have you seen the phrase 'gravy train' used about a player?

(I certainly would question why 2 or 3 players are still with Munster (considering the number of good backs Munster have). This isn't to say that they wouldn't be good enough at another club, just that Munster have brought through a fair few backs recently.

I haven't.

I've seen a least one phrase which is worse.

It's out there.

Go rummaging.

I don't want to particularly see the document. To me it would be like opening a letter that is addressed to someone else.

Thanks for confirming that you have not come across the term 'gravy train'.

No worries.

Also, according to the depth chart, the two players who have the worst write-ups are second choice in their positions.

So not really fringe, then.

Don Alfonso wrote:Also, according to the depth chart,  the two players who have the worst write-ups are second choice in their positions.

So not really fringe, then.

Could be worse, they could be first choice players!

Only question marks are really over who will be playing in the centre next season (though Axel has says that Bleyenthaal will be playing 12 when he comes).

In all seriousness I do hope Munster put this episode behind them and have a great season.

Theres a pic up on PR that shows part of it. I don'y know if its true or not (it goes into great detail) but in that Ivan Dineen and Johne Murphy don't come out of it well.

As much as I enjoying rattling Sin's cage, my heart will go out to either of those lads if they make an obvious mistake playing away to one of the other provinces. The other supporters will be brutal.

Whats interesting is that Denis Hurley is seen as the best option at 12. Now it's in the public domain, if your the Edinburgh coach you've got some good info on the team likely to start- and what the Munster coaches think their weaknesses are.

It'll be interesting to know now that the full document is online if coaches of other sides facing Munster surreptitiously seek it out, its already out of date but it's very helpful stuff. That said nothing that couldn't be determined through thorough video analysis but time saved identifying these things for yourself...

Is the full document online?

I do agree - I think the players have actually been compromised by this.

I have only see that part. Its more serious than what they were saying on Munster fans. Should be interesting to see how the team responds. If players don't perform theres a big squad there and they'll slip down the pecking order. I'd say thats what'll save Foleys bacon!

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/14261/03rd_September_2014_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_3

Skip to the 36th minute. Fanning and Quinlan are on. Fanning calls Foley delusional after Foley said 'there are people out there (referring to Fanning) who want to see us fail' or words to that effect.

Fanning is a complete prat though. The excerpt I saw had enough juicy stuff for his tabloid and he still had to make some stuff up.

Our rugby press on this island are so tame - this is what happens when anyone acts like a proper journo and acts on a source. I think some in the Irish set-up and some fans would rather read a bunch of press releases stapled together.

Notch - someone will have phoned Fanning, summarised it for him, and when he spoke to his Munster source, they played semantics.

Fanning: Does it say someone is mentally weak?
Source: (looking at an entry that says "always loses focus under pressure") I don't see those words anywhere.

Fanning hadn't seen the report, someone paraphrased it for him, then the source played it completely literally in their denial. That's how I read it anyway.

Fanning; "Does the document say that inside the belly of BJ Botha there is a smaller BJ Botha, and inside that BJ Botha.... like, you know, a sort of Russian doll situation?
Source; "Erm... no."

Irish Independent

"Our source denied that one South African prop was described as an elaborate organic Russian doll type oddity! What this means for your weekend on Page 33"

Don Alfonso wrote:Our rugby press on this island are so tame - this is what happens when anyone acts like a proper journo and acts on a source.  I think some in the Irish set-up and some fans would rather read a bunch of press releases stapled together.

Foley is just doing the usual Munster circle the wagons, the whole world is against us, nobody likes us, we're bitter together routine. As per usual.

Sin é wrote:Have you seen the phrase 'gravy train' used about a player?

Not in the bit I've seen but two backs are absolutely torn apart. One guy must be raging because he's described as terrible at handling, making poor defensive reads, lacking acceleration and agility, having poor passing ability under pressure, struggling with functional movement, decision making and the contact area and having a kicking game which is limited and acceptable at best. And then they say he might have reached his ceiling as a player.

Now obviously he has no future at Munster- because he's not gonna turn that around overnight- and he'll find it damn hard to find another club with all of that in the public domain. His coaches have basically criticised every possible element of his game. No-one reading that is going to want to sign him. This might be the way he's learned he's no future in the pro game beyond the end of his contract.

You can see why he might be a upset at his teammates reading that and worse now its online for anyone to read. I'm not putting his name up because ultimately I just feel gutted for the guy. Must be an insurmountable blow to the confidence.

"Struggling with functional movement" made me laugh. A lot.

Foley is right though. There are quite a few people who are delighted this has happened - and why wouldn't Munster's rivals be delighted that this has happened? They are hoping that Munster will crumble and are less competitive next season.

I've seen what has been written (impossible to avoid it at the moment - its all over the internet).

Its a bit late now to be feeling sorry for Ivan & Johne - Don thinks that its great having investigative journalists like Fanning around to dig up Poopie like this and destroy a couple of blokes careers.

Without Fanning, there would not have been a leak. None of us would have known about it.

To the brave and faithful nothing is impossible, even those with jubblies for hands.

Hi Rods, where have you been. Missed you

Sin - what digging did he do?

A loyal son of Minster leaked it. He could have so easily called another journo with it.

Fanning was (gratefully) used by whatever Munster employee leaked it.

Bout ye sin! - been too busy to post lately so decided it was a good time to retire from posting in protest to the RCC replacing the heino and George Hook hanging up the boots.... but when I saw hookie had quit 606 I had to come back to bring some maturity and expertise to the boards.....

I wish my bloody phone would stop auto-correcting "Munster".

You'd never get a phone doing that to Ulster or Leinster.

At least it should auto-correct it to something that makes sense.

Like "car crash".

Or "Gravy Train"

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - what digging did he do?

A loyal son of Minster leaked it. He could have so easily called another journo with it.

Fanning was (gratefully) used by whatever Munster employee leaked it.

Not necessarily a Munster employee. IRFU were in on it as well. There was also a leak the week before about Sexton returning which Mick Dawson was very annoyed about.

Sin é wrote:Foley is right though. There are quite a few people who are delighted this has happened - and why wouldn't Munster's rivals be delighted that this has happened? They are hoping that Munster will crumble and are less competitive next season.

I've seen what has been written (impossible to avoid it at the moment - its all over the internet).

Its a bit late now to be feeling sorry for Ivan & Johne - Don thinks that its great having investigative journalists like Fanning around to dig up Poopie like this and destroy a couple of blokes careers.

Without Fanning, there would not have been a leak. None of us would have known about it.

If not Fanning, the source would have passed it onto another journalist. Don't put the blame entirely on him when the leak came from within the Munster camp. Fanning didn't dig up anything. Someone disgruntled in the Munster camp gave him a phone call. Foley can do the circle the wagons routine but if he's looking for the problem its all in the camp. Some heads may have to roll.

I don't want Munster to crumble for the record. I want an Irish provinces 1-2-3 in the Pro12 this year. But when you hear bland platitudes from coaches and players in the media seeing behind the scenes is too interesting to ignore.

This could have happened to any province btw. If it was Neil Doaks thoughts on McComish and Allen or Leo Cullen on Tom Denton we'd be saying the same things. All the provinces have fringe players who aren't really up to it and the coaches must know it.

rodders wrote:Bout ye sin! - been too busy to post lately so decided it was a good time to retire from posting in protest to the RCC replacing the heino and George Hook hanging up the boots.... but when I saw hookie had quit 606 I had to come back to bring some maturity and expertise to the boards.....

Hookie quit a long time ago! We just had a flashing visit this week. He has gone back to his  darkened cave to stick darts in a doll with a Munster jersey with Sin é across the front of it instead of Bank of Ireland

Oh, and DOD on the back!

Hookie will be back when he runs out of darts....

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Foley is right though. There are quite a few people who are delighted this has happened - and why wouldn't Munster's rivals be delighted that this has happened? They are hoping that Munster will crumble and are less competitive next season.

I've seen what has been written (impossible to avoid it at the moment - its all over the internet).

Its a bit late now to be feeling sorry for Ivan & Johne - Don thinks that its great having investigative journalists like Fanning around to dig up Poopie like this and destroy a couple of blokes careers.

Without Fanning, there would not have been a leak. None of us would have known about it.

If not Fanning, the source would have passed it onto another journalist. Don't put the blame entirely on him when the leak came from within the Munster camp. Fanning didn't dig up anything. Someone disgruntled in the Munster camp gave him a phone call. Foley can do the circle the wagons routine but if he's looking for the problem its all in the camp. Some heads may have to roll.

I don't want Munster to crumble for the record. I want an Irish provinces 1-2-3 in the Pro12 this year. But when you hear bland platitudes from coaches and players in the media seeing behind the scenes is too interesting to ignore.

This could have happened to any province btw. If it was Neil Doaks thoughts on McComish and Allen or Leo Cullen on Tom Denton we'd be saying the same things. All the provinces have fringe players who aren't really up to it and the coaches must know it.

Some journalists have integrity though. The Indo is known for sexing up stories.

By the way, even the Indo are claiming:

''This was no circling of the wagons, instead Munster opted to confront their demons head on.

Foley obviously has identified the problem players in the camp, but I seriously doubt if Murphy sent that email to the Indo. Far more likely it came from someone in the IRFU (who maybe paid to pass on stuff like this to the Indo since both Leinster & Munster have had leaks recently).


United front for Munster after email controversy
Ruaidhri O'Connor

Published 03/09/2014 | 02:30


This was no circling of the wagons, instead Munster opted to confront their demons head on.

Before yesterday's scheduled media briefing in the new 'Dugout' bar beneath Thomond Park, chief executive Garrett Fitzgerald and coach Anthony Foley stood behind a university-style lectern to take questions on the embarrassing email controversy that has threatened to overshadow the start of their season.

Fitzgerald joked that there was something about the pulpit about his speaking position, but there was more of the confessional box about the prepared remarks that followed as he outlined the sequence of events that followed the entire squad receiving a highly sensitive player review document by email in error.

There are two elements to consider for the province as they look to move on from the potentially damaging episode.

On the corporate side, the solicitors have been contacted and the Data Protection Commissioner's office informed. Munster are confident they have acted properly since the error was realised a week ago and are amending existing procedures to ensure such a mistake does not occur again.

Impact

It is in the dressing-room where the real impact will be felt as players must come to terms with the fact that their team-mates know just where they stand with the management, particularly those whose home truths were broadcast to their colleagues.

Fitzgerald accepted that some players would have been "upset" by the contents of the document, while Ian Keatley acknowledged that the breach of the coach-player relationship had been "annoying" for some.

Munster had hoped to promote the improvements they have made to their "customer experience" at Thomond Park yesterday, while Foley was understandably keen to discuss his first game in charge against Edinburgh on Friday rather than a mini-crisis not of his making.

However, they knew better than to avoid the issue and instead presented a refreshingly up-front approach to the controversy. Certainly, the coach received the backing of his out-half, who said players have put the incident behind them. "It wasn't all that awkward," Keatley said of the atmosphere in the dressing-room.

"We were all a bit surprised when it first came out on the Wednesday night, but that night there was another email sent out.

"Axel (Foley) addressed it and said 'the email has been sent out and we apologise profusely, but if you want to come in and talk to me, I am not going to hold anything back and you can talk to me'. It was addressed very well.

"Of course when you first see it in writing, you are (taken aback) but, in fairness, you kind of know yourself what your attributes are, what you contribute to the squad.

"It is kind of different when you see it in writing. Usually these reviews are done individually, so you find out about your information yourself and nobody else hears about it.

"I think that part of the. . . probably the annoying thing about it was that everyone saw it.

"It was an honest mistake. It could have happened to anyone. They have apologised and there is nothing much more they can do about it so it is fine."

Whether the private discussions matched the public face remains to be seen, but Foley did manage to get a win out of his players last Friday and while he insisted he had not held clear-the-air talks, he hopes the issue has been put to bed.

For the time being, his focus is on the present and Edinburgh. New signing Robin Copeland is a doubt, while there are problems at hooker with Mike Sherry, Damien Varley and Niall Scannell out as new signing Eusebio Guinazo awaits a work permit.

Simon Zebo, Andrew Conway and Keatley are back in the reckoning, but Luke O'Dea is another doubt, while Cian Bohane is awaiting results of a scan.

It is safe to say that this isn't the kind of story Foley wanted to be dealing with ahead of his season-opener, but he and the club managed to put a brave face on things yesterday.

The true test will be how the players respond on Friday as he gets his coaching career up and running.

Irish Independent
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/united-front-for-munster-after-email-controversy-30557330.html#sthash.6fIYQlaY.dpuf